Hostage Was Working in Iraq to Aid His Struggling Family [NYT... very sad]

http://xrl.us/bvpu

Hostage Was Working in Iraq to Aid His Struggling Family


By PAUL von ZIELBAUER

Published: April 12, 2004



Thomas Hamill, a struggling Mississippi dairy farmer, went to Iraq in September to make serious money and to put his family, at long last, back on solid financial footing.

With no news from the Iraqi insurgents who abducted Mr. Hamill on Friday and threatened to kill him, his family and friends were hoping yesterday that he would simply make it home alive.

<snip>

Mr. Hamill did not want to leave his family for a one-year hitch driving fuel trucks in Iraq, his family and friends said on Sunday. But he thought the job offered his wife, Kellie, who is recovering from heart surgery, and their two children the best chance of climbing out of what had become a burdensome debt.

Not long before he signed on with Halliburton last fall, Mr. Hamill sold his last few dozen cows, ending a family-owned dairy that his father and uncle started more than 30 years ago, Mrs. Hamill said. The sale did not quite cover his debts.

<snip>

He lived in a small Southern town, and probably couldn't find a job other than this. He may well die for it.

All because we seem to have forgotten how to make jobs for people in America.

This one epitomizes the New Bush Economy...need to support your family, spend some time in BFEE hell for big bucks.

I wonder how many of those new jobs Bush is creating are with Halliburton working in Iraq?

was doing more hiring than any other Texas company. Something like 500 people per day. Sickening.

.. often the knee-jerk reaction of many people is to say.. "oh, another Halliburton mercenary". Each one of these people is real person, someone with family that loves them, and counts on them to return. I hope this turns out well.. What a tragic indictment of Bush's America...

I hope this story will cause people to think before they rejoice in the demise of others. No one deserves what is happening right now. My heart truly goes out to his family.

He knew the risks of being a mercenary. Lot's of people are having a rough time right now, it doesn't excuse helping an illegal war.

I know that sounds cruel, but it's also the truth.

I believe he was a truck driver. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you're not a soldier or a charity-worker and you're getting paid to work in a war zone: You are a mercenary.

Just because you don't shoot bullets doesn't mean you have a right to profit from an illegal invasion.

If Iraq had invaded the U.S., Iraqi "truck-drivers" would be legitimate targets.

And currently in Iraq, with the Occupation overseeing US-funded humanitarian assistance, even that line has been blurred.

So he is a mercenary.

feelings to his wife and two kids.

And I hope you'll understand why I feel the way I do.

...you use something from real life. Have you ever been exposed to real life at all? If you had been, perhaps I would be more willing to understand whatever it is you believe to be your point of view.

And you swallowed the propaganda without question? Have you considered that he might have been up to more than the press says he was? Have you considered that you might be being played? Is this guy the Bush administration's "shoemaker"? Have you seen "Wag the Dog"?

I'm not saying for sure that it is, but I'm amazed at your willingness to believe the press while sporting a moniker like yours.

And I'm amazed at some of the individuals that post on this board and then continue to claim to be Democrats.

Then again, it seems like you could easily be part of the group that consists of Zell Miller, Joe Biden, Bob Kerrey, and Joe Lieberman.

If you knew me you would not make yourself look so foolish.

...that's not my problem, that's yours.

..."condescending".

Then look in a mirror.

but I'm also right.

you're only proving it in a way which should be embarrasing to yourself.

Don't listen to these people - what they say is often not rational, yet your comments are clearly measured and without malice, as are mine.

Don't let them scapegoat you into conceding that which is not true.

...aren't we?

You state on the one hand that "what they say is often not rational", and then try to say that your comments are "without malice". Which is it...you can't have it both ways, can you?

Sounds to me like you're using the old "everyone is crazy but me" line of discussion.

And you don't even see it.

It is almost farcial and funny and sad.

I believe tha analogy is a perfect fit.

It was a choice. A bad choice. Hell of a price to pay for not choosing wisely.

I still feel sorry for the individual no longer able to collect his blood money, tho.

It is a shame what bushco has put us all thru.]

And there is the root of our problem.

The root cause of all of this is bushco.

I hope his kharmic dues is paid over and over.

May he & the animals who spawned him rot in hell for eternity.

Now that Rummy has decided 20,000 soldiers will not be coming home?
Strange isn't it that the estimate of "security personnal" in Iraq is between 15,000 to 20,000. Now that it is not safe enough for the private companies, they're cut and runnin. Who's taking their place?

Dear Mrs. Hamill,

I'm sorry that your husband got captured while trying to make money from an illegal war. While war-profiteering is a great job for the upper-classes, who don't have to be near any fighting, it is usually not healthy for the working poor.

I hope your husband comes back alive.

Sincerely,

Brainshrub

"I was just doing my job" just doesn't cut it as an excuse to aid & abeit an immoral military action.

...ordinary bills, much less the medical bills from his wife's heart surgery. That's probably why he made the choice to earn quite a bit of money for one year in Iraq as a truck driver.

You may discover one day that life is not all black and white...that it is instead a wide range of different shades of gray.

Yes, the war in Iraq is illegal and immoral, but the decision made by the unemployed dairy farmer to provide for his family the best way he knew how was neither illegal nor immoral.

If I'm poor, does that give me the right to help someone break into your home?

This is a very black-and-white issue: A man decided to make fast money helping an illegal & immoral action.

This gets no sympathy from me. People who are "just doing their jobs" are the ones who perpetuate most of the evil in this world.

...debts, including the medical bill for his wife's heart surgery. He saw nothing immoral and/or illegal in driving a truck delivering supplies in Iraq. I also doubt that he sees what he is doing as aiding and abetting the overall U. S. military action in Iraq. I don't think there are many people, other than a couple of posters like yourself, that would believe otherwise.

Unlike someone that would break into your home, steal your valuables, and possibly hurt you and your family, this guy is just trying to provide for his family in a noncombatant way.

That's for the true philosophers on the board.

That teacher whipped you for your own good. Your daddy kicked you for your own good. Your church banished you for your own good. Your God turned away from you for your own good. This war is for your own good. The war on drugs is to make us better. The embargo on Cuba is for its own good and for ours too. Nuclear weapons are made, tested and deployed for our own good. It's all so good it's evil.

that it sounds like your hatred for the BFEE is blinding you to simple compassion. I know if someone I loved was sick and in need of surgery, the last thing I would worry about was whether something was "illegal".

Seems to me you can't have it both ways. Which is it?

...and I can only hope that you're never faced with the kind of decision the dairy farmer had to make.

As to what I posted previously, here it is:

"Being unemployed in the United States doesn't allow one to pay the ordinary bills, much less the medical bills from his wife's heart surgery. That's probably why he made the choice to earn quite a bit of money for one year in Iraq as a truck driver.

You may discover one day that life is not all black and white...that it is instead a wide range of different shades of gray.

Yes, the war in Iraq is illegal and immoral, but the decision made by the unemployed dairy farmer to provide for his family the best way he knew how was neither illegal nor immoral."

As you can see, I stated in so many words that the war in Iraq is illegal and immoral. But please point out anything close to the following comment: "Working for illegal warmonger=heroic". Is there anything in my comments anywhere close to what you posted? Isn't your comment really a lie, or does it fall into the category of a half-truth?

I always find it humorous when folks like yourself get backed into a corner that you invaribly resort to lies and half-truths to attempt to prove your points.

The tactics of some folks sounds eerily like Bushco. Wid us or wid duh terrarists!

Just a side note: I live a few counties East of Hattiesburg in AL and I happen to know local farmers, volunteer fire fighters and some very poor, unskilled, not very well educated people just like this man. For people on a progressive board to say he deserves whatever happens to him is no different than someone saying poor blacks and Latinos who joined the Army because of their financial situation deserve whatever happens to them too. Why is it always down to hatred of white southerners? I guarantee if was a black farmer...all posts here would be in sympathy.

than the way I have been explaining it?








































http://www.bundesgrenzschutz.de/Orga/PWest/gsg9/index.php

It's very effective and I bet it turned a few people towards the truth.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

nice of you to notice.

over the past week or so.

That said, he is not one. He is a truck driver. Most likely ignorant of what's going on in the world (Miss. dairy farmer).

I feel deeply for him, and his family. When you see no way out, you make bad choices.

His children do not deserve what they have gotten in this life.

Should this story be true, this man saw the brass ring and jumped. I hate this war...it will bring pain to many more before it winds its way down.

A foreigner profiting from the misery of others. That's the way he is seeing by the Iraqis. This is why the UN and NATO will not work in Iraq. Nothing short of a total withdrawal of all US troops and personnel will do now.

This is a NY Times sob story written for propaganda purposes to elicit a sympathetic response from the readers. The last thing NY Times wants is for its readers to demand a US pull out of Iraq!

seems to be a guy who had to sell his dairy possibly because an "Agribusiness" made his dairy non competitive. It's very sad, and I hope he's released if he's what the media says he is.

He's another one of our "jobless" Americans being forced to look for work because "big business" doesn't give a damn about us, and he took the best paying job he could find out of Mississippi.

He was sporting a superior than thou attitude, sneering in repressed anger above a police style 'stash.

I find it hard to locate any sympathy for him. Maybe I'm jaded, but he got in bed with the devil and he's paying the price - same as a career criminal. He could have become rich like some of his buddies, and that was surely what he was going for when he agreed to do what he was doing but he got caught.

I'm sorry he made that choice, and I'd save him if I could, but don't anyone be looking for a tear on my face over him.

I saw him on TV too and he certainly wasn't sneering or have any superior attitude. If that's why you saw in him, then you truly are jaded. He was just a sad country boy, and now that I know his story, I can guarantee you he was thinking "what are my wife and kids going to do now".

Sometimes this board makes me just as sick as FR.

I see that never crossed your mind, but you can guarantee you know what he's thinking. Have you applied to be a moderator? Might be a fit for you.

...VERY different.

as the apes at FR. It seems that many of the utopians have never been in the real world.

My heart aches for his family. The term heartless pricks keeps running through my head and I can't believe I'm thinking that about fellow progressives.

You know the 20,000 soldiers that have to stay in Iraq now, that can't go home because Cheney's dip sht company thinks its too dangerous now to stay and are cutting and running. Funny how the estimates for private military "security personnal" is 15,000 to 20,000. Just the number of soldiers that can't come home now.

With me it's not an either you're with us or against us argument.

Incredible.

But I won't be working for an occupying force to get it... might as well commit suicide to solve my problems first.

And if that excuse flies with you, can I come and steal all your belongings when I need some cash? Would it be OK with you if I took a job driving the robbers car for them since I needed the cash?

Didn't think so. That excuse wouldn't hold water, would it? Sorry, no sympathy here.

...farmer and his family, you don't know what you would do. Based on how you've come across during this discussion I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you did kill yourself if you were in the dairy farmer's situation.

And what does all of the other gibberish in your post have to do with what we're discussing?

Would it be safe to say that you've decided that all of the American troops in Iraq that are struggling day-to-day to survive are not worthy of support either?

Would it also be safe to say that you believe that it's the soldiers' fault that they're in Iraq, and if they get killed it's their fault as opposed to the people that put them there in the first place?

Now he is paying the consequences.

There are plenty of ways to make money short of putting yourself inside a war zone.

At least the risk of being kidnapped is a bit lower.

He should have stayed at WalMart as a greeter.

Half the old people in my family work for them, in order to pay for their drugs, so they can live.

No this guy wanted more than just a JOb or a McJob

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Just like most of the army, he is part of the disenfranchised class of people who take positions like these out of poverty.

In fact, I see no one wishing any ill will towards him at all other than perhaps his captors. I certainly hold no ill will towards the poor man.

I'm just not willing to turn him into a martyr and an enduring symbol for "Operation Iraqi Freedom" when we know so little about him and the entire situation. I think there's a LOT more to this than we know now.

Sorry I cannot sympathize.

the working class who too often is the cannon fodder for wars of the rich. To the best of my knowledge he was not a hired security person but hired to drive a truck paying more money over there than what he could make in Mississippi that's for sure. He made a decision that some, by virtue of not being working class, never have to make; the decision to go to work in a war zone.

A couple of weeks ago NBC did a report on the number of people applying for jobs in Iraq because they cannot find jobs in the US (this was in Texas) and if they do find a job it does not offer insurance nor a living wage.

I have never had an extended period of unemployment but I do fear that. I also do not have any children. I cannot say what I would do if I had been unemployed for a long period of time and had kids to feed. Dare I say that if a job making six figures (at my current salary it would take me 3.5 years to earn six figures) was offered, I might have to give is serious thought.

Every job entails risk. Just look at the level of workplace violence in the US. Granted it isn't as violent as the storm unleashed by the US onto Iraq but there is violence in many American workplaces. When someone dies at work due to violence, do we say they deserved it?

I don't know if what the NYT reports is true. I will say that when I read it this morning I did think "oh it's Jessica Lynch all over again." If it comes out that this guy and his family allowed themselves to be used by the media and the administration for propaganidistic purposes it would alter my opinion of him and them.

if one that many people will not understand.

He made a decision that some, by virtue of not being working class, never have to make

Only someone who is from the working class can really understand why this guy did what he did. Only someone who has genuinely faced the prospect of having his or her family put out on the street, or who has had a sick family member and no insurance, can really understand it.

Others can only prattle about "free will," which is itself a comforting bourgeois illusion. For one's will to be free, one must have options, and a lack of options is one of the defining qualities of poverty.

I can remember times in my own childhood when my father was out of work for extended times. We feared losing our home, and came close a few times. My mother made our clothes, other than the ones people at church collected for us (imagine going to church in clothes that you had seen other kids wearing there not long before), and ate beans and cornbread twice a day. My dad took hard, dirty jobs at below minimum wage, since there was nothing else around, and even then we barely managed to hold on. He spent a lot of time lying awake at nights worrying about what would become of his wife and kids if he didn't get called back to the plant soon. I had all kinds of health problems, and since we did not have insurance, that meant my dad had to take on even more shitwork and pay the doctor a little bit every payday, just one more humiliation in the long series of them that makes up the daily life of the poor in this country.

If someone had offered him $600 a day to drive a truck in a combat zone then, I suspect he would have taken it.

Does this make him a freeper, a mercenary, etc? No, it makes him a desperate father and husband. But I honestly don't expect that to make sense to comfortable, pampered people who have not even the faintest idea of what it's like to be poor.

scared to death. :-(

Self-righteous, too. And not a little misinformed, since truckdrivers and mercenaries aren't the same thing.

As I said in another post, it's very easy for those of us who have never faced the possibility of our family's financial ruin to cluck our tongues and condemn this man's moral impurity in working for Halliburton. But when a person has been driven out of his job and is dealing with the very real possibility of his family ending up on the streets, he'll do what he has to do. And given how Halliburton is now preying on the unemployed with big talk of big money, it's not hard to see how a desperate man--or woman--could end up working for them.

Let's not forget who is ultimately to blame for this mess.

The article itself defined him as a mercenary.

The article's first sentence reads "Thomas Hamill, a struggling Mississippi dairy farmer, went to Iraq in September to make serious money". The first definition of mercenary is "One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling."(*)

He is a mercenary.

Now, having said that, yes, it is tragic that his family will likely have a transition in the head of household. He will die, his wife will be widowed, and their children fatherless. Very likely, they'll end up on government aid or the streets anyway.

Tragic, yes. Cruel, yes. It's war, and war is both tragic and cruel to both sides.

But, no one is to blame, no one's morality is slighted. It's an assortment of choices -- from the choices Bush made, to the choice the Iraqis made, to the choice he made -- that finds a terminus in tragedy.

(*) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mercenary

On edit:
Thanks QC -- I did use the adjective form, not nominal form. Definition updated.

You are conflating two different definitions of the same word to (try) to make your point. Specifically, you're trying to equate the definition of the adjectival form of the word with the commonly understood definition of the nominal form of the word.

See, I can be pedantic and irrevelant, too.

Straight enough for you?

Now that that's out of the way, I find your assertion that no one is to blame odd, considering how you clearly feel that Hamill is responsible for his fate. Do you not also think that Bush bears some responsibility for this war? Heaping all the contempt on an unemployed dairy farmer kinda misses the point.

If the formal rules had been followed, we would not have had this war in the first place. To your specific point of me "confusing" the adjective form with the nominal, I did not: I copied the wrong definition. I have updated my post.

Nonetheless, strictly speaking, he is a mercenary.

No one is to blame for the choices of others, and each of us is responsible for his (or her) own choices.

Bush bears responsibility for the choice he made, and he should be judged by the same laws that apply to us all: God, Nature, Code, and Circumstance.

This victim, this mercenary, was judged by the laws Circumstance, which is tragic. Bush should be judged as well, by any and all of the above four judges.

I'm willing to bet that real mercenaries would find that laughable to the extreme.

to your post.

...dairy farmer and the skills necessary to become a mercenary.

You can easily call this guy a contractor...he is being paid as part of a contract to haul supplies in Iraq.

But to call this dairy farmer a mercenary...one who is hired by an employer to engage in combat if needed...is a stretch beyond all rational thought.

... insomuch as the second definition of mercenary ("A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army") doesn't apply to him.

While I have been accused of being "pedantic," I should point out that this term "mercenary" does denote a contractor or a professional solider, but the connotation is only loosely applicable.

On edit:
Formatting and word choice.

... stories like this probably come to mind:

"Mercenaries take revenge and shoot hundreds of Iraqis"

"5000 Iraqis marched on a fort in Najaf on Sunday to protest the closing of a newspaper and the US arrest warrant on a cleric. Suddenly soldiers opened up killing 30 and wounding hundreds of women and children. It turns out these were fucking mercs from Blackwater Security."

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/04/285253.shtml


Was our victim, the ex-dairy farmer a mercenary in the sense of these security forces? No. Was he a mercenary in the formal sense, yes.

...although I have to admit being somewhat confused by the phrase "formal sense". What exactly is a mercenary in the "formal sense"?

A "mercenary" denotes:
(1) One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
(2) A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.

However, it connotes someone who will exercise any action, no matter how odious or egregious, to obtain financial wealth.

Note that mercenary, merchant, mercantile, and mercy all derive from the same Latin root for "reward."

By the first definition anyone who doesn't find any personal reward in their work is a mercenary - whether they work in Iraq or McDonalds. It's not a useful distinction to make and in light of the real controversy over contractors who are serving under arms in Iraq this little word game serves only to inflame the debate.

... because I can see legitimacy in the arguments from both sides of the floor. But let me extrapolate on the definition of mercenary as you present it -- if this truck driver could be defined as a mercenary, then how about the millions here at home who are, in some fashion, engaged (employed) in a business which in some way supports the war in Iraq? From producing munitions to uniforms to planes to software, from the guy working the oil rig to the farmer who raises the food which becomes MREs... where does one draw the line? For every broke dairy farmer from Mississippi who grabs a Halliburton job to get his family out of debt there are millions more of us right here at home who ARE contributing to this war in one way or another, and I'll bet there are plenty right here among us whose jobs intersect with the PNAC plans for world empire.

Further, every energy-selfish American has contributed to this pact we have made with the devil, from the yuppies driving their gas-hogging SUVs home to their McMansions to every American whose tax dollars get funneled into the Pentagon budget -- we are all complicit in this tragedy, even if we are so from the comfort of our easy chairs. Little wonder Bin Laden felt their were no civilians in this battle. This is NOT to say Bin Laden was right anymore than it is to say we are right in this damnable war. Yet to pretend that our hands -- all of us, as a society and many of us as individuals --are free of blood is disingenuous at the very least.

So here's a proposal... I suggest that everone here on DU who truly believes that any support at all of this war is evil, quit paying taxes right now. Quit your jobs, if they are in any way tied to support for the war in Iraq. Of course, either way you may go to jail or find yourself homeless, but otherwise you are a mercenary, either funding or benefitting from this war. If you cannot do this, then condemning men such as that farmer sounds an awful lot like hypocrisy.

...but if you are, I hope your post comes back to haunt you.

It will be because the battle was brought to me, not because I wanted to make money from it.

I'm sure the trucker was a good man, and I'm sorry for his family. But he knew the risks and decided to go for the cash.

Read my post #17.

I think he made a grave mistake taking a job working for an occupying power in a war zone after an illegal invasion. If he was truly just trying to make a buck for his poor family as the press would have us believe (this is the same propaganda pushing press that shill for Bush, remember), he could have made a lot better choices than going to Iraq for the big bucks.

What choices should I make to get the "Big Bucks"? I don't want to go to Iraq and I don't have a lot of qualifications... but according to you there are a lot of possibilities...

I'm broke and I'd LOVE to hear them...

Naked pictures on the internet! It'll be huge!

I am already the 'customer' in this pyramid scheme (why do you think I'm in debt? ;-)

But seriously... you did say there were a lot of opportunities out there... any serious answers???

not me.

But I still believe that anyone in America who works hard with a good idea can be rich. This is still the land of opportunity.

sounds vaguely familiar...

People get rich all over the world with their good ideas. The idea that it is somehow easier to "get rich" here is a myth.

Or just drive the mule-car/van. The pay's enormous and it also has the same moral connotations as working for Halliburton. And, as an added bonus, you also get to ruin innocent lives. A lot of poor inner city kids do just that.

Or, go back about 70-80 years - you could become a bootleger - make big bucks working for Al Capone. Many a desparate family man did just that, too. And many were "just driving trucks".

Of course, you could also get killed, or wind up in prison for life.

Same choices. Of course, my grandfathers, and many others, choose not to do such things, and eventually, things got better. There was plenty of suffering, but these men and many thousands like them choose not to contribute to a morally bankrupt and reprehensible venture.

You can feel sorry fot the poor slobs who did just that just the same. But it doesn't make their choices any more "innocent" or inevitable.

Blood money is just that - blood money - and these persons will always have the stain of assisting in an immoral, illegal and corrupt venture.

Maybe he could have paid off those bills as a WalMart greeter.

I think you're overestimating the strength of the Bush* economy.

If you truly could not think of a better choice than going to a war zone, I would truly feel sorry for you, however I just I don't believe that you can't think of anything better (since you cited one that is surely better than putting one's life in harms way at the most dangerous place in the world for a few dollars).

Is it really your position that a safe, steady job (or even unemployment) at home in the US is not a preferable choice to driving in a convoy of oil tankers in a war zone along with military personnel during an illegal invasion?

if something bad happens to you I will find it hard to sympathize. We all take risks, some for fun, stupidity and some to support our families.

At least a sense of reality is coming back to us all. Of course you wouldn't give a shit about me, especially if I conspired in an illegal war for profit and got caught - just like you don't really have any sympathy for the other guy who did it.

At least we agree on something now. I think the argument is over, and I hadn't even mentioned Hitler yet! :)

when it comes to things like the Iraq war. I don't know if this driver fits the dictionary definition of a mercenary, but he definitely was profiteering off of an immoral war.

:thumbsup: brainshrub.

I still don't know how the Bush fascists got away with paying these drivers so damn much money.

on the jobs board at my local unemployment office....you know his guy is just as fuck`d over as the iraqi guys..to bad they can`t see that.

The financially desperate working class of the U.S. is pitted against the working class of a third world nation (which I am sure most of the Iraqi resistance are), in order that the wealthy can steal their resources.

This is one reason why elites are anxious to prevent the development of social policies such as universal medicare and affordable student assistance and tuition. There are other reasons as well.

And it sum's up my attitude:

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/clerks5.html

Randal: So they build another Death Star, right?

Dante: Yeah.

Randal: Now the first one they built was completed and fully operational before the Rebels destroyed it.

Dante: Luke blew it up. Give credit where it's due.

Randal:And the second one was still being built when they blew it up.

Dante: Compliments of Lando Calrissian.

Randal: Something just never sat right with me the second time they destroyed it. I could never put my finger on it-something just wasn't right.

Dante: And you figured it out?

Randal: Well, the thing is, the first Death Star was manned by the Imperial army-storm troopers, dignitaries- the only people onboard were Imperials.

Dante: Basically.

Randal: So when they blew it up, no prob. Evil is punished.

Dante: And the second time around...?

Randal: The second time around, it wasn't even finished yet. They were still under construction.

Dante: So?

Randal: A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers.

Dante: Not just Imperials, is what you're getting at.

Randal: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms.

Dante: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction?

Randal: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. (notices Dante's confusion) All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.
(The Blue-Collar Man (Thomas Burke) joins them.)

Blue-Collar Man: Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?

Randal: The ending of Return of the Jedi.

Dante: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.

Blue-Collar Man: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... (digs into pocket and produces business card) Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.

Randal: Like when?

Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.

Dante: Whose house was it?

Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.

Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?

Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.

Dante: Based on personal politics.

Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.

Randal: No way!

Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.

I agree with both sides of the argument... but although this guy 'signed on'... I look at him as more of a galley slave. He probably only gets freakin' fox news in Mississippi... and when he finally got to Iraq and found out what reality was... I am sure he shit bricks. When I saw his face in the picture, he sure didn't look like the Blackwater guys. But there was an article yesterday saying that the contractors who want out have NO WAY to get back home.

Sure, he should have known better... but when you're in debt in the U.S., you're screwed... you are really looking for that one chance to come along and save you. We are news junkies who see all and know all. Most people do not have that luxury. I'm sure most people making the choice to go to Iraq have a hardluck story that they have to get out of...

I felt really bad for the japanese kids because I knew that they were just as ignorant about what was going to go down... and they were on a humanitarian mission. I feel bad for this guys family. And I sort of feel bad for him that he got suckered into this position.

BTW... I have no pity for the 'private security army' guys (ie Blackwater)

hang tough!
Humans will never be able to evolve unless we take responsibility for our own actions. No more "leaving it up to gawd", no more "yeah, but he's laughing all the way to the bank" crap. No more "I was only following orders".
How many of US would take that contractors job in Iraq? I'd rather go into manufacturing and flip burgers on two shifts.
You could NEVER pay me enough to work for the imperial forces in Iraq, or Columbia or Venezuela either.

Man, that's a great scene. I thought about checking out contracts in Iraq last year, since there's apparently a good amount of cash floating around, but the risks were simply too high. It's like robbing a bank - it might pay off, but don't complain if you get caught.

Morally, though, I can't really judge someone who's hit a rough patch for trying to make a buck working for the CPA. It sounds like this family needed the money pretty badly.

Next time some idiot repug starts dumping on universal healthcare, I'll tell him this guy's story.

If poverty is what drives people to support illegal war, invasions, and occupations.

The only problem is that it's a lousy argument. It doesn't hold water.

If poverty is what drives people to support illegal war, invasions, and occupations.

Poverty isn't the sole factor, but it's definitely a contributing one. From making a career in the military seem attractive to its usual corollary of a poor education, poverty is an important driver behind the rise of totalitarian regimes. That's one reason why the systematic destruction of the middle class by this country political elite strikes me as an almost conscious policy.

Remember, even Marx saw the lumpenproletariat as a reactionary, rather than a progressive element.

bm

...if I was the praying type, I'd pray for him & his family...

We are all a product of our environment. Yes, we have free will to overcome. But this social worker feels very bad about the situation we have created in this country where a person can go bankrupt over his health bills. That is why I am fighting for universal healthcare. This poor man had to choose between poverty/lack of health care for his family and working overseas. No matter what his political party, this is a sad reflection on our country.

from his wife's surgery. One of the un or under insured no doubt.

But they say "Hey, they knew there was a possibility they'd have to go to war and be killed when they enlisted..."

Something doesn't smell right about this...

Is the BFEE gonna hire Willie to write a song about "Good Ol' Shoe"..Uh, I mean "Poor Hard-Luck Tom..."

There's a REASON why "they's payin' GOOD money!" and it ain't because the roads are rough.

tax cuts for the rich, while the struggling workers turn in desperation to working in his bogus, costly, unnecessary fucking vendetta war. he's directly culpable for this man's situation. i fervently hope to someday see bush and every one of his cronies behind bars for life.

I agree with it entirely.

Saving my pity for these VICTIMS



and not for Bush-voting idiots.

Just gotta love the "conservative Dems" (not you because I do not know you) who would have us weeping for dead freepers.

There are a bunch of poor DUers, poor Liberals, some in debt up to their necks, who would not, NOT EVEN FOR A MILLION BILLION DOLLARS, head over there and HELP Bush.

Cry me a fucking river.

:nopity:

Saving me pity for the REAL innocents of this war!

...but not this one. You'll gain absolutely nothing by laying a bunch of crap on fellow DUers who are STILL capable of expressing sympathy for someone less fortunate than us.

Additionally, you have no idea what this guy's political beliefs are...what's with calling the guy a "freeper"?? How do YOU know how this guy voted? If he's a dairy farmer, he may very well have been a Democrat and hated the NeoCons...but he chose to put his family first by taking a job that would pay the bills.

Most folks in the dairy farmer's situation would not want to risk going to Iraq for any reason...but if the man loved his wife and family and thought this was his only option why are some of you so intent on berating him for that decision?

I'll tell you something else, pal...I have a daughter about the age of the child in your photograph. I grieve for that child and any other Iraqi that has been killed no less than I grieve for the Americans that have been killed in that hell-hole.

.. didn't we just have a thread here about being poor and needing health care. Do you think open heart surgery is cheap? I have been so poor before that anything was an option. I would not enlist, nor would I put myself in a position to harm others.. but I'm sure he felt that going over there was the only way to help his family. My husband would do anything to care for us, his family. There are things we have to do sometimes.. just to exist. He was not a mercenary, he was not a soldier, he was not enabling Bush... he was trying to save his family, and pay for his wife's surgery.

His kidnapping does not minimize the civilian deaths in Iraq, or the deaths in our military. But like the Iraqi girl, this man has a family that loves him, and an ailing wife that needs him home with her. Open your heart to everyone... and hope none of us ever feel so trapped financially that we will pay with our lives.

...by running them down or maybe he was full of glee to get over there and watch some "r-gheads" bleed.

I'm amazed at people assuming he was like the good fairy when he was more likely like a right wing nutcase. I'm not saying he was for sure, but since we don't know for sure, it boggles the mind to think why so many people are claiming he was/is a good soul, all the evidence to the contrary.

You wrote the following:

"it boggles the mind to think why so many people are claiming he was/is a good soul, all the evidence to the contrary."

To what "all evidence to the contrary" are you referring?

said so

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/12/national/12HOST.html?ex=1082347200&en=401bfe7b5d1ee7ad&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

which is to vote in politicians who represent YOU so that eventually YOU can get what you want as opposed to constantly voting for the lesser of 2 evils and ending up with no healthcare so that you have to go to Iraq and kill people or guard Bush's death convoys to survive.

A line must be drawn somewhere and I am sorry but Brown and Root employees have crossed mine. We all have a conscience and should be using it. If you can't use your conscience, do not come crying to me when karma catches up- go crying to God.

Everyone has a sob story. The German concentration guards had families to feed. Should I excuse them? The IDF soldiers shooting Palestinian 3 year olds have families to feed. Should we excuse them? Should we excuse the suicide bombers who take out an entire bus of innocents?

I say NO. I am tired, tired of excusing all of this.

There is NO excuse. No pity anymore.

...did they?

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4285-2004Apr11.html>

Excerpt:

"Hamill's captors threatened to kill him unless U.S. troops withdrew from the city of Fallujah, where U.S. commanders sought a cease-fire with insurgents over the weekend after a week of violence. Video footage of Hamill broadcast Saturday on the al-Jazeera satellite network included a voice-over by an announcer who quoted Hamill as saying he was being treated well."

...Al-Jazeera video in the article.

That would clearly indicate that the Al-Jazeera video pre-dated the NYT article.

...that the New York Times REFERENCED AL-JAZEERA'S VIDEO in their article as a SOURCE. That means Al-Jazeera's video was recorded BEFORE the NY Times wrote their article.

Yes, the NYT interviewed his family, but Al-Jazeera produced the first story on Hamill.

You are simply wrong on this point, and calling me obtuse will not aid in making your position correct.

Just admit your error and move on.

:)

but I lurk on other boards where Freepers talk of disrupting this board and my heart grows COLD and I mean COLD because I remember Selection 2000. I remember being one of the few NCOs in the military who did not vilify and ridicule Clinton.

Mt heart is growing cold, {b]cold, COLD with every innocent Iraqi death.

Screw, and I mean this sincerely, screw Hamill. That could be one of the soldiers I once knew, one of the officers I served with and I would not care. It is HIGH TIME Americans started thinking about the repurcussions of our acts.

I will not fall for this Fox-like news sob story deliberately calculated to have us grieving for mercenaries and hating the Iraqis who could do such a horrible thing to such a 'brave soul'.

This is half the problem with our country. Death by the installment plan. We are not the Joneses, we are not the Forbes, yet we want aspire to some facsimile of living like them.

I am sorry. I have no pity anymore. We are reaping what we sow. You. I. And Hamill.

I can have no pity for those who think it is ok to go exploit, rape & loot a country because they are looking for an easier way out. The rest of the world is under absolutely no obligation to subsidize us and our way of life.

I can't condone, excuse or weep for this. Sorry.

Had I, when I retired gotten out of the Military and joined one of those rotten corps like Brown and Root (& we ALL knew what they were & did), and you were to see my tear soaked face on Al-Jazeera, I would NOT want you to feel any pity for me. Not one bit.

We are, in life, nothing but the sum of our choices.

I feel horrible for the soldiers over there but the mercenaries... sorry, I have no pity left to spare.

...hatred to overpower your ability to collect and understand factual details.

Here is your latest comment about Hamill:

"Screw, and I mean this sincerely, screw Hamill. That could be one of the soldiers I once knew, one of the officers I served with and I would not care. It is HIGH TIME Americans started thinking about the repurcussions of our acts."

Hamill was NEVER in the military. From the link below:

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4285-2004Apr11.html>

Excerpt:

"Grandmother Vera Hamill said in a telephone interview yesterday from the family's home town of Macon, Miss., 'He used to drive a milk truck and he had a dairy, and it wasn't paying off,' said Hamill, 92. 'He's got a family to support and he wanted to help them people, too. . . . Jobs was kind of scarce, and he has two children in school. It's hard, you know?'"

And from this article:

<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/12/national/12HOST.html?ex=1082347200&en=401bfe7b5d1ee7ad&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE>

"Not long before he signed on with Halliburton last fall, Mr. Hamill sold his last few dozen cows, ending a family-owned dairy that his father and uncle started more than 30 years ago, Mrs. Hamill said. The sale did not quite cover his debts."

...and....

"Before he decided to head to Iraq, Mr. Hamill had been working two jobs, milking his cows one day, driving a milk truck the next day on a route connecting Noxubee County's other dairy operations, friends said. But it was not quite enough."

Cry me a fucking river.

No pity. You hear that? NO FUCKING PITY! Hermann Goehring and the Nazi prison guards had families to feed also. I shall not waste a single tear on those people. Any friend I ever had, any person I ever served with, who has sold their soul to the devil without reading the fine print... sorry... NO PITY!

I suppose that next, I should feel sorry for all the rednecks Baker bussed in to stop the recount because they too had families to feed?

I have no tolerance for all these Fox-news calculated to rouse middle-America stories.

Screw Bush, screw those stories and screw their poster boys.

Do you know how many $9/hr soldiers are missing? Ever hear about them? Ever read any sob stories about how they were trying to pay off their mother's open heart surgery? No and you won't. But right now we need to whip up sympathy for Brown & Root/Halliburton/Vinell/Blackwater mercenaries so that we can justify to coming horrors in Lidice Fallujah.

Sorry. No pity. I can't spare it anymore.

I see you feel very strongly about this my friend. While I do not agree with the sentiment, I understand and support your right to voice your feelings. :hug:

But what kills me is that we always find a way to play on people's sentiments to, against their best judgement and good hearts, support evil. I am so tired of the media playing us like violins. So tired of the Church ladies righteously declaring that those Godless Iraqi savages deserve what's coming to them because their delicate feelings were offended by the sight of 4 mercenaries being dismembered and dishonored.

Here is what is being dishonored in Iraq (and Haiti, and Colombia, and Rwanda, and, and, and...)



I can't let the media draw me into the "tit for tat" justification of what's going on.

Brown & Root. Halliburton. Dick Cheney. How much more pity do they want us to dredge up? Pretty soon the corporate media will want us to feel sorry for Bush because he is a simlpe sort of fellow living on a simple ranch and has a family to feed.

I feel sorry for the soldiers, most of whom are confused and scared, never thinking they were ever going to see real, non-Nintendo combat.

$80,000 tax-free to drive a fuel truck in Iraq for one year
http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=1779411

Would you have done it? Would you have accepted $80,00 tax-free a year or would you have fought more to make America a better place where our health-needs are met?

I can pity the Iraqis, pity the soldiers who were sent (giving them the generous benefit of the doubt that they are being used against their will. But pity the civilians working for the same evil corporations which push for this war. I can't. Not anymore. Not after seeing pictures like this



The Germans, I assure you, had heart-wrenching stories about how they couldn't pay their bills or buy food because Jewish Banks had destroyed their currency so they went on a sick rampage too. We don't excuse them... When do we start not excusing these people?

In life, you are nothing more than the sum of your choices. When do we start holding people accountable for their choices?

I don't hate this man. I have more pity for him than I do for the Fab Four who were dismembered in Fallujah (provided the info about him is true) but with so much pity to hand out, he has to go to the end of the line.

Oil theft. How can we condone that?

If you think about it in the grand scheme of things... Bush has a nation to feed, a nation thirsty for oil. Where do we draw the line?

Sorry for being so angry & thank you for being here.

So much, too much. I can say that I essentially agree with all of what you have said. I share your anger and frustration, sincerely. I am at once sickened, ashamed, horrified and furious. It's...taxing. Alas, tommorrow is another day, and the fight carries on. Stay strong, my friend.

Just a truck driver that's what I've been told.

Where's the sympathy for the guys down in Columbia? But that's not the illegal war that's fashionable right now.

U.S. adds to military presence in Colombia
Leftist rebels admit holding three Americans
Saturday, February 22, 2003 Posted: 10:17 PM EST (0317 GMT)



The bodies of two passengers were found shot near the wreckage of their crashed plane.

CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- A senior Bush administration official told CNN on Saturday that additional U.S. military personnel have been dispatched to Colombia, where leftist rebels have acknowledged holding three Americans captive.


Colombia's largest rebel group has said the lives of the three U.S. citizens are at risk if the government does not halt military operations in rebel-held territory.

In a communiqué posted Saturday on its Web site, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia -- known by its Spanish acronym, FARC -- acknowledged for the first time that it had captured three Americans who survived a plane crash February 13 in rebel-held territory.

The rebels also claimed responsibility for shooting down the plane, which they said had been on a mission to spy on them. Colombian and U.S. military forces have blamed the crash on mechanical problems.

"We can only guarantee the life and physical integrity of the three official gringos in our power if the Colombian military immediately suspends military operations and overflights in the area," said the communiqué, which was datelined "The mountains of Colombia, February 21."

The State Department refused to comment on the FARC announcement and repeated previous statements holding the FARC "responsible for the safety, health and well-being" of the Americans.

The United States "demands their safe release," a State Department official said.

The State Department official said the United States has "not authorized any group to negotiate" with FARC for the hostages' release.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:nM4LQCfeQ9oJ:www.cnn.com/2003/WOR...

The guy's life was shitty... he was desperate for a way out. Fox news told him the fire was goooooooood. "Fire is your friend. It loves you." He jumped in.

When your life is in the shitter, sometimes you don't have the luxury of being philosophical or informed.

Generally, I am inclined to take your attitude...

I think that the army should just go on strike and start doing combat refusals... that would finish this thing up pretty quickly. How long until the combat refusals start? Only insurrection on the part of the army is going to end this thing.

I feel more for the Iraqis... however, I think I have enough mercy and empathy to realize some of our guys made some really shitty decisions because they were desperate.

"I think that the army should just go on strike and start doing combat refusals"

That would be an interesting event. I won't advocate that myself, though, as Guantanamo isn't my idea of a Cuban Acapulco, but I do think that if that happened, it would be the end of the "war".

Fraggings and Combat Refusals. It wasn't the peace movement that ended the war, it was the fighting men.

The army was at war with itself by 1969... and very slowly imploding.

Too bad these guys just don't get their heads together now... instead of waiting for months and months more shit to go down. They will get to the breaking point eventually. Some of the stories coming out about the hostility and questioning of purpose show that we are on the road.

If I knew any service men, I would be buzzing the words 'combat refusals' into their ears. If you look at Viet Nam, they generally didn't suffer any consequences... why not? Imagine the press! One unit even managed to chalk up 30+ combat refusals in less than a year.

That means I must be in despair, but if it happened in Vietnam, it can happen today, so.....

and he gets back home.

I''m surprised to see such callous remarks on this board.

Save the anger for Bush and his rethug government.

I see no one here advocating any harm at all to the poor sod.

What about the hundreds of innocent, already dead Iraqis who were massacred in Falluja to avenge the murder of 4 American mercenaries? The people of Falluja are all poor, sanctioned into oblivion families who have seen their grandparents, husbands, wives, and children butchered in the name of a phony American justice.

They didn't start this war. We did.

:thumbsup:

Jax

...If so, point it out.

have the compassion to feel for ALL the victims. A victim including someone who had a sick wife and was in dire financial straits and had to take a dangerous job in another country because the economy of their own was so wrecked.

I feel for all of them, they're all victims.

it's not right

Guess you've never been through bad times. Good for you. Until you have, you should probably shut the fuck up.

using this to cleave the Americans. I feel terrible for the guy. He has a tough luck story many of us can relate to. I fear that there will be lots more of these stories, too.

Was he moving gas for electrical generation or tanks? I suspect that many, formerly Army jobs, have been outsourced to private contractors. Was he trained for this? Did he understand the risks? If I was an Iraqi, would I make the distinction?

Clearly, the fault for the man's plight rests solely with Bush. His domestic fiscal policies and bloodlust for war have conspired to create this guy's hell.

that we have our own freepers on our side.

Cheney and co have no problem using down and out lower income people to make their billions for them.
I don't care how broke you are.
Going to Iraq to work for Cheney's company who's sole purpose in being there is to steal oil is pretty stupid if you have loved ones at home,

These insurgents as they are called are actually RESISTANCE.
And they are resisting not only the military occupation but the pillage of their oil reserves.
To participate on either side can be deadly.
No video game.
These Iraqi folks are truly pissed more than anyone could ever imagine. More than Mad Max--they'll get their attackers any way they can.

Remember from history class, here the colonists who declared independence from England didn't fight fair.
I wouldn't expect any colony or occupied territory to fight fair.
Hostages, sabotage, guerrilla tacticts--it's all they've got.

Hope the truck driver lives !!

God I hope he can get a real job instead of wearing a target..

Just to get to know who these guys are. Maybe some poor souls were duped into working for them, didn't realize what they were getting into. Needed the money, what segment of US population needs financial aid more than senior citizens, are they expected to sign up to so they can pay their medical bills?

"I too spent time in Iraq with Custer Battles. They are a frauduently company. Trust me, they are worried about $$ first and the employee/ bodies last. They will breach anyones contract, then screw them all the way home. Also don't trust there K9 division, there dogs are suppose to be BOMB dogs, I won't bet my life on the dogs finding anything. Also is a liar." (January 8, 2004)
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Custer_Battles

A new monster has emerged from the depths of private security firms
operating in IRaq. Custer Battles LLC, the new company that took over
security at the Baghdad Airport. The on-site management team is made up of
a bunch of former "army ranger" types that must have a real "treat" to work
for in the military. They could care less about the health or safety of
thier own staff never mind that of the innocent civilians working in and
around the airport. They promote a type of security that well crosses the
borders of decent treatment and humanitarian treatment. Constantly yelling
at thier own staff to "take no shit" , point weapons at innocent/unarmed
civilians, and "suck it up" when they have a complaint... they present as no
company that is certainly going to help with the problem of how Americans
are percieved in the area. Pointing weapons and threatening thier own staff
with being "escorted" to the propertly line and forceing those that wish to
quite or be fired to make thier take an "unarmed" ride without
communications through the country to get out.

They have hired 50 or so Ghurkas from Nepal to support the operation... but
pay them less than 1/4 of what most of the other staff gets. Forced to eat
Iraqi food without proper cooking and storing has made many of them sick...
and the management could care less. When faced with questions, they simply
place you in truck and send you unarmed and without communications to
Amman... where you have to find your own way home basically.

They have purchases thier own plane (the management) but still do not
properly equip thier own staff. They are forced to patrol the area in
sub-standard vehicles that creat yet another dangerous situation. These
vehicles are not robust enough to withstand a blowout never mind any other
attacks. With the 4 cylinder P/Us, the officers are not able to get out of
thier own way, never mind escape an attack or dangerous situation.

I encourage you to look into this type of activity and wast of our money in
Iraq.

http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2003w33/msg00065.htm

Topic Page: 1 2 of 2
Kevwhite


USA
2 Posts
Posted - 09/22/2003 : 12:36:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a warning to anyone considering a contract with Custer Battles LLC, of Fairfax,VA, the company currently awarded the contract to provide security at Baghdad International Airport. I was with them for the first month. The company repeatedly demonstrated signs of serious cash flow problems that effected their ability meet payrolls, both within country and also for all the Americans expecting direct deposits back home. We were all shorted on our first pay, at the end of July, and the promise to make up the difference by Aug 5 was not met. At that time the excuse was that it was easier to pay us the back wages along with our normal pay at the end of Aug. However, at least in my case, the Aug pay was also substantially light. As I had returned to the states due to a death in my family, and being owed nearly $2000, I opted to not return. There are also a number of issues, such as health and welfare concerns and generally poor management, that contributed to my decision. A number of other well qualified professionals have also left them. If you are a true professional you will not like working for them and you will not want your name associated with them.

tthrasher


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 11/13/2003 : 19:40:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Could you email me with more info? I was planning on sending them my resume.


togeoff


United Kingdom
46 Posts
Posted - 11/17/2003 : 11:32:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevwhite

Just a warning ..with them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I wouldn't mind more information myself - I too was looking at what they were offering.

Geoff H


RangerinIraq


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 07:27:24
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been with Custer Battles since they started here in Iraq in July. After my time in the Army, this has been the most rewarding experience I've had. Custer Battles has been good to me, and while they have definitely experienced growing pains, they take care of their people more than any company I know. The owners spend most of their time here, and they handle issues fairly and honorably.

I also know the guy who posted this note. He left the company after they paid $3000 up front to fly him home for a family emergency and he repays them by posting crap like this.

All I know is that I enjoy what I do and I'd recommend Custer Battles to anyone. They're definitely hiring and expanding; send em your resume.




t


1 Posts
Posted - 12/22/2003 : 17:34:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.


alan_w


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 12/26/2003 : 09:42:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More info please. Been offered a contract.


divdoc


USA
3 Posts
Posted - 12/28/2003 : 01:14:18
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kevwhite

Just a warning to anyone considering a contract with Custer Battles LLC, of Fairfax,VA, the company currently awarded the contract to provide security at Baghdad International Airport. I was with them for the first month. The company repeatedly demonstrated signs of serious cash flow problems that effected their ability meet payrolls, both within country and also for all the Americans expecting direct deposits back home. We were all shorted on our first pay, at the end of July, and the promise to make up the difference by Aug 5 was not met. At that time the excuse was that it was easier to pay us the back wages along with our normal pay at the end of Aug. However, at least in my case, the Aug pay was also substantially light. As I had returned to the states due to a death in my family, and being owed nearly $2000, I opted to not return. There are also a number of issues, such as health and welfare concerns and generally poor management, that contributed to my decision. A number of other well qualified professionals have also left them. If you are a true professional you will not like working for them and you will not want your name associated with them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks for the heads-up. I work for ITT/Group4 in Bosnia. The same advice and avoidance should be applied.


custerbattlesisajoke


2 Posts
Posted - 01/08/2004 : 19:43:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I too spent time in Iraq with Custer Battles. They are a frauduently company. Trust me, they are worried about $$ first and the employee/ bodies last. They will breach anyones contract, then screw them all the way home.

Also don't trust there K9 division, there dogs are suppose to be BOMB dogs, I won't bet my life on the dogs finding anything. Also Jerry Johnson is a liar.




lawdoggs86


USA
3 Posts
Posted - 02/06/2004 : 00:56:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you work for a Defense Contractor in Iraq or elswhere?

Have you been mistreated, abused, injured on the job?

Send your e-mail, (names are not necessary) and a short description of your situation to: lawdoggs86@yahoo.com

We are preparing lists of personnel to mount mass torts, (class action lawsuits) against the various contracting organizations that have abused, mistreated and otherwise maligned security and other contracting professionals in this, our nation's time of crisis.

While our soldiers die in Iraq everyday, these companies only talk about greed, greed, greed.

Information will be sent to you about the various attournies and other legal organizations you can contact to put a stop to these insidious abuses.

lawdoggs86@yahoo.com


csdickey


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 02/09/2004 : 04:36:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by t

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.

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Enzo


Germany
5 Posts
Posted - 02/10/2004 : 08:09:53
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quote:
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Originally posted by csdickey


quote:
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Originally posted by t

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.

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Has someone any adresses from serious companies,maybe UXO-related,in the area?
Thank´s,Enzo

SL


lawdoggs86


USA
3 Posts
Posted - 02/12/2004 : 13:05:15
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Do you work for a Defense Contractor in Iraq or elswhere?

Have you been mistreated, abused, injured on the job?

Send your e-mail, (names are not necessary) and a short description of your situation to: lawdoggs86@yahoo.com

Also, if you know of other message boards, send that information as well. We will band together a network to stop these people from their sick and disgusting practices which are ruining our lives and costing our noble troops their's.

Whether you work for: Brown & Root/Haliburton

DynCorp

Custer Battles

ITT

or other corrupt contracting organization, you need to take a stand.

Don't be fooled. These people have strong lobbies in Washington and deep pockets filled, not only with tax payers fraudulently acquired dollars, but politicians and high ranking military officials as well.

This is not a joke. If we don't start standing up to these filthy thieves, nobody will.

I did not serve my country to let that happen. Nor, I believe, did you.

start here: http://www.alexanderlaw.com/

all information is strictly confidential.

We are preparing lists of personnel to mount mass torts, (class action lawsuits) against the various contracting organizations that have abused, mistreated and otherwise maligned security and other contracting professionals in this, our nation's time of crisis.

While our soldiers die in Iraq everyday, these companies only talk about greed, greed, greed.

Information will be sent to you about the various attornies and other legal organizations you can contact to put a stop to these insidious abuses.

lawdoggs86@yahoo.com


custerbattlesisajoke


2 Posts
Posted - 02/13/2004 : 16:59:42
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At least we weren't the only ones with out body armour. Guns with 2 or 3 bullets. Custer Battles, needs to be investigated for Fraud! At least I am home, I have heard othe horror stories of the way they treat there people.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by csdickey


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by t

reference custer battles,please stay clear,they are dangerous,i have just left them,they left us without body armour,ammo and weapons,we had to buy all our own equipment and scrounge it from other good companies and the military,then we were told to arrange our own transport home on leave,it was unbelievable,when these points were brought up we were ignored at all levels,from washinton to bagdad.they had in place teams of psd's from the usa who then left,then they had teams of psd's from france who then left,then they had teams of psd's from the uk who then left,does this not speak volumes.custer battles are only in it to gain as much cash as possable they definetely should not get the contract renewed in march they are dredfull in the way they conduct thier buisness,ps.to the previous "ranger" im glad you are happy mate but they are not anywhere as good as you make out,please do your research to find out whether what i have said is fact or fiction,yours T.

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Duke


1 Posts
Posted - 03/05/2004 : 18:48:48
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I would like some additional info too - like tthrasher, I am/was considering some work for them...would like to hear more about what they are not doing well...

Thanks

D


ScottK


USA
4 Posts
Posted - 03/13/2004 : 13:44:33
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Any updates on this company? Email me if you don't want to post.


susanskate


USA
1 Posts
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 14:07:09
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Hello,
I am a foreign correspondent for a major U.S. newspaper working on stories about problems with subcontractors in Iraq - if you have specific examples of any problems, or have worked for a subcontractor I would like to hear from you!




Posted - 04/09/2004 : 20:01:12
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I am a journalist for a UK paper reporting a story about a Custer Battles employee killed this week in an ambush near Hit.
Would any Custer employees with relevant information please email me asap.


Temps From Texas
Half a world away, another group of unemployed workers can be found at recruiting sessions in Houston. The company has been posting flyers at truck stops and posting advertisements on the internet. Four out of five of the recruits who are invited to training sessions who worked at a now defunct JC Penny store will be sent to Iraq. Halliburton sends an average of 500 recruits a week.

These men are not skilled. "They are unemployed and underemployed workers with few jobs in a U.S. economy that isn't producing many jobs," writes Russell Gold, a Wall Street Journal reporter. Gold interviewed men lining up for the training sessions, citing the example of one typical applicant whose previous job was transporting chickens for $12 an hour.

But when they arrive in Iraq, their navy blue American passports earn them a tidy sum of money: between $7,000 and $8,000 a month, generous sums, even by American standards. CorpWatch asked company spokesperson Norcross why there is such a huge disparity based on nationality in the wages Halliburton pays in Iraq.

"We will not discuss our specific wage structures. Our compensation packages and the compensation packages provided by our subcontractors are based on a wage scale that was recommended by the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq, and are competitive in terms of the local market," she wrote back.

When I posed the same question to Army spokesperson Dowling, we got a more revealing answer.

"These workers consider themselves fortunate to have jobs even if it means them traveling somewhere else. There is an army of companies that move from conflict to conflict with experience in setting up chow halls from an empty field to a 1,000 army camp in a matter of days. It's not an easy job and these guys are good at it. They bring their own people with them - people with experience in other military locations," Dowling explained.

"The (salary) decision is not based on the value of his life but on the cost of training and equipping the workforce. Nor would it be right for the US Army to enforce US based salaries where no one else could match it. Life sometimes isn't fair," he concluded.

I'm sure Al Rasheed waiters Muzaffar, Shahnawaz and Ali would agree.

http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=9928

Get to know Halliburton


During 2002 the Securities and Exchange Commission undertook an investigation of Halliburton's accounting practices, relating to events in 1998, which has not been completed.

Halliburton's "current contract in Kuwait began in September 2002 when Joyce Taylor of the U.S. Army Materiel Command's Program Management Office, arrived to supervise approximately 1,800 Brown and Root employees to set up tent cities that would provide accommodation for tens of thousands of soldiers and officials."<8>

The Center for Cooperative Research says "Manipulating U.S. foreign policy isn¹t the only strategy in Halliburton¹s repertoire of means to securing profits. Another method that has apparently proven extremely successful is doing business with the government and bidding on contracts financed by U.S. dominated bilateral and multilateral aid agencies. Although Dick Cheney had once lashed out at Joseph I. Lieberman saying that his success at Halliburton 'had absolutely nothing to do with' the government, the real facts have shown otherwise." Cooperative Research calls this practice corporate welfare. The organization gives a detailed listing of Halliburton's business dealings in this regard.


http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Halliburton

COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
Fifty-fifth session
Item 5 of the provisional agenda




THE RIGHT OF PEOPLES TO SELF-DETERMINATION AND ITS
APPLICATION TO PEOPLES UNDER COLONIAL OR ALIEN
DOMINATION OR FOREIGN OCCUPATION


Report on the question of the use of mercenaries as a means of
violating human rights and impeding the exercise of the
right of peoples to self-determination, submitted by
Mr. Enrique Bernales Ballesteros (Peru), Special Rapporteur
pursuant to Commission resolution 1998/6


http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/%28Symbol%29/E.CN.4.1999.11.En?Opendocument


REGULATING THE NEW PRIVATEERS: PRIVATE MILITARY SERVICE CONTRACTING AND THE MODERN MARQUE AND REPRISAL CLAUSE
Matt Gaul
http://faculty.lls.edu/~manheimk/ns/gaul2.htm

INTERNATIONAL -- INT'L COVER STORY

Outsourcing War
An inside look at Brown & Root, the kingpin of America's new military-industrial complex

Early on the morning of Aug. 5, a U.S. mail convoy pulled out of the airport in Baghdad and headed north. A U.S. Army Humvee bristling with weaponry led the way, followed by three heavily loaded trucks, each driven by a civilian employee of Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR). A second military Humvee brought up the rear. Near Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown, a bomb detonated under one of the trucks. The military police pried its driver, Fred Bryant Jr., from the wreckage and raced him to a military field hospital. Bryant, 39, died en route, the first KBR combat casualty since the Texas contractor was founded in 1919.

Bryant's death underscores the U.S. military's heavy reliance on private military companies, or PMCs, to wage war in Iraq. By most estimates, civilian contractors are handling as much as 20% to 30% of essential military support services in Iraq. Scores of PMCs are active all across the country, but KBR in particular has become indispensable to the global projection of American military might in this unsettled age. "It is no exaggeration to say that wherever the U.S. military goes, so goes Brown & Root," says P.W. Singer, a Brookings Institution fellow and author of Corporate Warriors. Widely known as Brown & Root, KBR is a unit of oil-services giant Halliburton Co. (HAL ) -- Dick Cheney's old company.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_37/b3849012.htm

just don't have that extra cash laying around to pay for life saving medication? Join today see the world. Beautiful Iraq! Must be able to lift heavy weapons.

Halliburton


disclaimer
not responsible for reporting deaths or injuries to US government, not covered by Geneva Conventions.



In one moment in time, our Service members will be feeding and clothing displaced refugees - providing humamitarian assistance. In the next moment, they will be holding two warring tribes apart - comducting peacekeeping operations. Finally, they will be fighting a highly lethal mid-intensity battle. All in the same day, all within three city blocks. It will be what we call the three block war.

General Charles C. Krulak, 31st Commandant, USMC Halliburton

He knew what he was getting into

Another illegal war - more hostages



CBS) At this moment, three Americans are being held hostage under heavy guard in the jungles of Colombia, hoping for a miracle.

Their story is probably one you don't know much about. But after hearing from them, it is one you will never forget.

They are hostages of a narco-terrorist group known as FARC, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia -- guerrillas with a violent history and a penchant for holding kidnap victims for years, and then, often, killing them.

The Americans fell into the group's hands when their plane crashed in the jungle more than eight months ago. The families of the hostages say the men they love have been forgotten.

They hope that will change tonight, because of what you are about to see and hear from the hostages themselves. Correspondent Dan Rather reports.
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"To our country, we miss you and we hope we return one day. We're alive and well," says Keith Stansell, 38, a systems analyst.

"We expect to get out of here one day. We can't say for sure,” says Thomas Howes, 50, a professional pilot. “But our main concern is the welfare of our families."

"I'm a proud American,” says Marc Gonsalves, 31, also a systems analyst. “I look to you guys and I ask for a diplomatic solution to get us home safe, please."

A videotape of the three Americans - Stansell, Howes and Gonsalves - was made by Colombian journalist Jorge Botero. He made the trek deep into the jungles to a steamy, wooden shack.

Botero was escorted inside by a guerrilla commander, where he met the three Americans and recorded a tape to prove that they were alive and well – and ready to be traded for imprisoned members of the FARC Revolutionary Army being held by the Colombian government.

They are prisoners in a war most Americans don't even know is going on, even though the United States is deeply involved.

Stansell, Gonsalves and Howes are contractors, like some of the thousands of American civilians now in Colombia. Many of them were hired by the U.S. government to search for and destroy cocaine production
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/06/60II/main576739.shtml

Part II: The Forgotten Hostages

"I have a message for the company that we work for, just remember one thing when you see the three of us here. We did a good job for you. Just take good care of our families. We see here in the press release that our contract has been changed to a company that we don't know about after our crash,” says Stansell.
What the three men didn't know was that ten days after their plane went down, California Microwave handed over the mission, their contract, to a newly formed company named Ciao.

The three learned this from a press release Botero brought them, which Stansell read to his friends: “Three years ago, the Pentagon awarded a contract to conduct surveillance in Colombia to California Microwave, a subsidiary of Northrop Grumman. Shortly after plane went down, California Microwave transferred the contract, along with the planes and pilots, to a new company called C-I-A-O … chow."

When their captors overheard the hostages talking about the new company, the FARC made it clear that the new name sounded suspiciously like the CIA.

"C-I-A-O. This happened after the crash. We don't know who these people are," says Stansell. “We're civilian contractors."
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60 Minutes II went to Northrop Grumman and asked about its new subsidiary, Ciao, which is now apparently in charge of planes and pilots in Colombia.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/08/60II/main577184.shtml

March 16, 2004
Hostage's Son Gets Support from Classmates


“A child has lost his father to a Colombian guerrilla group we need to take action now,” said Dylan Rawles.

The letters to Senators Richard Lugar and Evan Bayh were the idea of teacher Stacy Ireland. “As sixth graders we can make a difference working with our government in Noblesville and we can make a difference in United States,” said teacher Stacy Ireland.

No one wants to make a difference more than student Kyle Stansell. “I just have a feeling now, all this is being done. It's got to do something,” he said.

Kyle is the son of Keith Stansell. Stansell and the two other American hostages appeared in a documentary shot last summer in Colombia. It is the only visual evidence that the men are still alive.
“Then I see him on this and he's almost crying and I've never seen him cry in his entire life,” said Kyle.

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1716114&nav=CPFQLZmj


U.S. adds to military presence in Colombia
Leftist rebels admit holding three Americans
Saturday, February 22, 2003 Posted: 10:17 PM EST (0317 GMT)



The bodies of two passengers were found shot near the wreckage of their crashed plane.

U.S. adds to military presence in Colombia
Leftist rebels admit holding three Americans
Saturday, February 22, 2003 Posted: 10:17 PM EST (0317 GMT)



The bodies of two passengers were found shot near the wreckage of their crashed plane.

CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- A senior Bush administration official told CNN on Saturday that additional U.S. military personnel have been dispatched to Colombia, where leftist rebels have acknowledged holding three Americans captive.


Colombia's largest rebel group has said the lives of the three U.S. citizens are at risk if the government does not halt military operations in rebel-held territory.

In a communiqué posted Saturday on its Web site, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia -- known by its Spanish acronym, FARC -- acknowledged for the first time that it had captured three Americans who survived a plane crash February 13 in rebel-held territory.

The rebels also claimed responsibility for shooting down the plane, which they said had been on a mission to spy on them. Colombian and U.S. military forces have blamed the crash on mechanical problems.

"We can only guarantee the life and physical integrity of the three official gringos in our power if the Colombian military immediately suspends military operations and overflights in the area," said the communiqué, which was datelined "The mountains of Colombia, February 21."

The State Department refused to comment on the FARC announcement and repeated previous statements holding the FARC "responsible for the safety, health and well-being" of the Americans.

The United States "demands their safe release," a State Department official said.

The State Department official said the United States has "not authorized any group to negotiate" with FARC for the hostages' release.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:nM4LQCfeQ9oJ:www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americas/02/22/colombia.americans/+private+military+contractor+columbia+hostages&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

BuzzFlash Reader Contribution

After the grisly scene in Fallujah there can now be no doubt: All civilians are targets because all civilians are potential mercenaries in the service of the occupying forces.

Consequently, until the US and UK revoke and renounce the contracting of mercenaries, more killings similar to the one in Fallujah will occur.

The result will be that as more contractors and civilians die, assistance from legitimate aid agencies, charities, and peace groups will decrease. This hurts the Iraqi people because armies aren’t trained or equipped for nation building and providing humanitarian aid on a large, sustained scale.

It’s essential for the welfare of the Iraqi people that non-governmental organizations and foreign government aid agencies be trusted to work in Iraq. The use of mercenaries blurs the line between civilians and the military and erodes the possibility of trust between Iraqis and westerners -- a state of affairs that endangers the lives of everyone.

The Bush administration neo-conservatives behind our illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq aren’t likely to swear off the use of mercenaries, and thus they’ll continue undermining the lofty goals they allegedly hope to accomplish in Iraq. If their past record and ideology is any indication, the incident in Fallujah will be used as an excuse to retaliate with higher levels of violence -- inevitably inspiring more Iraqis to condone violent resistance.

The neo-conservatives never had to learn the lessons of Vietnam; they probably won’t learn the lessons of what’s happening now.

A BUZZFLASH READER CONTRIBUTION

Mike Kress is an Air Force veteran who spent six months in the Persian Gulf. He lives in Spokane, WA, and serves as vice-chair of the city’s Human Rights Commission. Contact via shrcmike@yahoo.com.
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/04/con04150.html

and that makes it okay?

If he became a child pornographer for the money because his dairy farm failed and got kidnapped by a rival child pornographer, would it still be sad?

We are the Nazis in France in 1940. Would it be okay to volunteer to go to France and drive trucks for the Nazis because you need the money?

I'm not buying it.

Like his choice to go to Iraq: lots of risk, potentially good payout.

However, a lot less of a chance of being kidnapped.

Gives me hope.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

If he does, his problems will be over. Seems to me this war is hitting home in small towns.

And come back to tell others how a few bucks from the BFEE isn't worth the killing and threat of death. He could become a peace advocate.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

Some of the banter in this thread completely disgusts me. This man is a human being, like you me and everyone else. To say he "gets what he deserves" you are sounding like some ignorant simpleton who is trying to prove how "tough" they are. It is a life in peril, I don't care who it is, this man could very well end up dead. It is disgusting to think that some people are actually saying that he deserves this. He was trying to help out his family, those were his intentions. He wanted to get his family out of debt, he didnt want to go "kill the r-gheads" or "run people over". Thats absurd to even say that. When someone is in trouble, I throw political affiliation out the window. Its a matter of compassion.

im not paying taxes for people to go overseas, risk their lives to oppress the natives and profit off it.
too bad about his debt but im sure iraquis have it harder.

He "chose" to go there, an Iraqi does not choose to be in the violent situation he/she is in. I find it hard to feel pity for these captive. This is karma.

it as the moral equivalency of guarding one of Hitler's concentration camps. :eyes:

Hell, I don't see it, and I've had the benefit of reading all of these "enlightened" posts.