Hasidic newspaper edits Secretary of State out of Situation Room photo

Source: Daily Mail

It is the image that has come to define a pivotal point in history, capturing the moment the deadly raid on Osama Bin Laden's lair was watched in awe by the White House elite.

But it appears for one U.S. newspaper, a couple of the people sat with President Barack Obama in the Situation Room that day were not quite elite enough.

Brooklyn-based Hasidic newspaper Der Zeitung printed a story this week with a subtly manipulated version of the historic image - all the men in the photograph remain untouched but the two women in the picture have been Photoshopped out.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384847/where-did-hillary-clinton-hasidic-newspaper-edits-secretary-state-situation-room-photo.html?ito=feeds-newsxml%27

---

Ah religion.

something else.

In the photo, Hillary is covered from ankle to collarbone and even her mouth is covered. Any female they may see on the street, except possibly someone in a burka, would be revealing more

Two females, sitting as important folk in a top secret matter of global security, though? Now, that's a lot more threatening than going hatless.

if Hillary won the election in 2008? I guess no photos of the president? I'm glad that people in this country are free to believe whatever they want to believe, but sometimes it's just plain ridiculous. :crazy:

The sexuality angle is total bs. It's just an effort to keep their public from seeing strong and effective leaders who are women.

is that an elbow?

four years ago, their women are nothing but baby machines. It doesn't surprise me that they want to hide the fact that women can be leaders from their people.

because they couldnt stand women in tights riding through.


You know, people complain about women and Islam. I can't see how this is any worse.

They would rather that commuters buy oil from the Arabs, I suppose.

A delicious Brooklyn battle over a bicycle lane is pitting the borough’s Hasids against its hipsters. Tunku Varadarajan weighs the arguments of the “trustafarian” poseurs on bicycles and the arguably overdressed Hasidim.

...

Municipal authorities, responding to Hasidic plaints, had recently removed the bicycle lane—sandblasting the paint that marked the on-street bikers’ border. According to the Post’s report, the Hasidim had argued that the lane posed a “safety and religious hazard,” and the city, having looked into the grouse, acceded to the demand that the bike lane be ousted. In response to the loss of their lane, however, cyclist-hipster-vigilantes took the law into their own hands: They repainted the bike lane in the dark of night, an act that resulted in the arrest of two young men.

...

But what of the “religious hazard” of which the Hasidim speak? Shedding light on this side of the story, New York magazine reports that the arguably overdressed Hasidim have been particularly disturbed by “hotties” who traverse their neighborhood on bikes, many in “shorts and skirts.” A local elder gave voice to community anguish: “I have to admit, it’s a major issue, women passing through here in that dress code.” (The elder in question is on to something: In a recent interview, Paul Auster, the John Updike of Brooklyn, testified to the allure of women on bicycles: “Young women on bicycles I find very erotic, I have to say. Even in New York, there are a lot of very attractive girls pedaling around. That just happens to be one of the nice sights in our city, seeing a young woman on a bike.”)

The Daily Beast

A Hasidic dressed man grabbed her breast as we passed him. There are some screwed up morals, obviously.

:wow:

It's a form of sexual harrassment known as frottage. The creepy men use crowds to their advantage. It's easier to get away with that stuff in crowded places.

I had something similar happen on a packed subway. (regular looking 40-ish white guy)

To be clear, I'm not trying to make blanket statement about any ethnic group. However, as with all fundamental religions, there do seem to be seriously screwed up problems with women and sex.

fundamentalism sucks especially for women. and that's pretty much across the board.

.

I know someone who works in the medical field in NY and many of the Hasidic women come to her office. She says that these women have so many babies that even some of the young ones have a prolapsed uterus. Not to be crass, but it also does something to their anus due to all the pushing at childbirth.

:blush:

silly people, tribalism is so 2500 or so yrs ago....

As it is ... not so much.

talk about insane arrogance!!

I checked the calendar; it's 2011.

The Commissar Vanishes

Or ...get their men HOT.

Hairy faces
Hairy backs
Hairy butts

You can leave your hat on...

:yoiks:

BTW I did an album of Hasidic music and one of the singers was the first singer in Toto... before he found religion. Nice stuff. Good dance music.

edited for the Randy Newman lyric.

- And I'm still trying to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f-cEM1l7Ks">"Hold the Line!"

each morning -- "Thank God I'm not a woman."

They're as repressive as the Muslims.

Your joke is not funny just insulting to observant Jews, but maybe that was your intent I don't know.


When the ultra orthodox start engaging in honor killings, female genital mutilation and stoning women for having affairs then I will agree with you about them being as repressive as Muslims. Right now they are not even close to that.

stop praying that? using those words? treating women in that way? Don'tcha think?

Halacha 6

When one fastens his belt, he recites: who girds Israel with strength.

When he puts on his shoes, he recites: for You have provided me with all my needs.

When he walks to depart on his way, he recites: who prepares the steps of man.

every day, a person should recite:

Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, who has not made me a non-Jew.

Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, who has not made me a woman.

Blessed are You, God, our Lord, King of the universe, who has not made me a servant.



It is true that more sane parts of the faith have reworked this prayer, but the Hasidic Jews still use this version.

but regardless you are referring to the Birkot Hashachar, a prayer said in the morning by most jews.

Lets look at what some of the brachot really say via torah for tots (an orthodox site):



Boruch .....Sheh-lo Ah-sah-ni Goy. (note the word Goy is referring to Jews here, it does NOT mean non-jews)

"Blessed are You…..for making me proud to fulfill my obligations as a Jew."


A Jew has been given a special mission in this world. With the Torah to guide him (and her), a Jew is guided by the 613 Mitzvot. Hashem loves ALL mankind and a Jew must respect ALL of Hashem's creations. This Bracha helps us understand that in this world Hashem has chosen the Jewish people to guard the laws of His Torah



Boruch.....Sheh-lo Ah-sah-ni Aw-ved.
"Blessed are You…..for not having made me a slave."

First we were real slaves in Egypt, then Hashem made us free... then He made us servants again, only this time we became servants to Hashem! What's the lesson? There's a big difference between spending your day making bricks in the mud pits and spending the day fulfilling Hashem's commandments. This Bracha reminds us that it is an honor to fulfill Hashem's commandments!



Boruch..... Sheh-lo Ah-sah-ni Isha.

"Blessed are You…..for not having made me a woman."

Let's not take the translation for this one literally. There are many commandments in the Torah that are the responsibility of a man, like Talit and Tefillin. Laws like these keep the guys in line. Just goes to show you that women don't need all these extra Mitzvot to achieve perfection like men do!



Boruch..... Sheh-aw-sani Kir-tzono.

"Blessed are You.....for having made me according to His will."

Three cheers for women... protectors of tradition... molders of character... guardians of the family. By nature, women are the more perfect of the species. This Bracha is a tribute to the wise woman who understands that we must strive to be what Hashem wants us to be... satisfied with serving Hashem according to His will!



Boruch.....Po-kay-ach Iv-rim.
"Blessed are You… Who gives sight to the blind."


Boruch.....Mal-bish Ah-ru-mim.
"Blessed are You… Who clothes the naked."

Boruch.....Ma-tir Ah-su-rim.
"Blessed are You… Who releases the bound."

Boruch… Zokaif Kefufim.
"Blessed are You… Who straightens the bent."

Boruch… Rokah Ha-aretz Al Hamayim.
"Blessed are You… Who spreads out the earth upon the waters."

Boruch… Hamaichin Mitzadei Gaver.
"Blessed are You… Who firms man’s footsteps."

Boruch… Sheh-ahsa Li Kol Tzorki.
"Blessed are You… Who has provided me my every need."

Boruch… Oizer Yisroel Bigevura.
"Blessed are You… Who girds Israel with might."

Boruch… Oiter Yisroel B’tif-ara.
"Blessed are You… Who crowns Israel with splendor."

Boruch...Hanosayn La-yaw-ayf Co-ach.
"Who grants strength to the weary."

Boruch… Hamavir Shayna May-aynoi Ooh-snuma May-ahf-ah-poi.
"Blessed are You… Who removes sleep from my eyes and slumber from my eyelids."

etc.
http://www.torahtots.com/birchtam/ambless1.htm


The newer Jewish movements have changed it:

http://www.ohebshalom.org/docs/2008transentire.pdf

Page 4-8

they celebrate their God given superior status as a man. It doesn't make it a bit better.

You should read about the Baal Shem Tov:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/421867/jewish/Stories.htm

Jews (including Chassids) don't think they are better than anyone, they think that they are obligated to perform the mitzvot, which according to Jewish custom is not required from non Jews.

every morning. You can put lipstick on that dog, and it's still a dog.

More disturbing is that women can't make independent decisions about fertility. Approval by her Rabbi in regard to contraception is subjugation, a humiliation at best. There is no real defense.

Talk about a curious decision. The responses on this thread are pounding away at a religion for some specific reasons, but some are simply displaying hatred. Is this what we want for DU's public face?

Does having a problem with oppression of women make you a "hater"?

Mind you, I realize this is not the Jewish faith but a small sect of the faith.

There was absolutely nothing sexual about the way that Hillary Clinton or the other woman was dressed and yet these Hasiadic Jews treated them like second class citizens. I suspect that Hillary Clinton has a very important part of the capturing of OBL, I know Obama has relied heavily on her advice. So for this paper to print the photo and censure out 2 of the woman who were a part of this important process is just shameful.

I realize that Christians, Muslims and Jews are not bad faith - all 3 have some wonderful aspects about them. But each of these faiths have a small part of their overall group that perverts the faith to justify hatred whether it's towards homosexuals, or women or even an entire nation.

I think even Jews would understand why we are shocked over what this newspaper did.

supporting religions that blatantly deny women?

Someone really ought to have told Golda Meir.

Read his/her post again and show me where I said anything that wasn't said in the post.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Hasidic Jews do not equal Judaism, any more than Pat Robertson's group equals Christianity.

:eyes:

Disingenious posts such as yours are, indeed, eye-rollers.

Mission Accomplished!

A quick little lesson on how easy it is -- just as NYC & Israel itself bowed to a minority pressure. :puke:

that it is hatred of intolerance in certain aspects of some sects. I think such intolerance in our country should be the lead article on the front page. What they did was highly offensive.

What will this newspaper do when we have a woman president? Photoshop her out of every picture?

that treats women this way.

bravo!

and keeping them 2nd class citizens is OK?

As for "pounding away at religion" -- you do understand what identifies these people IS their religion, don't you?
In Israel men of this same sect have publicly beaten women for daring to sit in the front of *their* buses. And like NYC's government, that Democratic nation has bowed to them.

This is curious. It doesn't seem you have a problem with this information because it's true, but because it's dared to be discussed!
--and on the front page no less!
ZOMG Quick, where's mah pearls & smelling salts?!

As for all the "hate" here -- point to these hating posts and educate us --facts, links, the whole nine yards-- on where we're wrong. Please!

I sure wouldn't like to be known as bigoted, or worse!

who go through their neighborhoods in NYC who they think are inappropriately dressed. They had a bike path removed because women were using it.

:eyes:

But some DUers did ask questions in response.

Scared to death their women will walk in disgust.

Their concern is that they don't want to show any woman that might look too sexually suggestive but seriously - neither women in the photo are dressed like hookers or victoria secret models, they look professional and modest.

Shame on that paper!

and THAT is VERY suggestive.

She's not wearing a coat, but I assume those women remove their coats indoors and in warm weather.

Even outdoors, they are showing ankles and some calf. You don't see anything in Hillary's photo but her neck and part of her face. Let's stop pretending this was about female modesty.

Please see Reply 153, 3 and 18.

Ever see a man on TV cleaning a toilet bowl?

:evilgrin:

Now that you mention it...no
---------------------------------------
Which is a shame...they do it so well.


"

Not good enough ...

We need some DANCING and SINGING -- and BIG SMILES ---!!



:evilgrin:

much makeup...hair wonderfully in place...yeah!!! Let's see the little man happy at his work!!!

:rofl:

entire rooms full of women on how to do laundry 'the right way'!

Have you noticed the relatively recent phenomenon of men being spokes, er, men for laundry products? I sure have!

only accidentally see TV commercials from time to time ---

In fact, from what I see, it looks like everyone in America is ill given

the ads for prescription drugs!

Once in a while -- and usually I have my little TV near my computer on TEXT --

I'll see some 30ish woman floating around gaily going about her day while below

in text they are telling you the side effects of the drugs --

"if you're suddenly feeling suicidal, if you're hair begins to fall out, if your eyes turn red,

if you suffer nausea more than 5X a day, if you're itchy all over" --

and for men there's this thriller -- "If you have an erection for more than 4 hours" --


Guess I should watch a few more and get caught up!!

Thanks for the laugh -- !!

:evilgrin:

they were hatched from some spotted egg out in a pristine forest? May their mothers disown them.

Fook old religions.

Official policy of Judaism is to ignore women's achievements? Really? What's your source?

This is a very small subset of a religion that worships education. Offical policy my ass.

that I would think of this subset, as all of judaism?

It certainly appears to be Der Zeitung's policy. I wonder where they got the idea?

If what I said is not clear, I will re-phrase.

considered "sexually suggestive" ... History, it seems, is not devoid of women, not matter how good our photoshopping skills are. To try and pretend that women aren't part of today's most important historical moments is ridiculous ...

Clinton Removed From Iconic Situation Room Photo
The presence of Clinton and Thomason considered too "sexually suggestive" for religious newspaper.
By: DAVID SHEAR
Published: May 9th 2011
http://www.shalomlife.com/eng/15194/Clinton_Removed_From_Iconic_Situation_Room_Photo/

Haredi paper removes Clinton from photo
Der Tzitung deletes US secretary of state from Situation Room picture showing President Obama and staff watching bin Laden raid
David Shear
05.09.11
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4066616,00.html


NY Hassidic paper ‘deletes’ Clinton from iconic photo
By JORDANA HORN
05/08/2011 01:58
... One Hassidic paper in Brooklyn .. has chosen to alter the photo – excising Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and another female staffer from the picture ...
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=219660

!

The downside: Inflame Osama's followers

The other downside: Obama haters wouldn't believe the photos anyway

A third downside: The original photos could be photoshopped

but what does that have to do with editing images of women out of a photo of a.... mixed gender meeting, I guess you could say LOL

If a newspaper can edit out a woman from a photo this well known, then it would be easy for anyone to edit a photo that isn't as well known

We've obviously got to get a woman president. If only to make some heads explode.

... to see that picture and think ...

Yowza, maybe I'm missing out on something by not being Hasidic.

Oh, well, now back to my boring, unimaginitive atheism.

:hi:

Why, you can actually see a third of Hillary's forearm!

*hubba hu...no, Bubba* :evilgrin:

:sarcasm:

This group must have sharpened its editing skills just from dealing with her place in history.

the fundamentalists in many other faiths. They control women by keeping them pregnant, a woman with a brood of children will put up with quite a bit.



This paper examines some of the traditional texts that deal with sexuality, birth control
and childbirth in the orthodox Jewish tradition and presents the rules governing these
areas. For instance, a married woman should avoid being alone with a male physician
unless other people are in earshot and have access to the room. A husband and wife
must separate during the woman's menses and for the first 7 days afterward.
Contraception is permitted if childbearing would endanger a woman's life or health.
Termination of pregnancy is also permitted to preserve a woman's health, including her
mental health. During childbirth the health of the mother is primary and supercedes all
other rules or laws, including those of Sabbath observance. In general, orthodox Jewish
women try to live as much as possible within the framework of Halacha. These customs
are examined as examples of the need for sensitivity to cultural norms that affect the
behaviour of different ethnic groups.

......


The rules of family purity revolve around restriction
of the time of the wife's sexual availability.
From the first day of the menstrual period there is a
time of abstinence of at least 5 days during the flow
of blood and of 7 "white" days after the last sign of
any bleeding. During this interval husband and wife
do not have intercourse or sleep in the same bed,
and they are not even allowed to touch. They cannot
relate sexually for at least 12 days of the month.
After the time of abstinence the return to a sexual
phase of life is signalled by immersion in the Mikveh
(ritual bath).


The Taliban have a similar rule.

that those poor women at least get a 2 week break from the demands of those 'hole in the sheet' sex maniacs they married!
--even though half the month they are considered "unclean"--

Hey, I try to find some good in every cloud :evilgrin:

a run for her money. It must have been a trying time for Hasidic males.

In particular, for the crime of creating/supporting Israel, which they think of as anti-Jewish (depending on their flavor, I don't know how "orthodox" they are, or which group).

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/chabad_and_antizionism/index.html

Fringe Judaism is a bit... unique.

surprised they didn't erase HIM from the photo because he's making me hot and bothered.

I counted it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk

:evilgrin:

Both rely on the supernatural to explain a world view...

Not much different the ultra Orthodox Jews views of women from the Muslim fundamentalists.

:(

As a Jew it makes me sick

just like my friend umayr is not responsible for osama's actions. you know.

was a huge radical of his time because he taught complete gender equality. Staying true to Shakyamuni's teachings, Nichiren Daishonin wrote, "There should be no distinction between believers, be they men or women, priests or nuns.." Our current leader Daisaku Ikeda constantly reiterates this basic tenet of Buddhism. It's one of the many reasons I have been practicing Nichiren Buddhism for 27 years now.

... y'know, like that "truth" fish eating a Darwin fish thingie







Although I'm sure the truth they are projecting is not the one they think it is....


the truth of oppressive, numbing stupidity.

Not only religion, but all imaginary man-made constructs that exist no where but our imagination-- philosophy, economics, nationalism, etc.-- seems all can be interpreted by the individual to better suit their own personal desires. Seems each has a strict dogma and tenets one must believe or else... :shrug:

around 2008 rabbi's finally got around to banning the burka, which some Israeli orthodox women were wearing.

But the reason why? Wearing the burka was a 'sexual fetish' in itself, they ruled. :eyes:

What's their views on American foreign aid? Maybe the US should Photoshop out some of the countries they like the US to continue to support with foreign aid so they can exist?

Just curious.

Asshats.

Where is common sense in all this bu$hit?

Religion is outdated and out of touch with reality.

I guess they think Hillary brings down the tone in the room.

i dunno, for some reason, this makes me think that it was written by the onion

When groups put themselves over our countries laws, we have a problem. When they do so under the cloak of faith and belief it becomes unacceptable. There is no immunuity for these crimes against humanity. (It's women but many others too.)

It's time to remove the tax free status from religion.

I don't see why we reward certain groups over others. Especially lawbreakers.

I doubt they altered the original photograph without asking the photographer's permission.

how do you even know the pic is copyrighted?

The *notice* on the source page also forbids alteration.

Oh, and humorous edits fall under fair use.

For example:
http://www.funny-city.com/3608/

photographer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright

This is a complex field of law.

govt works cant be copyrighted

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/05/flickr-creates-new-license-for-white-house-photos/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government

Government work products vary, based on their means of production, the nature of the product, and exemptions carved out for various reasons. The wired article is a tad imprecise.

The photo in question carries the following:

"This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way and may not be used in commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House."

With the following license:
http://www.usa.gov/copyright.shtml

We are not a newpaper, purporting to be reporting factually.

We are not selling our posts.

However, we might be violating the photog's property and artistic rights. I don't know. I do know parodies of other kinds of works do not violate copyright law. Is altering a photo as you described a parody? I don't know.

It's time to remove the tax free status from religion.

It's time to tax the churches, and tax the businesses owned by the churches, IMO.

little funny, little sad.

between any fundamentalist religions. This is not a coinsidence. Their brains are different. This enlarged amygdala crowd will always worship male authoritarian figures to the detriment of women. The advances in the studying brain physiology are giving us a disheartening explanation for why all these fundamentalists irrationally find the same boogeymen, and in this case, boogeywomen.

I say "disheartening," because, THEY CAN'T CHANGE and the world is too small for these totally irrational fears and hatreds which threaten the continued existence of human culture. Example: The irrational desire to control women's' sexuality by outlawing abortion and birth control, is a meaningless waste of time when compared to the reality based and growing threats of global climate change.

You gotta laugh at this place -- or go mad.

This thread about basically nothing:

109 posts
58 recs
4592 page views

Thread about NATO allowing 61 African migrants to die of thirst:

13 posts
17 recs
730 page views.



Both of these OPs were posted this morning.

Nice to see DU has it's priorities straight.

:eyes:

as a newbee, so much in this thread confuses me, even more than the photo. About front page, etc. about different debates that seem to have nothing to do with the photo. I was led to this place. I sometimes felt alone in my real world because of my politics etc. And fundamentalist of any ilk upset me.
The one thing I do know because of this thread and others. I know the main reason so many are not liberal or democrats. It is exhausting. You have to actually think, you are constantly being exposed to new ideas, debates, etc. It is downright exhausting. lol, having said that, why can't I stop reading? Why am I having so much fun?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/5680724572/in/photostream

Notice:

"This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way and may not be used in commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House."


- Which doesn't apply to them because... well, just because. Obvs........

...and it perfectly illustrates why so many of us uppity womenfolk gave up on patriarchal religions. While more modern sects do not display their misogyny so directly, it is built in to the belief system.

Just Say No to patriarchal religions. IMO.

or at least their Fundie version of it.

In the Hasidic community is as bad as, or worse than, in the Catholic church.

In the Hasidic community is as bad as, or worse than, in the Catholic church.

There, fixed that.

I have heard of cases in the Hasidic community, but nothing to make me believe it has risen to or surpassed, as you claim, to the levels seen in the Catholic Church.

http://www.brooklyneagle.com/categories/category.php?category_id=4&id=27424
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-05-09/news/17924196_1_hasidic-rabbi-molest-victim
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2008/12/12/2008-12-12_hasidic_girl_molested_by_59yearold.html
http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-hasidic-rabbi-sex-abuse,0,163421.story
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/05/accused-haredi-pedophile-meir-dascalowitz-may-be-declared-unfit-to-stand-trial-678.html

I think we're past the "isolated incident" levels, but does that mean "it has risen to or surpassed, as you claim, to the levels seen in the Catholic Church"?

So, how is one to measure such levels?

Legal cases?

Number of cases proportionate to global population? Number of cases relative to the US Jewish community? Number of cases relative to the size of the Hasidic community in a given area?

How about reports?

Number of reports proportionate to global population? Number of reports relative to the US Jewish community? Number of reports relative to the size of the Hasidic community in a given area?

News stories?

Number of news stories proportionate to global population? Number of news stories relative to the US Jewish community? Number of news stories relative to the size of the Hasidic community in a given area?

There are lots of ways of looking at the numbers, which could lead to lots of interpretations.

See Mormon polygamy and Mormon child-brides for a similar problem in slicing numbers when it comes to fringe sects of a faith, especially when it comes to regional issues.

Perhaps you should be asking those questions to the poster who made the claims. It doesn't look like "we're past the "isolated incident" levels," because those are the only examples you gave.

...there is a marked difference between "isolated incident" and "isolated incidents".

I only provided few hits from google, to point out that this isn't rare.

http://www.google.com/search?q=hasidic+molestation

Gives me 141,000 hits. Did you want all 141,000 in a DU post? Would that take it past the "isolated incident" goalpost?

http://www.google.com/search?q=catholic+molestation

Gives me 989,000 hits. Did you want all of those?

http://www.google.com/search?q=jewish+molestation

Gives me 676,000 hits.

Do you see the multiple problems here, in methodology, in methods of comparison, etc.?

The other poster made a claim. I asked for proof of said claim. I opined I didn't think it was as claimed based on my knowledge and now you are splitting hairs for something that doesn't yet exist, proof of his/her assertion.

Key word being "generate".

You want their argument, I am pointing out that both arguments are true in some sense, false in some sense, and thus, both true and false.

It's an argument that cannot be won, because there is no absolute truth in the matter.

That is all I am saying.

Then Moses is true,

as is Mohammed,

as is Jesus,

as is Joseph Smith.

I don't argue with truth. It's all true, if somebody believes.

The problem is if there's something greater than truth.

"I have heard of cases in the Hasidic community, but nothing to make me believe it has risen to or surpassed, as you claim, to the levels seen in the Catholic Church."

So, I asked if your statement was based on numbers or to percentages. It's not a difficult question and this is a message board, not a court of law.

If you prefer to dodge the question, anyway,though, thst's understandable.

Perhaps that was your intention, given your other comments, it's completely understandable.

My opinion is based on numbers of reported cases I have seen.

Nice try.

:hi:

A bunch of fearful idiots who live off of the bitter pill. I know they'll never read this because they have their heads locked up in a box with no windows but I'll just caste this rant out into the ether at those who denegrate women:

As liberals, we live and let live. We are charitable to a fault, compassionate, and can tolerate great suffering without losing hope. But You!! You are stinking up our air and making a mess of all that we must share. You are a threat to our future. You are down-pressers and turn this beautiful world into a dark, sad and evil place. Go to your hell and pretend it's heaven but you are encroaching on our shared space and we will not let you take it over with your selfish, twisted way of living that turns joy into sadness, happiness into pain, and freedom into bondage. Our tolerance of your bad behavior has worn thin. You no longer get a free pass from us.

"The readership of the Tzeitung believe that women should be appreciated for who they are and what they do, not for what they look like, and the Jewish laws of modesty are an expression of respect for women, not the opposite," the statement said."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/10/3212854.htm


At least that's better than a "no comment".

Uh, FAIL.

If they had remained consistent with "no human portrayals", I could respect that... but they didn't.

First, they apologized because (a) they were called out; and (b) they were in trouble for using the photo in a way that violated express WH instructions.

Second, less of Hillary was showing in that photo than Hasidic women show when out in public. Please see Reply 153.

It was about oppression. Please see Reply 18.

That's fucked up.