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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:04 AM
Original message
Obama to AIPAC: 1967 borders reflect longstanding U.S. policy
Source: Haaretz

U.S. president clarifies Mideast vision is based on 1967 borders with mutually agreed swaps; Obama reassures U.S. commitment to Israel is 'ironclad' and says U.S. demands Hamas recognize Israel's right to exist. U.S. President Barack Obama said Sunday before the AIPAC pro-Israel lobby that two states for two people based on 1967 borders has been a longstanding U.S. policy for Mideast negotiations.

--snip--

While Obama, speaking to the BBC Sunday ahead of his AIPAC speech, reaffirmed his commitment to the 1967 borders as a peace-talks guideline, he warned the Palestinians against appealing to the UN for recognition of a Palestinian state and urged the future Fatah-Hamas unity cabinet to make a decision on their stance toward peace talks with Israel.

--snip--

The U.S. president said that he had already told Palestinian officials that "whatever happens in the United Nations, you are going to have to talk to the Israelis if you are going to have a state in which your people have self-determination, adding: "You are not going to be able to do an end run around the Israelis." "And so I think that, you know, whatever efforts they mount in the United Nations will be symbolic, he said, adding that the world has "seen a lot of these sort of symbolic efforts before. They're not something that the United States is going to be particularly sympathetic towards, simply because we think it avoids the real problems with that have to be resolved between the two parties."

The U.S. president also reiterated his support of the 1967 borders functioning as a negotiations starting point, adding that "the truth is that we were stating what I think most observers of the long history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict recognize as the obvious - which is that if you're going to have any kind of peace, you're going to have two states side by side."

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-to-aipac-1967-borders-reflect-longstanding-u-s-policy-1.363351



PB
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. There is really nothing here that the pro-Israel crowd should complain about..
but I sure they will find something.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. And while I normally poo-poo the idea of Obama as the "multi-dimensional chess player", I have to...
...say, this particular move is understated yet sublime in the political wrangling. The dogs are closing in, Sharon can hear their barking. He's treed and it won't be long before he's retrieved and brought to the bargaining table. It means the real prospect of security and Peace in Israel, but it is also the very real death of a certain variety of political legerdemain the right-wing has been using in Israel for way too long.

It is death of this political strategy, not the death of Israel, which deeply concerns Netanyahu.

PB
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Are you suggesting that the US invade Israel?
Seriously?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. How progressive of you - what other countries do you want to invade?
Do you actually agree with Bush's actions in Iraq?

Aren't there enough wars already?
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I share this view..
I tend to think for the moment that this is the case.. discussing this subject last night with a friend, we were lamenting how on earth Netanyahu was able to be elected (the question of whatever happened to the Israeli Left) and the under the radar effort to create a larger and more staunch support of the Likkud party by creating and expanding on illegal settlements vis a vis a relocation program of the Jewish Diaspara largely from South American countries, such as Peru and I believe Brazil as well as the United States. The question of Sharon's whereabouts and his state of health, (is he still alive?) does he still hold office, etc.?

I don't care for Obama's edict wrt to United Nations Resolutions in Septemember, but I understand (I think) what that's about. It's essentially true I believe, that the Palestinian's will not succeed in doing an end around Israel. But Israel's going have to be forced tof play. I don't know what measures and actions that's going to take. But this inhumane nightmare must come to end now.

I think the Jewish Diaspara at large (especially those with dual citizenship in the U.S.) is going to have to come to terms with this and force the Israeli policy makers' hand themselves.

I really wish they would. Not likely but I guess I can still hope.

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DallasNE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. I'm Sure Sharon Is Still "Alive"
He has been in a coma since a stroke in 2006 and last November was moved to his ranch where I presume he still "lives".
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. That's what I had last heard, but that was years ago
And had wondered what his health status has been recently. I tried to recall if he had actually passed away, but didn't remember reading any news of his situation in recent years. I was essentially asking the question. Apologies for any confusion.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. 'The question of Sharon's whereabouts ..(does he still hold office)
`The question of Sharon's whereabouts and his state of health, (is he still alive?) does he still hold office, etc.? `


Does Sharon still hold office? (SERIOUSLY ??? )

I suspect that you and a lot of others posting on this topic are just not well informed enough to comment.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Sharon had disappeared from headlines for sometime
To be sure I have not made a point of following Sharon's condition/situation personally, I've been following the on going, never ending ME crises closely enough especially since 2000 to have formed an opinion or two, especially as regards U.S. Policies in the region. Thank you very much.

There is such a thing as suffering a medical crises but still officially retaining political office in this country and in others. I don't know about how it works in Israel, which is why I put it as a question obviously. Curious why you simply could not resist snarky response.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Because it so out the ballpark to anyone paying


even the slightest of peripheral interest ,to this topic.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. True.. his stroke certainly managed to affect that objective: permanent obscurity
interesting timing, that.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. There will be no bargaining.
Hamas is a terrorist group sworn to the destruction of Israel. They will never give up that ideology and thus no bargaining will happen.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Peace Accords in Ireland and England once thought impossible
official "terrorists" organizations, sworn enemies of England and the Crown..no longer.

It is possible to change positions held with tenacious grip for nearly a century and longer. Both parties have to be willing to give up destructive ideas and behavior. not just one side.

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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. Ireland never said England should not exist.
Not comparable in any sense.
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tootrueleft Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
70. Ireland said 'get the f**k off our land' so comparable in every sense...
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. No the Palestinians say that Israel has no right to exist.
I suspect you hold the same view if you think it is comparable.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I'm beginning to understand why there will never, ever be peace
until the entire middle east is nuked out of existance, Israeli's, Palestinians and all people in the neighboring environs.

because you hardliners never ever hear the truth, simply because you don't want to.

No wonder Mitchell walked out.
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tootrueleft Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. You think wrong.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. I made a statement of fact not of thought.
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tootrueleft Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Well then you suspect wrong. Its probably the response you originally deserved
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
78. But England did say that Ireland didn't exist.
From the conquering of Ireland by William of Orange at Boyne until the foundation of the Republic, London's official stance was that there was no Ireland as a country, merely an island of chattel (a speech in the House of Lords on the famine remarked "Who among us cares if the sheep starve?") and loyal British subjects of the crown called Ireland. The Orange practice of "planters" in Ulster is settlement. The Brits went so far as to hold elections for representation in the House of Commons and preclude Irish Catholics from voting on the grounds that they were disloyal. I/P's got nothing on I/E as far as conflicts go.

The comparison is apt. Problematic, but apt. The further problem is that 20 years out there are still factions in Ulster that do not recognize the peace, both Orange and IRA. I unfortunately have little doubt that I/P will likewise have clingers-on to conflict.
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. Israel was founded in part by terrorism - check your history
They are NOT entitled to the land.

Israel should cease to exist and be replaced by a normal state without a special 'jewish' orientation.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. Let's get rid of the states with an Islamic orientation.
Or is it just jews you are upset with.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. Irgun is a terrorist group sworn to the destruction of Palestine.
They will never give up that ideology and thus no bargaining will happen.

Hm. Seems kind of simplistic, and wrong.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. Irgun does not exist .
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. Some history:
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. It most certainly exists, it just changed its name.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
46. Sharon can't hear anything.
He's been in a coma for five years.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great speech
Edited on Sun May-22-11 11:19 AM by oberliner
I posted a thread with the full text of the speech here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x677470

Went over quite well with most of the AIPAC audience from all reports I've seen.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. This portion of the speech brough lots of applause and I though it was telling:
That is what I said. Now, it was my reference to the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps that received the lion’s share of the attention. And since my position has been misrepresented several times, let me reaffirm what “1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps” means.

By definition, it means that the parties themselves – Israelis and Palestinians – will negotiate a border that is different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967. It is a well known formula to all who have worked on this issue for a generation. It allows the parties themselves to account for the changes that have taken place over the last forty-four years, including the new demographic realities on the ground and the needs of both sides. The ultimate goal is two states for two peoples. Israel as a Jewish state and the homeland for the Jewish people, and the state of Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people; each state enjoying self-determination, mutual recognition, and peace.

If there’s a controversy, then, it’s not based in substance. What I did on Thursday was to say publicly what has long been acknowledged privately. I have done so because we cannot afford to wait another decade, or another two decades, or another three decades, to achieve peace. The world is moving too fast. The extraordinary challenges facing Israel would only grow. Delay will undermine Israel’s security and the peace that the Israeli people deserve.

I know that some of you will disagree with this assessment. I respect that. And as fellow Americans and friends of Israel, I know that we can have this discussion.


I thought that was a very tactful (yet forceful) smack at Netanyahu (and company) and the fact it received such a favorable response was heartening.

PB
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Iliyah Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The photograph
of Prez O and Prime Minister Netanyahu was telling. Looked like a couple who had just broken up - LOL

Corporate media got their talking points from the right wing. Wouldn't it be amazing if a agreement was made for both governments which would move the peace negotiation forward in a positive manner?

Fake news would be all over it stating "IT WAS BUSH'S POLICY" he and his administration should get ALL the credit.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Oh, I didn't see that yet- link by any chance?
PB
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Probably this one:
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Ha! Oh man, I can't believe they let that one out. Love on the rocks!
He needs to drop AIPAC & Bibi and trade up to J Street & Livni!

PB
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dharmamarx Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I don't really see anything impressive about this speech.
Obama repeatedly calls for "mutually agreed swaps" of land and says that "the parties themselves – Israelis and Palestinians – will negotiate a border." Simply put, this means the Palestinians continue to get screwed. The focus on "mutually agreed" and "negotiations" means that Israel can drag its feet for as long as it likes. Or, as Finkelstein puts it here (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/20/did_obamas_mideast_speech_signal_us), this gives Israel a "veto" over "Palestinian rights." Netanyahu knows this; he may be pretending to be upset (that's called "playing the refs"), but he knows that as long as all the US is doing is demanding negotiations, Israel can do whatever it likes, and Netanyahu is already explicitly opposed to the 1967 borders. So unless there is a significant political shift within Israel that produces a government that is willing to sincerely negotiate the 1967 borders (I'm not holding my breathe) Israel will continue to confiscate Palestinian land. If the US is to play a productive role in solving this problem, the American public will have to recognize first that Israel created these problems and thus cannot be trusted to solve them.
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. Replace Israel with a modern, secular, non special state. Call it Palestine. Done.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Israel is probably the most modern and secular state in the region
No idea what "non special" is supposed to mean.

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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Not when they discriminate against non jews
It means is ceases to be a jewish state. No special rights, no right to come there to displace palestinians, no discrimination against others. No special place for religious (jewish law) and none of this self serving greater israel junk.

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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And replace Jewish law with what? sharia law?

Secular Palestinian state? That's laughable, especially with Iran meddling in it through Hamas. There are no secular islamic countries, other then Turkey, and even there the islamists are threatening to undo 90 years of secular government.
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Note the word secular - means not based on religion of any sort
While there are delusional extremists in all the various brands of religion, including islam, christian and jewish, the thing to do is create a state NOT based on any of them.

The fear mongering about sharia law taking over in this country is misplaced. Christian fundie lunacy is actually a far bigger danger.

In the middle east, there is a call for sharia law among some islam folks, but this has never been a tenet of palestinian state.

Again note the word secular. Law does not have to be based on or beholden to one religious fantasy versus another.

Time to give up stone age beliefs and join the modern world.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Israel is a secular democracy
Edited on Sun May-22-11 02:00 PM by oberliner
Unlike just about every other country in the region.

They certainly have their problems with discrimination and such, but they are most definitely not a religious state (Jewish law is not the law of the land).
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Myth. No it is not. It gives special privileges to jewish religion and jewish ethnicity.
Edited on Sun May-22-11 03:01 PM by on point
In other words the idea of a 'jewish state' needs to go away.
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Let's get rid of all of the Islamic based nations first.
Then we can do Israel.
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. No. People have a right to self determination, but should respect UN Rights for women for instance.
People of a land have a right to self determination. If they want an Islamic state they can have it. Up to them, not us. I think that would be a great mistake, but still their right. I also think they would have to support some basic fundamental human rights such as rule of law, freedom of speech, rights for women and freedom of religion under UN in order be a valid state. If they did that hardly an islamic state, but so be it.

As I said above. Time to move beyond all magic thinking (ie religion). Islamic just isn't more nasty than christian fundie inquisition was, or may become if they are allowed to violate separation of church and state and impose a non-secular state.

Problem with self determination for israel, is that it wasn't based on self determination of the native population. It was based on invasion, ethnic cleansing and depriving native Palestinians of their land.

Self determination would first have to allow back all the exiled palestinians and strip the jewish imports of voting rights.


(BTW, don't get me wrong. I feel great sympathy for all the historic abuse jewish people over the ages have suffered at the hands of christians and the nazi's in particular, it is just that doesn't give them special rights to steal the land of others and impose their own state on them.)
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former9thward Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You quote the UN but seem to forget the UN set up Israel.
How far back in history do you want to go righting imagined wrongs? Do you want to strip voting rights from all non-native Americans? Or do you want to just impose your self determination theories on Israel? How about Europe where peoples have been pushed out and around by others for hundreds of years? How do do you fix "self determination" there? I don't expect consistency from you.
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. True. Under threat of jewish terrorism they did make the mistake of granting them a small piece of
This was a mistake the UN made, under threat of jewish terrorism and misplaced sympathy for the crimes against humanity committed against the jewish population, and western states own guilt for not accepting jewish refugees, they did create a special religious / ethnic state for them.

BTW, though initially stolen, that small piece of land is the ONLY bit of land that could be considered 'legally' theirs.

The point is that it was a mistake, it is not an equitable solution, and it is not going to last. The sooner we understand that the sooner we will have justice and peace in the middle east. The future is a middle east without a special state se aside for jews. Instead there needs to be a secular, non ethnic based state, without special 'identity' for anyone.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
59. Ask any Muslim how many "Islamic" based nations there are. They will all answer 0.
Edited on Mon May-23-11 10:20 AM by harun
The modern nation state is about the protection of the elite that set it up and covering their own ass.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. What about Iran?
Aren't they an Islamic Republic? That's in their name.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. For the people I know that live there they feel that the gov't
of Iran is harming the religion of Islam by forcing cultural practices on people. Where people who are indifferent to religion become an enemy of religion, seeing it as a tool of oppression as opposed to a source of benefit.

I'm sure one could find some who agree with their model though.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. How about the Idea of a Japanese state or the idea of a Persian state


Does that need to go away too? Or is it just a Jewish state you have problems with?
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Jewish people are NOT native to palestine. They are emigrants.
Different than persian state or japanese state which are based around historic ethnic people that have been there for centuries.

I do have a problem with the Japanese, German and others failures to grant citizenship to people of other ethnic groups born there such as Koreans or Turks respectively, or who discriminate against them and have different rights for them. (Iran doesn't do this)

The vast majority of jews in made up state of israel come from europe and have stolen the land of the original people who owned it.

There are very few jewish families that have been there for centuries, And by the way, there wasn't a jewish arab problem back then - not until jewish invaders came and tried to steal the land.

(PS. Don't go to the specious argument that it was jewish way back when. I think you will find that they also stole it from Canaanites ad Philistines back then. )

You also miss my larger point. The jewish people have no special right to a state on someone elses land. They have no special right just because they are jewish. They are equal and have same rights as everyone else.

State of Israel needs to go away and be replaced by a secular, non specific state.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Your information is inaccurate
You wrote:

"The vast majority of jews in made up state of israel come from europe and have stolen the land of the original people who owned it."

This is not true.

By the way, what do you think motivated the movement for a Jewish state in the first place?

Also, do you think other non-secular states ought to go away as well?

And how does one go about making a state "go away" in the first place?
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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. A preponderance of the jewish population, or their parents came from another country
That makes them emigrants. Simple numerical demographics. They took over land that originally belonged to the palestinians.
I don't see how facts can be offensive.

Are you saying that reality is clashing with your fiction, and it is offensive to call you on it?

I know why they came, to set-up a safe haven country, but they are not entitled to steal someone else's land no matter how badly they were treated by christians and europeans. Nor can they base it on some self serving magic god myth, nor can it based on a zionist myth of return.

You could legitimately argue they were entitled to part of germany. Or perhaps that the united states should have accepted far more refuges and created a safe haven for them, but you cannot argue that stealing some else's land is legitimate.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. You wrote that the vast majority of Israeli Jews come from Europe - that is false
I am happy to have a reasonable discussion with you on these topics, but it is not disputable that the Jewish population of Israel is roughly evenly divided between Jews of European origin and Jews of African or Asian origin.

I also dispute your claim about people taking over land that originally belonged to the Palestinians. If you are talking about the early Zionists, the land was legally purchased from their owners.

Had the Partition Plan been accepted there would have been two states living side by side at peace with one another - for the first time in history there would have been an independent Palestinian state. There need not have been any war or bloodshed, and the national aspirations of two peoples would have been fulfilled.


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on point Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. If you would care to produce a census population profile you will find I am right.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. I promise you are wrong
There are around 3 million Israeli Jews of European descent including a very recent influx of Jews from the Soviet Union totaling over a million who immigrated mostly during the early 1990s.

There are also around 3 million Israeli Jews of Asian and African descent, including about 100,000 Jews from Ethiopia who mostly came to Israel in the 1980s and 1990s.

Before the influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s, Jews from Africa/Asia made up close to 70 percent of the Jewish population of Israel.

Now it's about half.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. What an offensive post nt
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here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. lmao... n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
52. Japanese is the nationality of citizens of Japan...
Jewish isn't the nationality of citizens of Israel. There are many citizens of Israel who aren't Jewish fyi. Citizens of Israel are Israeli, and those who try to conflate 'Jewish' with 'Israeli' tend to want to do so either to make out that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitism, or out of anti-semitism...
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. Ethnic Jews and converts make up the Jewish people


More commonly known as Bnei` Israel and Citizens of the state of Israel are Israeli , but the Jews are mostly the same ethnic origin as the Jews in USA or Australia,Japan or Ethiopia,Argentina,Morrocco or France,etc , and most believe themselves to be one 'people'.


Got it?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. The nationality of Israel is Israeli, not Jewish...
Edited on Mon May-23-11 03:26 PM by Violet_Crumble
As I've already explained, it's the citizens of a state that make up a nationality of a state, so citizens of Israel are Israeli, Japan are Japanese, Australia is Australian, etc. As there are quite a few Israeli citizens who are not Jewish, what do you think their nationality is? Jewish? No, the nationality of every citizen of Israel is Israeli. And as I've already said, there are those who try to conflate the terms 'Jewish' and 'Israeli' so as to make out that any criticism of Israel is antisemitic, or by antisemites who make out that the blame for what Israel does is should lay with Jews, not the state of Israel...

Hope that's clearer and you can understand it :)
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. No ,I do not think you get the concept


of The Jewish people.

Its a Religion yes. But most Jews are secular,not religious and still members of the Jewish people.Even the atheist Jews.

OK?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Yr confusing nationality with ethnicity
You were wrong when you made out that Jew is to Israel as Japanese is to Japan. Nationality of states has been explained to you, and what you've responded with is about how being Jewish is defined, not about nationality, and it appears yr still claiming the nationality of Israel is Jewish and not Israeli, which is totally incorrect...
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I don`t think you get it.


Israel is The Jewish State . (period) No more needs be said.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. I get it just fine. Yr getting confused about nationality
What has pointing out that Israel calls itself the Jewish state got to do with the fact that the nationality of citizens of Israel is Israeli, not Jewish?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #25
60. Like what?
What special privileges does it give to "jewish religion" for instance?
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dharmamarx Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. We call the US "secular" even though it has a serious problem with Christian fundamentalism.
The idea of a multi-ethnic, multi-racial Palestinian state is far from absurd. There are plenty of Palestinians who are not Muslim; there are plenty of Palestinians Muslims who are not fundamentalists.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Replace jewish law with democratic law.
Let the people return, and then let them vote.

That's how democracy works.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #47
61. The government isn't run via "Jewish law"
The laws are secular.

They have freedom of religion, for example.
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DallasNE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
51. Oh, My Goodness
Syria is considered secular and Israel is considered non-secular. You may want to use Google to better inform yourself on such matters. It's complicated; look at the UK and the role of the Church of England for that matter.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. A Haaretz editorial, and some relevant background history are in this other thread
that started in Editorials but was relegated to the I/P forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x352876
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Corruption Winz Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great strategy for Obama...
Safety and security. Well calculated move. Hopefully, this will actually matter in the long run and hopefully people don't overlook how important this could end up becoming.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. Netanyahu 'pleased' with Obama's AIPAC address
WASHINGTON – Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's associates were satisfied by US President Barack Obama's clarifications during his address to pro-Israel lobby AIPAC in Washington, Sunday.

Netanyahu and his aides reportedly watched Obama's AIPAC speech at Blair House – the president's official guest house.

One of the associates told Ynet that the speech was "befitting," and that they were particularly pleased with Obama's clarifications about considering the 1967 borders as the basis for peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians, but not necessarily as the final ones.

Obama's statements regarding the release of kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit and the need of Hamas to abandon terror and recognize Israel also went over well.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4072373,00.html
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iamtechus Donating Member (868 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. Has Netanyahu apologized to our president yet?
The removal of that grandstanding prick should be an added "precondition".
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-22-11 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. Good and important speech.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-23-11 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
74. "The Speech Obama Should Have Given to AIPAC"
Excellent Op Ed, written as a speech by former 60 Minutes investigative journalist Barry Lando:

The Speech Obama Should have Given to AIPAC

opening excerpt:




My fellow Americans, I could say it is an honor to speak again before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. I could also dish out the usual rhetoric you expect from American political leaders of both parties—an emotional, iron-clad guarantee to maintain America’s undying support for Israel, the embattled outpost of democracy, and so on and on and on, to great applause.

But, as befits a conversation among longtime friends, I’d rather be frank.

As we all know, the reason I’m here is because you are the most powerful lobby in Washington. The mightiest senators and House members live in terror of your disapproval, and your support will be a key factor in the coming presidential elections.








Therefore, as president of the United States—of all Americans—I am today announcing a change in policy toward the Middle East. I have decided that we will no longer stand in the way of a United Nations resolution next September to recognize the existence of a Palestinian state. I realize that resolution will not actually create a state—but it may be the best way to start the process.

I am also calling once again on the government of Israel to cease the construction of illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank. I made that same request not long after I became president but I backed down when Prime Minister Netanyahu refused. I was wrong to back down. It will not happen again.

The Israeli government charges that Hamas is a terrorist organization. It is, and we have labeled it as such. I call upon Hamas to reconsider its aims if it truly wants to achieve a settlement with Israel.

On the other hand, other violent groups once labeled terrorist organizations—such as the Irish Republican Army—changed their tactics amid the lure of peace negotiations. Indeed, at one time in their careers two of Israel’s most renowned leaders—Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir—were condemned as terrorists.


I realize this new policy may well subject me to a barrage of the most virulent political attacks—from right-wing TV talk shows to lurid ads filling our media to congressional resolutions. It will be charged that all along I—Barack Hussein Obama—have been secretly plotting with radical Islam to destroy Israel—and after Israel, the United States.

They will say, of course, that I am anti-Semitic—a charge that is leveled these days against any prominent individual who criticizes the current conservative government of Israel. An irony, since—as I’ve said—some of the strongest attacks on Israel’s current policies come from Israeli Jewish commentators and politicians themselves.

I understand the emotional storm that is roiling this audience right now—I can hear the boos and catcalls. I can feel your enormous upset. But I ask you, members of AIPAC, before you and your allies start an attack against me in the media and in the Congress and in communities across the country, by unleashing such a massive campaign isn’t there a danger you would demonstrate to the American people exactly the point I have been making in this speech? That is, the extent to which your lobby has distorted the workings of our democratic system.





Full article here

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Obama getting attacked from all directions for this speech
With some people, he really just can't win.

We knew that was true with respect to the folks on the RW, sadly, those aren't the only ones giving him grief these days.
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2banon Donating Member (794 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-24-11 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. An attack?
This wasn't a personal attack on Obama. It was a clamor for direct, frank, and an intellectually honest discussion on the issues of concern regarding the ME and moving forward, from the dias. We don't have honest and frank discussions in this country on just about any issue. We have pre-packaged double speak most of the time and particularly on the matter of the ME. That article was simply written and published to illustrate what a frank discussion might (ought) to look like.. such a speech would be a refreshing and much more meaningful change in the way we manage this endless kabuki dance to the detriment of our treasury and the lives of so many people.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-11 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
81. kr
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