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cory777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:03 PM
Original message
World's oceans in 'shocking' decline
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 04:04 PM by cory777
Source: BBC News

The oceans are in a worse state than previously suspected, according to an expert panel of scientists.

In a new report, they warn that ocean life is "at high risk of entering a phase of extinction of marine species unprecedented in human history".

They conclude that issues such as over-fishing, pollution and climate change are acting together in ways that have not previously been recognised.

The impacts, they say, are already affecting humanity.


Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13796479



News that Matters http://activistnews.blogspot.com/
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FLPanhandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Shocking"?
To whom!?!

Who hasn't seen this coming from miles away? Studies have shown we will have effectively fished out the oceans for food in the next 50 years.

What person in a cave is "shocked" by this?
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Same people who are shocked that the earth is a synergetic system
and screwing up one part of the system affects the whole planet.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. exactly
It's sad how so many people are ignorant of that very simple and logical fact.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. ignorant, or.....denial?
I often wonder.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think it's an unhealthy mix of both
My father, with a Ph.d, is a climate change denier, I'm said to say, and he's not ignorant. He honestly believes (or has convinced himself of) the idea that 6 billion humans in an ecosystem couldn't possibly have any affect on the weather.

Yeah, I know.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. If you saw the report from Australia the other day, their GW scientists lives are threatened-- !!
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 09:27 PM by defendandprotect
When we look at BP -- at Fukushima -- at Global Warming --

at the immense pollution of the earth by capitalists and the MIC we have to

ask are our world scientists being gagged -- completely gagged?

I'm guess .... YES!!!

Meanwhile, the internet is the best way to get info out on Global Warming

we have to work harder at that -- !!


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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-11 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
91. i read that article, they moved various scientists, from geologists to weather
meteorologists........to a high security building because the ProFetus crowd has begun sending hatemail and the usual death threats beyond their usual targets........they hate those who dare say the earth is older than 6000 years, etc etc
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Author wasn't shy about using hyperbole, but the threats are very real. Thanks for posting.
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avebury Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. I was looking at my property on Google Earth last night. Here's what I saw.


"Because of a sharp decline in their numbers, the entire salmon fishing season in the ocean off California and Oregon was canceled in both 2008 and 2009. At no other time in history has this salmon fishery been closed. The species in the most danger is the California coho salmon. Quest looks at efforts to protect the coho in Northern California and explores the important role salmon play in the native ecosystem."


It was strange because not only was I surprised to see that there are people on my property conducting salmon research, but I was asking about where the Red Snapper comes from when at the store the other day. And the reply was Canada, because our fishing isn't allowed due to low numbers of fish.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. "unprecedented in human history"
Ironically, it is human history that has caused it.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. the people who have been working on fish farming and hydroponic farming
for the last 20 years are not "shocked."

Sometimes it sucks to be right.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Except fish farms don't produce healthy fish -- it also sucks -- !!
Viruses and worms -- etal -- not a natural system --

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. Anyone who is "shocked" hasn't been paying attention.
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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. 'Shocking' state of seas threatens mass extinction, say marine experts
Source: The Guardian

Fish, sharks, whales and other marine species are in imminent danger of an "unprecedented" and catastrophic extinction event at the hands of humankind, and are disappearing at a far faster rate than anyone had predicted, a study of the world's oceans has found.

Mass extinction of species will be "inevitable" if current trends continue, researchers said.

Overfishing, pollution, run-off of fertilisers from farming and the acidification of the seas caused by increasing carbon dioxide emissions are combining to put marine creatures in extreme danger, according to the report from the International Programme on the State of the Ocean (Ipso), prepared at the first international workshop to consider all of the cumulative stresses affecting the oceans at Oxford University.

The international panel of marine experts said there was a "high risk of entering a phase of extinction of marine species unprecedented in human history". They said the challenges facing the oceans created "the conditions associated with every previous major extinction of species in Earth's history".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/20/marine-life-oceans-extinction-threat
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. We never seem to learn
:(
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Humans are on the die-out list too. Once we are gone, the rest of the planet can recover.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Well, probably another evolutionary bottleneck.
Where billions die and ten thousand stand for seed.

What we don't know is how quick and dreadful it will be.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Insane.

Or is that some kind of consolation prize for a failure so massive?

I don't give a damn for the planet if there's not going to be human life on it. Wishing we'd go extinct so the planet could recover is senseless. That's not a recovery. It's like wishing you and your extended family would die so the bacteria in their bodies could have a feast. You're kidding yourself if you think you could appreciate a "recovered" earth with humankind extinct. Since you yourself would be dead, you won't even be able to enjoy it the way you would novel, detached from all of it.

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. We are clever, not wise.
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. true. as a species, we've evolved mentally; while stagnating & at times regressing, in wisdom. n/t
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. There's too many people using too much.
A friend told me opening China and exposing them to consumerism was suicide for the human race.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. We're animals, and we're like any animal.

The problem is overpopulation brought about by our massive success. Don't think that human beings are any more avaricious than other species. We're not. Every species would populate the earth the way we have if it could. There is no species that's adapted to suppressing its own population.

We've avoided population crashes before because we're so clever. Unfortunately, every time we avoided them, our population grew. So, now we're facing a massive crash.

Any measure that they take to save the oceans are going to mean some people are not going to get fed. It's going to mean that many are going to lose jobs. It's going to mean that oil and energy resources can't be reached, and since our food supply is directly tied to energy, it means people are going to starve.

We're at the end of it. There's going to be a mass human die-off.

Whether it's going to end in extinction, though, is unanswered. I think human beings might just survive.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. In the past, great civilization grew until they used up
resources. When the water and soil was used up, they moved to greener pastures and started over again.

We are running out of places to move.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. Yes, you're right, and . . .
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 11:48 PM by caseymoz
Every advance that has avoided a crash has been followed by a further growth in population. Instead of controlling our population, we pushed it further. Example: in the '70s, there was the Green Revolution. This subsequently led to a doubling of the population over the next thirty years. So, now we have twice the strain we did then.

Agriculture itself was probably an adjustment to the fact that humans were such superior hunters, we swiftly depleted all the game in an area. A tribe quickly cleared an area of game and the human population had grown to where they couldn't freely move to another area. They either had to fight another tribe and lose half their warriors if they won, or face annihilation if they lost. If they won, they would quickly deplete that area, too. So, they developed agriculture. Given how malnourished people apparently became after adopting it (recent story), I've got to think it was a life or death decision.

Again, it's not anything another animal wouldn't have done. We're not mentally adapted to think in terms of restricting the population for the good of the species. No animal is. Any individuals who restrain their reproduction are superseded by those who won't. And birth control technology came along a little too late for our minds to adapt anyway.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. "We are really smart about really stupid things -- !!"
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
48. We know the names of the Kardasians
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. True -- it's the "I Love Lucy" effect ... at a time when our nation moved into atomic era!!!
And, what Americans were told to do was space out with Lucy --

buy homes which will keep you busy --

and by all means understand that there's no need to "Ban the bomb!" because

only spies want to do that -- and we have a wonderful new invention for you ...

nuclear reactors -- !!

Which we will use to boil water to create steam -- !!!


Unbelievable -- :hi:

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. We have met the enemy and it is us.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Well, yes and no -- all of the TVs need to be tossed into the closet -- !!
It's the major propaganda box --

:evilgrin:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. TV and air conditioning has destroyed our sense of community.
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JosefK Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. Cars are more to blame...
If there was public transportation & $10/gallon gas as in Europe, Americans would be much less narcissistic & myopic, as they'd be forced to rub elbows with people they wouldn't normally do so.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Remember the movie "Avalon"?
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. So it's true. The sky IS falling.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. No, the sea is boiling.

Well, not quite yet. That's an exaggeration.
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JJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Is the reason few care because....
people are on prescription antidepressants?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Sadly...seems statistics verify your view.....
If I had time I'd look up our "Nation on Anti-Depressants" including our kids..

But, I figure most folks here reading are savvy enough to look up the Google for: "Americans on Anti-Depressants" and find an article or two that will link to other articles.

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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. No, the reason why is, WTF can I do?
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 07:56 PM by caseymoz
There's no good solution to this. And if you can't get government and corporations behind you, then there's absolutely no way to do anything about it.

Government and corporations could at least direct massive amounts of human effort at the problem. But government has been made ineffective. Corporations have to be concerned with beating their quarterly forecasts.

In other words, human beings intelligent enough to see exactly what's happening, just not socially adapted in a way to do anything significant about it. Doing something significant requires a lot of directed cumulative effort.

Evolution never mentally prepared us for this problem. We could only fight with others of our kind about it.

Don't knock anti-depressants. They get me through the day when this and other problems are quite apparent, and unsolvable. Perhaps anti-depressants aren't the reason people aren't doing anything. They definitely don't stop people from taking action or make them lazy. Perhaps so many people take them because there are so many major problems with no good solution.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. Liberal leadership is taken out as soon as it rises ....
via rw political violence -- this has been going on openly since 11/22/63 --

Meanwhile, if you read the article last week re Australia, their Global Warming

scientists' lives are being threatened --

Notice that we are hearing nothing from our world scientists on Global Warming --

on BP/Gulf disasters -- on Fuku -- Ozone -- whatever --

and even in case of Fuku we note that world governments seem disinterested!!!

Is that believable?

Of course not -- this effects the entire planet -- !!


Capitalism is suicidal -- and it will take us all with them!

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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
77. That's part of the problem-- we're not socially adapted.

Really, part of the reason why we can't organize to save the oceans is that we tend to faction, and there's too much mistrust between factions.

Capitalism isn't as harmful as the blind faith in capitalism in the post-Cold War world. In the 1960s when Nixon created the EPA, capitalists had doubts about the system. They had caution.

Now with the ascendance Ayn Rand's philosophy, at least in the way it has indirectly influenced thinking, capitalists have no caution, no doubts about it. They think the collapse of communism signaled that capitalism is demonstrated as the only working system. They not only have no doubt, but they feel no need to compromise.

Actually, the collapse was of the Bolshevistic branch of brutal, statist Communism and the fall indicated nothing about capitalism being supreme.

Capitalism in the last twenty years has certainly been doing its level best to prove Karl Marx right after all.

Other than that, I have heard enough from scientists about Global Warming. The propaganda campaign against it has been impressive, though.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. This is just too depressing...
It seems inevitable to me; so few are paying attention
to what the Mother is trying to say about our careless
treatment of the nest.

BHN
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. This planet has had several mass extinctions before humankind ever came along. And
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 07:00 PM by totodeinhere
after our species becomes extinct there will probably be several more mass extinctions. In fact, more than 97% of all species that have ever lived on Earth have already gone extinct and most of those extinctions happened pre-homo sapien. So what's the big deal? It's all a part of nature.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. yeah..just give up...it's just inevtible...and after "Extinction.coms Rebirth!" Heard this befor
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 07:27 PM by KoKo
from Climate Change Denyers!
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. So do you dispute my facts? Do you disagree that 97% of all species that ever lived on Earth
have gone extinct already? If you do you had better bone up on your science. I don't see what this has to do with climate change denial. In this case, science is on my side, not the other way around.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
40. Dispute your non-facts .... Global Warming is changing weather systems, creating more earthquakes ..
which in turn create new volcanic activity --

Century of erupting oil from underground is also insane --

for all we know oil is the earth's ballast -- !!


There is one thing we know for sure --

Americans are really smart about really stupid things --
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. What are you talking about.? What non-facts did I mention? I did not dispute the existence of
global warming. I stated facts about past extinctions of life on earth. I wasn't even aware that we were discussing global warming.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. You're suggesting Global Warming is "part of nature" -- that's false ...
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. I didn't even mention global warming. Please quote where I said that
"Global Warming is 'part of nature.'" I did not say that. I said that extinctions are a part of nature, which is true. But I did not mention global warming. Please don't put words in my mouth. Doing that is offensive.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Your #14 above ....
Edited on Tue Jun-21-11 08:22 PM by defendandprotect
This planet has had several mass extinctions before humankind ever came along. And

after our species becomes extinct there will probably be several more mass extinctions. In fact, more than 97% of all species that have ever lived on Earth have already gone extinct and most of those extinctions happened pre-homo sapien. So what's the big deal? It's all a part of nature.


IT'S ALL PART OF NATURE --






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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. I didn't see any mention of "global warming" in my text that you quoted.
Edited on Tue Jun-21-11 09:33 PM by totodeinhere
I was talking about the subject of this thread which is extinctions. You bolded "So what's the big deal? It's all a part of nature." Humm. I don't see "global warming" mentioned in the bolded text either.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. The thread is about the POLLUTION of our oceans ... there is nothing "natural" about it ...
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Ok fine. We can discuss pollution of our oceans, but now you are changing the subject.
Before you said "You're suggesting Global Warming is "part of nature" -- that's false ..." That's what I am responding to. How many times do have to repeat myself? I did not mention global warming. Sheesh. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. As I said above . . .

That's simply insane and no consolation. This planet means nothing to me if humankind is extinct. Nothing. I don't care how many times it "recovers." I don't care if it falls into the damn sun after we're gone. What's the big deal? Think of you and your entire extended family dead. Now, come up with a consolation. Oh, maybe some poorer families can live in their houses. Or perhaps at least, mice and cockroaches will. In fact, they'll flourish. Are you consoled?

You're totally out of touch if you believe the extinction of humankind isn't far sadder than that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. In fact, for anyone who loves nature ... and understood the glory of it --
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 09:42 PM by defendandprotect
to see it now is to be embarrassed --

What's left of our trees but thin ribbons along highways --

Capitalism is one of the foulest systems ever invented -- in 500 years we have

destroyed this continent -- and much, much more --



Nature never yet betrayed the heart that loves her -

But we have certainly betrayed nature in our stuidity of chasing a dollar -- !!

What can we do with a dollar bill -- plant it -- eat it -- stare at it and see a sunset?



sigh -- excuse the rant --

Thanks for your post -- :)
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
43. I think it's a rather selfish attitude to think that somehow our species is any
more special than any other. As I said, many species have gone extinct already. Yet the earth survived. And after our species goes extinct the earth will survive as well. Homo sapiens are just another of many species to have walked this planet. We are nothing more or less than that unless you want to believe some religious bullshit.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. I never said it was special in the objective sense . . .
Edited on Tue Jun-21-11 12:43 AM by caseymoz
But switching your affections from the human species to the earth as a whole, or to some unnamed set of species in general, just to feel like it's not such a crisis after all is not objective either. If you want to know, that's resorting to religious bullshit so you'd feel less sadness and panic. If you don't feel affection toward the human species because it's "not special," then there's no reason to feel it's a good thing that any species survives.

I'll admit, I can't make myself objective about it. Humans are special because they are my children, my relatives, my friends, the entire social network that defines my life. If you don't think the death of your children, grandchildren, friends and relatives makes more of a difference to you than the extinction of the Eastern Mountain Lion, then you're too alienated to reason with. However, I don't think you're that way. I think you just don't want to feel the full impact of this. I can't blame you.

(Added with edit: Plus, you're probably pissed at the rest of the species for doing this environmental damage. I can't blame you for that, either. Except I have to point out that it's a result of population growth, something that every species will do. And it the short range in enabled you to have friends, relatives, children and grandchildren. In other words, it probably wasn't avoidable, up until too recently.)

Really, the earth without the human species, to me, seems like the the tree that falls in the forest with nobody to hear it. Did it really fall? And more significantly, should anyone reading about the hypothetical tree falling even care? Why?

And worse, if you insist on being alienated from this: the information that humankind has accumulated and its entire cautionary tale will be lost. Any species that develops will have our same Darwinian drive to reproduce itself to maximum success according to its inclusive fitness. Any other species with a chance of developing our intelligence and mastery will have no way of learning from us and no way to avoid the population trap we've put ourselves into. I'll remind you our sun is old, and it took some 4 billion years for the earth to develop us. Terrestrial species won't get too many more chances before our sun burns out.

So, objectively speaking, any way you slice it, this will be a loss for the earth, too.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. Holy shit, man. You don't seem to get it, do you?
This isn't about you, and it's not about your little species.

It's bigger than all of that.

There's nothing particularly special about primates with oversized brains that soiled all that they touched. The world may be a better place without them.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. To copy & paste what I wrote above to totodeinhere

"But switching your affections from the human species to the earth as a whole, or to some unnamed set of species in general, just to feel like it's not such a crisis after all is not objective either. If you want to know, that's resorting to religious bullshit so you'd feel less sadness and panic. If you don't feel affection toward the human species because it's "not special," then there's no reason to feel it's a good thing that any species survives.

"I'll admit, I can't make myself objective about it. Humans are special because they are my children, my relatives, my friends, the entire social network that defines my life. If you don't think the death of your children, grandchildren, friends and relatives makes more of a difference to you than the extinction of the Eastern Mountain Lion, then you're too alienated to reason with. However, I don't think you're that way. I think you just don't want to feel the full impact of this. I can't blame you.

"Really, the earth without the human species, to me, seems like the the tree that falls in the forest with nobody to hear it. Did it really fall? And more significantly, should anyone reading about the hypothetical tree falling even care? Why?

"And worse, if you insist on being alienated from this: the information that humankind has accumulated and its entire cautionary tale will be lost. Any species that develops will have our same Darwinian drive to reproduce itself to maximum success according to its inclusive fitness. Any other species with a chance of developing our intelligence and mastery will have no way of learning from us and no way to avoid the population trap we've put ourselves into. I'll remind you our sun is old, and it took some 4 billion years for the earth to develop us. Terrestrial species won't get too many more chances before our sun burns out.

"So, objectively speaking, any way you slice it, this will be a loss for the earth, too."

To the Stranger, in addition: Okay, the human species isn't special. Why should one consider anything on earth special?

You really don't get it do you? It's not about your little earth and every other species on the planet. If you don't care about humankind, why should you care about any species? It depends on where your anger ends and where your pseudo-religion begins, and that isn't objectivity.

Thing is, you're pissed off at the human species. That's why you could easily say "it's not really about your little species." Um, it's still your species, pal. Our species not objectively any worse if you study Darwinistic inclusive fitness. It's also the life form that makes up your children, your grandchildren, your friends, and your relatives. Except for the occasional pet, I think it's correct to guess that's where your affections really lie if you're honest about it and stop attempting to abstract yourself due to anger.

Just because the animals that piss you off the most happen to be human doesn't give you the right to feel deluded that humankind is not where your affections and interests really lie.


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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. But it goes beyond the human race pissing me off.
It is the REASONS why the human race pisses me off.

I'm not going to give the human race a pass because I am human. Nor am I going to excuse this particular species and its destruction of the environment and other species simply because I love other humans.

"Where my affections and interests really lie" is irrelevant to the issue. The planet is being destroyed, and we are to blame.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. Even if you're angry at the reasons why

To be angry at people in their entirety in favor of the planet is a kind of moral blindness. The planet shows no conscious state whatsoever. If it did, it would be leading humankind now and giving commands without the aid of people like yourself getting angry for it. It could do without your anger in its favor either way. I'll say it's environmentally irrelevant because your emotion is unstuck from anything real . It's simply misanthropy given a purportedly noble excuse, and can only piss people off. On the macro-scale, it can only cause wars, large and small, which will aggravate the environmental damage and cause further intransigence and even vindictiveness.

I get angry at particular people, particular factions doing harmful things and damaging the planet as an ecosystem for humankind. Otherwise, I can forgive humankind as a whole because we evolved to do just what we're doing. If any animal were as successful as we are, they would be doing the same thing. They would be facing the same problems because according to Darwinism, there's not a species that has ever evolved that's adapted to limit its own population. Period. Any species, if allowed, will grow until it depletes its resources, fouls its environment and either adapts, moves, or suffers a population crash. We see this over and over again with invasive species. Without any predators, the population will grow as fast and as large as it can. No species limit its population. They don't try, either. Humankind is the only species that has made the effort.

The only reason why we're in this perilous situation is: we were clever enough to avoid population crashes due to depleted resources many times. So, we've built up a huge population dependent on untouched energy resources that have built up in the earth for eons. Now those resources are harder to get, they are running out, and they cause environmental wreckage on a scale never seen before due to the numbers we're supporting.

Who's staring catastrophe in the face? We are. I don't give a shit about the earth by comparison. To me, the home is not as important as the lives of my family inside.

But if our home is being fouled, we have to figure out something better to do besides fight about it and incite hatred humankind in favor of the earth. The latter is a cultish, quasi-religious way to see it. It's not rational in the least. As I said, the earth isn't conscious. It isn't going to thank you for fighting for the "righteous" cause. Even if you argue that point, if it's conscious, it should be too powerful to need your help anyway and would laugh at you as an apostle for your insignificance.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. This is true, however given that it is humans who seem to be such a diving force
behind the next extinction it's hard not to feel some guilt, you know?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. It isn't "humans" -- it's the few violent elites among us --
Capitalism is a system intended to move the wealth and natural resources of a nation

from the many to the few -- it's based on exploitation of nature, natural resources

and animal-life -- and humans ...

according to various myths of "inferiority" -- of females, AA's, people of color,

Native Americans, homosexuals --


Note the licenses granted by male-supremacist religions to the few to exploit --

i.e., "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --


Most Americans have been taught that capitalism is synonymous with democracy --

in fact they are complete opposites --

And most Americans aren't suicidal so they have a great problem in reaching that

conclusion about capitalism and its war on nature --





Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized Patriarchal Religion -- and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity


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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. That's just the way it is. Do you think that primitive man felt guilt over their role in
the extinction of the woolly mammoth? I doubt it. If mankind has a roll in the extinction of some species, that is not unprecedented in the history of our planet. Inter-species competition has resulted in other extinctions in the past, again before mankind had even evolved. It is the natural way of things.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Two massive differences. 1st is that humans, mostly, have evolved past the primitive
Edited on Tue Jun-21-11 01:35 AM by Turborama
2nd, we are talking about a mass extinction event here, not losing one species. Never in the multi billion year history of our planet has one species caused a mass extinction event. In fact, the last mass extinction was 65,000,000 years ago, well before humans arrived.

Look it up.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mass+extinction+event&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. Nonsense -- there is no guarantee that this planet will keep turning given the amount of damage ....
exploding nuclear weapons in outer space for one --

testing nuclear weapons all over -- in our oceans -- underground --

for what? A MIC based on more corporate BS -- ?

We're buying gasoline in Afghanistan for $1,000 a gallon from KBR --

Tha would run a helicopter for about a minute!

Just what the world needed -- an atomic era!!



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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. No, it's not nonsense. This planet has survived collisions with asteroids or comets that resulted in
the extinction of 90% of life living on this planet at the time. And when the next big one hits hopefully some life will survive that as well. And anything that mankind has done to this planet will pale in comparison.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
61. Of course it is .... we have two nuclear reactors in every state -- poorly maintained and old ....
We set off an atomic era which obviously impacted the planet --

for cripes sake the dams and reservoirs our US Army engineers built over the

last half century are "impacting the rotation of the earth" --


We have no idea what effect on the planet our releasing from underground portends --

oil may be the earth's ballast --


Fuku has moved the earth off it's axis by 3 inches -- and every earthquake will

subsequently have a similar effect --


Global Warming is the HEATING of the atmosphere -- the melting of glaciers --

which causes more earthquakes and more severe earthquakes.

Global Warming will bring more chaotic weather -- more droughts/floods, more storms,

more hurricanes, more cyclones and more tornados. Not only in increasing numbers but

in severity.


There is no guarantee the planet will keep turning --

but obviously it will soon be unfit for survival of the human species.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. kr
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blank space Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
38. To all you Americans - honestly - how
much responsibility do you take for this ?

Rampant consumerism is without doubt the Number One hall mark of America - America has out-consumed, out polluted the rest of the planet COMBINED for decades ? Your CO2 out put is the number one reason we are where we are at, yet your nation being the primary driving factor behind this social malaise have been the number one factor in obstructing any solution.

AS a question - how many of you are prepared to accept the greatest level of responsibility and how many of you are going to take offense and defend your position citing your personal position as justification for your national position ?

I just want to know this.....
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bengalherder Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #38
55. I'm not.
I've lived in frugal poverty for most of my adult life. I consciously took a job that benefits society in a way that is not financially recognized. I probably have a lifestyle as frugal as any European. My take- home pay has never exceeded $14,000 a year, I buy truly durable goods (most of my stuff is approaching middle age) use public transit and my only vices are the internet, beer and weed.

Many of my countrymen and women do have something to answer for, however, you can't really generalize.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
62. This is capitalism's exploitation -- the public has little choice in this --
Remove the natural remedies for health for birth control for surviving without

basing your life on a dollar bill and we are all in the hands of royals who

morphed into elites/corporations --

If they couldn't demand wealth from citizens, then they could force them into

working for "corporations" to survive --

Americans have been forced off the land as elites have taken over almost all of

nature --

for cripes sake we don't even have access or knowledge about natural plants any

longer which are our drugs/medicines!!
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. reminds me of the Bolero from Allegro Non Troppo
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Yeah!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. More from him: "Freedom."
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
57. Marine life facing mass extinction, report says
Source: CNN

London (CNN) -- Marine life is under severe threat from global warming, pollution and habitat loss, with a high risk of "major extinctions" according to a panel of experts.

These are the conclusions of a distinguished group of marine scientists who met at Oxford University, England, in April to discuss the impact of human activity on the world's oceans.

The meeting, led by the International Programme on the State of the Ocean (IPSO), examined the combined effects of pollution, acidification, ocean warming, over-fishing and depleting levels of oxygen in the water.

The panel found that oceanic conditions are similar to those of "previous major extinctions of species in Earth's history," and that we face losing marine species and entire marine ecosystems, such as coral reefs, within a single generation.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/21/ocean.extinction.global.warming/
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. It seems entirely likely.
We've overgrown the planet's ability to cope with our population, I'm afraid. That's why I decided not to reproduce, way back in 1965. The warnings were already there.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I agree with you, MineralMan...
My wife and I decided not to have kids for very much the same reason. My fear is that kids today are going to be living in a very different and much more difficult world by the time they reach my age (45). It saddens me that many will never know what the environment was like when I was a kid with many amazing species gone.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. I had only one for same reason and I fear for him
Edited on Tue Jun-21-11 05:19 PM by wordpix
and all the kids. There are going to be some sad things going down unless/until people control their population.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
66. Where are we going? How did we get into this handbasket? What can we do about it?
To mods: I wrote this article, so I'm posting most of it.

The destruction of the oceans is not, of course an isolated event. To anyone who has taken even a cursory look, it's obvious that we are fouling our nest and trashing the entire neighbourhood. Climate change, Peak oil, food supply limits and rising food prices, the debt crisis, the governance crisis, the destruction of habitats, fresh water supplies and soil fertility, deforestation, overpopulation in all its delightful manifestations - these are all symptoms of an underlying problem. This is one of my ongoing attempts to describe where I think the problem came from and something we might do about it.

http://paulchefurka.ca/NaturalOrder.html
I think that the modern crisis of civilization had its origins in three interconnected events. The first was the development of agriculture and food storage - described by Jared Diamond as "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race" and brought into public consciousness by Daniel Quinn in his novel "Ishmael". Then there was the development of technology in general as a means for expanding our manipulation of the world - the alienation and domination that result from the use of modern technology have been explored by John Zerzan and notoriously described by Ted Kaczynski in his Manifesto. The third event was the development of money, which is an abstraction of the value of human activity and lets us disconnect the very idea of value from the activities that actually create or embody it. Together these three developments - of agriculture, technology and money - made civilization possible.

Underlying these three pillars of civilization, forming the ground on which they stand, is one more fundamental, but rather abstract concept. It is our sense of Separation. When we gained self-awareness thanks to the evolutionary development of our neocortex, this new perception automatically split the universe into two categories: "me" and "not-me". That inescapable duality permeates the entire human experience, and makes possible all the manipulation, domination and exploitation of which we are capable. Of course our self-awareness is also what makes us human and enables our truly great achievements, so in a real sense it is both our greatest glory and our tragic flaw.

By 3,000 BCE the foundation was complete - on the base of self/other separation we had erected the tripod of agriculture, technology and money. Once that structure was in place, the rest of our civilization was pretty much a foregone conclusion. Populations urbanized into villages, towns and cities; hierarchies developed as people began to see that power could be consolidated through money and protected by technology; laws were codified to enshrine and protect the privileges of power; those who objected were brought under the law to be reformed or extinguished as the situation demanded. Eventually, in a monstrous transgenic experiment, a portion of our humanity - our very personhood - was carved out by legal surgeons and implanted into hierarchic, money-based hives called corporations. The rest, as they say, is history.

So what do we do about this sad state of affairs: seven billion alienated beings, removed from our evolutionary physical and social habitat, working in hierarchies as indentured servants in service to a concept of "progress" that none of us had any say in defining?

Well, one thing we can't do is go back to the past. Bells can't be un-rung, and our activities have irrevocably altered the situation and closed off the possibility of returning to some halcyon past. We can't erase our knowledge of agriculture, technology or money. Those pillars of civilization can be reworked to be less harmful, through such ideas as permaculture, the use of "green" technologies, legal limits on the manipulation of money and political action against the excesses of hierarchies - but they can't be eliminated at this point.

The most effective action we can take, in my opinion, comes from examining the ground on which that tripod is erected - our sense of separation. If I was able to truly understand that there is a deep connection between you and me, between animals, plants and me, between me and every aspect of the world, if I was able to see that there is actually no difference between you and me - that we are the same and anything I do to you I am doing to myself - that understanding would change all my actions.

This is why I champion the development of individual consciousness. I see it as the most effective action one person can take against the negative effects of the system of civilization. With the clarity of perception that such development brings I can understand what's going on around me, and see opportunities for change in my own circumstances. Interestingly, non-dualist philosophies such as Taoism and Buddhism contain strong streams of anarchism. There is a good historical foundation for this approach to social change. On another continent, the African ethical system of ubuntu also supports the development of a holistic, interdependent view of human relationships, though without the anarchist flavouring.

How might such consciousness-raising change my behaviour? Well, it could prompt a very wide variety of new actions. My new course might involve political action, or it might not. It might involve direct action against the systems of oppression, or I might choose to remove myself from them. It could involve the building of new, more human-scale communities that bring some positive qualities of tribal life back into the modern world. It will probably involve refusal of one sort or another - the refusal of material values, of competition, of hierarchic subservience, of imposed fear, of being yet another sheep. It will insist on the autonomy that springs from my sense of self-worth, and will require me to give selflessly to the others-that-are-now-me so that we all might prosper.

Such a course of action might not result in the immediate removal of hierarchies or the other sources of alienation from the social landscape, but it will inevitably advance the human condition in some degree. If you wish to topple kings, the surest way is to remove the ground they are standing on. "We are One" is the essential revolutionary awareness that can accomplish that task.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #66
81. Interesting, but elites need to convert nature into $$$$$$ .... for power ....
Patriarchy, organized patriarchal religion -- and their invention --

capitalism is where the problem lies -- with "The Unholy Trinity" --

\

Do you recall "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --

do you recall Papal Bulls seeking the enslavement of the native American

and the African here -- or their deaths?

These are organized patriarchal religion's licenses to the elite to exploit --

not only nature, animal life, natural resources -- but human beings, as well ...

according to various myths of "inferiority" by gender, race, sexual orientation --

creed.

These systems and hierarchies were put in place millennia ago -- the underlying

basis for it male violence vs women -- we are the only species where the males

of the species are at war with the females -- to the death, in fact, if you

see what has happened in India and other countries with the disappearance of females!


What we are suffering is the violence and insanity of the few among us --

and we have never found a solution to it --

whether they were demanding someone's property and threatening them -

or whether they were confiscating our wate and our seeds!

It's still the same!

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-11 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. I generally agree, except it's not just an elite that's to blame.
Ask Joe Average American/Frenchman/Aussie/Japanese/Brit/Kiwi/German/Greek if they would willingly give up their TV, car, central heating and A/C, and most of their money to help ease the burden on the planet. The answer you will get in the vast majority of cases is, "Not just no, but Hell No!" That answer tells you that it's not just the Rockefellers and Buffets that are to blame. We have met the enemy, and he is us.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Wait ... when Average Joe undestands that he may not be able to survive on
Edited on Wed Jun-22-11 11:49 PM by defendandprotect
this planet -- or that there are serious problems with the vegetation --

then without doubt they would listen to liberal leadership based on common sense

re Global Warming and what is actually going on --


It has been that LACK of leadership -- that SILENCE -- which has permitted the rightwing

and oil industry to spread lies about Global Warming.

Why wouldn't they give up a car which is giving their kids asthma and costing them a

fortune for an electric car -- or a converted electric car -- with solar batteries?

Government should be paying for converting cars now and getting all the gasoline driven

cars off the roads --

Subsidizing manufacture of electric cars ONLY -- and subsidizing purchase of electric cars ONLY.

Our government paid to put a gasoline station on every corner -- they can pay to put

electric posts along streets and in parking lots!


And if you believe that the Enron Monopoly way of providing electricity is all there is then

the nation is seriously deprived of info --

We don't have to drag electricity across states -- that sucks!

We can put generators in large buildings like libraries and hospitals -- department stores.


We can use solar power -- our lamp posts here in our town are run on solar now.

How is it you haven't even heard of solar or wind power?

During the Enron "crisis" in only 3 months they put up wind machines which provided electricity

for 178,000 homes!!

And why do you think it would cost them more money?

Are the wars costing them nothing?

We're paying KBR $1,000 for a gallon of gas to run our helicopters in Afghanistan!!


When reality hits Average Joe, he'll be begging for these changes!!






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Evasporque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
71. But we gots dominion - Jezus sez so.
Redneck justification to human impact.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
72. get used to eating more chicken.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #72
90. If you notice the effect that ...
Global Warming is having on vegetation even now don't think they'll

be too many animals around to eat -- !!

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janburns96 Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
82. soon we have 8 billion humans
to fuck up the world and the poor defenseless creatures we're supposed to share the planet with are dying. What the hell is wrong with us people? 500 million humans on the world is even way too much. The earth is dying because of greed and people breeding like cockroaches and rabbits. We needs sensible solutions to make it so people don't reproduce so much so we can reduce the human populations to sustainable levels that the planet and other species can handle. We need to return our populations to a natural ecological balance.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
83. K&R nt
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eringer Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-11 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
86. Looks as though the writers of "Soylent Green" script were spot on
Great divide between the rich and the rest of the people in the U.S. Police are corrupt and maintaining a young plaything is merely another perk of the rich. AND THE OCEANS ARE DYING. I hope that the remake is released before the next presidential election. I am sure that it would make a lot of righties very nervous.
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-11 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
87. Not to worry ... Jeebus will save us. n/t
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The Nexus Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-11 08:05 AM
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88. The right will call it "Ted Dansen Part II" nt
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