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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:53 PM
Original message
Mutiny in the Ranks
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4766616/

Neophyte Iraqi soldiers refused to follow U.S. orders only to find themselves stripped of their jobs—and their uniforms.

<snip>The Iraqi soldiers were brought to Shulla, an impoverished community where adrenaline-charged Shiite militants were angry about the detention of one of Sadr’s top aides. Zubaidy said that his U.S. officers ordered Iraqi soldiers to open fire on the angry crowd in Shulla. “The American officers hysterically ordered us to shoot the 'traitors',” he recalls, “We were not asked beforehand to go fight our people in Shulla. If we had been….we would have resigned at the camp right away.”

Many Iraqi soldiers refused to fire, abandoned their weapons and fled from the scene, says Zubaidy. Another soldier from the battalion, Hamid Tamimi from Dijeil district in Salahuddin province, says some Iraqi troops even turned against the Americans and opened fire on U.S. personnel while chanting slogans and songs glorifying Sadr and his late father. A number of Iraqi soldiers did stay by the side of the Americans, Tamimi says, mostly from Kurdish militias. But most soldiers from Iraq’s predominately Shiite southern cities fought against the Americans, he alleges.

A number of residents in Shulla, some of whom took up arms against U.S. troops, have similar accounts. Hayder al-Maliki, 26, received minor wounds in the leg and the scalp from U.S. gunfire. He alleges that he witnessed American personnel open fire on Iraqi soldiers they refused to fight alongside the U.S. and sided with pro-Sadr forces. “In the beginning the Americans tried to push the Iraqi army into the fight. But when many of them declined, the Americans started to shoot at them”—and even incited other Iraqi soldiers to “shoot their friends in the army,” he says. His account could not be independently confirmed.

Iraqi officers and soldiers assigned as guards at the Taji military complex reported that members of the 2nd Battalion who’d been deployed on the mission returned later that day in two groups. Some came back in cars with American personnel, weapons hanging on their shoulders. A second group arrived on foot, without weapons, according to Ra’ad Ahmed, a recruit who guards one of the gates of the camp.

more

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. That was on MSNBC
OMG Bush is toast

Zubaidy said that his U.S. officers ordered Iraqi soldiers to open fire on the angry crowd in Shulla. “The American officers hysterically ordered us to shoot the 'traitors',”

The mis-administration will just spin it as propaganda once again
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. Shoot the "traitors",...
,...their own people,...

Shocking!!!

Weird,...because I hear extreme right-wing militant corporatists within my own country calling me and those like me, "traitors".

Militant mindset,...very scary, very cruel, very inappropriate as a leadership force in any country.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. From a country (USA) who ...
... refuses to allow their soldiers to come under the command of any other country's officers? I really don't think it's our "freedoms" that make us hated.
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Guess they either need to pay them more...
or hire more mercenaries.

Uummm, er... I mean "security contractors."
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. More good news
The occupation is going swimmingly well, wot?

http://www.wgoeshome.com
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. The wheels have now fallen off.
It is incredible that the instrument that will remove gwb from the office he has stolen will prove to be several thousand barely organized, but highly incensed Iraqi citizens. He who is still standing after the utterly damning revelations of Paul O'Neil and Richard Clarke, is going to be taken down by a relatively few Iraqi patriots.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Barely organized?
Um, no. One thing that must be remembered- and this is something that Bushco apparently never knew to begin with- is that these people have been defending their lands from aggressors for thousands of years. They're rebuffed some of the mightiest armies history has ever seen, and they're currently in the process of tossing out the most advanced armed force ever. They are succeeding, by the way.

I highly doubt the June 30 turnover will take place. If it does, I'm betting the end result will not be exactly favorable to the US.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Thanks Sinistrous for putting into words
what I've been thinking for the past few months. As I was driving home from work, frustrated as usual about Iraq, it occurred to me: the fragile threads of fate are hanging on these resistance fighters, whoever they may be.

The entire occupation was built on the assumption that the Iraqis would be obedient and let the americans come in and pump their oil and build fast food convenience stores all over the country.

This was only the first stop of some other unfinished business.

To their chagrin, these folks are putting up a fight. I realized that this entire scheme could come apart because of this.

I was stunned when I came to this realization. Thanks for saying it better than I could.
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Mackay Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Resistance fighters
For the past week... I've been feeling that they are fighting for us (even though I'm sure they wouldn't see it that way). When I say "us", I mean the rest of the world... because the rest of the world doesn't want the other wars on the PNAC list to take place if Iraq is a success.

Unfortunately, nothing can overwhelm the apathy of Americans... you would think that even Enron should have brought these mo-fos down. So many scandals that should be unthinkable just haven't sunk the ship.

Ultimately the only way for the world to 'win'... is for the Iraqi's to take back their country and send the Bush cabal packing. I feel sorry for anyone's children serving in the U.S. forces that killed along the way. But if Iraq goes well, they will just be sent on to Syria and Iran and so on.

Too bad Americans can't stand up to this tyranny ourselves so none of this has to happen this way.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. A touching perspective,...
,...yet, so very painful possibility. I do wonder how we will all look back on this period. Will the American people finally gain enough understanding of what its own government has been doing to stand up to a form of tyranny they did not formerly see? Will we accept our role in creating "terrorism" and in being "terrorists"?

I wonder.

I still have faith that, ultimately, the American people (short of the right-wing extremists and freon neocons) will see what is right before them. But, my hope is that,...we will not allow all this to escalate into a total crisis. One tough lesson I have witnessed over and over again is that,...people tend to be complicit until a crisis evolves. Hopefully, we will not do that this time,...hopefully.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. I don't see HOW bush can win this war.
Just wondering, could this have anything to do with oil?

I am sensing this is going to be acutally worse than vietnam. All the Iraqi resistors have to do is keep killing Americans, We have some 70% of our combat stregnth over there now. There is nothing more we can send over.- and how are we going to end it?

By the way, If I were facing the end of my tour or enlistment... I would think twice about re enlisting.


I totally agree with you, Time is not on the Chimp's side. The War President could be well undone by this debacle / unnecessary / ill planned mis adventure. He should have known Iraqis would see us as invaders.

We are behaving like invaders. The resistors are acting like patriots. Yet again we are in over our heads and on the wrong side. How much more slaughter will have to happen before it ends?
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Sinistrous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. The Massacre at Fallujah put any positive solution
to the fiasco in Iraq out of reach. It engendered white-hot hatred for the US in thousands of Iraqis and exposed the barbarity of the * agenda. The play is in its denouement.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. for a far better tale of what happened
go to <http://www.warblogging.com>. this guy sure knows what the hell is happening.would you kill your neighbor if you were in their shoes?
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Thank you, rchsod,...I have added it to my "favorites" *eom*
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. Seruv
Once to every man and nation, comes the moment to decide,
In the strife of truth with falsehood, for the good or evil side;
Some great cause, some great decision, offering each the bloom or blight,
And the choice goes by forever, ’twixt that darkness and that light.

Though the cause of evil prosper, yet the truth alone is strong;
Though her portion be the scaffold, and upon the throne be wrong;
Yet that scaffold sways the future, and behind the dim unknown,
Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above His own.

-- James R. Low­ell, in the Bos­ton Cour­i­er, December 11, 1845.
Low­ell wrote these words as a po­em pro­test­ing Amer­i­ca’s war with Mexi­co.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Actually, it comes more than once to a nation.
I find myself proud of the Iraqis who refused to shoot their neighbors to keep a job in hard times.

And I feel the deepest possible shame that we are the ones who asked them to do it.

When BushCo was making rosy predictions about our reception in Iraq, I remember being scared that they might get it right, because then they wouldn't stop. But they were wrong and I was right, and DU and most of the world was right.

Bush is the bringer of Death.
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PfcHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Operation FUBAR
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. I just hope our own soldiers feel the same way if it ever comes to this

History is not on our side though unfortunately.

Don



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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Are you referring to
Kent State, recent history, the guard killing the miners in Colorado, earlier history, etc...?
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. You mean the Ludlow Massacre?
1912 the anniversary is next week I think. Sometimes its good to know when to leave the party. I would not put it past our military to do with they are told.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, eom
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. Interesting parallel ..
Ira*i soldiers refused to fight to defend Saddam.
Ira*i soldiers refuse to fight to defend USA.

btw .. O'Billy's "question of the day" yesterday .. "Do the Ira*is want to fight for their freedom?"
What the hell does he think they are DOING?
RW propaganda to the 'nth degree. How can people be fooled by this CRAP?
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. One Iraqi officier sums it up well:
"Senior officers in the New Iraqi Army say riot police and other civilian security forces should have been used on the mission rather than army troops. “The idea of using the army to carry out functions against civilians inside the cities is a grave mistake,” says staff colonel Dakhil Hammood, commander of the first battalion of the Salahuddin Brigade based in Tikrit. “No Iraqi would ever welcome this idea. The army must focus on foreign threats and be deployed to defend the country’s porous borders.” He has called for a review of the types of missions that would fall to the new Iraqi army over the long term."
(from aticle cited above)

Troops are for defending against foreign invaders not shooting their own countrymen!
And our National Guard is supposed to defend our shores and help with disasters, not figthing on foreign shores!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. Iraq is turning into the frying pan of Cambodia..
When Nixon ordered the troops into Cambodia, it was a massacre.

Our troops should be brought home, until a game plan is in place.

This is criminal what is happening to our Nat'l Guardsman.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. bush's comment about history and his attitude is a perfect example...
of why Iraq is the mess it is. The history of the middle east has many examples of greater armies being turfed out but the bush cabal don't read history, they don't read, period.
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Amen-but he is not "curious" and that apparently is a good thing?
you know Churchill was a Tory but damn the man knew history and made some very wise decisions based on it-here in the US the Neocon movement is illiterate and thinks the ME is a blank slate-we have outright blind ignorance and arrogance running this country's foreign policy-but OMG I think Shrub can still be elected and that says alot about how bad off the us has become.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Well, actually, the neocons re-interpret history to their favor,...
,...and they are not stupid or illiterate,...they are simply arrogant, power-hungry extremists. They are definitely fascist-like and at least despotic imperialists. They refuse to recognize or acknowledge that their aims are merely another evil in the making and that their world-view is totally anti-democracy. They refuse to acknowledge their own obsession with power,...with winning,...at any cost. They makes them quite evil.
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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
24. The defection of Iraqi troops is one of biggest defeats last week
The press has paid relatively little attention to the defection of the US-led Iraqi troops. But it spells complete disaster for the Bush plan to rebuild Iraq. Unwilling to take the political repercussions for reinforcing the American forces or the financial burden a long occupation would entail, the Americans have essentially lost the war in Iraq. The only option now is to get out without suffering too much humiliation.
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