Study: Healthy eating is privilege of the rich

Source: AP

Posted: 7:42 AM

By: Associated Press

SEATTLE - A healthy diet is expensive and could make it difficult for Americans to meet new U.S. nutritional guidelines, according to a study published Thursday that says the government should do more to help consumers eat healthier.

A update of what used to be known as a food pyramid in 2010 had called on Americans to eat more foods containing potassium, dietary fiber, vitamin D and calcium. But if they did that, the journal Health Affairs said, they would add hundreds more dollars to their annual grocery bill.

Inexpensive ways to add these nutrients to a person's diet include potatoes and beans for potassium and dietary fiber. But the study found introducing more potassium in a diet is likely to add $380 per year to the average consumer's food costs, said lead researcher Pablo Monsivais, an assistant professor in the Department of Epidemiology and the School of Public Health at the University of Washington.

"We know more than ever about the science of nutrition, and yet we have not yet been able to move the needle on healthful eating," he said. The government should provide help for meeting the nutritional guidelines in an affordable way.

Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/health/study-healthy-eating-is-privilege-of-the-rich

of green beans, broc, squash, corn, beets, carrots, tomatoes, lettuce for less than $50. Most everything can be frozen or preserved and eaten over the winter. I not only eat healthier but I get some damn good exercize in the process. I know this doesn't help with the prices of meat and fish, but it's a start.

but many people do not have the large amounts of time it takes to grow their own food. Many do not have the space. Many like me live on such inhospitable rocky ground that it would take years to condition the soil, not to mention cutting down most of the trees.

Could you get a community garden going with others where you are? It takes the expertise of those who know how to do it to spearhead this. Members could give a specified amount of time to support the garden. This is the only way to make "grow your own" really work.

may I suggest container gardening? I have a postage-stamp sized back yard but I've discovered square foot gardening plus I grow things in pots. Container gardening is a LOT less work because all you have to do is water the plants. The weeding is nothing and for about $1.59 you can get enough seeds for three years worth of crop. It's not enough to survive on, of course, but it supplements my grocery bill by a good 30 to 40%.

:hi:

good suggestion.

However some people don't even have room for a square foot garden. Container gardening may work for some but most don't have the knowledge of how to do it. Especially from seeds. You don't just throw some seeds in a pot and wait for the large healthy veggies to pop out like magic.

Do you know if anyone is teaching this (small plot/container gardening) in your area? Would you be willing to network with some friends or neighbors to coach them? Maybe it could be a liitle club that wouldn't be too taxing on you personally.

There's still the problem that many people do not have the time to even water stuff consistently. They have jobs, small kids, are going to school, etc. But if the organization and oversight were provided by others they would pitch in on a community garden for a specified amount of time.

I still think it takes a village if you want to see many people growing vegetables. And of course fruits are a whole other issue.

I already do this with my neighbors. This year I formed a community alliance (we're still VERY new) and one of the things we're going to do is have seminars. Mine will be on container gardening and canning/preserving.

If your local library has "Square Foot Gardening" by Mel Bartholemew, that's how I started. I don't agree with 100% of what he says but the basic concept is a good one and has proven to be successful all over the world, including in third-world countries.

Also, DU has a GREAT Gardening group. I've gotten lots of suggestions from them and I'll be willing to answer any questions anyone has on the subject.

LTH

:applause:

I'm going to look for that book - today! I need to get going on gardening (I'm way behind!!).

:shrug:

I put some strawberries in the planter box a few months ago.

Last week I asked if anyone else had watered them recently. After some discussion, we concluded that they hadn't been watered in about 2 weeks in 100+ temperatures.

I went out to the planter box with dread in my heart. There the plants were, happy as ever. :D

Seriously, why is it people always look for the panacea? I deal with this everyday at work and it pisses me off. We come up with an idea that is a HUGE improvement for 98% of the scenarios, but some people get hung up on the 2% and, therefore, do NOTHING. Implement the solution for the VAST VAST VAST majority of scenarios and deal with the outliers separately.

There are solutions to this problem. People just need to be willing to actually do them.

I agree that the outliers who don't want change often spoil it for the majority that does, but I'm not sure it's applicable here.

In this case you have about 80% of the population who does not have "60 seconds a day to water" (which is a gross simplification of what it takes)-- even if they did have the space, sunlight, tools, and most importantly--knowledge.

So are you growing your own food then? And you call it easy? And you think anybody can do it?

We had a garden for years, but elected to sod over it so our children had more play area. That was a luxury we could afford. However, there is a small area I still use to plant 4 tomato plants (I LOVE August when we have homemade BLT's damn near every night).

If you want a perfect looking garden, it take a bit more time. Last year, I did not have much time, so we just let the plants grow. They got a bit wild and did not look pretty, but still kicked out ass tons of tomatoes.

"If you've killed 100 plants, you're an amateur; if you've killed 1000, you're an expert."

I was going to say that there's some basic stuff you need to know to get going, but I thought about it and I couldn't think of any examples. Like, if you live in an area with terrible soil you might want to add seasoned compost or something else, but srsly every year since I was 10 we've had tomato plants, and every year they've done just fine with almost no thought or effort.

:) I'm just hoping I am forgiven for plant death. I always had the best of intentions.

Thank you for the :fistbump:

I've got a small plot where I put them, cucumbers and green peppers in very close proximity. Tomato plants are doing excellent, but cukes and peppers, not so much.

I have yet to verify this, but a neighbor friend claims that the acidity of the tomato plants make it more difficult for the cukes and peppers. :shrug:

I guess I have a lot more to learn about gardening, but now see why some people enjoy it so much!

who did exactly what you're suggesting- she put in a container garden in the front yard.

This poor, poor woman is now facing jail time. For putting in a container garden.

I humbly suggest people aren't taking action on XYZ issue any more because they don't want to become criminals.

you can find information online, at YouTube, etc.

you can make a nice little hydroponic window farm from recycled/reused bottles and some tubing.

i live in a trailer park with really crappy soil. we do some container gardening.

i've been taking classes in permaculture at the local community college. it's a fascinating movement for sustainable living.

Permaculture is sustainable land use design. This is based on ecological and biological principles, often using patterns that occur in nature to maximise effect while minimizing wasted energy. Permaculture aims to create stable, productive systems that provide for human needs, harmoniously integrating the land with its inhabitants. The ecological processes of plants, animals, their nutrient cycles, climatic factors and weather cycles are all part of the picture. Inhabitants’ needs are provided for using proven technologies for food, energy, shelter and infrastructure. Elements in a system are viewed in relationship to other elements, where the outputs of one element become the inputs of another. Within a Permaculture system, work is minimised, "wastes" become resources, productivity and yields increase, and environments are restored. Permaculture principles can be applied to any environment, at any scale from dense urban settlements to individual homes, from farms to entire regions.

:thumbsup: thank you Scout (Just posting that definition here for others) I will look at this.

I had a tiny slab of Concrete for a yard. I went down to the local Target and bought some cheap Laundry Baskets, put in some large Trash Bags with some holes punched for drainage, filled them with soil from the Garden Center and voila, instant garden. I had all the veggies I could eat in season.
It takes very little effort and little money to do.

Its actually way easier than I ever realised. I have never gardened before. This season I found out you can grow a lot within $20 worth of cinderblocks and $10 in dirt. A cinderblock on the bottom with openings facing sideway, with 2 placed upright holes opening upward on top of that, and some cheap soil from your local hardware store. Drop in seeds, and water. Bam. Plants grow.

I do not have a hose. I have a cheap plastic bucket. I stick it in the sink while I cook breakfast, it fills, I take under 2 minutes to water my whole "garden". Thats it.

Right now I am getting about a strawberry a day. A bunch of tomato's are growing(going to be inundated, theres like 20+ on each bush, all still green) Bananna peppers coming nearer and nearer to ripeness. Onions... I dunno yet. The only failure so far was broccoli, since some green wurms came and munched most of it away. But its coming back, so we will see.

www.communitygarden.org/

There are scores of other Community/Collective Gardens not yet listed there (I know, I am still in the process of developing a Collective Garden for a neighborhood of some 486 families in my small CA town). We've produced over 600 lb's of tomato's, peppers, squash, corn in the last 3 months alone, and well over 750 seedlings that have made their way across our small area to home gardens. Next year we are aiming for a whole lot more. :)

Assuming there is a community garden in your area, go see about joining. Or, talk to your neighbors about forming one. Costs can be minimal. Most use sustainable methods of growing which costs very little. Compost can be had for free. Seeds can be found online for free. One can join a community based garden where everything (including water) is supplied for as little as $20 per month. Climate and location can be worked around.... there are numerous gardens in the most intemperate places in the world. Also check out Master Gardeners) to locate a Master Gardener in your area. Their services are 99% free (although they do participate in some fee based things such as "Garden Club" {ladies who lunch, bah} events); Master Gardeners are the best when it comes to educating community groups on all growing 'how-to's'.

And keep talking to folks like Le Taz... some or her posts in the Garden Forum contain invaluable information. Sq. Ft gardening, yes! Raised beds, containers... and every thing is practically a container: old fruit bins, munitions boxes, old resin boats turned upside down... the ideas are endless! And of course the web is chock full of sites dedicated to home and community/collective gardening ideas.

Sustainable Gardening truly is one of the prime movements of the 21st century. Many of us believe that our very existence depends on knowing how to grow nutritious food, sustain natural resources, and maintain a healthy environment. Plus there is the added benefit of meeting our neighbors and forming friendships and all the bonuses these bring.

You can do this... we all can!

Best,

Melinda

Didn't even know that website existed. :thumbsup: I see from the map that there's a garden in my general area, not conveniently close--but I could ask them if they know of others starting up. I'll check out the gardening forum too.

Thanks for the info!

:hug:

it's promoting agriculture in the urban areas... great idea

And resources to are available OR can be had cheaply, particularly if people come together. :) Glad I could help you find the site. :hug:

Melinda

fig and peach trees.

setup of a garden is not just an easy thing...

planters, hoses, seedlings, fertilizer, etc are all an added cost.
and if someone is on the edge of survival, they may not have time for gardening
or if someone is disabled or aged or just not healthy, it is labor intensive as well...

I have been trying to get my own garden off the ground for a couple years, this year i had to scrap everything and start over. turning the soil, prepping for next year, etc... it's not as easy as you think, and i am arthritic, so i can only put one day a week, or less into the hard work of it all...

want to try pots that are close/directly outside your door. There is a book "No Dig Gardening" BUT you have to get the matrials first to begin

http://www.amazon.com/Lasagna-Gardening-Layering-Bountiful-Gardens/dp/0875969623/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312501597&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/No-Dig-Garden-Specialist-Essential-Vegetables/dp/1847737471/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312501597&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Gardening-Natural-No-Dig-Way/dp/1903998913/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312501597&sr=1-1

Please check with community gardens in your area for help w/all other issues. We container garden in 4x4x4 foot fruit bins for disabled folks, and we help find resources needed for those who can't come to our collective/community garden. I don't know where you are, but I'll try to lend a long distance hand if possible.

:hug:

Melinda

no joy

with winter conditions that last 9 months of the year, many people see it as futile.

my favorite model for community gardening is Crop Mob (www.cropmob.org) then it's less about money and more about working together
handed out flyers at a community event, made a facebook page, posted all over town and talked to folks...
and nobody came, nobody showed up
maybe next year people will be more interested, but this year with winter into June, everyone was just so discouraged up here i think we just collectively gave up on gardening to some extent... 6000' elevation is NOT easy to grow in!

I am still gonna try to mobilize and keep going, it just takes time and effort -above & beyond the survival i am already struggling to handle with 2 kids, 2 jobs and being a single mom... so ya, just gotta keep trying i guess

Sorry, only saw the initial line in your post; just got home after a long day, plz forgive while I post and run. Will be back to more fully answer tho, I promise. :)

to start your own seeds. I agree if you have trouble with mobility that throws a monkey wrench into things. I f you live near the ocean collect the seaweed & put that into the soil. Bone meal can be scratched into the surface, it promotes flowering which promotes fruiting, etc.

I have taken seeds from store-bought bell peppers & started them, the trick is bottom heat, I just keep a plastic lid & put the 6 pack on top of my cable box. You can do the same with tomatoes too.

Oh, SOAKER HOSES! THE most important thing for those who have trouble walking/mobility, etc. A cheap water timer makes it even easier, but soaker hoses are a more expensive start-up cost.

started sprouting, but not peppers - yet.

I built raised beds and planters out of old redwood 2x6es that I had changed out of our deck. Cost $0.
After cutting out the badly rotted bits there was still plenty of wood left that was good enough for that.

It's a crapshoot if your area is subject to weather extremes.

This sumer here has been the hottest ever recorded and most of the state is in extreme drought. We have water rationing in place. Some municipalities are not able to provide any water.

I spent about as much as you putting in a garden earlier this year. My grand harvest has been all of two small tomatoes. With real high temperatures approaching 115 degrees and low temperatures only falling into the mid 80's it is uncomfortable if not dangerous to work the garden. It is impossible to keep the garden hydrated - and watering adds to the expense. The money I spent on that garden was a waste.

It snows 6-7 months of the year...and then the backyard is a swamp for about a month...We have considered putting in a Greenhouse with Lamps and a heater...but boy start up cost for that is maybe 2k...shucks...as it is I'm pretty sleep deprived...

Tomatoes stop setting fruit if they don't get a minimum of couple of hours a day at 75 degrees F (some varieties are good to 77 or 78). The pollen isn't active above those temperatures. It's also important that the humidity not be too high, because then the pollen clumps. Result: Lots of blossoms, no fruit.

In Houston, tomatoes typically stop setting fruit in early-mid June when night-time temps are too high (or humidity's too high when the night-time lows get low enough).

My garden my first year was a waste--I started in the fall. Lots of arugula. I learned that my family and I don't like arugula.

The garden the following spring was mostly a waste. Started late. The heat hit and cooked it.

The next fall garden I learned. I'd been trying to grow what I wanted; it was mostly European, suited well to Maryland. I'm in Houston. Instead, I trying growing what would grow. Mibuna, broccoli, collards, kale, turnips. It did reasonably well, but I started late.

So this spring I planted tomatoes and peppers, mibuna and tah tsai and mustard greens, collards and turnips and jicama and Asian longbeans and malabar spinach. Things were going great until early July. Then the tomatoes that had set during cooler weather gave out and the extended heat dinged everything. Garden's dead, except for the Egyptian spinach (which is 6' tall and growing strong), peppers, collards, horseradish, and bitter melon. I should start some fall garden stuff soon, stuff that'll be young when it's hot and hitting maturity when it starts to cool down, and prep the ground for direct sowing in September. Mibuna, tah tsai, broccoli and many other plants are good to 25 degrees or so, and will last until December or January (or beyond--I have yet to pull up the celeriac and leeks I started last October).

In the frozen tundra of the north, leeks and claytonia can stay in the garden right through the winter. Knowledge is power, and while this year may have been a waste if you take the knowledge you can make it work for you next year.

You seem to think that the vegetables I planted were not suited and appropriate for this geographic area. You'd be wrong about that. Here we are in a severe drought with water rationing and we are on track to have the hottest summer ever recorded here. We have had above average temperatures almost everyday since June 1 as well as abnormally high nightime low temperatures. Just this week we set the record for the warmest nighttime low ever recorded - 87. The things I planted - tomatoes, peppers, corn, squash, okra, and some herbs - typically do well here in northeast Oklahoma. But, like most vegetables, they are not particularly well suited to prolonged high heat and drought conditions. My plants are largely still alive but they are not producing vegetables. And I am prohibited from watering them everyday - something that might help them survive and become productive.

Soaker hoses, & ultimately indoors at a window, east south & west

But they are not producing.

We have water rationing. I am not legally permitted to water everyday. Not even with a soaker hose.

Since the air conditioner can't keep the inside temperature below 80 degrees with the blinds and curtains shut I doubt the plants would produce particularly well inside either - particularly since I am not inclined to open the blinds and curtains and make the indoor heat even more unbearable.



It is nearly 9 pm here right now. The real temperature is still above 100 degrees and the heat index is 110 degrees. Tonight's projected low temperature is 84 degrees.



But you're right roma tomatoes generally are more prolific and more meaty than other common varieties of tomatoes.

will rethink their denial now? Are your Romas in pots or in ground? since they're still alive.....I'd take them in overnight. Yeah I have been in a triple digit heatwave, 99 degrees at midnight....I highly advise you to get an empty smallish spray bottle & fill it with tap water to mist yourself, any pets thru out the day, & definately any elderly; plus eat chips & salt if you can.

or if you buy ready-made meals there, it will cost you an arm and leg. Get the basics like beans, rice, flour, cornmeal, oats, and make your own meals. Seriously, it doesn't take that long to cook something great for two, and kids like to prepare (and eat!) good meals too.

That your time and labor is worth nothing?

Most people that aren't wealthy aren't working 70 hour weeks. My neighborhood has average income around $40k/year. They get home at 4:30, go to work at 8, and do nothing outside when they come home. Perhaps mow and edge. Two parent families, teenage kids, and they watch tv, hang out on the stoop (okay, the garage), the kids play basketball or football. Sometimes they need activities for their kids so they have soccer teams, karate classes, or cheerleading squad practice they pay to take their kids to.

They all have backyards. Water's cheap. If their time and labor is worth something, they consider basketball and hanging out drinking beer to be very valuable.

The activity might cause some of them to lose the extra 20 or 30 pounds they're carrying. Or, in a few cases, the extra 130 lbs they're carrying. Lots and lots of preprocessed food containers in the trash. It's not that they're eating lots of beans and potatoes. They're eating Tombstone Pizza and premade lasagna. Beans and potatoes are healthier, with less fat and salt. And cheaper.

They have their priorities. A few of the neighbors are fighting off foreclosure and working two or three jobs. More have taken in relatives, so across the street the family with no time to mow has two parents working 40 hours, a son working 40 hours, and a teenager who plays basketball all day. They have even *more* excess time each week.

I'm looking forward to when my kid's old enough to need to be taken to soccer or football practice. Then it'll be, "Igeling, have you weeded the bok choy yet? And the blueberries need to be mulched and watered."

people who aren't wealthy work their ass off. 50 hours a week is about right...then you have to help the kids with their school work...do the laundry...vacuum...keep the bathrooms clean...wash the dishes and keep the oven clean...mow the lawn...play with the dog...work on the car....fix the furnace....and even on occasion sleep. you sound like you live in fat ass=ville...must be nice to be surrounded by fat dumb people who live such lives of leisure. I will never get to retire...at my age and with obama economics i will be forced to work till i die...so now i have to frackin live a subsistence lifestyle to boot...i'm only a generation or two removed from hunter gatherers...when it comes right down to it i would probably prefer to live in fat ass-ville...or at the very least chubby-burgh...

so i'm SOL?

what say you?

free time is also a privilege of the rich, or in your case i suppose the upper middle class

vegetables are in fact cheaper than any other food. It's not price that keeps people from eating healthy.

the person who posted that vegetables are cheaper than any other food is a great example of math innumeracy

the calories (food energy) you get per pound for vegetables is almost trivial and, at the end of the day, if you are eating to stay alive, then the food that provides the least energy for the money has to be kicked off the grocery list first

no one ever maintained life and health eating lettuce, which is mostly water in an extremely costly package

tomatoes, etc. are nice to haves, but you don't die if you don't have tomatoes, herbs, or the other common garden veggies

you DO die if you don't have adequate protein or calorie (food energy)

vegetable gardens do very little to solve the real challenges of providing affordable food, they just keep the busybodies and know-it-alls busy (and there's nothing wrong w. that but don't pretend your community garden does fuck all to FEED people on a physical level, whatever it may do on a spiritual level)

I believe the OP was talking about "healthy eating"
THat requires fruits and vegetables.
Even a fucking BUM knows that.

Quote-He mentioned, as an example, a Washington state policy making it difficult to buy potatoes with food assistance coupons for women with children, even though potatoes are one of the least expensive ways to add potassium to a diet.

Who are supposed to avoid carbs? like diabetics? or people who live in places where winter is 6-7 mos of the year? setting up a greenhouse with heaters and grow lights can be extremely expensive...to work in a garden raising veggies is time consuming for those of us who already put in 50 hours a week while trying maintain a household and raise children...

People who are barely making it time wise --holding down jobs, raising kids, maybe going back to school, often taking care of elders-- are supposed to add "growing food" to their To Do list? :wtf: It's unrealistic.

BUT I DO agree that if communities would help, if community groups, churches, schools, whatever--would PROMOTE group gardens, then you might have a concept that would make a difference.

Food is NOT that easy to grow. I've tried it and it can take years of experimenting before you get it right. And even then it can tie you down if you have many other commitments.

I agree with the basic premise--we DO need to stop depending on fast food, junk food, expensive produce, expensive frozen and processed food--but we also have to make the effort to help people, not just tell them to "grow a garden" (like they haven't even thought of it).

I grew up in the inner city where nothing could be realistically grown. Then when I moved to a place where there was technically "space" --only then did I understand how hard it can be to make things grow. Bad soil, no rain, animals, insects --it's all a learning curve. I have a lot of respect for those with the know-how. But I wish they would lead the way for others instead of acting like "anybody can do it." Not true at all.

i do...

perhaps like basil thyme oregano?

More like "ferns on the brink of death!"~

Many workers in our fast-paced, multiple job reality have a hard time preparing a dish which need lengthy supervision. Beans often need a couple of hours, with the occasional stir to prevent burning, not to mention the soaking times and planning needed to cook beans from raw, dried product. Potatoes plain every night are simple as hell, right? The poor deserve that, right? Easy enough to nuke one (probably not good for the nutrition), but it takes time to make a stew, or a Potatoes Anna, for that matter.



Defunding things like home ec cooking classes wasn't really a bright idea either. Knowing how to scratch cook should be, in an ideal place, knowledge every human should grasp the basics of. However that ideal society would provide time for human needs such as good cooking.

quote "Inexpensive ways to add these nutrients to a person's diet include potatoes and beans for potassium and dietary fiber. "

because your attitude here gives me the impression that you are. Shit isn't that simple.... walk in a poor person's shoes for once in your life.

and how accessible a healthy diet is to people --especially those without much money or transportation without places to buy a variety of foods within walking distance.

.

for better nutrition.

Not so much that the food is expensive, but rather the people are poor, often lacking time and money. :shrug:

Really.

Did'nt you notice?

but back in the day when they didn't come from everywhere in the world they were cheaper.

Not everybody can grow their own (that's ridiculous) but we could have more community gardens.

A lot of people would have to learn how to cook again.

I need beginners lessons. :rofl:

:hi:

It's out-of-season costs, transport costs, spoilage costs, chemical treatment costs, packaging costs, retail costs, etc. It's all the add-on costs of "convenience".

30 tomatoes costs me about 95 cents. Plant, water occasionally when the plants look pathetic.. I don't weed, I just till once a year.

other than the fact that some need guidance.

that if you aren't rich you should just give up and eat junk.

Vegetables are less expensive than junk food. Processed food is more expensive than raw food. Eating healthy is less expensive than destroying your health with nitrates, HFCS and carcinogens.

Because there are so few grocery stores. There are, however, an abundance of fast-food chains, connivence stores and liquor stores. So adding to the grocery bill is any and all transportation expenses (both in fuel, fare and/or time) to get to where the fresh food is. On top of that, the low income person, needs to know not only what fresh foods to pick but how to prepare them, and we all know how lousy education and training is in the poorer parts of America.

So yeah, if you're "rich" (that is to say middle class or up) you have access not only to the fresh food, close to where you live, but also the knowledge and means to prepare your own food from raw ingredients. But if you're poor and have always been poor, you're fucked. That's what America is these days. Which isn't how it should be.

fruits and vegetables and it costs me about $20 a day. I usually steamed frozen vegetables (cheaper) and ate them with brown rice, quinoa and various beans-it was healthy, just not enough. Conventionally grown fruits and veg have about 1/16th the nutrition of organic from heirloom seeds.Processed foods have about 1/10th the nutrition of fresh foods. Watch the documentary "Food Matters" or "Dying to have known" to see just how far a drop our foods have taken in quality since the 1950's and 60's.

I would happily compare my diet -- provided by the grace of my Garden -- with anyone. At least from April through late October. Really.

These days, the Garden provides much, much more than food. As Minnie Aumonier famously said:

"When the world wearies and society ceases to satisfy, there is always the Garden."

if you have space, time, energy AND knowledge. Growing food is NOT as easy as people like to make it sound.

Maybe invite others to learn how to do it (mini-workshops), or start a community garden, where people don't have to do all the work to benefit? I would love to join something like that.

Share your knowledge.

:eyes:

Stop spreading across this thread like it takes a MBA in mulch to get a pepper plant to produce. The fact is, a lot of people in this country are pretty fucking lazy. That's why they buy all this shit processed food.

Hmm, throw some fish sticks in the oven or peel/chop/boil/mash potatoes....


There's a reason all the graduation pictures these days have half the kids overweight versus 1910. And no, it's not a magic gene that just popped up 30 years ago.

Not everyone has a garden. Do you have allotments in the US as we do in the UK ?

Some history here : http://www.allotment.org.uk/articles/Allotment-History.php and here : http://www.farmgarden.org.uk/ari/documents/plotholdersguide.pdf

People there (mostly - not entirely) either live in built up cities, or in areas that would seem enormous by UK standards.

No it's not usually available like those described at your link. In America it's all private enterprise y'know. Councils would not sponsor this--there would need to be a big effort on the part of interested individuals to make it happen.

As Le Taz said:
"...there are often many hurdles to cross on this one -- organization, start up costs, negotiating with the landowner or City/County, etc." Le Taz is right about the hurdles in my experience.

New York City has the largest community garden program in the country, but it is a non-profit org (not administered by the city directly):

Established in 1978, GreenThumb (GT) remains the nation's largest urban gardening program, assisting 500 gardens and nearly 20,000 garden members throughout New York City. Their mission is to foster civic participation and encourage neighborhood revitalization while preserving open space. Today, the GT program, by providing materials and technical assistance, continues to support neighborhood volunteers who manage community gardens as active and attractive community resources. GT gardens are located in all five boroughs of New York City. The majority of GT gardens are located in economically disadvantaged community planning districts that receive federal financial support through a complement of open space, affordable housing, and economic development. Active garden sites create a stable force in the community and serve as anchors for other re-development initiatives."
http://www.oasisnyc.net/garden/resources.aspx

or work 16 hours a day, and therefore can't devote themselves to a garden.

Growing even a small vegetable garden and cooking unprocessed foods from scratch is infinitely cheaper. That method feeds my husband and I very healthy food for about $10.00/day for BOTH of us. This doesn't make sense.

I hear this all the time--"What's the problem?--grow a garden." I know you don't mean to sound arrogant but someone who has no knowledge, space or time to grow a garden--gets nothing out of your suggestion. It sounds like "let them eat cake."

Now if people with the know how could help start community gardens, I might be listening. Growing a garden is hard work and it can be very challenging, depending on conditions. People have to learn how from experts like you.

about the container gardening? Trust me, I was an L.A. kid that knew less than nothing about gardening as I'd lived in apartments all my life. I checked out books from the library, got online and I just learned as I went along. Community gardening is always a great idea, unfortunately, there are often many hurdles to cross on this one -- organization, start up costs, negotiating with the landowner or City/County, etc. If one can pull it off, great, but if not, the container gardening is a good alternative.

If I may:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_foot_gardening

Keep in mind, if one is not able to build boxes one can grow things in pots. If you can't afford to buy pots, used, cleaned out large pales work just fine. You just poke holes in the bottom for the water to drain. Other gardeners will disagree with me but Miracle Gro potting soil works well for me. I use pots in the summer for tomatoes, peppers and squash but they're certainly not limited to just that produce. In the winter lettuce and spinach do just fine in pots. To get started, just begin with one or two types of produce that you know you consume a lot and go from there.

Stick a few tomato plants in the ground, water them once a day, and there you go. Same with other veggies. Gardening takes an hour or two on the weekends at most.

Here's a day's menu for for one:

Breakfast: Oatmeal, banana, tomato juice, tea- cost? under a buck

Lunch: Peanut butter and honey on whole wheat, carrot sticks, H20- cost? under a buck

Dinner: Chicken thighs (2). Saute chicken thighs in a little olive oil or vegetable oil. Add a chopped onion, half a can of stewed tomatoes, chopped, a tbs of red wine vinegar, a 1/2 tsp of dried tarragon and if you're feeling really flush, finish the sauce with a tsp of butter. Serve over brown rice. For a vegetable, how about some steamed broccoli or carrots? Cost? a couple of bucks.

There. You just ate well for a day for under $5.

Yes, it takes planning and thought; the ability to do some basic cooking, but it's not that hard.

about the planning. I agree that helps cut costs. Steaming veggies takes very little time--agreed. Your menu is healthy but you are really talking about a radical dietary change for many people, eg. most Americans would have some dairy on this --milk, yoghurt, cheese, all on the expensive side. (I don't eat it but many would). Shouldn't there be more fruit? Americans don't drink water--most drink juice, sodas, coffee. And the most obvious omission--how do you replace the HFCS and fats that people are used to?

You are ignoring the sugar and fat addiction that permeates the population. And I doubt there's a teenage male who could live on your menu. They need more pasta and 5 pieces of bread.

Otherwise, I get the point.

You gave a list of reasons for why many people might not want to go to the effort to eat healthy food at a reasonable price. And you have a good point. But all that says is why they don't want to, not why they can't. People who are less than rich have the capability to eat healthy foods if they would just do it. So I think that the OP is misleading.

You are saying that poor people have the SAME opportunity to eat healthy as the rich? And the reason they don't is because they "won't" (self-discipline, bootstraps and all that)?

If that IS what you believe I guess I don't have time for a dissertation on what it is to be poor in this country.

The OP is quoting an Associated Press news source. The AP is conservative in what it distributes. It seems to be based on facts. The OP merely posted this article--so I don't think you can say the OP is "misleading."

:eyes:

misleading because it says that only the rich can afford healthy food. It didn't say that poor people cannot afford healthy food. If it had said that I wouldn't have a problem with it. But middle income people who are not rich certainly can afford it. In my reply I said that people who are "less than rich" can afford it. I didn't say poor people. Read my post again please.

that much. Look, you're contradicting yourself terribly here. You claimed that only the wealthy can eat healthily- that's simply not true. really, really not true. Oh, and as for teenage males living on my menu? That's one frickin' day. And pasta is cheap. You're being absurd. Sorry. And btw, my son lived on my "menus" when he was a teenager. He's a very athletic 24 year old now who knows how to cook healthily.

you really have a bee in yer bonnet about this! --"frickin...absurd...sorry" --such aggravated language--good grief!

Guess I can't disagree since you don't like that, but I don't believe that the average American (especially if addicted to the high sugar high fat diet), could change to your menu very easily, and I certainly don't think the average growing (athletic) teenage guy could make it on the number of calories you describe per day...doesn't mean it would be impossible, just not exactly appealing.

Further, let me be clear:

I am NOT the OP. And anyway, the OP made NO claims--the OP posted an article by the Associated Press, based on a study. The OP did NOT state an opinion. And as for me, I only made a few non-critical comments about your menu which I stand by completely :hi: sheesh

say that only the wealthy can afford healthy food. I agree that poor people, especially those in neighborhoods without stores that sell healthy food and who might not have land to grow a garden on might not be able to afford it. And we need programs to help people in that situation. But most non rich middle class people certainly can afford healthy food if they want to eat it.

OK--Maybe upper middle class people can afford healthy food, but I don't think lower middle class people (generally speaking) can. (If they don't grow veggies and shoot deer). In many parts of the country it's not even safe to pull a fish out of the water anymore.

Look, it was based on a study of 3,300 people randomly selected in Wash state. They analyzed people's food buying as a percentage of income. Maybe you should write to them and tell their results are dead wrong. The "people who are not rich" are just fine and can eat healthy for next to nothing. It's not what I am seeing.

By some people's standards these days, upper middle class = wealthy --and lower middle class = poor. The gap is widening.

into this thread. Sometimes people can't see past the nose on their face. "If *I* do it, why can't *they*?" Fruits and vegetables are expensive and they spoil much faster than processed food. If you're down to your last $20, and don't get paid for another week, what are you going to choose? Something that is going to last and that hopefully will fill you up.

I can tell you that you can still do it (yes, you need a stove- at least a woodburning one). In any case the vast majority of Americans have a fridge, a stove and running water. My point was in response to the OP.

you really are killing me..

Buying a tomato plant-
Stick it in a bigger pot-
Give it water twice a day-



Hard work is changing a transmission out by yourself. Hard work is laying a new roof in 110 degree fucking heat. Hard work is digging 36 post holes by hand.

You have space for a garden, time and a kitchen to cook, and don't have to shop for your groceries at the corner gas station. Can you understand what it's like for a poor person who works three jobs, lives in substandard housing, and doesn't have a decent place nearby to shop for food?

You're welcome. :eyes: I've been poor most of my life and was homeless as a child. Yes, I do know. Now, maybe you can look up thread at the SUGGESTIONS I took time to offer at how to pull this off.

to systemic issues. "I can do it so can you." is not a solution, no matter how worthy and admirable your own method.

I think individual action can be the beginning of global change and I think history bears that out. I think growing our own food, no matter how much or how little, makes us less dependent on the multi-nationals who would feed us dog shit if they thought they could get away with it. I just don't see the inherent problem with an "I can do it so can you . . ." BUT I'd add, "with a little help from my friends" which means now it's a community movement. Work in increasing concentric circles: individual, community, city, county, state, nation, world and yes, it can change the world. I truly do believe that. Personally, I wouldn't know any other way of accomplishing global change.

because i would say that history teaches the opposite. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm referring to 2011 and never did I say, infer or think that "people eat poorly because they don't know how to garden." I (and others) are simply offering suggestions for those who might be interested in small, container gardening as a way to cut down their grocery bill.

"I think individual action can be the beginning of global change and I think history bears that out."

Take care of yourself and keep complaining. Rather keep trying to get the state or feds to help with making good food accessable, but in the meantime look into ways of helping yourself. A garden helps, but so does looking for alternative foods. I know the gas stations around here sell bananas (10-25 cents each) and bananas are good for potassium, fiber and many other daily nutrients. Beans don't have to be bought dry, if you can't take the time to make them. Although I've never had a problem with time since they can be soaked over-night while I'm sleeping and cooked in the slow-cooker all day while I'm at work, so where's the problem? I think the Mexican diet is very healthy and cheap. It uses the cheapest cuts of meats (flank steaks etc) many veggies (peppers, onions and tomatoes) has good fiber in the rice and corn and flour tortellias and has dairy with sour cream and cheeses. The same with Oriental, cheap cuts of meat, soy, and veggies. Or just add a milk shake of Instant Breakfast and ice cream to your diet.

On edit: The thing that does take time and work is making my weekly menu with the sale ads from the local (closest) grocery store. This does keep my costs down. I know many don't do the weekly planning - but it does cut the cost of eating and provides for left-overs being used and less waste.

It works its way up from the bottom, not down from the top.

Many need a helping hand, but without personal decision and action change is not possible, and external assistance alone is not sufficient.

anyone who has been poor themselves, or has worked with poor/low-income families, or even has a real interest in the dynamics of food production/marketing in the US knows that price is a huge factor in how people eat. Fruits and vegetables are cheap? Has the poster been in a supermarket lately? Not to mention - as you note - the challenges faced by families in "food deserts."

If you are poor and hungry, it makes a lot more sense to buy a hamburger off the McD's 1$ menu than it does to go to the supermarket and spend the same 1$ on some vegetables.

...For my family of 5 last night for less than it would cost to feed them off the dollar menu.

$2 for grapes.
$2 for 3 cans of canned vegatables
$1 for 3 ears of corn
$4 for 2 pounds of chicken.

All this for $9, with food left over for lunch today. I HATE it when people claim fast food is cheaper. It flat out is NOT the case, even from the dollar menu.

I don't know where you live, but I have not seen a price like that even on sale for an awful long time. I couldn't even get chic breasts WITH bones and skins for that price. even on sale.

But regardless: note, I said if you were hungry and had $1 you'd be better off getting a McBurger. It has enough fat and calories to assuage your hunger. Which 1$ worth of vegetables won't.

And if you fed five people on two lbs of chicken with left-overs for today, your family does not have the appetites mine does. Even at 1/3 lb per serving, 5 people = 1 & 2/3 lbs. And yes, I do realize that the nutritionists claim 1 lb = 4 servings, but unless one has a teeny-weeny appetite, <1/4 lb of chicken (because even boneless/skinless will shrink some with cooking) will not satisfy many. Not to mention that if you happen to be over-weight, or have a physiognomy that demands lots of protein, 1/4 lb won't do it. You CAN - and I know how to do it - stretch 1 lb to feed 4 - but it requires using pasta or beans or potatoes or rice as a filler - stir-fry, or sheperd's pie or a version of "mac and meat" or "beans and meat." Many people have problems with beans, and the other "whites" - even potatoes, which are at least nutritious, are not exactly good as the main ingredient in a meal for people who are overweight. Not to mention that such a meal requires access to decent cooking equipment, and more importantly a high degree of organization, planning, and skill in execution.

So your solution is to ask the poorest and most disadvantaged among us - people often unbelievably stressed by the exigencies of poverty - to solve this on their own?

There are many intertwined approaches, from community gardens to food subsidies to decent wages and full employment to banning advertisements for junk food and fast food on childrens tv to a guaranteed national income that allows people to actually eat to to to... but asking people to solve this individually, in the face of the entire culture and economic landscape is not realistic.

I was cutting my nutritional teeth on Adele Davis forty years ago, and I don't need to be taught how to scramble eggs.

For context, my boys are 2, 5 & 8. They also had, roughly, half a can of vegatables, half an ear of corn and grapes. If you aregument is that that is not enough to feed some people, the SAME logic has to be applied to the dollar menu. If they would need to buy more of my meal plan, they would also have to buy more from the dollar menu, meaning it is still cheaper to make your own food.

Seriously, look at that fast food restautant. Someone is pay for the building/rent. Someone is paying the property taxes. Someone is paying for the employees and all the utilities, in addition to the profit margin of cooking it for you.

Thus, I am NOT expecting the poor to solve this on their own. However, they CAN give it a start by recognizing that, contrary to your claim, one can get healthier food from a store than from a fast food joint. And, mind you, my example of cheaper food was for a good alternative. If I wanted to buy crap with a nutritional content equal to fast food, I could buy that for even half the price.

I am sorry, because you probably don't intend to be so, but I find that incredibly condescending to "the poor." Who are increasingly most of us - just a matter of degree. You don't seriously think that "the poor" do not recognize that? The lower your income, the fewer choices you have. The cheapest thing on the shelf is probably Ramen noodles, which is why the lower your income, the more of them you eat.

My contention is merely that to discount price, as so many have done in this thread, is nonsensical, and to preach individual solutions is unrealistic and condescending.

A woman I worked with - she was forced by "the Welfare" to take a part time McJob when her infant was three months old - never mind that she also had a chronic illness which, while not leaving her totally disabled, nonetheless impacted her energy and stamina. She had to spend about an hour and a half riding the bus (each way) to get to her job, because she had to get the infant to a care provider. So she spent three hours a day - which included a total of four bus stop waits a day in all weathers - to get back and forth to her 4 hr McJob. She also had to take a bus and the infant to any shopping trip to a grocery between her 1x month large food stamp shopping, for which she spent the money for a cab. The refrigerator in her apartment had a freezer too small to hold anything but the meat she bought with the food stamps. How many fresh vegetables & fruits do you think she could afford AND transport a month? How much energy do you think she had for "scratch" cooking?

And btw, if you read my post, you would realize that I never claimed that fast food was "healthier."

I never said this was the problem of "the poor" to deal with. What I am stating is that there are steps we can take to better the situation without simply waiting for the government to get its shit together. Sure, it is not a solution for all, and there will ALWAYS be outliers. However, to my point above, I HATE it when people are looking for the panacea and, when it is not found, do jack shit. The things I said will not work for the lady in your example. We as a nation need to address that issue as well. However, I would bet for every situation similar to the one you described, there is at least one that would be better off doing what I said.

1/10th or less.

They are very expensive on a PER CALORIE basis.

Many studies have shown frozen vegetables are better than "fresh." That said, you are changing the topic I was addressing. I was comparing canned vegetables to a shitty fast food meal. Is your logic that people should eat fast food over canned vegetables because organic vegetables are better than canned vegetables?

I have a very, very small garden living here in the city. Probably about 4 tomato and 4 pepper plants, as that's about all that will fit. We only have about 3-4 months tops/year of growing time here...unless you want to try growing something in the snow when it's below 0. :)

Also, homes aren't that spacious, especially when you factor in children and pets to grow indoors. There's just no room. As for the neighbors, I don't seem them often, as many work several jobs just to pay the bills, so even a simple "Summer garden" as I have is out of the question for them.

because they're afraid of going into the ghetto. taking a bus with all the bags is really hard, and really hard on the hands, as is walking-I wish I had thought to bring a washrag with me when I had to do that, my fingers would have dents for hours afterward.

preserving it in times of bounty for times of famine for centuries. Yes, I'm fortunate enough to live in a Mediterranean Climate but I would be doing the same thing if I lived in, say Michigan. I'd just be doing it for fewer months. I grew up with people who taught me to "eat what you can and can what you can't." Of course, now we have freezers so one doesn't even have to can to be able to preserve food. The principle remains the same.

or rabbits wipe out your crop in Zone 5, that's it, baby. It's over. There's no second chance. See you next year. Talented northern gardeners I know can squeeze out quite a lot of produce during the growing season if they have a good weather/pest year, but I really don't consider home gardening to be a dependable way to avoid fresh vegetable/fruit costs for most families. I do it as a fun little hobby, and to have a little homegrown treat in the summer--I'd hate to have to depend on it to feed my crew. We'd starve. Right now I have two recently "pruned" potted tomato plants and no tomatoes, because deer--or some large critter--ate all the green tomatoes and half the plants, right on my patio. I might have some ripe tomatoes in September if I'm lucky and nothing happens to the little marble-sized guys that the deer missed (now covered in netting).

". . .but I really don't consider home gardening to be a dependable way to avoid fresh vegetable/fruit costs for most families." I've been home gardening for several years now and I supplement my grocery bill by easily 30%. I container garden so rabbits aren't an issue and I've learned how to organically deal with pests (Jerry Baker's books are invaluable on this subject). I'm also in the city so deer aren't a problem, but even if they were, I have mesh coverings for my square foot gardens to keep my cats from using it as their litter box. Again, if I had to survive off my garden I'd starve to death but, at the moment, I'm content just supplementing my grocery bill while being able to eat organic FREE veggies.

For example, here's what we're having tonight:

Baked chicken (PLENTY of leftovers for several meals. Additionally, I'll take the carcass and freeze it until I'm ready to make my own chicken stock. All of that makes purchasing a chicken well worth it.)
Summer Salad (cucumbers, tomatoes and onions -- all from the garden)
Steamed Yellow Squash (from the garden)
Country-style potatoes (from the garden)

chicken and summer squash tonight...:-) Not disparaging home gardening, or trying to discourage it--just from my own personal experiences, and places I've tried gardening, it's not a very reliable way to save lots of money. A little money, maybe. But then you have to factor in efforts, supplies, etc. and determine if saving a little money some years is worth it. I just don't think the motivation is there for many people to pursue it to the extent that it seriously cuts their grocery bills.

Hey, if you have FRESH MEAT in your garden, I'd take that as a sign that you should continue planting bait and harvest the meat.... growing plants is easy, but meat? That's magnitudes harder.

And you will note that due to the vagaries of Agriculture and Farming people with institutional experience and a great cultural history of growing things have died of starvation. The civilizations that have known success were not the result of individual farmers, but due to systems of organized agriculture.
Not everyone is a farmer...not everyone is in a position to farm or garden...and certainly there is no guarantee that hours of time and effort will result in an edible crop (yield).
Sure, I agree it is the ideal, but there is a reason that people of the north ate mostly protein based foods...

One last time. I'm not saying it's for everyone. I'm not saying one can survive off of one's own garden. I'm not saying it's a panacea of any kind. I'm suggesting it for those who have an OPEN MIND and are willing to give a try if they want to supplement their grocery bill. No one is stopping you or anyone else from ingesting Cargill's pesticide-laden frankenfood. Bon appetite!

As you appear to be quite full of yourself.

from experience is being "full of yourself?" Who knew? :shrug:

they obviously aren't interested in any of your helpful answers, which btw have been quite inspiring!

Happy growing!!

:hug:

Melinda

My wife and I were talking about this the other day. We've both decided to take off some pounds and started tracking calories. Our diets drastically changed in a few days to a more vegetable, fish, and poultry diet.

So how do corn subsidies affect the price of good food? Corn subsidies encourage an overabundance of corn production which results in lower prices for animal feed (feedlots) and lower costs for processed foods, which rely heavily on corn and hfcs. While lower food prices aren't a bad thing, these subsidies also push up the prices of other fruits and vegetables by encouraging farmers to utilize productive farmland for corn rather than for other, more nutrient rich, vegetables and fruits.

you really have to be a detective to make sure that sneaky culprit isn't in the food you buy. I bought a butter-sauced brussels sprouts frozen veggie, and there was HFCS in it. Yuck! I never dreamed that it would be in there, and when I tasted the sweet butter sauce, I went back and looked at the package, and there it was HFCS. Now, I check every type of 'convenience' food.

Oh, and there are people who can't grow things, they have a black thumb. No matter, how much they try, nothing thrives for them, while for others, it's no big deal.

zalinda

The problem with fresh vegetables bought from grocery stores is that they go bad quickly. Most of them shipped from China, Mexico or India are very old before they even hit the store for you to buy them. In the current heat of global warming, potatoes, onions even dried beans can go bad very quickly. So, you have to shop every day to get fresh vegetables Or shop at a farmer's market (if you can find one) once a week.

Growing your own vegetables in quantities large enough to feed a family is not easy work. There is the problem of bugs and disease that can wipe out an entire crop in a matter of days and weeks. We planted hundred of cucurbits (winter and summer squash, honeydews, and cucumbers) and then the stink bugs came. It wasn't so much what they ate off the plants as it was the disease they spread to the plants. What is left of the plant grows, sets beautiful flowers and if the few remaining bees pollinate them, they start to set fruit. Then they suddenly die, all of them, every last one. What is left - brown dead vines with scarred, misshapen fruits.

Why the sudden stink bug invasion? Well the birds are dying and they are off their regular migration patterns. So, when the bugs come out the birds haven't arrived yet to eat them up.

Then there is drought and excessive heat which bakes seeds in the ground and shrivels tomatoes and greens. Growing and farming is not so easy. This doesn't include the huge amount of labor required to set the seed, water, compost, weed the plants, till the garden, apply organic fertilizer and attempt pest control.

Not everyone can keep a garden.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we're able to grow 100% of our food -- just enough to significantly supplement the grocery bill. The problems you mention are in your area and are not universal and has a variety of factors. Not all areas are experiencing dead birds and stink bugs. In my area it's tomato worms and aphids; however, after going several years without using insecticide and purchasing two containers of ladybugs about 4 years ago, all my pests are under control and yes, I know I'm fortunate. Maybe my situation isn't typical but I don't think yours is either.

Living in the middle of the San Joaquin Valley, we know heat and my produce isn't shriveled at all. Having said that, there are some methods I use to ensure that the roots don't burn. By engaging in container gardening, the time spent weeding and watering takes only a fraction of the time of a traditional garden.

I just really get disheartened when I see posts discouraging people from even trying to grow their own food. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. Nothing wrong with starting out slow, one or two crops, and working your way up.

We were "poor" but we had space on our land to grow corn and watermelon and squash and tomatoes and chili's and we had fruit trees too. We did have to work it...but we always had some good yield every year. The weather was temperate and the soil was fertile and the property was purchased in the 1930's when lots were spacious and cheap.
Sigh...those days are gone...up here in alaska aside from everything else I've mentioned in previous posts...you could get your crop eaten by a moose or bear...Certainly it's not impossible...but, the level of difficulty is more than you may perceive.

there's *something*.

a large chunk of poor people don't have stable housing; thus no stable place from which to "work their way up". in my work i deal with people with even no cooking facilities, no refrigerators, etc.

The pests are huge problems because, as you say, we've eliminated most of the insects' natural predators.

Thanks for posting this. :hi:

grow gardens successfully would still realize how hard it is?

It is labor intensive & constant monitoring is required. There are a lot of tricks to it. And no matter how hard you work there are always unknowns like the stinkbugs you mention. Yes--this year the battle against the heat has been awful. Stuff that should have done well isn't no matter how much you do the (what I call) "survival sips." I'm not trying to depend on the minimal stuff I grow--if I had to, life would be grim.

It's about like saying "everybody should make their own clothes." I doubt many people could just pick that up from scratch one day and add it to their many daily tasks. I can't even find time to sew up a tear and end up just wearing ragged clothes if they aren't too revealing. Safety pins come in handy. Nobody really seems to notice--too busy.

it is a very "let them eat cake" attitude.

Thankfully I have the space to grow a few tomatoes, bush beans, lettuce and some herbs. I do not have the space or the sunlight for a full on garden that can feed my family of three for the year. The space just isn't there.

On top of that, I can't imagine anybody growing much in their back yards on the South Side. Its hell in many neighborhoods, where they are all poor and have to go several miles to find a grocery store. You can't walk down the street and buy ingredients to make a salad, in many cases you'd get shot at or jumped. That environment, run down by neglect, violence and poverty, does not have space for gardens.

http://greennetchicago.org/

http://www.cpdit01.com/resources/can.community-gardens/

http://www.growingpower.org/chicago_projects.htm

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1626240/community_gardens_in_chicago.html

These are just a few; I hope you find them helpful

Melinda

nt

them in check. The secret is in the SOIL

organic gardening was THE ONLY kind of gardening for most of human history. THEY GOT BUGS. PLAGUES OF BUGS.

I swear, gardening & foodyism has replaced religion for some people.

I lose some plants to bugs but not entire crops. My bird friends and predator insects take care of MOST of the pests.

You also need to be careful about when to plant.

... what a reasonable monthly grocery bill is for a person who eats healthy.
I shop mostly at natural/organic food stores so I probably pay more for
free range undoctored meat. Vegetables and fruit do not seem overpriced,
but the prices for nuts, fruit drinks and spritzers seem high. Supplements
are high too, but you can use a vitamin card or look for values and find them.

If you're within shopping distance of an Asian or Latino supermarket, produce is usually very cheap. You see people with big shopping carts paying less than half what an American would for a typical US diet.

Preparing them does take some time and interest, and cooking is becoming a lost art in a lot of families.

As far as nutrition goes, does the author really think that anyone except the obsessed goes through each af the many nutrients and buys food specific to that nutrient? That does require money and a life of leisure.

... the real problem is that our income distribution is so lopsided in this country, even cheap food is too expensive for most of us.

As a percentage of our income, Americans pay waaaay less for food than any other country, about 7%. The second cheapest country to eat in is France, where food costs about 12% of the average income. We already use our foreign policy influence to compel developing countries to convert from domestic farming to beef production for export so we can have 99 cent burgers at our fast food restaurants and we import increasingly large amounts of our produce from developing nations where there are no labor or environmental protection laws to increase production costs above the barest minimum. Face it, we already have dirt cheap food. But, when 90% of the population has to make ends meet on only 20% of the nation's wealth and, from that 20%, we have to pay for everything from health care to transportation to education to retirement, and so on and so on, all out of our own tiny pockets, well, there's not a lot of fat in our budgets for anything, including food.

um.... "A update"??


:eyes:

grow food for livestock or ethanol. Very little is used to grow healthy produce.

Don't think so. If you're serious about healthy eating, you can easily find cheap produce to eat.

You can buy a cantaloupe for 75 cents.

Maybe on sale for $1.29 a lb. at the peak of the season. Or $2 at the farmer's market during the 2-3 "glut weeks" when the harvest peaks.

It is true that you can get pesticide- and antibiotic- and fertilizer-soaked, nutrient- and taste-leached pseudo-produce somewhat more cheaply than good, locally-grown, produce that has been exposed to a bare minimum of harmful chemicals. But there are considerable limitations on what most people can grow locally, in sufficient quantity, to be available cheaply.

It takes great effort to eat healthy on a low budget. You have to spend time-- a lot of it-- time you're not earning wages to pay your rent and insurance and kids' school clothes and other expenses-- doing any or all of these time-consuming activities:

Gardening (assuming you have a suitable site, containers, and money to buy seeds, organic plant food, tools, etc.)

Getting to and from the farmer's market or other location(s) where healthy food is available (often at strictly limited times which may or may not fit with the schedule your employer(s) expect you to keep)

Researching which options available are the least unhealthy within your budget and monitoring when/if they are available at the various food retail options you have

Shopping more often because many/most fresh, healthy raw ingredients don't have "shelf life" that will allow you to stash them in the cupboard or icebox and come back a week later to find them in pristine condition

Learning and practicing and actually preparing simple meals from scratch, which isn't at all easy if you're used to opening something, tossing it in the nuke, and hollering for the kids five minutes later

Especially if you are working two part-time jobs, or one "full-time" job where your employer tacitly expects you to work fifty hours a week in order to retain your 40-hour a week paycheck, it's a LOT easier just to go to Wally world or SuperMart on Saturday, load up on cheap, industrially-produced foodlike substances with tons of empty calories and minimal prep requirements, and then get on to the next thing on your punitively long list of stuff you have to do to survive.

Our foodshed is busted. Badly, badly busted. We need to be paying less than we currently pay for good, healthy real food, but (inevitably) more than we pay for the factory-produced imitation food that is so abundant and ubiquitous now.

Solving the problems of storage, minimal and healthy processing and packaging, and distribution to achieve healthy food available at reasonable cost to everyone everywhere will be a formidable task and currently we don't have the will to overcome the Big Agribusiness oligarchs who control our food supply system.

wearily,
Bright

you paint the picture well. Yeah, show me a 75 cent cantaloupe.

So now us pigs at the end of the trough, in order to eat healthy are compelled to: spend hours researching food, hours hunting it down, hours preparing it, and then, to get the absolute best bang for the buck we should put in the days and weeks and years it can take to grow it?

What if you can't take on "food" as a time-consuming hobby?

I've already done the home veggies growing thing and found it arduous. Have knowledge now, learned the hard way, but my location still sucks. There are many reasons why it was rejected historically as a good spot to farm. It's a small slice of the worst stony terrain in a drought prone pocket. Water is from a limited well. So I will attempt to find a community garden where you put in a couple of hours a week. That's a better way for those of us who (through no fault of our own) don't find growing it alone a practical alternative to the "industrially produced foodlike substances" offered by Agribusiness.

Still doesn't help the person who doesn't have 2 hours a week to spare. That would be a large majority
of us who like you say, do one-stop food shopping in order to move on to that "punitively long" to-do list that most of us never finish.

I grew up "mold poor". (That means learning to prepare/eat around the moldy/wilted/browning parts.)

Part of the food costs in this country is that everybody wants perfect looking food... I didn't even know until my 30's that the concept "freezer burn" existed, and that people wouldn't eat perfectly fine food because of it.

The cheapest that I've seen them here this Summer was 2/$4.00 and that was "on sale."

Sometimes they're even free.

And look closely. Vegetables!

by Barbara Kingsolver from your local library. It doesn't prove or disprove the premise of this "study", but it is skillfully written and asks some important questions about American food culture.

:)

:hi:

:sarcasm:

people who are stressed and depressed tend to eat more poorly
...the brain chemistry of stress and depression actually makes you crave certain foods with less nutrient value
something about feeding the stress mechanism in the brain...

(i did a study on this in college, can't remember all the details this early in the morning)

so if you are unemployed or struggling to make ends meet, your body may be working against you...and no amount of public service messages are gonna help.

food that can make you feel full makes you feel less deprived...works both psychologically and physically (re stress levels) I think.

I do the shopping and the cooking, we don't eat out, we generally eat fresh whole foods, and its much less expensive than any other way that I know of.

The one thing I can think is that there is a level of poverty where one works long hours and endures a lot of stress, and has no time or appetite for cooking.

1. Don't shop at chain grocery stores. (high wages of employees get passed on)
2. Cook for yourself.
3. Don't eat out.
4. Make your own babyfood if you got a tot that age.

Problems with all this:

1. Maybe chain grocery stores are all that is available.
2. Some people hate to cook or are too dumb to figure out how to do it well.
3. Saves a lot of time to eat out.
5. Takes time again.

Lol I wish that were true. Here, the chains pay close to minimum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton_family

Sure, a penny goes to the bagger, but 5 cents goes to the store manager, 10 cents to the regional manager, 15 cents to the national manager, 25 cents to the global VP, and so on.

the employees get paid shit.

if a global VP does not own stock, what are they?

roughly. That's about 400-500 a month food expenses for a family of four. Meals are built around pasta/rice/potatoes, always some meat (though not large portions), and whatever veggies are around. Some years we had large gardens and did very well growing and canning produce, but this year the weather was screwy - never got it started.

that's $931 a month. something wrong somewhere.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PXRRG3_-UdUJ:www.coverageforall.org/pdf/FHCE_FedPovertyLevel.pdf+poverty+level+family+of+four&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgXcvhTvXnu0HNpYbQcutCNCnSxVN3Zh7h6NmB0WJL2FMsk5tQGGqnBnX1W5YOU42UhT0ul-CeoteABcEriOCkC-RD5vpOnVGXWGtbTD3pq61LiYom0A4NscGLsvjbt0aIa2meh&sig=AHIEtbRx0pPdJtNkSc6jzV3TrOEgebyhiQ

if I recall correctly our state uses a higher poverty level, at least as far as qualifying for some social services. We don't actually get anything from the state as far as that goes, and largely do ok by having no car payments, no cable or phone service, very low utilities, commute by bicycle, and living in a pretty affordable area. I know being able to do all that makes me more fortunate than most...

Source: Associated Press

A 2010 update of what used to be known as the food pyramid called on Americans to eat more foods containing potassium, dietary fiber, vitamin D and calcium. But if they did that, the journal Health Affairs said, they would add hundreds more dollars to their annual grocery bill.

Video: Food pyramid axed, replaced with "My Plate"
Inexpensive ways to add these nutrients to a person's diet include potatoes and beans for potassium and dietary fiber. But the study found introducing more potassium in a diet is likely to add $380 per year to the average consumer's food costs, said lead researcher Pablo Monsivais, an assistant professor in the Department of Epidemiology and the School of Public Health at the University of Washington.

"We know more than ever about the science of nutrition, and yet we have not yet been able to move the needle on healthful eating," he said. The government should provide help for meeting the nutritional guidelines in an affordable way.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/04/health/main20087921.shtml?tag=re1.channel

---

Instead of subsidizing only the rich so they can eat healthfully, lets share the food and let the rest of at the table... I realize that the first lady supports healthful eating, but her husband supports policies that allow it for the rich only...

Junk food is way more expensive than whole food when comparing nutritional value.

You can save money and improve your nutrition by carrying your lunch with you.

Potassium from whole potatoes is cheaper than potassium from french fries.

...and good and healthy food is super-expensive what are you going to buy?

I think the expense really comes in with iron and proteins, rather than potassium and fiber. That's why so many of us poor that do try and eat a balanced, healthy diet (or drink) eat a lot of soy and beans. Beans are cheap and soy milk can be gotten at the $store and is really good on cereal.

regarding health (google it). Your other kinds of beans are better. Not saying don't eat it but only in limited amounts. Soy is hidden in lots of processed foods. Just FYI.

Bananas are high in sugars and while OK for active kids or adults would be no good for an elderly borderline diabetic. I think of bananas as good for weight gain, which most of us don't need. Anyway Bananas are only moderate sources of potassium. Canteloupes have almost twice as much. Other good sources:

Asparagus
Artichokes
Avocado
Bamboo shoots
Broccoli
Brussels sprouts
Beans (black, kidney, lentil, lima, soy)
Cauliflower
Celery
Cod
Halibut
Kale
Low-fat or nonfat plain yogurt
Mushrooms
Okra
Pinto beans
Spinach
Turnip greens
Tomatoes
Tomato juice
Vegetable juice
White beans
Cantaloupe
Dried apricots
Grapefruit
Kiwifruit
Oranges
Strawberries
Sweet potatoes

I mean yeah, the Weston A. Price people think it gives people The Gay, but otherwise? Way better for you than dairy milk, fo sho.

soy in the diet is debatable. The problem is the soy isoflavones. (google for info) All I'm saying is do some research. Here are some issues:

Thyroid:
A new clinical symptom that doctors are seeing increasingly frequently is a cluster of symptoms caused by eating too much soy. Some women are eating soy products such as tofu and tempeh, taking soy protein powders, drinking soy milk, eating soy "energy" bars, and taking soy supplements for they phytoestrogenic effect – every day! This is overdoing it and leads to blocked uptake of glucose in the brain, blocked absorption of minerals, blocked absorption of protein, and blocked thyroid function.

Infants:
Various wheat and soy protein sources, including the soy protein isolates used to make infant formulas, have been related to juvenile or insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (IDDM), a common chronic disease of childhood.

Fibroids:
A sobering finding is that soy formula has similar – although weaker – association with fibroids as does DES. This may not be surprising since both soy and DES have estrogen activity. The hormones estrogen and progesterone regulate fibroid development. In general, additional research is needed on the long term effects of early life exposure to estrogens, including soy formula, on reproductive health.

Then I want to see a good explanation why hormone-like substances in beans would be more harmful than hormones from mammal milk and tissues. And proof that they survive stomach acids and are absorbed and active in the bloodstream. Otherwise I'm calling bullshit.

edit: Nevermind, found it. Do you have a link that's not from a website selling home testing kits for a presently fashionable self-diagnosis?

Of course you'll find a lot that are pushing soy. All I'm saying is that some studies from medical literature show that the benefits are controversial and for some it may be negative. They do say "further studies are needed." I'm not here to prove anything. It's just FYI information from what I have seen and learned.

You also might be interested in the fact that in Asia they do not consume soy in the forms that we do--they use it fermented (miso, tamari, tofu). If you are eating soy, this is the best way, I was told by a Chinese doctor. Soy being a phyto estrogen is something maybe you could ask a gynecologist about (one savvy about nutritional factors). Ask an obstetrician what they think of soy for infants. For women subject to fibroids, over consumption of both soy and flax can be problematic. This is new, and I certainly don't expect the soy industry to be listening. We in the West are guinea pigs for eating soy in everything. People don't realize how much they are getting, even in a Big Mac.

I am NOT saying beans are a problem. Beans Are Fine. I am only saying soybeans (esp the way it is hidden in foods) may be a problem. Over-consumption of SOY may be a problem in this country, not consumption of other beans. I hope I am making myself clear.

This is an article that might give you some food for thought:):

http://www.utne.com/2007-07-01/Environment/How-Much-Is-Too-Much.aspx

don't have ready cash, time, or the shopping opportunities nearby you sure as hell are going to go get 5 or 10 dollars worth of burgers over spending several hours shopping, prepping, and cooking a decent meal. Nevermind if you have physical health problems already.

MUCH less growing any of it yourself.

Yes all of those things are fine and relatively simple to do yourself IF you aren't a slave to the current economic wonders of this country.

The arrogance of people who should know better still shocks me and I should know better too.

On one hand, many here know things that most poor people don't... on the hand most people who know what to do, aren't poor and don't really know how p[oor people get by. Try working three part time jobs with two-three kids to take care of in a violent neighborhood where there is no communal gardening... forget it... I'm done. People really have no clue about being poor.

I learned how to garden and can/preserve from my relatives who were all VERY poor. It's the way they survived. Interestingly enough, on DU, a supposed liberal website, home gardeners are "elitists."

And one more thing, this whole "you don't know what it's like being poor!" diatribe insults those of us who have, indeed, been very poor and very hungry. You have NO IDEA what people have/are going through in their lives so I think it's pretty damned presumptuous of you to assume you do know. I garden not as a quaint little past time, I garden to supplement my grocery bill. People on this thread have offered some wonderful suggestions on how to do this cheaply and you and a few others have denigrated their efforts at every turn. Individual/Community gardening is exploding all across the country in all types of neighborhoods. I can't express strongly enough that it's being done everyday despite the obstacles you and others have put up. Once again, here's a great link on the subject: http://www.communitygarden.org/ I invite you and others to see if you can be part of the solution of AFFORDABLY feeding ourselves which gives us less reliance on 7/11's, Monsanto, McDonald's, Cargill and WalMart.

and no, I'm not the one being presumptous. I think those of you who claim all can do this are not aware, especially for those living in urban environments.

and that your situation will improve. and in the shorter term, not 50 years down the road.

these fads are recycled again and again. you can go back to the 1800s even & see the same cycles.

those of you who are surprised to read this, need to research more!!!! Please do... your all-knowing resolve for how the poor should and could eat is arrogant and ignorant to what it really is like being poor!.

#2. more diversity of food choices geographically accessible to poorer areas and poorer people (and everybody, while we're at it).

#3. better transit so that those without cars or the ability to drive (children too) can get to the places that aren't (but should be) within walking or short distances from their homes or work.

gardening --that' great, but policies solve the problem, not individual gardens.

how do they do this in other countries --dozens already do. has how they do it in, for example, a wealthy European nation been even cited in this thread? nope.

folks, we Americans have to look beyond our borders and stop pretending every problem is complex and un-solvable in the public sphere. lots of times we only think so because we haven't looked.

With bolding added by me.



eta: not a direct response to your post, CreekDog. Just trying to move the discussion back to the OP.

:hi:

in certain circumstances it might help, but those circumstances aren't the circumstances of most people living under the poverty line.

There are always naysayers. sigh

It's a lost cause.if anyone can help me figure out how to make vegetables grow in drought and record temperatures,I'd appreciate the hints.

I see way too many people pull change out of their pockets to pay for necessities.There are people starving here.I live near a grocery store.Many parts of Dallas are NOT within walking distance of a "REAL" grocery store.
Gardens here are browning due to watering bans.
I make lima beans and such,but not everyone has the same skill level.

Inside urban green is a good website to read about them. It saves water.

And drought, and extreme heat. The arrogant and condescending comments here are unreal.

Good food should be cheap and in fact is in terms of dollars but you either pay a high price or you pay with your time.

In a society where the pressure is to work or even just "DO" something all the time and make as much money as you can, people who don't earn a lot definitely have a difficult time keeping a steadily health diet.

We're living in a world we were not evolved for.

both from old house paint and 50 some years of leaded gasoline use. You can do what my daughter did -
she dug up her postage stamp back yard and planted sunflowers, then ripped the mature plants out and sent them to the municipal dump.

http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n3/lan6n3-10.html

Recent articles would have you thinking potatoes are a junk food right up there with pop!