Lieberman Warns U.S. Democrats Against Turn to Left

http://asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=3217008



"Asked about Dean after the speech, Lieberman said a party led by a candidate who opposed the war against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and would raise taxes was buying a "ticket to nowhere.""

He could frame his picture and hang it right next to the ones of Reagan and (I kid you not) Spiro Agnew. Because if Joe doesn't want to provide us a choice that is right where he belongs.

But Dick Nixon would probably think he was OK for a Jewish guy.

<http://www.bushflash.com/dlc.html>

Neomorlocks are immoral-when cowards dance widen the circle.

Easy on Ayatollah Joe, willya?

He's doing his darnedest to represent the Taliban wing of the Democratic Party.

snip..........

"Some Democrats, on the contrary, still prefer the old, big government solutions to our problems," Lieberman said in a speech to the National Press Club. "But, my friends, with record deficits, a stalled economy and Social Security in danger, we can't afford that."

Lieberman did not name any of his opponents but took a shot at their political stands on a range of issues.

snip..........

"If George Bush and his bankrupt ideology are the problem, believe me, old Democratic policies like higher taxes and weakness on defense are not the solution," Lieberman said. "We need to reclaim the vital center of American politics for the Democrats."

snip.......

Lieberman had promised not to run for president this year if Gore was in the race. He also he doesn't expect Gore to change his mind and get in now, but won't drop out if he does.

"I've crossed a bridge," he said. "I'm in this for the duration."

more........

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-lieberman,0,5361767.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

I'll grant that Lieberman's probably done a fair to middlin' job as a Senator over the years - but the man was absolutely none of the leadership qualities we need in the WH. Sorry, Joe, but your political career shall go no further. Get ready to start spending more time with the grandkids.

Time to retire Joe!

again I am going to :puke:. What does defense have to do with a pre-emptive assault? He sounds like professional winger... always offering false or incomplete dichotomies. He just doesn't get it.

Jay

... more or less than an attack on Dean, while folks are busy dissing Dean for criticising and acting like Holy Joe and Kerry are Mr. and Mrs. High Road.

Spare me. Let the primary battles commence :)

Hey Joe, I'll put the Dem war vets up against the Republican chickenhawks any day of the week, fuck you very much.

only imagine who he's secretly hooked up with and what their agenda is!?

BigLieman feels he has the bully pulpit with cnn and all the corporate media behind him. God they must loath the interntet!

Vive democraticunderground.com and all the rest of our sites! :kick:

www.joe2004.com :wtf:

And Clinton/Gore cut the federal government by over 340,000 workers while overseeing the creation of 22 million jobs.

Bush has bloated government, overseen a net loss of over 3 million jobs, and assisted defense contractor CEO pay to rise by several hundredfold from 2000 to 2002.

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/defensedollars.html

Lieberman is full of crap if he expects to pin the "big government" tag on Democrats and make it stick.

Do your research, Joe!

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

Vote for Joe the Right Wing HO! in 04'!

:kick: No to Joe!!!!!!!!!!

Lieberman: Dems Must Shun Gov't Programs

Holy Joe is a whore in a brothel that is still claiming to be a virgin!

Q: Where can you get a job that will give you a full pension after only 2 years?

A: Congress!

Q: Where can you get a job that will give you full health benefits, including catastrophic hospitalization, for a nominal fee?

A: Congress!

Q: Where can you get a job where you decide what your salary is going to be, and where you can give yourself a pay raise?

A: Congress!

Holy Joe gets government handouts. Holy Joe is a welfare Queen!

... just like the stereotypical self-hating Jew. Coincidence? Maybe...

The Democrats are for higher taxes, Joe? The Democrats are for a weak national defense? Are these REALLY statements that you want to put on the record?

The center is nice, but overrated. Voting is a little more fractal than GOP base -- center -- Democrat base.

That's what he is.
:puke:

... I just think that he's been exposed to Washington, politics, and business a little to long to say what needs to be said right now. I don't think he has a clear idea.

Joe's been reading the election tea leaves for years & years--he knows what to look for--his statement is about issues that win and positions that lose elections. Clinton used to look at it the same way & , as I recall, was pretty successful.

I fail to see it as a moniker that I would want to wear.

To me Log Cabin bring to mind images of Hillbillies, Hatfeilds and McCoys.

US is his 2nd citizenship!

I prefer the nowhere of Clinton's peace and prosperity to Joe's support of somewhere under Bush.

..

n/t

not "Turn to Right"!


:dem:

So our platform should consist of cheerful agreement with the two most disastrous policies of B*sh?

BTW, how the hell is repealing a bunch of giveaways to the uber-wealthy a tax raise?

I'm trying really hard not to say anything negative about any of the Dem candidates, but I don't know if this Lieberman character should even be considered a Democrat anymore. I think he's a stealth Green.

The sooner he is out the better for our Country! :kick:

since he seems to agree with * on a fair number of issues. Yes, he he says Bush is taking the country in the wrong direction, but when when it comes to specific issues Iraq, Tax Cuts, Cuba, Gay Marriage, and Violent Video Games, he is either in complete agreement with Bush or just a hair to the left but the difference is minute. So why the hell run?

And just supose he gets the nomination – juding by the poll numbers – he will start out with a base of some 40-45% of the electorate that would vote for a fica plant if it ran against Bush. So then, of course his job would be to get some 11-6% of the electorate to decide to vote for him rather than Bush. This is where he comes a cropper. There is no earthly reason for anybody to pick Liberman over Bush, except that Liberman is a democrat. And he has those votes already. So the question remains why run?

And these days I notice he only gets press if the disses his own party. Not the best tatic to get support later in the race.

Like I keep saying he peaked the day he annouced. He may not make it out of NH alive.

:hippie:

Lieberman's voting record is actually pretty good but he spends at least as much time bashing Dems as Bush. BTW, does Dean advocate raising taxes or is that just Lieberman spinning Dean's positions?

I don't like Bush's policies and I don't like Democrats policies. Is that Joe's message? Joe needs to go out into the wilderness and stay there.

I thought not. His web site includes many substantive proposals on improving the economy, expanding our manufacturing sector, achieving energy independence, etc.

If you were truly a liberal (as so many around here claim to be), you'd actually visit his web site and read his proposals before passing judgment on this candidate.

Too bad Joe has to diss his own party just to "break from the pack". If I heard
him say "all these people have great ideas and I would stand behind who-so-ever
gets the nomination", I would feel like he's a real Democrat.
Though, no one has said that yet, I feel Lieberman never would. Call it a hunch.

We need someone who'll stand up against Bush, not someone who stands up
against his own party....

anyways, i've ranted enough.

NT

It ain't gonna be Joe, not any mo'.

but i will criticize ANY democrat who attacks other Democrats, or spins their positions, instead of prostelitizing their own positions. I don't expect any of them to . He should concentrate on attacking the pukes. All I can say , as an undecided, is "Points off for this one Joe"

Curious: why would JL need to attack another Dem?

He should try to define his own positions and show that he can bring the Democratic Party together and not rip it apart.


I would say that goes for all candidates.

Did you ever go to a job interview thinking that you would score points by dissing the prior candidate?

After all, he's been dissing Democrats -- fellow candidates, Terry McAuliffe, the DLC, Democrats in Congress -- throughout his campaign.

Because he's attacked more Democrats than any other candidate in the field.

for not acting and working like Democrats - not for being too Democrat! Hold others feet to the fire, that's fine, but don't come up to us and say, it isn't any good being a Dmocrat anymore. We don't have to take it, and we won't.


edit: too upset

So it's wrong for Democrats to attack fellow Democrats -- EXCEPT when Dean attacks fellow Democrats for not acting the way Dean thinks they should act.

Yeah, right.

And I didn't see one single solitary word about all of the people who have been dragged off to Gitmo in the wee hours of the night by jackbooted Homeland Defense thugs, denied access to legal counsel or trial, never to be seen or heard from again. Strangely, I also did not see a single word there about the twisted remains of innocent Iraqi civilians being dragged from the rubble of buildings destroyed by US missile strikes against a sovereign state which posed no imminent threat to US security. Sorry, dolstein, improving the economy's nice, but the shredding of our constitution for the sake of national security is a number 10 to me, I cannot now or ever support a candidate who will not speak out against those crimes and, of course, since Lieberman was instrumental in helping to bring about those crimes, he's hardly in a position to comment on them, is he?

but I suspect that the typical voter is far more concerned with the state of the economy than with the Patriot Act.

I can't speak for other voters, I can only decide what I personally can and cannot live with and I'm sorry, but the creation of a police state, for me at least, definitely falls under the latter category. And yes, I am a card carrying ACLU member and proud of it, thanks! :)

don't believe it. BUsh wants someone to be a Clinton and just take all that crap. And the US public wants A FIGHT! and Dean is going to BRING IT!

We Democrats are the liberal party, while Republicans are the conservative party. Nice and simple. Crisp, clear distinctions.

You have uncovered the sinister Democratic plot of being intentionally weak on defense! FD Roosevelt, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Clinton... all conspired to expose this country to invasion, only to be foiled by the heroic Republicans!

What a moran...


I would like to see someone like Clark get the nomination, but I like Dean, too. A LOT. What I have said up to this point is that I would even vote for Holy Joe if he got the nomination...

I'm re-thinking that, now.

. . . "What a maroon, what a maroon!"

Bugs had a million of 'em!

As a single and childfree taxpayer, I hardly noticed the tax cut. In fact, I don't recall getting one. I did get the $300 rebate, but it went to pay off bills and to help Planned Parenthood.

In regards to Iraq, the war was WRONG and the chaos over there now is looking like Vietnam redux.

is an invitation for me to stay home on Election Day.

Joe turns clear when he gets diarrhea. Honest to God.

That is a threat.

I finally made the same decision last night, but - given the fond memories of old tangles on *alph *ader threads - what *will* you do if Joe is the nominee?

give the DLC crowd real McGovern flashbacks instead of their hyperventilating concerns for anyone who isn't a derelegulating, firebreathing, death to Muslim's crusader.

I might even vote directly Republican.

It's going to have to get much worse before it gets better. I say let the Republicans have their little party. Let them destroy this country and see how the citizenry reacts.

Maybe I'd go Greeeeeeeeeennnnnnn

that Lieberman borrow the sock Chimp used to stuff in his flight suit, and use it to stuff his mouth shut. The last thing we need is to become more conservative.

:kick:

Look at the good side to all this. Gore was a liberal. Clinton was a Republican Democrat (like Lieberman). Gore was getting back at Clinton for using him for 8 years while Clinton sold out America. So in 2000 a liberal like Gore that wrote a book called Earth in the Balance was elected president. So the only way Lieberman and the Republican democrats were able to win was to fix the election.

So who exactly is the candidate that will go nowhere? A DLC sell out like Clinton and Lieberman.

Kennedy unlike Lieberman and Clinton was a card carrying liberal. Gore though perhaps not a card carrying liberal would have been one in office, both Gore and Kennedy were elected president and both had it stolen from them by the Republicans.

Dirty little goverment of this our Country!

..did Gore pick Lieberman to be his VP? No wonder he almost didn't win the election.

IMHO, because of the Jewish vote, esp. in FL, and because he thought a more balanced ticket of left-leaning and right-leaning Dems would be more formidable than pure Left. I do think though on that second count there were some better choices than Joe, so I believe the Jewish vote did play a big role in his choice.

(and I doubt that many are, since people around here prefer to attack Lieberman without knowing the facts), here's the link to the text of his speech:

http://www.joe2004.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5569

To put it in boxing terms, when the opponent is covering up on his right, a left hook is not going to knock him out. We've got to go right up the middle.

Nifty allegory, but *why* won't a left hook work?

Some Democrats still prefer old, big government solutions to our problems. But with record deficits, a stalled economy and Social Security in danger, we can't afford that. It won't work.

How much have we spent on our glorious invasion of Iraq?

Some Democrats respond to the health insurance crisis with a break-the-bank $2 trillion program -- leaving no money to create new jobs, invest in our schools, support our firefighters and cops, or shore up Social Security.

Those given to cynicism might say that wanting money for schools and social security sounds like some kind of damned big government solution...

But we've got a record trade deficit and our manufacturers are hemorrhaging jobs.

Gee. I wonder why that could be...

Some have said no to any tax cuts, and would even raise taxes on the middle class. But middle-class families have borne the brunt of George Bush's failed economic leadership, so we must help them, not burden them even more. That's right for America, and right for the Democratic Party.

Fair enough. Where does the money come from?

Some said "no" to eliminating Saddam Hussein, or were ambivalent about it, before and after the war. But we must not shrink from the use of force when our security and our values are at stake.

What security and what values were at stake, Joe?

Shall I go on, dolstein?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4326.htm

"After * was elected in 2000 a presidential study group authored "Navigating through turbulence : America and the middle east in the new century". The authors were guided by a steering group including Joe Lieberman, Paul Wolfowitz and Mort Zuckerman. The two main targets listed were Iraq and Syria".

Talk about a turn-coat. I would love to see his career go completely down the tubes on this election.

People complain about Dean bashing fellow Democrats, but this speech by far is the most filled with bashes against other Democrats I've ever seen. I think Lieberman might have spent more time chiding the other Democrats than he does Bush.

.........................

Here's the meat of his Demo-Bash-Fest:

Now, if George Bush and his bankrupt ideology are the problem, old Democratic policies like higher taxes and weakness on defense are not the solution. We need to reclaim the vital center. That is the way for Democrats to earn the opportunity to govern again. And that is the leadership I offer my party and my country.

To put it in boxing terms, when the opponent is covering up on his right, a left hook is not going to knock him out. We've got to go right up the middle.

I am an independent-minded, mainstream Democrat and I am running for President to restore security and prosperity to the country and fairness and integrity to the White House.

Some Democrats still prefer old, big government solutions to our problems. But with record deficits, a stalled economy and Social Security in danger, we can't afford that. It won't work. That old way is wrong for America, and wrong for the Democratic Party.

Some Democrats respond to the health insurance crisis with a break-the-bank $2 trillion program -- leaving no money to create new jobs, invest in our schools, support our firefighters and cops, or shore up Social Security. That would be wrong for America, and wrong for the Democratic Party.

Some would raise the walls of protectionism again. But we've got a record trade deficit and our manufacturers are hemorrhaging jobs. We need more markets, not fewer. Bridges, not barriers. That is right for America, and right for the Democratic Party.

Some have said no to any tax cuts, and would even raise taxes on the middle class. But middle-class families have borne the brunt of George Bush's failed economic leadership, so we must help them, not burden them even more. That's right for America, and right for the Democratic Party.

Some let the perfect be the enemy of the good and rejected a prescription drug plan, sacrificing the interests of our elderly on the altar of politics. I stood with Ted Kennedy in saying that we must begin providing older Americans with the medicines they desperately need.

Some are silent about the marketing of violent or sexual entertainment to our children. But we should be allies with parents in the struggle to protect their kids.

Some said "no" to eliminating Saddam Hussein, or were ambivalent about it, before and after the war. But we must not shrink from the use of force when our security and our values are at stake. That is right for America, and right for the Democratic Party.

Doing what's right for America and for our party are truly one and the same. I share the anger of my fellow Democrats with George Bush and the wrong direction he has taken this nation. But the answer to his outdated, extremist ideology is not to be found in the outdated extremes of our own. That path will not solve the challenges of our time, and could send us Democrats back to the political wilderness for years to come.

.........................


BTW, until Joe challenges the US military for pushing the propaganda/recruitment FPS "American Army" (or whatever it's called) then I will consider him a hypocrite of the highest caliber.

I am still for Dean.......who by the way is more conservative on govenment that Lieberman.

<yawn>

Lieberman is Satan to these people. And no matter what you say you aren't going to change their mind. To them Lieberman is:

Satan
The Devil
Evil
A Republican
Anti-gay
Anti-Civil Rights
Anti-Left
Not pure
Beholden to Israel
More supportive of Israel than America
Anti-Black
Anti-Labor
Conservative

and even more things that I can't remember.

The facts clearly contradict most, if not a vast majority, of these claims. But these people hate Lieberman for other reasons that have nothing to do with his political positions.

And I say this as someone who is supporting Dean.

dolstein challenged people to read Lieberman's whole speech. Many of us did and offered comments. Were we supposed to be magically convinced that he's the Great White Hope of liberalism?

But the same lies get spilled about Lieberman over and over again when disproven.

you respond in a subthread where people are discussing Joes actual words, and his actual speech. In that particular subthread the behaviors you site, are not present. Can't you at least give equal time to those who are critical of the actual record, not just giving knee-jerk paint with the broad brush reactions? Both do occur, you know.

"But these people hate Lieberman for other reasons that have nothing to do with his political positions."

you wanna clarify... for the record?

peace

This board has a lot of anti-Israeli sentiment. And among a few posters his religion is a major part of their dislike for him.

Substitute Lieberman with JFK and Israel with the Vatican you will get will point.

"But these people hate Lieberman for other reasons that have nothing to do with his political positions."

St. jiacinto has looked into evil DU'ers eyes and seen into their soul... i guess :shrug:

it looks to me as if they/we don't support his pro corporate/status-quo postions and to some that ain't good enough.

well i'll i have to say to that is... GET OVER IT ;->

peace

The "facts," you say?

The speech has Lieberman declaring his right wing views to be superior to the right wing views of Bush and the left wing views of progressives. The rest is boilerplate ("I imagine prosperity, I imagine peace," etc.).

You're welcome to his conservative vision; if I wanted this stuff, I'd vote Republican.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps people have been paying attention to what Joe has to say and it's because of his positions that they dislike him? Why do you so offhandingly dismiss anyone who doesn't happen to agree with your candidate of choice as someone who simply hasn't bothered to educate themselves on the issues? That's pretty arrogant, don't you think?

And most people on DU are flagrantly -- indeed, willfully and defiantly -- ignorant of Joe Lieberman's record.

And it is a pretty liberal record, indeed. But he has all but negated that record by his selling-out to the corporatist/republican/christian right over the past several years. Now, you may say, don't listen to his speeches - they are just to get him elected - once in office he'll go back "left". Well, that is what the repugs have to do - move to the center, get elected, move to the right. They do this because their policies and programs and ideas do not appeal to the American people (that's why they have to lie to start a war, why they had to have a "Reichstag" fire in order to begin limiting our freedoms). Democrats don't have to lie to get power and if they do, they are the same as Republicans. Period.

Said it better than I.

...
Meanwhile, Dean struck back at a primary rival, Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman, who warned on Friday that Dean’s opposition to the war in Iraq and his push for complete repeal of the Bush tax cuts could be a “ticket to nowhere’’ for Democrats on Election Day 2004.

“I disagree with Joe,” Dean said. “He’s served this country well, but he’s been on the wrong side of a lot of issues and I simply disagree with his assessment. I think my policies are a ticket to the White House.’’
...
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/Main.asp?SectionID=25&SubSectionID=377&ArticleID=85948
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=11856&mesg_id=11856

Joe seemed like such a nice man in 2000.

Joe seems to have grown a spine since 2000, at least when it comes to trashing Dem contenders for president.

Just a few metres away from him. My immediate impression was, now there's someone full of themselves. After all his quotes they've run on BBC World Service, where at first I thought I was listening to a Rethug spokesthug (and maybe I was), I regard him as the enemy.

- Why is lieberman actually promoting Rwing myths? What a fool.

Holy Joe actually IS a rightwinger?

coming out of Al From's mouth.

Pity poor Jealous Joe Lieberman these days. No one cares what he says and no one listens to him anymore.

This Wednesday, August 6th, more than 70,000 people are signed up in more than 450 cities -- in all 50 states -- to rally for Howard Dean.

This week Howard Dean is on the cover of Time, Newsweek and U.S News and World Report...and on Larry King tonight.

Howard Dean's fundraising continues to outraise all other Democratic Candidates.

Howard Dean's poll numbers continue to rise...Lieberman's continue to sink.

Everytime that Jealous Joe attacks Howard Dean he enhances Dean's poll numbers.

Thank you Jealous Joe.

think about it, what is "his base" ? He doesnt have one, democrats cant stand him.

He is stewing in his envy. Expect him to continue to attack Dean more and more.

I expect him to not endorse Dean either after Dean is nominated.

Why?

Because Jealous Joe can't help himself.

Pitty him.

Looneyman so boring.

Looneyman so dull!

or read his speeches. I didn't like him in 2000 and I don't like him now. Even aside from anything else (of which there is plenty) do we really need another holy roller of any faith peering in our bedrooms?

"not electing lieberman"

I'm sick of that Alexander Hamilton looking neo-con

Ditto ditto ditto!

We don't need Republican light DLC darlings; you guys have socked it to us enough already with NAFTA and throwing people off welfare without a safty net. Get out Joe.

Given what an asshole Lieberman has turned out to be, I'm surprised that there was never much discussion of how much damage he did to the Democratic ticket in 2000. At least Nader stands for principles that I can identify with- I'm starting to think we'be been blaming the wrong guy for the Democratic defeat....

. . . that you are going to quit bashing Nader?

Here's the itinerary for your trip:

January 19th, 2004 Iowa Caucuses (Gephardt wins)

January 27th, 2004 New Hampshire Primary (Dean wins)

February 3rd, 2004
Delaware Presidential Primary (Dean wins)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Gephardt wins)
South Carolina Presidential Primary (Edwards wins)

Februray 4th, 2004 Lieberman withdraws

He shouldn't be. He talks just like a Republican. I'm sure they're waiting with open arms. They let Jews in now, right?

Well, except at the country club.

http://www.joe2004.com/site/PageServer

Here's the link to Joe's website- Enjoy !

Joe's been reading the election tea leaves for years & years--he knows what to look for--his statement is about issues that win and positions that lose elections. Clinton used to look at it the same way & , as I recall, was pretty successful.

and Joe, his running mate and both houses weren't to successful, as I recall.

Funny ain't it? Joe talks pretty tuff when it comes to kicking the ass of brown skinned people who live across the ocean.....you know when it ain't him that has to do the fighting. Strange how he runs away with his tail between his legs when our electoral process has been hijacked, then turns around and licks the hands of the criminals who did it. Talk about being week on National Defense.

RC

The hand-licking he's doing are the peoples' hands, not the System's nor the GOP.

If Lieb has no cred, then why did Gore pick 'em?

Joe Knows.

Sorry Chief but Enron ain't the people, nor is John Asscroft, Donald Rumsfeld or Katherine Harris.

RC

I really detest Joe.

Not only that but I disagree with him at nearly every turn. I take offense to his "now is not the time" speech. I'll tell you what time it is Joe, it's time to stop looking at a partisan poll to decide which way the wind blows. It's time to actually present the American people with actual viable alternatives to the adminstratation that has been appointed to them for the last four years. It's time for someone with the balls to say "guess what, 60% of you are wrong in this issue, and I'm here to explain why -- you elect leaders, and I will lead, not follow." Just once in my life I yearn for a politician who just came out and said, "this is my conviction this is what I believe, and if you don't agree with that you should vote for someone else." I would vote for the man on the spot.

Not only that but I completely RESENT the idea that ideological convictions are something that one just "throws away" when they become unfavorable. I don't believe in strong centralized social government because its cute or cool -- I don't believe in it when polls say support is high only. I believe it in because I believe it is R I G H T and its still right when the chips are down. I believe that Americans should be taxed, and that taxes aren't a bad word. I believe that it is not possible to both have a complete and decent health care system for every American, appropriate social security and drug benefits, a descreased poverty rate, a rise in the quality of American Education, safer streets, and a job for every American who wants to work AND at the same time not collectively pay taxes for those programs. I however, believe that the people who this country has made fantastically wealthy should shoulder a much greater load of that overall burden while easing that burden on the poor. They should do so eagerly, willingly as a wonderful part of the role that play in this great society. But when they don't feel that way, the government should make them take on that role. I thought that was what being a Democrat was about.

I am for strong defense - not offense, not a military armada that is 10 times more powerful than the next thirteen largest armies in the world - combined. I am not for Empire and I never will be. I'm not for taking over the world for our corporate interests. But I am for a strong defense of our homeland. I am not for using the military as a revenue generating machine for huge military contracts for ridiculous spending. But I am for a well trained army that is sleak, and efficent and defense of our nation, not dominating the entire planet. I thought that was what being a Democrat was about.

I am for the protection of civil liberties, not the erroding of our personal freedoms under the false pretense of "security." I am for personal freedom in all its forms, including the freedom to make personal choices about our bodies, our sex lives, and our form or worship or lack there of, free and independant from government interference. I thought that was what being a Democrat was about.

I am for a general attitude that says: people first, profit second. Not one that ceases to care about the free market, or stops believing in what are commonly called "american values" -- but one that really does put compassion into the mix, one that things about the need of others and seeks to create real solutions. I am for caring about the individual's rights and well being and against corporate welfare. I thought that was what being a Democrat was about.

Please allow me to vent for a second: I am sick and FUCKING TIRED of Democrats who aren't Democrats -- who offer me no real difference from the other party...

Oh I'm a democrat, but I don't want to raise taxes for the sake of much needed social reform.

Oh I'm a democrat, but you'll never catch me talking about a bloated defense budget leaving the nation with rotting schools, starving kids and jobless Americans.

Oh I'm a democrat, but you won't catch me taking a controversial stand like standing up for gay rights, or speaking out in opposition to an immoral war.

Oh I'm a democrat but I have no plan or committment to public education, here let me throw some vouchers at the problem.

Oh I'm a democrat, but....


The bottom line is, we really don't have two parties anymore and I'm so sick of it I could vomit.
Sel

:toast:

Great rant.

I am just grieving that the same man who walked for civil rights when that was downright dangerous has turned into a moralistic foist-my-views-on-everyone person, and a person wholely owned by banks and insurance companies, and too much allegiance to Israel "right or wrong."

Would love to see the old Joe back.

These are the values and ideals that constitute the Democratic Party to me. Thanks for the speech, it's one of the best I've heard in a while. What you have outlined is the essense of patriotism, imho.

Don't fret too much over Lieberman. He is a nasally, dried-up old prune, and he won't be around much longer. He would not have a prayer of winning a general election.

My reaction to him is this: :boring:

who would vote for a whiney, butt kissing, agreeable to everybody who sucks elephant dicks, obvious anti-average-american fool.

Am I on the right thread? Who did I just describe?

Certainly none to me...I was just wondering,,,if I could imagine Chomsky speaking out about the benefits of the PNAC, then that might come close to how he sounds to me...He offers me nothing whatsoever.

And hey, from what the DLC's polls tell me, that's a way to win both campaign contributions and elections. The Democrats are a large enough organization to attract all manner of support from the American Center, if that's where Democrats choose to place their bets.

However, I wonder if he sees that such a stance gives a lot of slack to the GOP to drift further rightward (is that even possible?) Because moderation in American winner-take-all politics is dependent on a compromise position of two adversaries, Sen. Lieberman is setting us up for compromises drifting ever further to the right wing's liking. This strategy of "catch the center" is a reactive one that cannot succeed, in the long run.

At some point, one has to take a stand on policy and shift the center. This is what the GOP has done since the Reagan era, with mixed success to be sure. The Democrats are forced into a rather uncomfortable position because of insufficient agitprop at the level of individual citizens, not because Democratic policies were inherently flawed compared to republican ones.

The notion of a party representing an American center is a good one, and if it attracted as many moderate republicans as it lost left Democrats to third parties or, even worse, apathy, then it could be a winner. If there were room in American politics for a vibrant third party, then Joe would be doing a service by asking the Democrats to stand in the middle. As it is, he's carving out a stretch of turf in a barren policy wasteland and demanding that all the relatives move in.

What Lieberman and the DLC have never realized is that as soon as you give Repukes an inch, they'll take a mile. They won't say thank you or acknowledge that you've attempted to meet them halfway, they'll just exploit your weakness and assume an even more extreme right-wing position. Since, in moving towards the center, Dems like Lieberman had to abandon their former Democratic positions in favor of the new centrist ones, the public will perceive that both sides of the debate are now in consensus that the old Democratic positions are now officially history, and the entire political spectrum will shift to the right, with today's center becoming tomorrow's perceived left. And the process repeats itself every time centrists sell out to achieve a new center, which is an impossibility as the center will move farther and farther to the right every time they sell out the left and they'll have to move even farther to the right to catch up with the new "center." A center can only exist so long as there are two teams pulling on opposite ends of the rope: if both are pulling on just one side, all of the rope collects on that side.

Lieberman is advocating seeking the center, but like a dog chasing his tail, the very act of seeking causes it to move. Dems have to move the center left, not let the center move Dems right.

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It is still not too late for you to file as a Republican.
They need more moderates. And you sound a lot like the last republican moderate I remember, before Jeffords left the party.

Go to them Joe, they need you. Democrats, on the other hand, will go ahead and fight to get the middle class back off life support.

WASHINGTON, Aug. 4 — Staking out the political center, Senator Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut warned today that nominating Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont, as the Democrat to face President Bush in 2004 would be "a ticket to nowhere."

During an appearance here at the National Press Club, Mr. Lieberman was asked about the increased attention in the news to Dr. Dean. Mr. Lieberman said: "A candidate who was opposed to the war against Saddam, who has called for the repeal of all of the Bush tax cuts — which would result in an increase in taxes on the middle class — I believe will not offer the kind of leadership America needs to meet the challenges that we face today."

<http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/05/politics/campaigns/05LIEB.html?ex=1060660800&en=e9195374d8af134e&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE>

www.house.gov/paul *on representative Ron Paul, then *on Neo..Conned, then you can go to www.philosophpages.com/index and *on Niccolo Machiavelli . strange but true......and really scary!!! do you hear this a lot about Bush and politics in general..."What the hell is going on!!"....Dr Ron Paul explains it really well. :tinfoilhat:

It will be almost impossible for Lieberman to win the nomination. So please don't waste your energy worrying about that.

And we do need all the Democratic senators we can get. The reason is that whichever party has the most senators really controls the Senate. A Democratic president will find it hard to get anything done without Democratic senators.

eom

except for the war they don't seem to be very far apart on policy. I don't get the divisiveness amoung democrats.

fuck all, how bad to things have to get?

Lieberman's just hoping AWOL will pick him as VP after Dick is forced to retire.

What the hell was Gore thinking in '02. Is Liberman afraid to go to the left? Is he targeting Dean becuse that is who is taking Libermans votes in the polls? Is that who the DLC is saying to go after and Liberman has no ability to think on his own?

When we go 'left' nationally, we lose.
:puke::hippie:

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And there's a hell of a lot of difference betwee a moderate Democrat like Bill Clinton and a right-wing Republican like George Bush. Perhaps you're so far to the left that you can't tell the difference, but most of us can.

Sorry, but the argument that if you don't back a left-winger you may as well vote Republican simply doesn't resonate with me. But hey, it worked with a few thousand voters in Florida in 2000, and look where it got us.

Our party has a personality disorder.

Having said that, I do admire those on the left-left who stand for what the believe in, even though they will lose (this time around anyway).

The fact is that he ran for HIS Senate seat, while pretending to be part of a larger national campaign. Now, some of you may cite me other historical instances of other VP Nominees doing the same. I haven't researched the issue.

But I guess from where I stand (as a young school romantic), that feels like the political equivalent of geting fucked without being kissed.

Oh please Lieberman......I am soooo sick of being warned.
bush warns of impending doom almost everyday, its called
scare tactics and I for one am sick of it.
If you want my vote you better get off the WARNING kick
and make your campaign one of ideas and attraction versus
Warnings and fear mongering.

The only reason he's running is because of Gore (I can't forgive him for choosing such a poor running mate). Joe's Republican 'leaning', which he obviously thinks is the way to go, is a major turn-off for progresive thinking people.

Well, Joe knows all about that...unfortunately someone gave him a return ticket.....

Go Away you DINO.....

TB

If the Left had the kind of radio saturation and support of the mainstream media that the radical right has (hell, if we could just get two or three good radio shows syndicated nationally, like Bernie Ward and Mike Malloy) Liberalism would enjoy a huge resurgence almost immediately. The fact is, there are so many people out there who have had zero opportunity to hear our message, whose views of the Left and what we stand for are shaped entirely by the voices of right-wing assholes who have defined what we stand for instead of hearing the truth. Without any widespread attempt at rebuttal from our side, Joe Sixpack is inclined to simply believe the lies about the Left they've had hammered into their heads for the past 10 years by the Limbaugh and similar shows. The Left is never going to regain their former prominence until they start really getting their message out and refuting the lies, point by point, that are being used to smear our image, while simultaneously building up the GWB’s of the world based on more spin and deception. The truth is that we hold the more popular views on most of the issues, but we've failed to get our message and reasoning out to enough people.. For example if all they ever hear is limpballs telling them that we favor legislation to require higher mpg cars because we want 'big government to take your ‘freedom’ to own an SUV away because we’re all a bunch of out-of-touch eco-nazi’s who buy into the globally debunked notion of global warming’, and never get to hear the real reasoning behind our views, they are going to think that we don’t fight back because what he’s saying is actually true. The net result being that we look like a bunch of ‘Un-American ’ jerks who hate freedom, just like them thar terra-ists. We have got to do a better job of explaining ourselves, or loserman will prove to be 100% correct. We cannot win with a left-leaning candidate. But I say that’s only because so few people really understand what being Left really means and that’s due to a lack of people on the air explaining it to them.