Wife: Soldiers in Iraqi Abuse Case Are Scapegoats

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040504/us_nm/iraq_abuse_soldiers_dc&cid=1896&ncid=1480


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners were following orders and are being used as scapegoats to protect their superiors, the wife of one of the soldiers and the lawyer for another said Tuesday.


Martha Frederick defended her husband, a soldier who faces prosecution for the abuse of Iraqis at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"He was told to do these things and when he did them he thought that he was doing them in the sense of national security," Frederick said.

The U.S. military has brought charges of assault, cruelty and maltreatment against six soldiers, members of a military police battalion

They were called Nazis.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

It's not just for Nazis anymore...

:evilfrown:

adherences set forth in the code of conduct. A well regulated and efficient militia requires it. When a person joins military they give up most of their rights, but one stipulation is their ultimate employer is the U.S. Constitution. A principle also set forth is not following or carrying out an unlawful order. When I was in the military this was stressed over and over. Unfortunately the most egregious unlawful orders being given out at this time are by George W. Bush. This is now much more serious than what was done before but is part of the same pattern.

Sniper fire on caretakers for the wounded, murder of news reporters with bombing of their facilities and real time but unreported terrorism of civilians in city and townships. The whole invasion and occupation was with a bent for fostering chaos and hardships for the inhabitants of the country. The thuggery is getting close to the lowest levels. When you see more abhorrent butchery and debauchery taking place from both sides, don't be surprised, because you should know by now why it was coming.

When you work for a country that can do whatever it wants in the interest of "national security" and you see politicians using that pathetic excuse for outrageous, abhorrant behavior, yeah, you think you can do it too. Alot of people are getting blank checks on major transgressions in the interest of patriotism. Ain't that what true leadership is?

Right from the get go, the Geneva Convention, the World Court and any other overseeing body were been beaten into submission. It's almost odd that we are even acknowledging when the world is objecting to our behavior at this late juncture. Why start now? We can sanction and punish anyone who complains.

When you have no effective leadership people can agree on, people start doing what they think would be the correct path. They may have beaten the so called leaders of some of these institutions into submission, but they never got near the ideas that spawned them.

This is not even patriotism these people are doing, it's really just a jingoist creed. Cults operate in much the same way. This also could be seen coming a long time ago, as they adulterated or bastardized of our language and operated secret societies and a shadow government. Now they are out in the open and have exposed themselves for what they are.

It's now push come to shove, my way or the highway, submit or we crush you. Moral high ground would be one that does not seek a separate way because it eventually wins out on its own merits.

"Administration timeline of events
Bush learned of the allegations sometime after the Pentagon began an investigation in late January and first saw the pictures when they became public last week, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Tuesday."

January!!!! for fuck's sake!!!! In other words, they did exactly what they did in the Plame case - try to cover it up for months in the hopes it would go away, then scramble like an overturned hill of ants when the press finally rouses itself from its slumber.

There are such things as illegal orders, and I thing that this matter would qualify.

However, we also need to get to the higher ups, the ones who were ordering the guards to committ these atrocities. If we don't, we're just setting ourselves up for more atrocities later.

But they should be punished severely anyway.

If they were so sure that everyone was OK with what they were doing that they took pictures, there certainly was approval within the chain of command.

They were SMILING, for Gods Sake. showing signs of ENJOYING THIS SHIT.

NO

They cannot lie their way out, thats the Republican way.

They have to APOLOGIZE TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE THEN CUT OFF THIER "PINKY"
to show remorse and sincerity.

Who the hell would "follow such orders". Remember the US hanged some better men for a lot less. Read the Nuremberg evidence.

One of the family members said that they complained and were told to just go back and do what the CACI interrogators wanted them to do. They were told to "loosen up" the prisoners for the CACI people. The man in the photo packed in ice apparently was "interrogated" by the CACI people until he had a heart attack and died.

The scenario I heard from one of the soldier's uncle was that the kids tried to think of a way to scare the prisoners with the least brutality, and they took pictures to use as bribes on subsequent prisoners, as in "this could happen to you".

There is a huge mess because CACI was the middleman between the soldiers and those higher on the chain of command. The "interrogators" apparently aren't held to the Geneva conventions or any other military law. This just absolutely reeks.

I'm not making excuses, but it looks like when some of the soldiers tried to resist, they were ignored and it looked like they really had no choice but to be abusive. This is corroborated by the fact that nothing was done about this UNTIL the media got hold of the pictures. These pictures are old. What does that tell you about whether the higher ups cared about this at the time they found out about it. The didn't remove the officer in charge of the prison until CBS published the pics.

It's like that old parable about the frog in hot water, if you turn the water temp. up slowly the frog dies. Which should lead one to ask, you mean a whole classroom of students stood silently by while a live frog was boiled to death and said nothing? Of course they did, because an authority figure behaved as if it was perfectly normal to do this, or because they were afraid they would be punished if they spoke out, or they would not be heard. Same with many of the soldiers.

I agree with what Hackworth said on Scarborough country last night, that it's a cop out to scapegoat the indiv. soldiers. This is disgusting to me that the military would allow a witch hunt like this, it's obscene. The whole military is responsible, and the highest officers need to take the blame for putting these soldiers in a no-win, no way out situation. They are really screwing up by passing the buck and refusing to place the blame squarely on themselves. Ultimately, blame lies at the feet of George W. Bush, then Cheney, then Rumsfeld and Powell. And the thought that these men have the nerve to get on tv and say THEY are "disgusted" instead of fully culpable for this is shameful beyond belief.

Is that the same guy who was a congressman who had one of his young interns die by allegedly slipping and accidentally banging her head on the desk?

Not that I don't agree with you on some points, its just that you might want to consider where you are getting your information. Hackworth might be okay, but that other dude is, welll............:scared:

Perhaps some had to be coerced into behaving barbarically, while others did not.

But ultimately, any participant in these crimes did not have the inner morality to make the choice to do the right thing, which was to defy orders to torture prisoners. They felt saving their own skins was a higher order than observing the Geneva code, or behaving like a civilized human being according to the rule of decency, civiization and common ethics.

I don't buy it that "anyone" would behave exactly as these gleeful torturers did. I believe that moral individuals would have refused -- even if it cost them their own lives.

I do agree that there is a higher responsibility that goes all the way to the to to His Chimperial Majesty. What were these savages doing but in their own way acting out George W's fantasy of subjugation and power? The laughing "fratboy" tone of the crimes is not a coincidence: the torturers too did not heed the immorality of their actions, were thoughtless of the consequences of their actions in the broader context, and they were simply assuming they would not be caught.

There have been extra-judicial handling of POWs since the war began. The US has been sending POWs not only to Guantanamo, but to countries where torture is permitted. An administration official quoted in early 2002 told a reporter, "Let's just say that the people we are working with can be pretty persuasive." Torture was condoned deeply within the administration all along. They're just sorry that they got caught. They're just sorry that they might well be held accountable for the consequences of these war crimes.

should ALSO be punished. Maybe MORE severely.

I saw Jane Harman on Larry King last night and noted that she wants to follow this as high up as it goes. That would be nice. This could NOT have been done without somebody's approval, either tacit or otherwise. It all has to be routed out.

My favorite part of all this is how a handful here is facing court martial, and another handful there has been given a "reprimand." Hope their little hands didn't hurt too badly when they were swatted like that...

but it doesn't make them any less guilty - if anything the more severely they are scapegoated the more likely other grunts will be to question orders before obeying them. It would be better if the brass took the blame and were punished, but at the moment that is a bit of a fantasy...

OMG... they really are nuts!! How could having your husband sexually abuse a war prisoner protect our national security? Quite the opposite, Mrs. Frederick.

"He was told do to those things"... do you actually BELIEVE THAT? Or have you just learned from the bush administration that Americans would suck up any lie?

On edit... after reading the MSNBC report, if this was indeed ORDERED, then it is a far worse thing. It is plausible.

where are the accountability people?

probably looking for someone else to blame.


failure.

I do agree that the superiors should be severely dealt with as well, but these men and women were having fun even if they were ordered to do it.

Regardless of the "order", there are morally acceptable actions a soldier takes in war. A soldier must say no to clearly immoral orders that violate the Geneva Conventions. The German soldiers who committed atrocities via order were all still found guilty. While much less of an atrocity, the US soldiers are guilty of violating the Conventions and should be punished accordingly - orders or not.

Nurenberg Trials decided it is A CRIME to follow an order that is illegal and immoral. Again in the trials of the East German guards at the Berlin Wall a few years ago, the same thing: "Following orders" is not an excuse. They were found guilty.

And start from the top down.

they are guilty of war crimes.

I just don't even know what to say about that statement; I am speechless.

small potatos is not gonna do it, IT is HUGE.

Gonna take the CEO HIMSELF to step forward LIKE A FUCKIN MAN and APOLOGIZE to the Iraqis and the WORLD, then RESIGN en mass. As a means of sincerity, his Pinky gatta go too.

Scapegoat

This picture of Lieutenant William Laws Calley has a caption that reads, "Scapegoat: a person, group, or thing that bears the blame for the mistakes or crimes of others." In 1971 Calley was found guilty of the premeditated murder of at least twenty-two Vietnamese civilians in connection with the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. His conviction was later overturned.



"Was Your Family all Together for Thanksgiving?"

This drawing by Tom Francis Darcy originally appeared in the November 28, 1969 edition of Newsday. This depiction of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam accompanied an editorial criticizing American military action.

http://www.picturehistory.com/find/p/13047/mcms.html

if i recall correctly SOME soldiers DID refuse to follow the orders to massacre innocent people there. Wastn't there a helicopter pilot who landed in between the soldiers and the people in an attempt to protect them?

the nazis used the "following orders" excuse

Swift and harsh

There has been much blame-slinging already in regard to the photographs of alleged abuse of prisoners in Iraq. I don’t doubt that the abuses occurred, but I feel that it’s far too early to be casting final blame. If the photographs are in fact true, the U.S. soldiers in them are definitely part of the problem. They can’t try to blame their superiors or military intelligence or anyone else without accepting their own responsibility.

The chief of the Army Reserve is investigating to determine if reservists are receiving proper training. Anti-abuse training might be something to have, but lacking such training is certainly not an excuse for the abuse to occur.

Attaching blame seems rather clear cut. Did it happen? Who did it? Who knew about it? Who did something about it? And who did nothing? Those are questions that can be answered without trying to cast blame. But the answers themselves? That’s another matter. The answers will pinpoint the appropriate degrees of blame. Punishment must be swift and harsh. Nothing must be swept under the rug.

Lt. Col. Harry R. Austin (Ret.)
Camp Monteith Kosovo

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21995

"If the photographs are in fact true"... I do not believe anyone has claimed these photos are not real.

Sounded like a reasonable letter to me.

This whole reason we must not jump to conclusions, but also not accept hedging of the issues. The policy and program must be investigated, aired out and prosecution should happen for people with real intent or dereliction of duty.

There is no way this was originated by some loose cannon LT Col., this planned from much higher and possibly or probably outside the military. It's nice to know others are speaking out for we all must do this together.

Thank you lebkuchen

Actually, Mrs. Frederick, a "scapegoat" in its orginal meaning, is an honorable, yet tragic figure. The scapegoat was blameless, but suffered for the sins of the entire community.

YOUR HUSBAND IS NOT BLAMELESS!!!!!!

He's a boot-licking, sick pervert! I hope he gets punished, and punished severely. I agree that his actions are only a mirror of what Bush is doing on an international level, however, he is still responsible for those actions.

The next time you lay in his arms, I hope you think about what he's done, and what he is capable of doing.

...if he testifies against whoever gave him the orders.

We need to expose (and LOCK UP) whoever instigated all this.

they are warped and over the top in their perversions and the public and prospective employers should be warned not to trust them

DO NOT have to follow a blatant order that would be considered against the law. Basic human decency should have told those soldiers that what they were doing was wrong.

While the bulk of the responsibility should fall on the shoulders of the leadership, they still bear some responsiblity as well. They should have known better, orders or not.

"While the bulk of the responsibility should fall on the shoulders of the leadership"

There's plenty of blame to pass about here but it must be remembered that those smiling fuckers seemed to enjoy what they were doing.Blame should be apportioned as deserved. I believe that the soldiers involved have run up an karmic debt they will be unable to settle.

On top of it, I think we are going to lose this war. Were those soldiers already like this when they went there or did the permissivness and failure of leadership contribute to an already abusive situation?

At the same time - they are still responsible morally.

I do believe however that the leadership does bear responsibility.
It happened under someone's command, on someone's watch. The buck is going to stop somehwere. It has to.

USraeli interests in the Middle East and stealing the wealth of Iraq, at the expense of the US treasury, for the benefit of the backers and business cronies of the Bush Cabal. How can you call it a war? They were unarmed, half starved and 50% were children under 15.

It was carnage and destruction to display American Power to the rest of the world. All nations were supposed to cower and accept American Peace, but, having seen the latest brochure pics, we'll pass. US must get out and do whatever possible to clean up that filthy DU. That country is contaminated forever by wanton destruction of NeoCons.

I have a fantasy of seeing Cheny, Bush, Rice, Rumsfeld standing in the dock at a Nuremburg trial for crimes against humanity.

From what I gather, there are 2 reports written by 2 star generals that the leaders didn't bother to concern themselves with.

Of course the smiling assholes should be dealt with severely but if we had good leadership, this wouldn't have happened in the first place. I think that leadership includes the pentagon/white house as well. They should have been on top of this and once again, they have failed.

Those soldiers disgust me beyond belief. If I was a soldier in Fallujah, I would pissed. I would be thinking, here I am getting my ass shot daily while those idiots are having a good time humiliating the hell out of people. There should be punishment everywhere, including the leaders.

are well in the frame. It is more difficult to make a case against the likes of Rummy, who is responsible, but can he be proven culpable.
Not while there is a paper shredder in working order methinks!

thing but you can see by the pictures that they ENJOYED it, so 'the following orders' excuse just doesn't cut it. :mad:

In a system like the military where chain of command and following orders is vitally important, the commanding officers need to shoulder blame for these crimes as well. The military is not a democracy. Soldiers are not truly "free" to make decisions because of the immense pressure of the system they are in to be a part of a unit and follow commands from above.

will she blame his superiors? Will it be because he wasn't trained not to hit his wife? Sorry honey, your husband DID do those things. If he were a real human being, he would have refused orders. No sympathy here.

They took pictures!!! They were smiling!!!They may have been following orders but they did the illegal acts and ENJOYED it!Just because their higher-ups were sick bastards doesn't negate the fact that the perpetraters were sick bastards too. Face the fact lady...your husband has a PROBLEM!:eyes:

or we'd be no better than any other totolitarian state.

"when he did them he thought that he was doing them in the sense of national security,"

I am sure this goes way up, but these people face criminal prosecution all the same.
Next, we need to go up the chain of command .

These soldiers are the fall guys, even though they do bear responsibility. The really ironic thing is that abuse and mistreatment like this won't do anything towards
aiding national security. If anything we are far less secure now that the news and the photos have leaked out.

How far up does this corruption go?

Read these
http://willthomas.net/Articles/Convergence/C20%20Power%20Shift%20In%20Iraq.htm

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/10/indonesia/index.html

Just 20 + years ago we were backing Park Chung Hee, D.W Botha, the Shaw, Samosa, Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, and death squads all over Central America. These were our bastards. Who was it that helped Sadam rise to power in the first place?
Also who armed the Taliban?

I suppose we have been acting like imperialists ever since the end of the American Indian genocide and the occupation of the Phillippines at the end of the Spanish American War. Just the gunboat diplomacy backing up the interests of the United Fruit Co. alone is questionable and what about taking the isthmus from Columbia in order for Theodore to have his canal in 1900.

Also, look at the American experience in China from the late 19th Century.

I am not an idealist. American history has elements that are not very easy to defend.

I think in this case our hypocracy only stretches so far - since we are in this un winnable war that seems to offer only bad choices. I think we show our true intentions when American brutality happens on such a wide basis.
This is the face of American civilization we show to the people of Iraq.
Its just now coming out in the open.

If there is a rule of law reagarding the treatment of prisoners, it needs to be followed. I think I still need to allow myself to be outraged at it. But you are right.
We ARE no better, but in some cases we are worse. I like to think there are American ideals that transcend the worst of our actions.

Kind of reminds me of the Phil Och's song " Cops of the World "

What the hell was all that about? Dropping all that filth on a European city? People here are at the end of their rope. Everyone is depressed and upset. That attack on Fallujah and all those murdered kids is more than people can take. All TVs have the sound turned off to blot out the propaganda shills. Fortunately they put letters from real people on the text at the bottom, if they didn't they wouldn't have any viewers at all. Piles of newspapers lie unsold in the shops. The brutal pictures and sick sex crimes were no surprise because we knew what "our boyz" were doing in Basra. News from there was very scarce which always indicates atrocities.

This really has to stop. We can't take any more of these wackos Bliar and Dubya. Most people here, apart from the Muslims, are not religious and when those eegits talk about God it is ultra scary. They are the terrorists and they have to go NOW. Also, we are broke and 65,000 Eastern Europeans arrived last weekend.

You are in Europe? Yes? Maybe England?
If so, what is your take on Blair's chances? Do you have a strong enough read to sense if he is in serious trouble. I think its sad, but I feel like Blair is serving no good purpose. Have you read the most recent John Le Carre novel?

I wonder if the superiors ALSO ordered them to pose happily with the spoils of their humiliation? Did the superiors ask them to pose like a kid that won a fishing derby? I agree that these stories smack of psych ops gone wild, but you have to ask yourself why the glee? Why the photos, and now I've heard there are videos out there, too. It doesn't wash to make it sound like they were just following orders. I would be placed in the brig, if I were there, because I would have simply refused, and would have screamed my head off to anyone that listened about the abuse. No.. the people doing it enjoyed it too much to claim they were only following orders.

I would like to see how far up this practice goes.. this was supposedly interrogation (though I really don't understand what intelligence would be gleaned from street militia in this case). I bet it's CIA... as been mentioned before.

Everyone involved is guilty equally.

"Scapegoat" infers no culpability. there can be no question these soldiers are guilty of crimes. Their guilt is being used to cover up the higher degree of guilt the mercenaries (aka. "civilian contractors") hold.

these types of humiliation techniques are right out of the Army Intelligence's hand book. Strip the prisoners, blind fold them and put a female in the room to humiliate them. When this lady says they were following orders she's probably right, but that doesn't make any of this OK. The chain of command here seems to have be usurped by AI. Before putting all the blame on these lower level enlisted soldiers remember this has been going on for months, there's no way they could have hid this for that long. I think Army Intel is the real culprit behind this. BTW...I'm not trying to excuse these soldiers for doing this, they should have known better and should/will be held accountable. But don't let them become a scape goat, there may be more to this than we know. This kind of interrogation may have become standard procedure right after 9/11, which means that it could have been taking place right here at home also.

...is that these 'government-issue' photos are intended to provide a huge distraction from actual & highly-secretive interrogation practices (used alot in a neighboring country on Palestinian detainees) AND a source of future deniablity, when the participants ultimately testify how these events were staged - not real - mock-up tortures.

AND 'SO', no significant or widespread illegal orders had ever been given (guffaw). 'SO', You can go back to your regularly scheduled activities. The rumors are malicious nonsense.

Hollywood - the media - PORNO? Give me a break! This photo display was 'produced' and the script must surely be calling for a graceful exit for our ranking desktop heroes - Stage Right.

High-end Fixer damage control?

There were also deaths and not reporting or standing by while Iraqi detainees were murdered is second degree murder, at best.

is the look on our soldiers faces in those pictures. They looked like they were having a good time doing what they were doing. They may have been following orders, but if they didn't agree with those orders, or were uncomfortable with them in any way you would think their expressions would show it.

Am I wrong?

that the US will never live down. The guy with the wires is not the image that people remember, it is grinning Ms England with her thumbs up and'or her little finger gun.

ENEMY COMBATANTS -- (Senate - May 03, 2004)


GPO's PDF
---
Mr. BINGAMAN. Mr. President, there are a couple of news events in the last 24 hours or 48 hours that I thought deserve some comment.

Let me first talk a moment about the atrocities and abuse of enemy combatants--prisoners--in Iraq which has been a major concern. Many of my colleagues have commented upon the horrific images that have come out on television and in the papers. I have not seen as yet many comments about the Pentagon's response. That is what I wanted to comment on briefly.

Officials within the Department of Defense have known at least since January that prisoners held as enemy combatants in Iraq have been subject to maltreatment, and to physical and sexual abuse. We know this because in January the Department of Defense relieved the camp commander of her duties and ordered an investigation. The investigation was completed in February. The 54-page report that was issued, as I understand it, contains horrifying details about these abuses.

Yesterday, on the CBS news program ``Face the Nation,'' Bob Schieffer, the host of that program, interviewed General Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Bob Schieffer asked about this report. He said, ``There is a 53-page report that Sy Hersh of the New Yorker has obtained which says that the situation was even worse. How could this have happened? What is going to occur?

The part that I thought was most disturbing was the response by General Myers to the question: ``Why would you not have seen the report?'' The investigation was carried out in December. The report was completed in

February. ``Why would you not have seen report?'' And the response was: ``It is working its way up, up the chain. I will see this report. I am sure it just hasn't come to me yet.''

This is an unacceptable response. If this is a concern of our Department of Defense, if this is a concern of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, how can he state in May that he has not seen the report or demanded to see the report, and that it is, as he understands it, ``working its way up'' and will eventually come to him?

I don't think that is the level of concern we ought to be demonstrating in our Department of Defense for this kind of circumstance. It is not the level of concern the American people would expect of their military commanders for this type of conduct.

I would think if the general believed swift action was required he might have directed those in the command--in his command and, of course, that is everyone in the military--to get that report to him immediately upon completion, and to give him concrete action items they were intending to take to deal with the situation.

Leadership and responsibility flow from the top in our military. We all know that. For the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to handle this matter in this way and indicate that, on May first, he has not seen the report but he assumes it is working its way up through the chain of command, demonstrates to all members of the military that humane treatment of prisoners is not a priority for our military in Iraq.

That is unacceptable. That is unacceptable to this Senator. It is unacceptable, I believe, to the American public. I hope we can get a different reaction from the Pentagon and a more acceptable reaction from the Pentagon to this horrific state of affairs that has come to our attention.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r108:10:./temp/~r108FFnA4E::

But they should offer deals to the soldiers in the photos, to identify the ones who gave them the orders. Then offer deals to them, to get the next ones up the chain. No deals to the end of the chain, though. Let us see where it ends.

P.S. Deals doesn't mean immunity - just reduced jail time. But of course for that to work, they have to threaten serious jail time all the way up the chain.

It's a class thing really. A British Officer called Tim Collins was accused of brutality by an American (support worker or soldier). Collins had no trouble discrediting the whistle blower and he got a medal from the Queen. It is Collins regiment that is being investigated now and I think that he admitted shooting at a man's feet, while doing a house search, which I consider brutal. He was cleared of hitting the old man with a gun butt, but I reckon he did it for sure. He got out of the service clutching his medal.

music for this while the officers that instructed them and supervised them will get off scott free. This goes up the chain of command a lot higher than the local commander.

And the CACI people will sleep snug in their beds at night and their faces won't show up on the evening news. It makes sense re the post above about putting a female in the room with them. I wish someone could find that text and link to it, as far as it being standard army practice. England is a patsy for this, who will probably end up in jail regardless of the fact that she's to be a mom.

But that is not the way that society works. When you make a choice to torture or muder someone, you are responsible for that decision.

Hopefully these men and women will not try to cover up for the people above them that are also responsible for this abuse.

like the rescuers of Je$$ica Lynch. Four killed within a month while back home in the US. Smelly or what?

Very good discussion - guests S Hersch, law professor, DC based reporter for ME paper, and reporter on phone for a while

Hersh main points....

...photos in New Yorker piece were entered into court martial trial - these are real, NOT fake photos

...there was one section of the prison with women prisoners and one with young boys - the info and photos of stuff done to (some of the) boys is horrific

...this whole thing goes at least to Rumsfeld with his 'Manhunter' project

...pentagon is furious with Rumsfeld, with the Iraq war - therefore he could get lots of info (much of this was said semi-indirectly)

...there have been internal investigations going back to late summer and early fall

...T....(name of general who did report Hersh talks about in his article) - whatever is said publicly, this guy is not popular now in the 'club'

...at least 40+ soldiers were involved

There was a surprising amount of discussion about the private contractors and the difficulty of charging them.

Hersh and others said that there were DOD investigations going on at least as far back as November; there is NO WAY the woman general could not have known what was going on.

One caller, whose relative is in military intelligence, said that Hersh's article, the program, the guests, etc, were stirring up trouble and making life much more dangerous for the Americans in Iraq.

Hersh and others pointed out stongly that it was the actions not the reporting that is causing the trouble.

Rehm made a very weird comment at one point - she said but 9-11 happened and all those people died horribly. But her tone of voice was odd - sort of like 'well, this is what a lot of people will say to excuse any US wrong doing.'

The guy from the ME said people there have known of major problems with US prisoners in Iraq since almost immediately after the 'fall of Baghdad.' He said the whole torture mess has been a major disaster for the US and will have extremely long-lasting negative results in ME.

Hersh implied and partially stated that what has come out is just a very minor part of a much, much larger story.

Anyone have link to transcript? If it's available on audio, listen. Tone of voice, pauses, etc, at times implied much more than was actually said.

That's what the Nazi's said.

...but this is why I have very little respect left for it.

From the Yahoo! article:

Houston lawyer Guy Womack, who is representing reservist Charles Graner in the abuse case, said his client should not be court-martialed and that pictures taken of him abusing Iraqi prisoners were staged.

What about all the other pictures the public hasn't seen, which purportedly show much worse atrocities than the ones in the photos we have seen? Were those "staged psychological intimidation", too? I suppose the dead Iraqi prisoner in a black plastic bag on ice is just the work of a gifted Hollywood prop maker. It's a lawyer's duty to zealously advocate for their client, but not to the point where the lawyer lies. Torture, death and humiliation of prisoners are explicity prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, no? So why would they take pictures of "staged" war crimes violations?

but is anybody else not surprised in the least that the stuff pictured in these pictures goes on? Doesn't anybody else consider it pretty much a given that this stuff happens in every war all the time? What do people think is going on at Guantanamo Bay?

As far as the Geneva Conventions, I'm no expert, but it strikes me that the whole Guantanamo Bay thing is a massive violation of the Geneva Conventions, and that's been justified every which way. Since the current Bushista list of exceptions to basic human rights is quite lengthy and growing longer by the day, is it any wonder that Joe and Josephine Enlistee might think that they are not required to respect the human rights of their prisoners?

You either believe that all humans have basic rights or you don't. You either follow the Geneva Conventions because it is the right thing to do or you don't. When you start saying that this group here and that group over there can be denied basic rights; when you think that you can follow the Geneva Conventions in this circumstance, but explain that they don't apply to you in that circumstance, you have essentially trashed the whole thing. Where we are now is at the bottom of the slippery slope we stepped onto when it became OK to afford some people rights but not others, and when it became OK to selectively follow the Geneva Conventions.

And what exactly do photos of naked Iraqis simulating fellatio contribute to national security? That's a bit subtle for me.