Rall Tillman cartoon pulled

Rall's 'Tillman' Cartoon Pulled by MSNBC.com

A cartoon questioning late footballer-turned-soldier Pat Tillman's credentials as a "hero" was pulled from MSNBC.com this afternoon. The drawing also brought Ted Rall 110 e-mails in less than 15 minutes.

The volume of mail had much to do with the cartoon being mentioned on the Drudge Report site, seen by many conservatives. Drudge linked to MSNBC.com until the cartoon was yanked. Then Drudge linked to the cartoon at Universal Press Syndicate's site (http://www.ucomics.com).

In a statement posted on its site, MSNBC.com said Rall's cartoons, like those by other creators, are "published daily on the site via an automated syndication feed. Such feeds are rarely reviewed. However, MSNBC.com Editor in Chief Dean Wright concluded Monday's Rall item did not meet MSNBC.com standards of fairness and taste."

Rall said in the cartoon that Tillman -- who gave up a $3.6-million National Football League contract to join the military and then died last month -- "falsely believed Bush's wars against Iraq and Afghanistan had something to do with 9/11. Actually, he was a cog in a low-rent occupation Army that shot more innocent civilians than terrorists to prop up puppet rulers and exploit gas and oil resources. So when Tillman got killed by the Afghan resistance, one word naturally came to mind: 'Uh -- idiot?' . 'Sap?' . 'Hero!' ."

Full Story at Yahoo! News

I know I'll get flamed for saying it, because I've heard the same kind of thing around here, but "hero" or not, he shouldn't have a cartoon about him. He "put-up" where a lot of the freepers won't even "shut up" so he's got my respect.

they flame me.

Tillman (and the rest of our fallen) rest in peace.

Rall just feeds more red meet to the Republican Corporate media machine. Sadly, if he had used "soldier #706" instead of Tillman, the impact of the point would have been just as effective and few here would have found fault with it.

when Nike bring out a new line of sports shoes, do they get some public joe to endorse the shoes in their advertising campaign ?

No, they pay Tiger Woods several million dollars to do it.

He gets stick from everybody, even here surprisingly, but he is out there in the faces of the right-wing.

Plenty of guts.

OK.. so if Rall did a cartoon screwing your dead mother that would be OK? (not your mom) of course...

With the exception of Rall having Tillman asking if he would get to "kill Arabs", everything else in that comic is dead-on. We did wrongly attack two countries to get at al Qaeda, when the hijackers are alleged to have come mostly from Saudi Arabia and have backers in Pakistan's ISI.

If the subject of the cartoon had been a normal soldier, and not Tillman, I'm pretty sure almost everyone here would agree with almost everything Rall says in that comic.

and you're dead wrong about the majority of folks agreeing with Rall... I think the majority of DU'ers agree with going after the Taliban at the onset of the Afghan war. Of course Bush fucked it up...

There ain't no doubt in my mind that Osama was responsible for 9/11 and there ain't no doubt that the Taliban was harboring the murderer.

Tillman just wanted to kill the fuckers responsible for killing 3000 innocent people. That's why Rall's cartoon is so fucked up!

with the Defense Dept, the FBI, the CIA or some other intelligence agency that has PROVEN without a doubt that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 911..

Let's see your Proof.

Yes, even though we know they needed an event like 9/11...even though we know they lie about anything and everything...even though there are still hundreds of unanswered questions about the events of that day - people still accept that 9/11 was carried out exactly as the lying, murderous, treasonous b*sh administration say it happened.

Unbelievable.

Hell, people can just watch your flash and come away knowing there's far more to the story than what we've been told by the lying government...yet, still, some people refuse to even entertain the possibility of maybe not blindly believing the explanation given by a bunch of lying crooks.

Have I mentioned yet that they're liars?

Do you believe Gore is a pathological liar?

Do you believe all the votes were counted in 2000?

Do you believe that the tax cuts helped the middle class?

Do you believe that L'il George didn't really know Ken Lay?

Or is this the only one?

As a military brat, I respect our service people far more than most Americans, but there comes a time when we have to call jingoism what it is. There also comes a point where the Murkan equivalent of the "good German" argument just doesn't fly.

He gets things right.

I see nothing admirable about being the willing acomplice of a gross piece of militaristic adventurism.

There is a 'duty', that applies to everybody, of finding out exactly what our leaders have in mind when they pack people off to kill people from other countries.

It is a standard that is applied historically to the German people who fought so hard for Hitler by fighting to protect their country from foreign invaders, and it now applies to the citizens of the u.s. and britain.

Why would it ever cross someone's mind to draw such a heinous cartoon?

And thank God for him.

"Hard-Hitting Progressives" are never flat out wrong and assholes. I never said Bush wasn't an asshole. That's a given.

I went & killed people in Nam because I wanted to be a good 'merican. To bad for me that I got screwed just like many other sheeple of the past & the present. Does this make me or Tillman bad? No....... However, this guy Rail has stuck out his neck, stirred the pot & made people think............. If you'd care to to check it, that is the role of the artist in society... Possibly Mr. Rail is a more thoughtful man than most sheeple. Perhaps this is why "the thought would have crossed his mind"...... I have heard many people say "Tillman? What an idiot!" ..... They say it quietly though 'cause they know there will always be some flag-drapped nut ready to shout them down......... Think it over, it'l creep up on ya.

I happen to like his work, both cartoon and editorial. I think you might not be completely familiar with the works of Rall, Mr. Boogerbrain.

...to pick "boogerbrain" as a boardname?

Rall is exactly the medicine that the deluded need.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

even if you THINK he is an asshole he has FREEDOM of SPEECH, as guaranteed by OUR CONSTITUTION..

I don't agree with him on this point either (well, I do in a way) but he still has the RIGHT.

When is someone going to YANK Bush from the White House because so many of US complain?

You want to live in a country where DRUDGE and a bunch of Nazi RIGHT WINGERS with email decide WHAT you can SEE?

get a grip.

and just because the guy was a 3.6 million dollar piece of horseflesh bought and sold in the sports marketplace doesn't mean he's a fucking hero either.

Is Rall only available through Drudge? No. Actually, I saw it here when the link was posted. I don't read Drudge unless someone links to it here, but that was classless and low taste. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from repurcussions.

...linked to this board very often, have you?

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is that some sort of character statement?

no one here has ever pissed me off like you just did.

apologise, you know better.

I was DRAFTED in 1971 and SERVED MY COUNTRY so don't tell me about making CHOICES.

I'm fighting for my country right now with my flash work..

I've seen your work, I remember you from the Wisenheimer.

Wisenheimer...what the fuck are you talking about... Put away the beer and calm down.... And as far as pissing you off, get in the back of the fucking line...it's long.

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give me one more... I know you got it in you...

wisenheimer also weisenheimer

NOUN: Informal. One who is obnoxiously self-assertive and arrogant: malapert, witling. Informal : know-it-all, saucebox, smart aleck, smarty, smarty-pants. Slang : wiseacre, wisecracker, wise guy. See GOOD.

I agree with that....

Me too. Do we know each other? And who is trumad?

BTW, I love your Flash vids. They're easily worth 3.6 mil, and they'd save Kerry a ton o' dough!

:puke:

But no sex in coffins.

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Seems like a consumer - business issue. Last I checked the 1st amendment had to do with the government. But I am sure you knew that already.

Unless of course you are referring to Rall's paranoid ranting that the White House got him fired from the NYT.

He is one out of 800 plus troops who fell- just because he played football does not make him special, not to me.

I agree w/ what another poster said- if the comic had been about some unnamed soldier who was fooled by the media, then it would be less offensive to some people.

I think the comic is trying to illustrate a national attitude. I dont think it's funny when any American dies over there...

...but perhaps the fact that the media & right-wingers are hyping up Tillman should be subject to lampoon.

Because he gives the US soldier a face. People were always anonymous names, but now that people can really put a face with a name it has inspired many Americans to further support our troops. I think Pat Tillman represents everything great about America. You and I are able to discuss issues because of people like Pat Tillman.

Or do you have a more "liberal" definition of "supporting" the troops?

Tillman wass probably a good guy- I dont know anything about him. I know a couple of dudes overseas, and I can that they are heros, but I know them.

Whether or not his death inspires others to support the war, I mean REALLY support the war, the way Tillman did, reamains to be seen.

I think the Ted Rall cartoon is a bit abrasive, but it does Lampoon the idea that anyone who dies in a war is automatically a hero- which is subject to debate...

I would have dissed Rall about Afghanistan just as much if it was Joe Sixpack instead of Tillman.

Just my opinion...

I'm not saying that Rall and the Tillman haters don't have the right to say how they feel. But I can't help but think what they are saying sounds JUST like when the Rightys say that AIDS victims deserved what they got or the Woman who was Raped and Beaten got what she deserved because of the style of clothes she wore.
Its Ugly and Disrespectful talk and its the same category of the term Ugly Americans. Its not just for the Right Wingers folks!
So go ahead and say mean and nasty things about a Patriotic man who wanted to serve his country even though he did not have to. ( Just like Kerry by the by )Its only helping the ones you SAY you want to defeat in the court of public opinion.

just like Ari Fleischer said, "Better watch what you say.."

CENSORSHIP. Period.

you do what they say, they win.

With all due respect to you Symbolman ( And I do have lots for you without a doubt )Rall and the people who agree with him have the right to say anything they want. And its my right to say that I disagree with them. I feel that the talk that Tillman was an idiot or that he got what he deserved is counter productive. And VERY SIMILAR to the things the Right wing says about Libs. How is this Helping? Who is this helping?

who think the carpet of bombs is better than the carpet of gold. Afghanistan was on the menu LONG before 9-11-01, so if you arent too busy, grab a little recent history on the subject and refresh yourself with a factual basis.

Sideshow..

They DO win when we En Mass Curb our tongues to suit them..

all the PC crap was invented by the right wing to get us to trip over our own tongues, using our good intentions against us.. tricky..

hey, no one is telling you to Agree with me..

but I honestly do think that this guy is not WORTH 3.6 million Bucks more as some kind of hero than anyother guy who dies over there.. as a matter of fact here's a great article from SPORTS ILLUSTRATED that amazed me..

very touching and to the point:

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:qgPur0okNX4J:www.cnnsi.com/pr/subs/siexclusive/rick_reilly/2004/04/26/reilly0503/+%22rick+reilly%22+tillman&hl=en


pass it around,

best,

sym

Both sides of the spectrum of political thought are responsible for the freedom hating beast of Political Correctness. Yes Ralls cartoon did piss me off but in no way did the the thought " they should take this off" come to mind.
Its very unfortunate and sad that it took a sports star to put a public face for those who have fallen and gone when before they were hidden from view from the public and ingored by the press. There are many like Tillman who are now gone for Bush's vanity war that deserve the same respect. BUT the mean and uncaring things that have been said about Tillman have been uncalled for and over the line and thats what gets my goat because it reminds me so much of things that Right wingers say about people..Like the time that Brit Hume told the family's of the fallen to just " Get over it ".
With that said it is someones right to not to like Tillman and call him names post Morten as it is my right to say how much I think thats wrong and uncalled for and wont help the mass public to see our side of things thereby hopefully putting the stop to the needless deaths of Americans like Tillman.
Thanks for your Respect Symbolman, You do great work and its much appreciated. Keep up the great work buddy!

Next you say if we dis Tillman, Osama wins.

Free speech no matter how much we disagree is a conerstone of what makes America great.But if we disagree with what they have said are we to just shut up? Is that free speech?

I've posted this at the Take Back the Media site.. for anyone that hasn't seen it, for whatever reason.

You'll find 95 percent here on DU agree that Rall can say anything he damn well pleases! The Freedom of Speech dodge is the only thing the Rall apologists can throw at folks who disagree with Rall....

Enough with that Dodge cause that's all it is!

not me.

now for your witty reparte "you did TOO."

bye now.

You trying to shut me up.... Post that on your fucking page.

If it does ever make it to TV the time line needs to be adjusted to reflect the AP photos taken as Bush prep'ed before 9:30 statement - it only allows one to say that he read from 10? (whatever is the tape duration) to 20 minutes.

papau.. there's also the little matter of the WRONG tower being attacked in the beginning of the flash..

thanks,

I respect your opinion and views on the DU immensely.

I have a number of Rall cartoons out in my garage blown up to about 3' x 4' and they rock madly. He NAILS IT just about every time. He cant be held responsible if there are a bunch of pro-war corporatists running around DU acting indignant and self righteous when they should probably be out somewhere doing the killing themselves, because they clearly fit the pattern described in this cartoon.

Because I agree. And if I had said it, I'd have a posse after me :)

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.

"Pat isn't with God," he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead."

-------------------------------

Now read the ENTIRE thing, and tell me you're unimpressed.

This is very compelling from the report of the funeral and friend's and family testimonies:

"Pat didn't want to be the focal point, but he liked being out front,'' McGinnis said, "if that makes any sense.''

Tillman's roommate in the pros, Zack Walz, took a newspaper clipping to the podium and read about how he and some Cardinals teammates had made up faux dog tags for themselves, declaring their unit a band of warriors. "Soldiers, battlers, lay it on the line,'' Walz said, sniffling as he scanned the clip. "What the hell did we know? Listen to the words. Listen to the metaphors. ... How hollow they ring.''

>snip<


"It has been said over and over that he wouldn't want to be revered while we ignore the other soldiers lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would he want his former friends in football belittled, their values bashed as a way to measure his sacrifice? That's too easy.

Challenge yourself.

By the time the ceremony ended, after his brother and brother-in-law sipped the Guinness that Garwood poured in Tillman's honor, the funny, thinking, wild, crazy man had come to life. The family's loss, the loss of every soldier's family, seemed more real.

Tillman wasn't an icon anymore. He was a man you wanted to know, to spend time with, to lift a Guinness alongside. But that had become impossible, the price of war, because his brother was right. Pat is dead. He's f -- ing dead."

--------------------------------------

Regarding Rall's cartoon, I'm reminded of the saying:
Make people think that they are thinking and they will love you;
Actually make them think and they will hate you.
--------------------------------------

Tillman's death was waved like a flag by the White House to cover the impact of the leaked photos of all those anonymous coffins that make us think 'numbers.' Describing Tillman as a hero is a method of pulling in more fodder for the ranks currently being used to conquer the planet's biggest fuel dump by the world's biggest arsenal.

So there is a good reason to debunk the 'hero' status of the face used to sell this death march into the sands. And using a real face instead of a generic face to illustrate the point actually humanizes the issue which is the whole point. Not to insult or demean. That is merely theater in the tiny venue of four symbolic frames. The cartoon doesn't call Tillman an idiot or hero. It makes the point that he is tragically inbetween, just like the rest of us, except dead and now a tool used to get more killed.

Remember when the Israeli ambassador to a Nordic country recently went apeshit in anger at seeing an artistic display about terrorism that had a face of a beautiful Palestinian woman on a tiny sailboat in a sea of blood? The ambassador assumed the artist was paying tribute to a woman who had been a suicide bomber when the poetic text of the piece gave so much more information. It described how her own family had been slaughtered by Israeli troops and she had in turn done the same thing. It was an art piece about tragedy and loss of humanity through distorting pain combined with political lies of power struggles.

Sound familiar?

The ability to actually empathize with a known individual is extremely potent as a tool in making a point. Just look at all the responses to this topic.


And you must consider more than the possibly good intentions in the minds of our troops as they carry out this horror. There are thousands of victims of our troops good intentions to consider too.

Their inability to recognize an invalid chain of command and illegal orders has them, sadly, complicit in an illegal war of aggression that got Nazis hung at Nuremberg in 1947. This is high tragedy, paradoxical, classic abusive government tactics, and has nothing to do with heroics.

Here's an ethical exercise to consider:

Imagine that someone hears voices in their head telling them that there are dangerous people at the bus stop who want to end the world. So he bravely charges and guns them down to save the world. Erroneously. He was told lies by a radio in his brain.

Does motivation create a hero despite the horrific slaughter?
This is the ethical question to consider when deciding 'hero' status.

Tillman didn't just put his life on the line. He put many other people's lives on the line and probably ended some, too, for what he erroneously 'believed in.'

And that negates the 'heroic' status to me. It is high tragedy. And I think that is the incredibly complex ethical dilemma that Rall is harshly pointing at in a few tiny cartoon frames. And that doesn't eliminate my sympathy for Tillman or the bereaved family and friends he leaves behind. I don't mean that he is a villain OR hero.

There is a very human place we all live in between 'hero' and 'villain' despite the propaganda thrown at us to the contrary.

I think Rall means to point out the Big Lie that is used to send bright young people to commit atrocities with a kick in the head because of the huge gap between what people think is happening and what is really happening.

Had he left the guy nameless it would have been perfect...exposes the con job of the Afghanistan war perfectly.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

But of all the cartoonists, he has more room to speak on the war than just about anyone else. Read his book "To Afghanistan and Back". He's at least gotten up from behind his drawing table and actually gone to the mid-East to see what's up on the ground himself--not just once, but something like 5 times.

they went there- can O'Really? or Limbaugh say that?

I don't think Afghanistan is a waste of our time militarily. Sure, we should go after Saudi and Pakistan, but to argue that Afghanistan is a waste of time is IMHO begging for ridicule. LIHOP or no LIHOP.

2nd, lashing out at Tillman is counter-productive - what the hell did he have to do with the policy? Rall missed a perfectly good chance to explain what is so shocking about Tillman's death, that we are programmed to assume that the POOR fight and die for us, while the rich make the policy. What's ironic is that the Repubs are using this as an opportunity to say "See, this guy had everything and sacrificed it all on the altar of freedom". The implication , of course, is that its so rare for people with money and hope to join the army that this guy had to be singled out as a "hero" because he was a very rare exception to the rule.

Go Ted!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

I think he knows almost as well as Tillman how hollow all this hero worship is.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13