Q: Mr. Secretary, a number of times from the podium you've said U.S. troops do not torture individuals. There was a joking colloquy one time here about the iron maiden, remarks -- I mean, does this report undercut your notion that the U.S. doesn't torture, this is -- is this one of those rare exceptions here that torture took place?
SEC. RUMSFELD: I think that -- I'm not a lawyer. My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture.
Just a minute.
Q: (Off mike.) SEC. RUMSFELD: I don't know if the -- it is correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that there's been a conviction for torture. And therefore I'm not going to address the torture word.
There's no question but that it has been my conviction that all of our rules, all of our procedures, all of our training is against abuse of people that are detained. You know that. I know that. I've been over it in detail.
And the fact that it happens -- notwithstanding the fact that it's against everything that they're taught, against everything that we believe, it's also against anything that any individual on their own ought to believe is right. And so there's -- all I can say is what I've said.
http://usembassy-australia.state.gov/hyper/2004/0505/epf307.htm***Q: Mr. Secretary, on gathering of intelligence, you've told us many times that the people you've captured, that are now at Guantanamo and elsewhere, the al Qaeda, the Taliban, are very reluctant to talk. And one would assume since we're a civilized nation we don't use cattle prods and iron maidens and pull out people's fingernails.
Rumsfeld: I appreciate your giving us that credit. (Laughter.)
Q: Watch out.
Q: Yet there are —
Rumsfeld: It's a bit unique, but I'm gratified.
Q: Well, I've thrown you a curve, now we're getting to the fast break.
Rumsfeld: Uh-oh. Okay.
Q: But yet, as you know, there are chemical means of getting people to release information. With the people you captured —
Rumsfeld: Oh, my lord.
Q: Including the top people so far, are you using that, or would you endorse the use of that to find Osama bin Laden and other key people?
Rumsfeld: Look. The United States of America is not using — and I'm not going to repeat the things that I hope didn't carry on the various mikes around. And you should not put your cameras on someone who asks questions like that. (Laughter.)
Q: I'm hurt!
Rumsfeld: The answer is no, we're not. We're treating these people under the Geneva Convention and in a humane way, and we're not doing that. We are very anxious to gather as much intelligence as we can. We've been working hard on it and we intend to continue it. Some people don't say a word for the first year, and after a year, they suddenly decide they'd like to talk a little bit. So it takes patience, and we're patient.
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/text/0401dod.htm***Q: Six months into this, you could argue that the measure of stability that has been brought to Afghanistan is unraveling. Just in recent days, the assassination attempt, evidence of some plot to, quote-unquote, "overthrow" this government — have recent events in any way changed your outlook on what the U.S. needs to do between now and when that date does arrive, when government can handle this, itself? And have you changed your strategy at all? Because obviously, you can't hunt these guys down if there's no central government — or not a stable one that is supported by the people.
Rumsfeld: In Afghanistan.
Q: Right.
Rumsfeld: Well, there are degrees of stability, and they run across that the spectrum. And if you're looking for a Western European stability of their government, why, you're probably right that that is a likelihood in the next 15 minutes that's not — that's rather modest. For that part of the world — (chuckles) — can you get relative stability? Sure. Is it likely that this government — interim government will be succeeded by something other than an interim government? Yes, I think it will be. Will it — does it mean that there'll be the end of highway robbery in that country? No. Will there still be people moving across borders and doing bad things? Sure. But the world's not a perfectly tidy place. And I think your characterization of "unraveling" is misplaced. It reminded me of "quagmire," almost. (Murmurs, soft laughter.)
Rumsfeld: What?
Q: There's a growing list of verboten words.
Q: "Iron maiden."
Q: I guess the question is, if you —
Rumsfeld: Just a minute. Let me — I pause to smile but not to take a breath. (laughter) The — it isn't unraveling at all. Indeed, it's really been kind of impressive that — what's taken place. If you're going to try to hold Afghanistan to a standard of tidiness and stability that you're going to find in the United States, you're not going to find it. Does that mean something's unraveling? No. Indeed, it is that the environment there, compared to six months ago, is so much better than it was that the very thought — I don't know how your mind even found that word to characterize what's taking place; it's such a stretch. (scattered laughter)
(chuckles) I mean, it seems to me that the humanitarian workers are moving around, and people are doing things. Their hospitals are treating patients. Schools are open. People are going to school. Food's being distributed. An army's being trained. I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but goodness gracious, let's not think we're going to — we're pulling a thread on a cable-knit sweater and it's going to unravel before our eyes. It's just not happening.
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/text/0408dod.htm***
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