Moore Film Title Angers Author Bradbury

Moore Film Title Angers Author Bradbury

12 minutes ago

By PAUL CHAVEZ, Associated Press Writer

LOS ANGELES - Ray Bradbury is demanding an apology from filmmaker Michael Moore (news) for lifting the title from his classic science-fiction novel "Fahrenheit 451" without permission and wants the new documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" to be renamed.

"He didn't ask my permission," Bradbury, 83, told The Associated Press on Friday. "That's not his novel, that's not his title, so he shouldn't have done it."

The 1953 novel, widely considered Bradbury's masterpiece, portrays an ugly futuristic society in which firemen burn homes and libraries in order to destroy the books inside and keep people from thinking independently.

"Fahrenheit 451" takes its title from the temperature at which books burn. Moore has called "Fahrenheit 9/11" the "temperature at which freedom burns."

more... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=9&u=/ap/20040619/ap_on_en_mo/bradbury_fahrenheit_911

he should be happy Moore's film is giving his forgotten book a second life.

.

I had an old copy of one of his McSciFi books on my shelf that I just dumped in the trash can.

and yes, was about controlling the masses through denying them access to free thinking. It also was completely fictional.

Moore's movie is about what the American public and the world at large needs to know. It is based on research and documentation of fact. It is nonfiction.

Between Bradbury's book and Moore's movie there is no comparison. What Bradbury is doing is tantamount to FOX going after Franken for the words "fair and balanced".

Try it in court, Bradbury...you will lose.

Its hard to understand why he's upset.

Apparently he doesn't see Johnny Asscraps Avenging Angels of Death as Nazi Stormtroopers the way most of us here do.

Oh well Bradbury-- at one time you were a hell of an author.

He just wanted to be included?

...before this quote became public. Maybe Moore just got tired of hearing about Bradbury's comments and decided to drop calling ol' Ray off his priority list.

it was never very popular even at its peak. and when we hear the words Farenheit 451, we think of the movie, not the book.

1) Farenheit 451 is standard issue reading amongst many professional educators around the world due to how goddamn wonderful it is. No doubt more than one DU'r owes and early skepticism of authority to that tome.

2) Michael Moore made a clever play on words, adapting the title and even the catchphrase with characteristic wit. I liked it...thought it was incredibly effective (I'm a huge MM fan..."Blood in the Face" having his bravest/funniest confrontation IMHO).

3) He apparently didn't ask Ray Bradbury for permission.

4) This made Mr. Bradbury very angry.

5) They've subsequently stopped using the slogan, "The temperature at which freedom burns" in the promotions associated with the film.

6) Ray's still miffed

That's it...that's all that's happening. Ray isn't mad at the politics or philosophy, he's upset about perceived plagiarism.

He's probably a little extra amped that no one even thought to tell him about it earlier. That's gotta sting a bit.

Will this eventually be resolved? Yeah, probably, like any minor dispute it's a misunderstanding...not an example of Ray Bradbury as part of an OMGSOHOTCONSERVATIVECONSPIRACY against MM.

Leave that role to the media outlets who have used this one negligible bruise on the films image in an attempt to discredit the whole thing.

Mr. Bradbury's anger is beng used by the wrong people...I think with Ray being older and potentially grumpier, he may be a little less patient for diplomatic pleasantries. He only cares about his work and its legacy...he's not a political activist.

Should folks be reacting with a blind FUCK YOU whenever anyone engages in an action we don't agree with?!?

For the love of crap, NO.

Aren't we supposed to be better than that here?

Aren't we supposed to have a nuanced opinion that doesn't rely on the insta-hate tactics we mockingly deride as being ignorant and leading to mob driven evil.

You know...SHADES OF GREY...the understanding of which usually separates a progressive from the mob.

If you'll read this thread, or some of the threads a week or two ago on this topic, you'll see what we mean.

Bradbury has made several public statements indicating his far-right, anti-Democratic attitude.

he's a mcp too

It was his book, his idea, his masterpiece - it deserves respect.

Nuff said.

:eyes:

I don't think the issue is really copyright. More likely trademark and consumer confusion as to Bradbury's possible endorsement.

That being said, because of an author/film-maker has significant First Amendment interest in choosing an appropriate title for his or her work, courts have held that literary titles do not violate the Lanham (Tradmark) Act "unless the title has no artistic relevance to the underlying work whatsoever, or, if it has some artistic relevance, unless the title explicitly misleads as to the source or the content of the work."

Here, the title fahrenheit 9/11, while perhaps suggestive, doesn't appear to EXPLICITLY mislead as to source of Origin.

MiraMax not going over this and concluding that the title was o.k. Bradbury may be a republican or else he may be curmudgeon.

He's a genuinely nice man. He believes that Americans need good libraries so they can read and learn things. His stories are the sweet, sentimental, nostalgic side of science fiction.

That said, he's an old guy, he's respected for what he did but he hasn't done anything new or imaginitive in years. So of course, he's going to defend the title of one of his great works. Whether or not it needs or deserves to be defended. After all, he did create the title. (I think he should be grateful to Moore; Bradbury's "firemen," who set fire to books to keep people from reading, are exactly what the Republicans are now.)

Also, please remember that science fiction is, for the most part, a right-wing form of literature. There are notable exceptions, but most of the people in science fiction push right-wing ideas (heroes with super technology who defeat ignorant enemies). Remember that science fiction got its first serious critical reviews (outside the fanboy network) in the pages of William F. Buckley's National Review.

Maybe you've met him, maybe he was nice in person, but he hates Clinton (called him a sh**thead in an interview) and said that he's glad Bush was elected so he could fix the mess Democrats have made of our educational system.

I've seen him in person and I am truly disgusted at that pig. He goes on rants and accuses Clinton of dealing drugs and he hates Hillary with the typical Freeper passion.

Of course, Bush can do no wrong in his eyes. I wonder what that old shithead thinks of Bush's biblethumpin buds who want all those naughty Vonnegut books burned?

I read Ray Bradbury as a kid -- actually I read all the sci-fi in the house almost from the time I could put three syllables together -- and then he spoke at my jr. college and I got his autograph for my boyfriend Ray... Sentimental associations.

He's a really old gent by now. Cut him some slack unless his lawyer gets nasty.

I never really thought about the politics of sci-fi authors back when I was reading it; I was more interested in whether the plot hung together believably and whether there were any girls in the mix. (Podkayne and Telzy, where are you?) The heroes of sci-fi were mostly pretty ruggedly individualistic, but that fits with our national mythology. Heinlein -- now he was a couple of steps to the right of Libertarian.

Go in peace, Mr. Bradbury.

Hekate

SF is the fiction of choice for progressives, not conservatives. Without those dreams of tomorrow, there could be no progression, only stagnation and death from the lack of change.

Most of the SF writers, artists and fans that I know are very much liberal. They have stood behind their ideas and their beliefs that tomorrow can be a great time to be if there is a greater sense of unity and community in the world.

Yes, some are conservative. However, it's very hard to reconcile Harlan Ellison's books with any penchant toward calling him a "conservative" in any way; Asimov, Heinlein and others of their stature are hardly of any regressive mindset, and certainly most of the women writers--Norton, McCaffrey, Bradley, Willis, LeGuin, etc.--could never be called repressive in their writing.

Those who write SF and fantasy, who dare to conjure up tales for us to enjoy, are well aware of what could happen, what should happen, and are only happy to help show us their future societies and the people who inhabit them.

I remember reading Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat," and that didn't seem right-wing... also his "Make Room, Make Room," which was made into the movie "Soilent Green"...

I don't know. I used to read a lot of SF short stories in the '50's and '60's...how wide-spread is this notion that SF is RW? Are there dissertations written on the subject?

It seems to me that SF would be more of a left-wing form of literature.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction#History_of_science_fiction>

Click on the link "History of Science Fiction" for an excellent summary of science fiction, including forerunners, throughout the decades.

...but now I think of him as a grouchy old Fascist twit that has a chafed butt from wearing his Depends to tightly.

Piss off, Ray.

:eyes:

The book is over 50 years old, it's considered a classic, and that's the only reason it worked with Moore's movie title. Isn't there a natural end of life for copyrights?

Talk about petty. This attitude of "intellectual property" crap has gotten way out of hand, dontcha think?

Bradbury ought to be flattered, not annoyed.

Moore shouldn't have any legal problem with the name though as titles are not generally protected.

is about to lose his copyright so it's difficult to keep up. :)

Bradbury is completely off the mark on this.

And Fahrenheit 451 is NOT the same as Fahrenheit 9/11, so get over it, Bradbury.

Also, this is hardly news, as Bradbury's comments have been floating around the net for at least a week, maybe two. But the thread's too long to pull from LBN now.

at the LA Filmex in the 70's. Was excited until he started speaking. I thought what an a-hole. Kinda turned me off to him.

tribute?

I've seen it on DU in the past month or so as well.

Hi zidzi! I've missed seeing you around.

:hi:

...and didn't you take some "liberties" in the naming of one of your "Works"....

Hypocritical loser....

Like Nike registering the slogan 'just do it', and McDonald's registering 'I'm lovin it'. Like they're the first people on earth to have used these phrases? It's so ridiculous.

I read F. 451 and the Martian Chronicles when I was young. I didn't recall either pushing a right wing agenda - the reverse if anything, with the theme of resistance to censorship in Fahrenheit 451. I suppose that could have been meant to be more anti-soviet than anything else, though. I recall M. Chronicles as having a sort of wistful tone with the plight of the Martians being compared to that of the American Indian.

Also, he was quite anti-car in a lot of his work, which is not a position that I would expect from a right winger (I recall the scene of the protagonist crossing the expressway on foot, in F. 451, having to dodge murderous drivers).

But, perhaps I was too young to recognize his work as having right wing messages. Alternatively, he may have changed his view as he aged, growing more conservative - the grouchy old man phenomenon.

As for Moore alluding to the title of his novel - he should be flattered that another important artist is doing so, and should recall that this is the essence of how art, literature and film evolve and develop. His objections do seem petty.

All his positions are left-wing, but he thinks that the right-wing supports them and the left-wing fights against them, when it's the left-wing that supports Bradbury's positions and the right-wing that fights against Bradbury's positions.

Many right-wingers do not understand what "right-wing" means.

If you re-read the book, you'll see that he blames left-wingers for the censorship.

It's all those damn minorities and those liberal teachers trying to avoid offending anybody who got the censorship rolling, resulting eventually in the book-burning society he portrays.

And I suppose when I did, I didn't catch that subtle point (it would have been a subtle point when I was 16 or so, anyway).

The anti-car thing has come up in some of his other writing as well, I believe.

I got a book by him a while back (within the last two or three years) and found I didn't really like it. It was a book of short stories, and I just assumed that maybe I was getting too "mature" for science fiction. But, maybe I was picking up on the politics, as well.

Let's see, where to start ok here's one remember Martian Chronicles ?

Well here's another movie to get unhappy about.

The Chronicles of Riddick

and there's Marvin Martin go get him.

Oops, not so fast there
looks like he beat to you that one.
You'll be hearing from his lawyer.
Be advised Marv packs the ultimate heat.



Martian Chronicles - 1950

Marvin Martian - 1948

plus, this is not the same title anyway.

but you never know what hooks the rightwing will try to pull to bring this film down...

I thought that F911 was about Bush, ladin and AQ....not book burning

on a name of a book....now if he owns a federally registered trademark on the name F-911 that is a different story...I doubt it!

Rod Serling, a true progressive liberal, is long dead.

But, I know he would have approved!

O8)

but I still love his books :shrug:

I used to have a lot of respect for Bradbury. He doesnt own the word "Farenheit."

He is just offended that he was not asked as a courtesy, which would have been a decent thing to do, especially considering the stature of the book and author.

I followed the link to the story. It just seems like Ray's cranky old fart who's annoyed Moore didn't call like he promised. Let's face it, calling the guy would have been the polite thing to do.

The story didn't say or even imply that Ray was going to sue or anything, so it seems like he was just being grumpy. And besides, if you wrote one of the most widely read and acclaimed, even important, stories in the history of the genre, AND the guy making the movie stood to make a pretty penny, wouldn't you at least like a courtesy call? :shrug:

Can't wait to see the flick.

-AA

Just for fun, tell me what parallel Moore's movie has with Bradbury's original sci-fi story.

Oh, by the way, since there is no copyright on TITLES of stories and/or films, Moore really doesn't owe Bradbury anything, much less a phone call. If I remember correctly, Bradbury has been saying things behind the scenes long before his recent quote appeared, and Moore may have decided calling Bradbury was not real high on his priority list.

Sorry, because I know that literature is subjective, but I think the book is pretty simplisitic--good for 9th graders, but not very sophisticated. In the end, professors are viewed as the saviours of mankind. Oh, please, Ray! Have you been to graduate school (as I have)?
Professors are so into literary theory that it border on absurd to think they will save mankind from anyting.

One poster wrote that Bradburry called Clinton a sh**head and said he was glad that Bush got elected so that Bush could fix the damage that Clinton did to the education system. What kind of nonsense is that? The education system is broke (I've worked in it for 10 years) by and large because Americans don't value reading. I don't see where Clinton broke it or Bush fixed it.

And yes, as other posters said, you can't copyright a title.

(Apologies to Bradburry fans!)

Game.

Set.

Match.

Nice one!

looks like he got some good press out of it. i always liked his style.

No matter what you think, you can't deny that he is one of the greatest science fiction authors.

He loves to spread lies about Bill Clinton - is that ok as long as you are a great writer?

His books are great.I can seperate the two :shrug:

and stick up for right wing assholes.

At least you're consistant.

Funny how you never spout off on your own to criticize bunkerboy or something similar.

Don't criticize raygun - being rude to the dead.

Don't blame bunkerboy for the rash of beheadings - it's just a cooincidence that those awful terra-ists just happen to decide to behead people for no reason at all.

Yeah, right.

Did you respond to the wrong person?

And Anne Coulter is a lousy writer.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

On Edit: Nevermind. The only cool news is that I felt compelled to use this new fangled "alert" hyperlink. Now everything is sweetness and light. <hugs>

Time to turn the light of truth on, and watch them all scurry back.

We can set our watches by them.

I started looking around for a copy of F451. I thought it was time to reread it. I had read it as a kid and it was one of the books that encouraged me to be the rational thinking person that I claim to be. From it, and also 1984, I learned that freedom was a delicate thing that had to be constantly protected from those who would destroy it for their own motives. Bradbury had written in parable form about the importance of protecting truth. Moore turned that same topic into a film.

"Moore turned that same topic into a film."

IMHO the above statement makes no sense to my person, at all. <confused look> Well, unless writing "in parables" is patented?

Moore took Bradbury's parable about defending the truth and made a movie about defending the truth.

using the broad theme (defending the truth) is not a valid basis for a lawsuit. Excuse, that was my precise point. If it is many of us will be served for banking off of "Jesus's Bible Parables."

in his rancor. I was saying how misguided it was. He should have kept his mouth shut. The obvious connections between F451 and F911 would have resulted in sells for f451. As far as calling F451 a parable that is what it is. Telling truth in a situation that hasn't happened but could possibly happen.

... is because he knows that there's a good chunk of Americans out there who don't know anything about our history or literature or culture and who have never heard of his book. This is just his way of getting people to pay attention to him and the fact that he wrote the book that is the inspiration for Moore's film. It's free publicity.

He doesn't own the word........."Farenheit"!!!

"Fahrenheit 451" takes its title from the temperature at which books burn. Moore has called "Fahrenheit 9/11" the "temperature at which freedom burns."

Such anologies might be a stretch but worth consideration in a "project english" course. However, 9/11 is NOT a temperature but a date. Still, there's cute parallels but methinks we're stretching these tenable links ad nauseum.

Fahrenheit 9/11

Bradbury is really losing it lately. He recently supported *'s plan to go to Mars, completely ignoring the cost or that the money could be better spent on education (teaching people to read his books). He just seems really out of touch for someone who used to appear so visionary.

space projects. The Hubble is one of those projects that is being defunded by Bush to pay for it.

He has a knee-jerk antipathy to anything "social" in government, regards "entrepreneurs" as heroes, and adores George W. Bush. Bradbury does not seem capable of distinguishing between Norman Rockwell and reality. On 8/29/2001 in Salon, he responded to a question:

Q: What do you think of President Bush?
A: He's wonderful. We needed him. Clinton is a shithead and we're glad to be rid of him.

As we can see from his animosity toward Moore, he applies the "rules" conveniently, according to his own visceral bias, not adhering to them himself. This is not integrity, it's hypocrisy - typical of those who see others in the world as either friend or foe, ally or enemy. Ambiguity isn't something Bradbury deals with comfortably. His novels are filled with unidimensional characters without the contradictions and foibles that mark all humanity. He sees no gray, just black and white.

man.

sigh.

It's called a reference. You know, like the many times you named short stories off of things that Melville wrote? If you can play around with the titles of other authors then others can too.

eom

Hmmmmmm.........

Let's send them to the pittiful bastard.

that's a different story.

since Moore didn't ask for Bradbury's permission.

I think Bradbury is exhibiting signs of something, what it is I can't quite say.

"Bradbury, who is a registered political independent, said he would rather avoid litigation and is "hoping to settle this as two gentlemen, if he'll shake hands with me and give me back my book and title.""

This is mainly interesting as to the typical legal moves signified by this late late in the game complaint. Bradbury has been playing this game a long time as a professional writer so he knows the score on how this usually shakes down.

He must have been presuming either he would lose(so he gets brouhaha satisfaction, maybe some political points for the Bushies?) or that he would win, but not enough to block the film's release so it would largely end up as money grubbing for the lawyers of both.

At any rate he HAS gotten some satisfaction. A polite nod(without surrendering the legal point dangerously) by Moore or a shrug off until after? He has both options without giving in or locking legal horns enough to stop the film.

Unless some idiot got to Bradbury late as a last ditch goon effort this looks like a mutual dance not meant to defeat the point of either man, and ensure even more of that good ole dramatic publicity for both.

I am not sure of the legal justification about using a temperature quote anymore than a Biblical or movie tribute quote or even the same title so long as the substance is the same.

If Bradbury is willing to claim that the content is NOT apples and oranges but two anti-fascist pieces now THAT would fine.

I wouldn't start cursing out this wily oldster until the game reveals itself as a demeaning political ploy, self-centered afterthought, principled author outrage or some more craftily plotted ploy. Especially as it is extremely unlikely this will stop the film or affect any attitudes as to the content.

The kneejerk response to this oddly timed complaint may be justified, but these quarrels happen all the time. The new dog of the moment almost always wins. He is definitely not the writer who writes futuristic epics along the PNAC visionary lines and very much anti-totalitarian. Maybe another brand of small town libertarian different from some hard science sf writers?

It's called "Brain Eaters Syndrome" in fandom.

It happens when a talented (usually Liberal) writer starts saying, writing, and doing weird shit as they grow older. Usually the writer is then referred to as two different people--the "Good (name of author) vs. the "Bad (name of the author)". Usually it would be dismissed as simple aging in non-authors, but for writers it's a bit different since you see their words in print.

I heard him speak at the unveiling of our new libray at my alma matter, and he was talking about the great progress we've made as a nation (in terms of science and space). He also mentioned how much he loved libraries, and librarians. He sure didn't sound like a *Bush supporter to me, so this comes as a surprise. I even have my worn, tattered copy of The Martain Chronicles autographed by him.
For someone who wrote a book about censorship and believes in freedom of speech so strongly, he sure picked the wrong team to support.
Pity. I liked the man once.

Haven't heard how he's doing since but at his age, it's doubtful that he's recovered totally, or perhaps even significantly. Keep this in mind because it may well be affecting his reactions, if not actually causing someone else to "speak for" him.

I think he's got his priorities backwards. He can only benefit from the linkage between his book and Moore's movie. I thought the movie version of his book stank, by the way.

.. angers me.

Hey Ray, if you think you have ANY LEGAL BASIS whatosever against the movie title, then please file a lawsuit.

Otherwise, crawl back into your freeptard hole and STFU.

Bradbury doesn't have a leg to stand on. But if he does, then couldn't the estate of the inventor of the Farenheit thermometer sue HIM?

:headbang:
rocknation

so what point is he trying to make? Does he really think he's got a case?

-- Allen

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0360556/

That's my guess at least, also his ranting will be good publicity for the upcoming film. Personally I think his ranting is part politically motivated nad part hopeing to increase people going to 2005 movie so he will be remebered.

Patrick Schoeb

F451 the temp at which BOOKS burn? Well.. how about Bradbury either wittingly, or unwittingly helping to do the very same damn thing to the film. Banning it appears to be the track the neocons are taking to get the film buried. Gee.. how many GOP lawyers have called Bradbury so far to offer assistance in going after Moore?? Hmmm?? And now Mel Gibson, of all people, is supposedly wanting to remake F451 now? It all stinks..

The ONLY thing that the GOP can do to stop this film is grab a bought judge to issue an injunction against showing the film based on Bradburys claim that it violates his intellectual property.

Worst case, the film cannot be shown until it's proven that there is no violation - an easy thing to do.

Frankly, I hope it happens.

People will be piiiiiissssssed!

"Come on GOP! Piss some more citizens off!"

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

before cussing him out for his attitude.

Unless anybody here has actually seen & heard him, on TV if not in person, making the statement about the movie, I'd be dubious. It could well be his agent, or someone else, who's putting words in his mouth. Their motive could be monetary or political, or both.

:hippie:

Finally, it is difficult to draw clear lines between parody and other types of transformative use, including political protest. For example, in response to Fox Broadcasting's recent actions against unauthorized Millenium Web sites, one author posted a story, Fahrenheit 1013, that used the X-Files characters and settings to posit a nightmare world in which all forms of expression, including children's names, are owned by corporate entities, making human creativity and communication impossible. n82 Parody? Political statement? Neither? When does use of a "canon" turn from respect for the form to parody? For example, in Star Trek, is it parody or homage to use the truism that the poor fellow in the red shirt who beams down with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy is going to be the one of the four to die? n83 For these reasons, the fair use inquiry should not require a transformative use to be parodic to be protected.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

n82. Deborah L. Wells, Fahrenheit 1013 (visited Nov. 12, 1996). The story's title, of course, evokes another copyrighted work about the suppression of ideas, and few would deny that this reference was a legitimate use, though not a parody. See generally Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451 (1953).

n83. See David Bromwich, Parody, Pastiche, and Allusion, in Lyric Poetry: Beyond New Criticism 328, 328-31 (Chaviva Hosek & Patricia Parker eds., 1985) (arguing that parody is always also homage).

http://www.tushnet.com/law/fanficarticle.html

Can't add any more to what's already been said. More power to
Moore!

from beyond the grave http://www.raybradbury.com/books/isingthebodyelectric-tp.html

are not copyright protected.