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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 07:38 PM
Original message
Rumsfeld Seeking to Bolster Force Without New G.I.'s
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/24/international/worldspecial/24TROO.html?ex=1062302400&en=cb6c1a6a2cd317b5&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, seeking to increase the nation's combat power without hiring more troops, is poised to order a sweeping review of Pentagon policies, officials say. It will include everything from wartime mobilization and peacekeeping commitments, to reservist training and incentives for extended duty.

A senior Defense Department official said Mr. Rumsfeld would order the Pentagon's senior leadership, both civilian and military, to rethink ways to reduce stress on the armed forces, fulfill recruitment and retention goals and operate the Pentagon more efficiently.

In essence, Mr. Rumsfeld will ask the service secretaries and chiefs and his under secretaries to address how the Pentagon can more efficiently use its troops at a time when the armed forces are spread thin by global deployments.

Should Mr. Rumsfeld eventually be forced to expand the military, whether by unexpected missions, future threats or a Congressional mandate, the effort should reduce the size of the reinforcements required, officials said.

The review will be seen in some circles as answering powerful members of Congress who have demanded more active-duty troops for the military. Lengthy deployments to Iraq drew scattered complaints from families of soldiers, and some reservists criticized their extended call-ups.

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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. LOL
Oh good luck Rumsfeld...it's called 'imperial overstretch'
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raifield Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. "Congressional Mandate"
Another way of saying 'draft', right?
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DrBB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. In other words: PANIC, the PLAN isn't WORKING!!!
Sorry, Don, but this just reeeeeeeeks of panic and denial.

The review will be seen in some circles as answering powerful members of Congress who have demanded more active-duty troops for the military.

Yeah, well, which circles are those, exactly? The circles surrounding Dick Cheney? or--even wider!--the ones surrounding Condi Rice? Cuz sure as shit those circles don't reach very far beyond the incestuous little group-think operation you've been running for the last three years. Mostly what we see out here is you with the devil of abject failure slavering at your heels and you running ever faster and farther down the same dark road that leads to a bridge-out swamp full of crocodiles and you just hope if you keep going faster in the same direction you'll end up somewhere else. But you won't, cuz that's not where this particular road ends up.
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shockingelk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. my suggestion and a bravo
"Some concepts being proposed as ways to enhance combat power challenge core military planning."

My suggestion: in the future, don't plan to start a war.

"Another asks whether advances in intelligence-gathering and analysis allow the nation to anticipate threats with greater accuracy."

Brilliant - if only this were a direct quote from Rumsfeld speaking of being able to "anticipate threats with greater accuracy".
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shockandawed Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. So funny!!!
You nailed it.

Best way to have enough troops? Dont go to fucking war! There it is. Beautiful.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. There was a good article in editorials a while back
well actually it's from the Washington Times but there are some good bits in it:

<<snip>>

"Today, in addition to the 491,000 active-duty Army soldiers, there are 550,000 members of the Reserve and National Guard. In order to keep 370,000 of our soldiers deployed to more than 100 countries, we have called to active duty an unprecedented 136,000 members of the Reserve and National Guard."

<<snip>>

"The Army recently announced a sound plan to replace units in Iraq with a mix of active-duty and reserve forces. When our units in Kosovo, Bosnia and the Sinai Peninsula complete their six-month rotations, they will be replaced with National Guard units."

<<snip>>

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030819-094823-5897r.htm
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raifield Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. National Guard units...
Plumbers, teachers, policemen, firemen, accountants, aerobic instructors, all very good National Guardsmen, don't get me wrong, but I think the National Guard isn't trained for the same things the Army is trained for. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. and he can kiss that recovery
bye-bye.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Thats the truly scary thing
You're dead-on correct. Send National Guard units (one weekend a month of training) into a fucking warzone and you're begging for massive casualties.
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shockandawed Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I dont claim to be an army expert, and correct me if I am wrong, but...
Isn't the national guard for shit like guarding flooded dikes and airports and shit in our nation, since their title is the NATIONAL guard. I could be wrong, but their title does hint at that.

Any takers?
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. My son is a National Guardsmen and they better NOT send him
but they want to deploy his unit..what bullshit..Hes 25, and there is no way in hell I will allow it..so much for fucking Homeland Security when they start dragging Guard troops over there...Its beyond belief...
I met a kid yesterday who is in another NG unit and is on his way to Iraq...he was a KID...21...I said "Honey Im so sorry Im going to do everything I can to get you back here"
He looked sad and said "thank you ma am, Ill keep my head down"..
FUCK THIS SHIT THESE ARE OUR KIDS....FUCK BUSH AND FUCK HIS WHOLE GREEDY CABAL OF LYING THIEVES AND MONSTERS
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. WHOLE GREEDY CABAL OF LYING THIEVES AND MONSTERS
Only when the deaths and injuries start to number in the thousands, will the people finally wake up from their sound slumber, and throw out this whole group of thugs and murderers.
(If one counts the civilians, its already there, But according to CHIMP, they don't count)
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. There, deck chairs all in perfect order
Full speed ahead, Titanic! Cap'n Rummy says give 'er all she's got!
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. More privatization? Did I hear this correctly?
Which of their buddies gets this contract?

<snip>
Other proposals are based in pragmatism. Mr. Rumsfeld told Congress he wanted to transfer to civilians or contract workers an estimated 300,000 administrative jobs now performed by people in uniform.
<snip>
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shockandawed Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. SO I GET IT - HERE IS BUSH'S JOB PLAN
I just haven't been understanding the big guys plans.

He IS creating jobs. Instead of the draft, he will destroy the economy then offer private sector soldier jobs. A PRIVATE ARMY, huh Rummy?

A private fucking army should be illegal.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
14. "Do more with less"
Didn't this make them VERY upset with Clinton?

It's the same deal with the TOTALLY bogus CONSTANTLY rising "productivity" numbers. It's the same dang people, bennies cut, reving it up til they work themselves into a stoop so they don't lose a job that becomes more dear because of impending layoffs. How long can "productivity" rise under such conditions?
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Saintgermane Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yeah, but.....
From the article:

"Other proposals are based in pragmatism. Mr. Rumsfeld told Congress he wanted to transfer to civilians or contract workers an estimated 300,000 administrative jobs now performed by people in uniform.

While some on Capitol Hill reject that total as high, one senior Pentagon official said that if even one-sixth of those jobs were converted, then the equivalent of more than two Army divisions could enter the fighting force without any increase in the number of paid military personnel."

Even given this actually happens, you cannot convert cooks to infantry overnight. So we save two division's worth of manpower by 'civilianizing' some jobs....

...great.

Still takes years to modify force structure, create more combat units, recruit, train, equip, and staff them. Also, what is the cost in special pays to civilians deployed to combat zones?

The tooth-to-tail ratio is a fundamentally unalterable aspect of military operations. Yes, you can civilianize certain jobs, but the fact remains, there are people doing that specific job, in or out of uniform, and some (most) of them have to serve close to the troops....

As well, this comment concerns me:

(italics mine)

..."will include everything from wartime mobilization and peacekeeping commitments, to reservist training and incentives for extended duty.

Does this mean we will offer reservists financial or other compensation and benefits above and beyond what active troops receive? If so, then the military may find itself in the awkward position of paying reservists more than they pay active-duty soldiers....a position hardly likely to encourage active duty enlistment and reenlistment.

Granted, reservists (at least anecdotally, and in many cases, in reality) suffer economic hardship if activated for extended periods, as military pay does not match certain individuals' civilian pay....however, I believe (although I admit I cannot prove), this case mostly exists for those who are very highly skilled in the civilian sector - doctors, attorneys, and similar high-paid professionals who serve in areas outside their civilian specialty when activated.

To argue that activated reservists deserve compensation over and above that received by active duty soldiers serving in similar (in many cases identical) positions is to diminish both the contribution and the value of serving active duty soldiers.

To give a specific example:

If an active duty soldier, infantry, earns X dollars a year, and his reservist counterpart, who chooses to serve in a reserve status, but in civilian life is an attorney, receives compensation (X + Y dollars where Y dollars is the difference between nominal civilian earnings and military pay) to offset the loss of 'professional civilian dollars' while serving as a line soldier, then the service of the active duty soldier is devalued.

To illustrate on a more personal level:

I am an active duty officer with 19 years service. I currently advise a National Guard unit, of whose officers many are highly skilled professionals earning more than I in their civilian professions.

Are we now to suggest that, if they are activated, they, who have a part-time commitment, are to earn more than I, who has made a lifetime commitment, simply because activation has imposed economic hardship?

Before some attack me as being being peevish, consider that reserve pay already grants them two days of active duty pay for each day served....one "day" being a "drill", and one "drill" being a four-hour block of time spent performing military tasks in uniform, so, for each eight-hour drill each Guardsman (of equivalent rank to I), earns what I earn in two 24-hour periods.

Finally, I am sick to death of of Guardsmen crying about "one weekend a month and two weeks a year my ass"...the contract is quite specific. Guardsmen, reservists, are subject to activation and call up. Deal with it. If you don't like it, forego the significant considerations given by most states and the federal governement for reserve service, and go back to your (highly paid) civilian job.

To me, Rumsfeld's allusion to granting deployed reservists' financial incentives for performing the identical job their active duty counterparts perform is granting them their cake and the eating of it as well.

In the event, and despite my tirade, none of the suggestions mentioned in the article will solve the fundamental problem of a military overtasked and undermanned, overdeployed and underpaid.

Funny.

And I thought republicans were all about reducing the burden on the U.S. military. After all, Clinton was pilloried over and over, in the "liberal media" for overtasking the military.

Sheesh.

I gotta stop. This is a tirade without end...

sorry

EOR, Saintgermane








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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Thank you for your service.
We understand your most eloquently put arguments against "incentives" for NG units over and above what "regular" full-time NG people get.

But my argument is different. NG units are to protect OUR country, not to project our empire throughout the world. Who are we going to count on to help in case of drastic forest fires, hurricanes, rioting..and so on, if the troops that are supposed to protect OUR country here are OVER THERE.

Sure there should be the ability to call them up in a national emergency, but planning and carrying out an aggressive war since inauguration day is NO DAMN NATIONAL EMERGENCY!!

And privatization has already resulted in our soldiers not getting cooks to prepare any meals in over a year..(it has been a year since many of the troops were deployed to Kuwait to wait for the INVASION.)And privatization of paymasters and other financial personnel has resulted in pay for families getting messed up and families having to put ordinary living expenses on credit cards at 21% interest, contributing to their financial hardship.(Thought we forgot about that one, didn't you, Rummy?)
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. They are putting STOP LOCKS on NG units
My son and many others are supposed to get OUT in Nov...they wont let them go..Bastards! These kids have done their time.
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hadrons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. will Dumsfeld hand out "WIN" buttons???
dumb-asses
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. End Strength and no waiting for a second term this is his personal agenda
Edited on Sun Aug-24-03 08:17 AM by bobthedrummer
wow.

It seems like a mixture of feudalism, militarism and war crimes. Desperation.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-24-03 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
22. Darthrummy is playing a game
who's outcome was determined long ago. He's moving his checkers around and around the board staving off the fact that the king is in jeopardy.

Fucking checker playing idiots don't realize they're on a chess board and have been out thought.
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