Baptism in the Tigris for U.S. Christian soldiers

man can take the words of any prophet or even the words of God and twist them to justify what he is doing at the time.

seem to know the Old Testament very well. It's the part in the Bible right after Jesus turns up that their memories get a little patchy.

Let's be a little more tolerant shall we.

I think it's beautiful that these soldiers were baptized
in the Tigris.

killing innocent people in the name of Christ?

Sorry, no can do.

PBWY,
DYEW

They're doing their commited military duty.....most just happen to be Christians. It's not a Crusade. It's a occupational take-over....but the military personnel are to follow orders, they are not at fault.

*Bush and Company bear all the responsibility.


Additionally, it is none of my damn business how one exercizes their spiritual beliefs on their off time.

> They are not doing it in the name of Christ; They're doing their
> commited military duty.....most just happen to be Christians.

Most just happen to be "Christians" who kill.

They put aside their supposed religion, pick up their weapons,
and routinely violate one of the ten fundamental rules of their
religion, not to mention direct advice from their Savior:
"Turn the other cheek" (see below).

They can be baptised in the river until their private parts
shrivel up and fall off, but they certainly don't appear to
be "Christians" by any definition of the term that actually
includes Christ.

Atlant


Matthew 5 (The Sermon on the Mount)

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right
cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that
hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Using scripture to promote "your" version of Christianity.
The bible also says "render unto caesars what is caesars".
Their body is currently the property of the U.S. military.
I personally think God sees the difference between wartime killing and murder. He sees the heart and the motives.

I'll agree that it is a touchy subject, but let's give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt. They're extremely young men trying to serve their country, and figure out life at the same time.
They didn't start the war, Bush did.

> Atlant, you're as bad as the extreme fundies

You obviously haven't met enough fundies. I simply told you
what Christ (you know, the guy they named the religion
after) said. He clearly believed something other than the
au currant "Kill them all and let God sort them out".


> I'll agree that it is a touchy subject, but let's give our
> soldiers the benefit of the doubt.

Better yet, let's not put them in situations where they are
forced to make immoral decisions. Bring them home now and
replace them with UN peace-keepers.

Atlant

Galatians 5:14-
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Basically, the way the story goes is that the christ said that all of the 10 Commandments fall under two categories:

Love god.
Love your neighbor(i.e. other people).

It's always nice to have a couple of "choice" NEW Testament quotations to throw back at the fundie kooks who seem to prefer quoting the OLD Testament- I guess they just like reading about the law & order god smiting people left and right, rather than all that hippy "love, love, love" stuff that jesus the longhair spews in the New Testament.

> I think it's beautiful that these soldiers were baptized
> in the Tigris.

Why do you find it "beautiful"?

Did the world need more fundamentalists? Even if they are on "our" side?

Atlant

about these young men. Facing the harsh reality of military life
in Iraq, these soldiers have obviously done a lot of soul searching
and come to the conclusion that they wanted to make a public display
of their religious beliefs. Nowhere in article did it say they
were fundamentalists, and nowhere did it even hint they were
fundamentalists. Where are you getting the fundamentalist thing
from?

For a lot of the young military in Iraq, this will help them mature
rapidly! This includes giving them a vastly different perspective
on life, improving their organizational skills, and for many it
will make them think twice about their religious beliefs. Facing
death everyday has a way of doing that to people.

> Nowhere in article did it say they were fundamentalists,
> and nowhere did it even hint they were fundamentalists.
> Where are you getting the fundamentalist thing from?

Most Christians settle for baptism in a baptismal font.

Atlant

I attended religious services. It was a way to escape the harsh realities of combat life. It serves as a way to gain some peace and direction in a harsh cruel environment. I too see nothing wrong with an American soldiers practicing his/her religious freedom regardless of what flavor it is.

Raw sewage is pouring into the Tigris - so its a baptism in urine & shit. Perfect.

the pastor needs reprimanded for presenting unnecessary danger to the troops. what was he thinking?

I doubt God is thrilled with this behavior.

in the Mississippi, The Missouri, The Hudson...

Stay the phuck out of the Tigris, and out of Iraq.

That's all we need, to have Christians declare it holy water.

Like there isn't enough religious "Mine!" "No! It's mine!" in that area.

Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.

They never cease to amaze. There is no limit to how low they will go.

Pompous, immature misanthropes.

Their world of acceptable people is going to get smaller, and smaller.

I LOVE their new definition of "Thou shall not kill." Simply astonishing. Leaves lots of room for killing any and everyone different from them. They simply annouce he/she's not "innocent."

Where have we heard this before, say, the INQUISITION?

but there is absolutely no twisting of words need from the OT. None, nada, zip. Some of the natiest stuff I ever read.

Julie

a little bit more won't hurt them, I suppose

Soldiers swore to support and defend the constitution of the united states regardless of political affiliation. Soldiers are technically not allowed to voice a politcal opinion or run for government office. Regardless of who is sitting in the Whitehouse, that person is the commander of all armed forces and Servicemen and Women are required to go and carry out the mission that has been laid before them.

We (yes I am a vet) are not allowed to say anything (in public but not private) negative about our chain of command. We are not brainwashed. We just like feeding our families. This is just another job. There are many democrats in the Us Armed forces that do not agree but yet carry on the mission that they "Volunteered" to do.

Got proof?

Some humans can justify anything. Cain killed Abel, does that mean I should kill my brother?

...when she attempted to use similar religious reasoning for drowning her kids in Texas. Wierd.

Don

would kill their wives, if they found out that they had an abortion?

Illogical people drive me nuts.

if you believe the OT is true, then *yes*.

There's Numbers 31:1-30 and then that whole Josua thing and plenty of others, Isiah has lots of colorful instructions from Above....

And let us not even attempt to calculate the individual, or smaller scale murders and other nasty business that are either, commanded or just plain pleasing to "God".

If I were to have a God, it surely would not be that one.

Julie

did. The candidates were falling all over each other trying to outdo the piety of the other. Religion has no place in a campaign--and if it does, be suspicious, be very suspicious, for it is not a spiritual quest, it is a card being played on the gullible

It was obscene in 2000 the way the god was trotted out whenever covenient-by both sides-and if it happens again, well--there you have it--be on the watch for more fascism coming your way via George the Christ.


What is the solution to this manipulation? Keep dieties, gods, and other 'higher powers' out of this government. Simple--why is that so hard to do?

According to Jung all gaps in actual knowledge are still filled out with projections. Under the sway of religious projections the common man is convinced that certain people have all the vices and bad qualities we do not see in ourselves.

Under the blinder imposed by religious (and now politicized) projections ordinary persons cannot see straight because they no longer understand themselves and the nature of their own dealings. (Such as becoming a homicidal invader in a war for plunder, territory and advantage or simply cheaper gas for the guzzling SUV?) According to Jung the psychic condition in which man is divorced from his own true personality by religion corresponds to the idealized and totalitarian pretensions (propaganda) of the hypertrophic state.

When the unconcious content of the human mind is replaced by a projected, irrational and superficial image by the state or religion it is cut off from all influence on the concious mind. Cut off from its true other (lacking insight), the conscious actor unknowingly regresses to lower "pagan and archaic" levels. Then so called Christians are unconciously and readily motivated by the desire for gain and the advancement of interests, which do not spring from Christian ethic, but from the barbaric impulses as pagan and archaic as wars of conquest. Christianity is a concrete but a "terrifying" and "hollow veneer" which provides a fitting disguise and uncritical means for our pagan (fascist) leaders who vilify Christian and ethical spirit to plan and execute the wars of our time.

It is not a coincidence that the conquistador poses as the missionary. This is an essential state propaganda function for wars of conquest. Taking away the idealistic and superficial veneer of religion and the idealized state (patriotism) the common man is confronted by conflicts too troubling to deal with. He might not be able to say they did this, they did that, or "they must be fought against." He might see the problem is himself first and undertake a responsibility to shoulder the "gigantic unsolved social problems of our day."

> The Bible says 'thou shalt not kill' but the original Greek says
> 'thou shalt not take a judicially innocent life'. Saddam and his men
> are pretty evil, if they were tried in any court, they would be
> found guilty," said Goodwin.

I didn't realize the ten commandments were in Greek! I always figured
they were in Hebrew or whatever written language was used at that time
by the tribes of Israel brought out of Egypt by Moses.

But I guess Goodwin must know better; his interpretation is certainly
MORE CONVENIENT, considering that his business is killing people.

Atlant

Have we had any judicial proceedings in Iraq? No? I guess they're still trying to get the electricity working in the courtroom, huh?

There seems to be a strong push on the fundie side lately to insist that the commandment isn't really against killing -- just against murder. This is because they want to be able to justify war and capital punishment.

This has been annoying me, not least because murder is a purely legal concept, defined differently in different cultures, and I would expect the ten commandments would, at the least, be above matters of local law.

So I finally looked up what it actually means, and the most useful discussion I've found is here:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html

Indeed, "kill" in English is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. That kind of generalization is expressed in Hebrew through the verb "harag." However, the verb that appears in the Torah's prohibition is a completely different one, "ratsah" which, it would seem, should be rendered "murder." This root refers only to criminal acts of killing.

It is, of course, not just a question of etymology. Those ideologies that adduce the commandment in support of their gentle-hearted causes are compelled to feign ignorance of all those other places in the Bible that condone or command warfare, the slaughter of sacrificial animals, and an assortment of methods for inflicting capital punishment.

<snip>

The fact remains, however, that even the Jewish translators were not unanimous in maintaining a consistent distinctions between the various Hebrew roots.

Don Isaac Abravanel and others noted that "ratsah" is employed in Numbers 35:27-30 both when dealing with an authorized case of blood vengeance, and with capital punishment--neither of which falls under the legal category of murder.

In fact, some distinguished Jewish philosophers believed that "thou shalt not kill" is a perfectly accurate rendering of the sixth commandment. Maimonides, for example, wrote that all cases of killing human beings involve violations of the command, even if the violation happens to be overridden by other mitigating factors. It has been suggested that this tradition underlies the virtual elimination of capital punishment in Rabbinic law.

Or is it that because they believe in another "God" they are not considered innocents? How many stories have we heard about families getting shot up at checkpoint by jumpy soldiers? Wouldn't this belief be inconsistent with the concept of "collateral damage"?

As defined by the Chimp in Chief and his handlers? :shrug:

To some soldiers it is as well, not not all! I just find it further insulting to the Iraqis, but, hey, since when have we considered what is or isn't insulting to the Iraqi people?!

They have a swimming poolfor the soldiers that they could have used with chlorine, etc. and not go out in public view of Iraqis who take EXTREME offense at Christianity, but I guess that was not an option? :shrug:

More power to the soldiers who have decided to accept spiritual responsibility for their lives!

I wonder what ever happened to winning the hearts and minds of Iraqis? Guess it got thrown out with the bath water, eh?

there are many christian iraquis (tarek aziz?).
But still, i agree that using the tigris for a religious display is probably not the best idea.

See other story here in LBN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=81863

The original 10 comandments are found in the torah, written in hebrew. Perhaps a student or jewish brother or sister here can clearify what exactly the real reading and meaning of it is.

It would be interesting to find out if the christian bible is as inacurate as this young soldier thinks it is.

See the discussion I quoted above -- the Hebrew verb "ratsah" which is used in the commandment also appeals twice in Numbers in a context which contradicts the assertion that it means "murder."

Chapter 35 of Numbers begins by making a distinction between murderers, who have killed on purpose, and homicides, who have killed by accident, and states that certain places of sanctuary are to be set up to protect homicides from vengeance by the relatives of the dead until they can stand trial. It goes on:

"If the homicide ever goes beyond the boundaries of the city where he has taken sanctuary, and the next-of-kin finds him outside and kills him, then the next-of-kin shall not be guilty of murder. . . .

"The homicide shall be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses."

Both these passages apparently use the verb "ratsah" -- one to describe a killing which is explicitly not to be considered murder, and the other to describe a legal execution after trial.

have no import here. Thanks, nevertheless.

it says "Thou shall not commit murder".

Killing for Gawd and King was always sanctioned.

You stepped in and pointed out something absolutely necessary to know in order to see how twisted these obnoxious, unloving, uncharitable, murderous faux-Christians actually are.

Greek, indeed! Thanks.

The original Greek. Perhaps he is recalling Athena's and Aphrodite's interpretation of the Bible.

:evilgrin:

But it seems to me that there was this other guy (what was his name again?) who came along and made a bunch of revisions.

It was something to do with 'turning the other cheek', 'not throwing stones', taking care of 'the least among us', and all that stuff.

What WAS that guy's name again?...

:shrug:

that may explain the warm temperature of the river.

I wouldn't wade, much less swim, in any Iraqi body of water precisely because the lack of electricity has forced Iraq to dump its raw sewage into its rivers.

Otherwise, they may get very sick!

:-(

There are no athiests in foxholes.

Some known atheists who served:

Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
US Army (1943-45)
106th Infantry Division
POW

Robert Heinlein
US Navy (1926-34)
USS Lexington / USS Roper

Robert Ingersoll
US Army (1861-63)
11th Illinois Cavalry
POW

Sir Richard Francis Burton (Served in India)
Gen. Sir Charles James Napier (Napoleonic Wars)
Gen. Arthur Condorcet O'Connor (Officer for French Army)
Gen. Bernardo O'Higgins
Giuseppe Garibaldi

As James Morrow said: "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes"

These guys should look at what they are doing over there everyday and then decide if they actually want to get baptised on the same land they are killing people.

Saddam and his followers, whom they have tried and convicted on the flimsiest of lies. They are murdering innocent people.

The real problem here is that this is just another taunt, like ripping down that damn banner the other week. We are just so culturally insensitive, there's no way we'll win hearts and minds. Period.

A taunt just like putting a 2 ton granite copy of the 10 commandments in a Alabama courthouse. How much you want to bet most if not all of these guys getting baptized have already been baptized.
Religion for most of these fundies is like waving a giant foam middle finger at everyone else.

We can't keep spitting in the face of the traditions of Islamic culture if we want them to cooperate with us.

intellegent reply I've seen here.

> We can't keep spitting in the face of the traditions of Islamic
> culture if we want them to cooperate with us.

You presume we want them to cooperate.

There's a fair amount of evidence so far that suggests
that we just want to make as many of them as possible
be dead. Certainly that was the main effect of the years
of sanctions, and our carefully-modulated war so far
seems to be having much the same effect.

Onward Christian Soldiers!

Atlant

If anyone thinks a baptismal setting is not the perfect temptation for Iraqi snipers, think again. Standing still, weapons down, out in the open...that's a dream scenario for a guerilla with a long-range scope. Not to mention the "added bonus" of killing an infidel while he is getting baptized! What better present for an Islamic militant to offer up to Allah?

Of course, I'm not saying this is a good thing. It's very bad. And the practice of openly baptizing occupying soldiers inside a country full of Muslims is the dumbest idea I've heard in a while.

Organized religion: the original weapon of mass destruction.

to send them the cream they'll need after their sheep dip. No doubt one or two might find they have "sensitive" skin.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_349276,00050004.htm

A US soldier from the 3rd Armoured Cavalry Regiment drowned in the Euphrates River at about...100 km west of Baghdad, the US Central Command said...His body was found Sunday morning...no further details were available.


rocknation