Questions mount on Guard memos' authenticity

By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

A handwriting expert says the two signatures on purported Texas National Guard memos aired by CBS News this week are not those of President Bush's squadron commander, as asserted by "60 Minutes."

Until now, press scrutiny of the memos supposedly written by the late Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian focused on the finding that the documents were, in the opinion of experts, produced by computers not yet in use in the early 1970s.

Eugene P. Hussey, a certified forensic document examiner in Washington state, said yesterday there is another flaw in the CBS memos. Mr. Hussey studied the known signatures of Col. Killian on Air Force documents, and two signatures on documents dated 1972 and 1973 that aired on "60 Minutes" Wednesday night.

"It is my limited opinion that Killian did not sign those documents," Mr. Hussey told The Washington Times. He said he uses the phrase "limited opinion" because he does not have the original documents. He, like other experts interviewed by the press, relied on copies of originals first obtained by CBS. The White House then distributed copies of the memos in what is said was the interest of full disclosure.


http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040910-104821-5968r.htm

...

Hmmm... Looks like a new angle of attack. Are they starting to abandon the "its a computer generated forgery" tactic?

Interesting.

Later,

On edit: Hey, this is my 200th post! Woo hoo! :party:

Not even worth wiping my ass with.

Yes, it is, I believe.

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What, is Reverend Moon your personal savior?

I beg to differ. Its inner color pages are soft and supple as a baby's blanket, yet as absorbent as Pampers. Ahhhh...

!!

Jax

By foolishly taking on CBS News, the minions of President Cheney and his little organ grinder chimp have angered a sleeping giant in CBS News ... can't wait to see what the next major reveal is gonna be ... because you just know there's more to come. The funny thing is, Bush is welcome and encouraged to come out at any time and clear the air. And that ain't gonna happen, folks, cuz he's GUILTY as charged!

Did Lt.bush* refuse to follow a DIRECT ORDER from a superior officer during wartime?

I know the answer.
Dan Rather knows the answer.
Soon, the American People will know the answer.

The Killian documents are a red herring.

We all know he refused to follow a direct order.

But why? That's the real story here, IMHO. I am interested to see if anybody follows up on the FOIA proposal re. James Bath, to see if his records can shed some light on this. Did he spend time at Project PUSH(?) in Houston with Dubya? Perhaps they were punished for the same thing, although I don't think any investigation in that direction would bear fruit prior to the election.

who, when he received a letter from a critic, wrote back something like, sir, I am sitting on the john with your letter before me....soon it will be behind me....

"Hmmm... Looks like a new angle of attack. Are they starting to abandon the "its a computer generated forgery" tactic?"

They have dug in on this story and don't seem to be abandoning anything. They just keep getting into it deeper and deeper. Frankly, I am hoping the DNC did not have anything to do with this. I'm sorry, but as I follow this story the documents are fake.

While the events and circumstances these documents purport most likely did happen, the Bush machine has covered this up so well. I am afraid that for lack of being able to find what they need, someone decided to create it.

Again, I'm sorry, but there are just too many discrepancies regarding the docs and the reporting saying they are fake is no longer coming from just the rabid right. I hope I am wrong. But CBS did not do anything tonight to answer this charge.

why are there WMDs in Iraq? I know the Wash. Times said there were, but i just haven't seen any so why do you think there are WMDs in Iraq again?

Oh that's right cause somebody told you that over and over and over so it made it true in you mind.

Did the Democrats plant the WMD story? Sure, that JK will do anything to get elected...

He even gassed himself with a WMD......

Sung Young Moon is a liberal, he wouldn't lie...

You don't follow me? Wow, you sure lost me on that one. Were we talking about WMD? I don't follow.

...because evidently, you got lost earlier trying to follow the extremely straightforward evidence presented by Dan Rather and CBS News.

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I heard what Rather said. What makes you think I did not understand it? I thought the CBS explanation was lame. You accept it, that is fine. But this is an election year in case you did not notice.

If CBS wants to put this to bed they should deal with the specifics. In my opinion what they essentially said was, "we are CBS and that should be enough." Bury your head on this if you want. It is not the right answer though. In case you did not notice, the issue did not go away with the CBS broadcast tonight.

As for freerepublic, I dont need that kind of sympathy, thanks.

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No problem. I did not ask to talk to you.

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I just think it would be a refreshing change to have anything, ANYTHING that challenges Kerry subjected to the same sort of fine-tooth comb scrutiny. Like the not-so-Swift Boat Liars, for example, see what I mean? Bush ignores a direct order, and what happens? See any of the news reports for the current circus atmosphere surrounding that allegation.

If we had any sort of free press or real journalism or investigative reporting at all, W would have to resign by now, let alone be down in the polls. I wish the people of this country would wake the fuck up.

Documents have been verified, per thread in LBN right now.

Why can't he name any of his pilot buddies in Alabama?

If he could do that, then we could believe that Alabama sent a report to Texas. But that's what the memos are about. The Texas Guard didn't get any papers from Alabama. Why not?

Like a loud, wet fart in a room full of nuns.

Fine, I'll give up. Your right. No problems. Everthing is fine. The story is no big deal. It is not on the news. No one is questioning CBS anymore. No one will point a figure at anyone on this. CBS did an excellent job answering the questions and tomorrow no one will be talking about it.

Why would they release copies of fake documents?

How would they have copies of fake documents to release?

Unless, of course THEY created the fake documents themselves,
but that seems really :tinfoilhat: since it will likely still
hurt them more than just letting the story die quickly.
Would Rove be that stupid? I don't think so, though he sure
seems to be off his game this week. They really weakened the
case for the documents being fake by releasing them themselves.

I thought CBS faxed the docs to the white house before they published them. The docs I saw has the CBS New New York fax number on it. You know, the fax machine imprint. I have no idea why the white house would send them out after that. I did not think this was news at this point that CBS sent them to the white house.

seem to mirror Rush Limbaugh's talking points of the day. Nope, correleation doesn't prove causation. However, methinks you are enjoying the process of "stirring the pot" free republic style.

The GOP Noise Machine

By David Brock....

This actually followed the usual route from the rabid right to ahem "maionstream" it only skipped one step.. the UK Sun Times

It is a figure of speech. but you knew that. Or were you really reading it only literally? Hard thing about typing in forums, no voice inflection to pick up the subtleties of verbal communcation. Like when you write, "I'm sure" verses saying it with a cock of the head and a rolling of the eyes and dragging out the last vowel. So, my apology if I was not clear when I said sorry.

The documents have been proven beyond a doubt to be genuine.

Bunkerboy himself released documents with the same typeface, etc.

There are NO descrepancies regarding the accuracy or genuineness of the documents.

Only repukes and other less savory characters keep springing up on this board to parrot repuke lies.

Why do YOU continue to do so?

It certainly is fun playing with your type, tho.

can make a definitive statement unless he or she has examined the original documents. I question the credibility and integrity of any "forensic document examiner" who would make such a serious charge without conducting a careful analysis of the originals.

Just another pathetic attempt--exactly like the original forgery tactics. Reeking of desperation and a brutal determination to win at any cost.

I am not a handwriting expert, so there there may actually be an explanation for this, but the "K" in Killian's name appears to be written in two distinct ways in the different memos. I believe the memos are authentic, but if I were trying to cast any doubt, that would be the one thing I would point out.

I'm no expert, either--but I'm pretty sure that in most cases, certainly if there is a legal dispute of some kind, an expert must work with the originals, if they are available.

I guess what it really boils down to is that I never trust the Moonie Times, and I really hope it is wrong again.

that the documents are part of his record which is why he hasn't denounced them as fakes.

They just pass out the stuff others write but they won't claim the papers as fakes themselves because they are authentic.

No other explaination.

Need to be started on this? Can't we just have a sticky? aND HOW MANY POST DO YOU HAVE TO HAVE BEFORE YOU CAN START A TOPIC?

Oops, sorry about caps!

How many posts before you can start a topic? I'll never tell. :-)

...is the person who examined the signatures of Killian for CBS. I would bet money on him. He is well known nationally and is a certified expert with NADE and does classes at their conventions and has published a ton.

I looked at some of the signatures of Killian on other documents and to me, and I am no expert, they are all over the place. Some look like someone else signed them. I say find some notorized signatures of Killian - like on real property deeds - and use these. Since Killian is dead, IMO, things where his signature had to be notorized would be a better source.

To discuss the authenticity is to miss discussing the content. The charges, if UNTRUE, would be LOUDLY and PUBLICLY dismissed by the administration with proper proof to back it up.

I understand what you are saying. Why isn't the white house saying the charge are not true? There is an old saying, don't shoot your enemy when he is in the process of killing himself. That is the way the white house is looking at it.

If you were Bush (sorry) and you were awol but some major campaign was just unleashed that said the docs proving it were fake, why would you do anything but sit back and watch. Remember, he is not trying to convince us.

Look Bush was Awol but somehow this whole docs story is not raising that point. It is deflecting from it. If people believe the docuemnts are fake, then the charge that Bush did not fullfill his duty has less merit not more. At least in the minds of the undecideds.

Period. :)

And there was NO WMD in Iraq since 1994. But rightwingnuts don't believe bush's own ISG about that, either.

And Iraq had NOTHING TO DO WITH the 911 attacks. And even bush himself has several times admitted that. But rightwingnuts don't believe that, either.

And we're LESS SAFE NOW, as bushCartel, the US State Dept, the rightwing thinktanks et al say. But rightwingnuts don't believe that, either.

And the earth is STILL ROUND.

http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/

Second item goes into significant detail on what it would take to do these memos on the IBM Selectric Composer machine.

The three memos all have perfectly centered headings. That is easy to do on a word processor to extreme precesion. According to an expert on the IBM Selectric Composer in the article, to do this would require the typist to actually get out a ruler and take measurements.

And all the headings on the memos exactly line up says the article.

I have no idea what any of this has to do with Iraq or WMD's. You completely lost me there. I'm just trying to decide if the memos are fake or not.

Selectric.

Centering is easy. It is one of the first things a typist learns.

Red herring.

Look I am undecided on this. If centering is so easy, what is the IBM Selectric Composer expert talking about saying it would be impossible to do with that machine exactly three times in a row and without considerable effort to get it exact?

Something just does not jive in this story. Someone says it is easy. Someone says it is nearly impossible. Please have a look. Thanks.

it did all that they claim was so difficult!

The idiots claiming otherwise never used one.

Actually - the qualty of the composer was equal to WORD - but the Docs are of a lesser quality - look like they were done on the other proportional system by IBM - the Executive typewriter. The "e" is above the line - and the proportionality looks like the executive - and - yes - you could "Center" on the Executive quite easily!

LOL - as the GOP and media dig themselves a hole!

:-)

which I have typed hundreds of hours on, making brochures, handouts and posters for student groups at Texas A&M in the early 70's.

The th superscript is on its own key, types as one unit, centering is indeed easy (and quite mechanically exact, because we were stripping those typed words up to be made into printing plates for a Multilith 1250 Offset press), and just never had a problem.

Thank you for bringing up the Executive!A GREAT machine, and very readily available and affordable for memos for banks, schools, and yes, even Guard units!

What makes you think he's an "IBM Selectric Composer expert"?

I read the manual on this "expert's" site. Centering was a piece of cake - set the centering mechanism to the center of the page, type the line into the "buffer" and go.

Perhaps this "expert" should read some of the material on his own site.

of voters haven't used a Selectric, and some of them have never used or possibly even seen a real electric or manual typewriter before. These attacks are directed at them- people who, through their own life experiences and for no other reason, don't know anything about these typewriters.

They'll hear "some people say" and "thought to possibly be forgeries", and it doesn't matter at all if that's true or not, because the intended audience- the aforementioned group of voters- will not have enough or any experience with a Selectric to be able to make an informed decision. They will then base their opinions upon other peoples' opinions, and that will be directly dependent on whether or not they watch or read "mainstream" media.

edit: Lawyers do this too. All that's being done is the introduction of "reasonable doubt".

I'm willing to bet my next paycheck on internet users being more inclined to disbelieve the forgery story. We all know how great the "mainstream" media is at getting all the facts out :eyes:

People forget there are many of us who did quite nicely before computers.

First thing they teach you in typing class.

You don't know FIRST HAND of what you are talking about.

The documents are genuine. Everything you parrot is a lie.

Centering was possible - and EASY.

End of story.

Ever hear of rope a dope?

Looks like we've got quite a few!

As the following story from the Dallas Morning News, which is also mentioned by the Howard Kurtz piece in the Washington Post:

AUSTIN – The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Col. Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Mr. Bush's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

<snip>

Retired Col. Earl Lively, who was director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973 said Col. Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after he left, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Col. Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/091104dnpolguard.117c8.html

I have to say I find the "he bullied them" angle by CBS a bit hard to swallow. But someone could be bullying some people now. Wait and see if anyone changes their story.

He still had the same "connected" friends. That's the whole point of the "favors"....Poppy wasn't active duty at the time either..IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE!

SHEESH

I bet the Guards had their own brand of "Brotherhood" just like Free Masons and any other group that is tight with each other.

"Connected" friends is the right thought!

One of the Killian documents describes a conversation Killian had with Bush. Bush has had a couple of days to deny that the conversation took place and has not done so. That suggests that the memo's description of the conversation is truthful and accurate regardless of whether the memo itself is authentic or was prepared at the time of the conversation. Looking at Bush's other records in light of that conversation, it is pretty clear that Bush disobeyed the direct orders of his commanding officer.

The theories about the authenticity of the documents show that Bush's supporters are quite desperate. Very soon, the Republicans will probably do something dramatic to change the voters' focus. So, it is likely that these documents will be quickly forgotten, especially since Fox, et al. have convinced their audience that the documents are forgeries. The documents, however, are now an indelible part of the historical record. Bush will never be able to change that. The more Bush denies or ignores the Killian documents, the more interesting historians will find them and the more disastrous it will be for Bush's image in history. Bush will be remembered as a liar, now matter what happens to the documents.

Or something worse.

First it was:

"Typewriters in the 1970's didn't have a superscripted 'th'."

Oops...yes they did. Some of the military documents released by Bush and dated 1968 had a superscripted 'th'.

Then it was:

"This font looks like Times New Roman! Times New Roman wasn't around in the 1970's!"

Oops...Times New Roman type has been around since 1931.

*YAWN*

Now we have the "experts" coming out and saying..."it is my professional opinion...blah blah blah" when in reality, they couldn't possibly know if a document was forged without having the original document.

As the attackers get more desperate, the attacks get more shrill.

I've been following this thread carefully on another DU thread. At first I thought the documents were forged, then I thought they weren't after watching CBS, and now I think they are.

See:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/


Joshua Marshall is a leftist.

As Joshua points out, there aren't any experts coming forward and saying "These documents could easily have been produced with a typewritter in the 70's." In fact, there have been no experts to stake out this position except CBS's own expert.

I also read that CBS had four tpewritting experts authenticate the documetns. It seems that CBS's experts were drunk or something.

Also see:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

This second site is a right-wing site. Still, I don't see how you could produce such identical-looking documents.

Here is another pretty convincing article. Second item. I have to say I am with you on this. And I too have been back and forth on this one.

http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/

Wow, are we now supposed to reference PERSONAL (Individual Spin) blogs as journalism in today's world?

Since when do the main media outlets have a monopoly on reporting? Information comes from and opinions formed from many sources.

Actually, those many sources are where the media get many of their stories. Not specifically from blogs, but from people calling in tips. Only in today's world of free communication, people that used to call a newspaper now take to the net and publish themselves.

Of course you need to be careful and judge the source. We have to trust that major media outlets do a bit of vetting.

I believe you should get your information and form your opinions on the news using as many sources as you can find, even and perhaps especially those sources you don't agree with or necessarily trust.

Anyone that trusts only one outlet of news reporting subjecting themselves to mass manipulation.

Do you see it another way? Perhaps I have misunderstood your surprise.

Here. I'll bring him (and you) up to speed:

Authenticity backed on Bush documents

"Philip D. Bouffard, a forensic document examiner in Ohio who has analyzed typewritten samples for 30 years, had expressed suspicions about the documents in an interview with the New York Times published Thursday, one in a wave of similar media reports. But Bouffard told the Globe yesterday that after further study, he now believes the documents could have been prepared on an IBM Selectric Composer typewriter available at the time."

I believe that this is an Executive Model B,
which I have typed hundreds of hours on, making brochures, handouts and posters for student groups at Texas A&M in the early 70's.

The th superscript is on its own key, types as one unit, centering is indeed easy (and quite mechanically exact, because we were stripping those typed words up to be made into printing plates for a Multilith 1250 Offset press), and just never had a problem.

The Executive!A GREAT machine, and very readily available and affordable for memos for banks, schools, and yes, even Guard units!

As I recall, he also believed that Saddam had WMDs and posed a serious "threat" to the U.S. I stopped looking at Talking Points Memo right about then.

For God's sake, why do you people continue to talk like only "experts" could create these documents?

I COULD AND I HAVE!

It's not difficult. It's quite easy, in fact!

I still have my old Smith Corona and can and do produce typewritten documents when the computer won't do - especially to fill out pre-printed forms!

I had a nice collection of "golf balls" & then "wheels" to do the very same thing!

Anyone who was around back in the days before computers could.

There are probably thousands of posters on this very board who could!

MY MOTHER COULD!

But don't listen to the millions of americans who used the damn things.

And don't listen to the millions of americans who marched against the war.

We're only "focus groups".

Here goes...

Who stands to benefit the most from having forged documents out there that are critical of Bush?

The answer? Bush, himself.

People wanted documents from this period.

Suddenly, after months of digging and searching and scrapin g and pressuring, the public has these documents. The media jumped on them and ran with the story.

By putting out documents that are admittedly uncharacteristic of the man who purportedly penned them, and making them obviously recognizable as a forgery, suddenly the veracity of ALL documents has been called into question.

In the mind of the average news purveyor, when they hear of documents discrediting Bush's account of his TANG days they will automatically associate the story with the current forgeries. I have already seen this pan out with members of my family, who when confronted with the content of the documents simply fired back an C&P containing some freeper article talking about superscripted THs and proportional spacing.

The current administration can duck charges that they are forgeries since it would not be in their best interest to release documents that would be critical of Bush on the off chance that they passed muster.

Meanwhile, people will buy into the idea that poorly forging documents critical of Bush is exactly the kind of level the Democrats would stoop to in this political war of attrition.

Thanks to some forged documents, all debate on Bush's military career has had a shadow of doubt cast upon it. I just hope that this doesn't hand the election to Bush.

* assuming they are, in fact, forgeries.

Most of us that have posted as this board for awhile know that ANYTHING posted from the moonie times is EXTREMELY SLANTED. In fact, it will lower your IQ approximately 10 points just picking up the paper.

of these document 'experts' They call themselves "Quetioned Document Examiners" Over the last few years they've been trying to give themselves a psuedo scientifc aura and a group of them have invented a certification process (ie you pass a test and get a piece of paper). This is not a science. You can not get a degree in it.
It is not taught at a university. They get the job by doing a year or so apprenticeship with someone else in the trade. All that said. there is one basic tenet that thay do adhere to. They will not render an opinion as to the authenticity of a document on the basis of an electronically reproduced copy (Fax or PDF). They will not do it and will tell you it is improper to do so. Handwriting, typewriting paper types. You have to work from the original. The Washington Times is quoting someone who is violating the basic standards of the trade.

WHAT YOU MUST BELIEVE

```````````````````````
If the memos are authentic:

You must believe the Texas Air National Guard had a special typewriter that cost over $20,000 in today’s dollars.

You must believe that it was used to write everyday memos.

And that a special (read expensive) font ball was used.

And that the ball was changed to a smaller size (8pt) to create the superscript in the middle of typing the memo and then changed back.

And that the spacing between lines (leading) was set to a highly non-standard (13pt) setting.

And that special measuring was performed to produce centered headers.

And such special measuring was done exactly the same on memos three-months apart.

And that all of the above was performed by a man that didn’t type.

----------------------------------

If the memos are forged:

You must believe that the most common word processing software was used.

And that it was set to one of the 3 or 4 most common fonts.

And that the most common margin settings were used (default.)

And that the most common tab settings were used (again default).

And that the most common line spacings setting were used (yup, it’s default!).

--------------------------------

Those still in doubt about the memos are encouraged to Google the term “Occam's Razor.”

You must believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and that they are republicans.

You must believe there were weapons of mass destruction and that Saddam funded the attacks on 9/11.

You must also believe that Dick Cheney did not sponsor the weapons programs cut that Zell Miller accused Kerry of supporting.

You must also believe no hostages were ever traded for arms.

You must also believe that the Texas Air National Guard routinely takes applicants that score in the bottom 25 percentile and pass them to the top of the list over 350 other better scoring applicants.

You must also believe that 400 billion dollar deficits are good for the country.

I could go on but whats the point in order to believe these are forged you must have an IQ of less than 90

thanks for bringing up Occam's)

I believe that this is an Executive Model B,
which I have typed hundreds of hours on, making brochures, handouts and posters for student groups at Texas A&M in the early 70's.

The th superscript is on its own key, types as one unit, centering is indeed easy (and quite mechanically exact, because we were stripping those typed words up to be made into printing plates for a Multilith 1250 Offset press), and just never had a problem.

The Executive!A GREAT machine, and very readily available and affordable for memos for banks, schools, and yes, even Guard units!

I'm garage saling for one right now, and I do believe that this common, readily availabe, widely used machine is simply the typewriter that was used. That is the simplest explanation that covers all known facts.

Oops, too bad.

The IMB machines were a few hundred dollars - on edit make that a couple hundred - AT THE MOST - I know - I got one for my fledgling firm at the time!

The "golf balls" could be purchased for about $25 - I DID PURCHASED A FEW OF THEM for my fledgling firm at the time!

I changed "balls" in the middle of a document - IT WAS EASY!

I used them right up to about 1986 when I bought my first word processor - because up to then, the damn COMPUTERS cost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, not the typewriters!

Centered headers were accomplished on the CHEAPEST MACHINES - ever hear of a "half space" or "half back space"? Ever use one?

I DID - FOR MANY YEARS!

And I had a draftsperson/secretary who "hunt & pecked".

This was fun!

Finally a topic THAT I HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH!

Enjoy your brief stay - opps - you're already enjoying the worms!

Reverend Sun Yung Piece of Shit

Washington Times. Not even good for wrapping fish in - would stink up the fish.

copies and not original documents.

Eugene P. Hussey spent from 1964 to 1988 in the Secret Service.

Could've given him the requisite training, but also probably gave him the unnecessary agenda.

Golly. Why can't the Times find someone who didn't work for a Bushie?

where is the original poster?

I'd like to ask if this is where he gets his news, and if so, why is he/she littering up this board with it.

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moon owns the wa. times

...partisan, unobjective, biased, bigoted and very obviously hard-core conservative and right-wing.

I'll keep that in mind as I read your posts.

I love it when they crawl out of the woodwork.

I feel like a hungry cat toying with a weak mouse.

This is FUN!

They are simply irresistible.