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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:31 AM
Original message
NYT: Catholic lawyer seeks to get Kerry excommunicated for pro-choice
Letter Supports Anti-Kerry Bid Over Abortion
By PAM BELLUCK

Published: October 19, 2004


BOSTON, Oct. 18 - A canon lawyer seeking to have Senator John Kerry excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church because of his support for abortion rights said on Monday that he had ammunition in the form of a letter issued at the request of a senior Vatican official.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/politics/campaign/19catholic.html
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pope gonna love him for that.
Dothey have dungeons in the Vatican?
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
82. Yes! left over from the inquisitions.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Too bad Kerry doesn't support abortions, only the right to choose
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 12:35 AM by The_Casual_Observer
Therefore, as usual this rw loony is all wet. They are running skerd now!!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
88. Stupid people don't understand that you can be "anti-abortion" AND
"pro-choice" at the same time.

NEWSFLASH: Kerry is personally against abortion! But he against forcing other to believe as he does.

Last time I looked, this was EXACTLY what the Catholic church demands - the the Catholic be against abortion. It doesn't demand that they force their beliefs on everyone else!

It's all about CHOICE - let the WOMAN choose to do with what she wishes with her own body!
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Will all the child molester preists also be excommunicated?
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. no
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 12:52 AM by Catt03
they did not excommunicate them. They FORGAVE them and put them into retirement and pay all their expenses.....except for Cardinal Law; they promoted him to the Vatican.

And just so you know, I'm a Catholic and female and I am royally pissed off. I am writing this hack nut and asking that my name be put on the excommunication list.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. As someone who was indoctrinated into Catholicism as a child...
I am thoroughly ashamed of the Catholic Church today.
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Gaffey Duck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Here here...
Raised a Catholic, became non-religious (like most of immediate family) for years, and I'm now an adherent of the United Church of Canada, as are many New Democrats in Canada, including Manitoba MP Bill Blaikie and Saskatchewan Premier Lorne Calvert, both of whom are ordained UCC ministers. (On the U.S demoninational map, the United Church of Canada would be more or less equivalent to a merger of the United Church of Christ, the United Methodist Church, many (more liberal) Presbyterian churches (There's a more conservative Presbyterian church in my community not affiliated with the UCC), and most independent/non-demoninational churches leaning towards liberalism and the social gospel.)
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Here, in Amerka, unfortunately,
The Catholic Church has been the most liberal until Bush whispered into the senile Pope's ears... and undoubtedly Bush's corporate friends funnelled untold millions into the coffers of the Bishops who put the words in the Pope's mouth.

Unforutately, EVERY Potestant church in Amerika is right wing this year - inluding the Methodists - who have traditionally been liberal. I can't believe the indoctrination going on at a Medodist Church in Escondido where my wife's relatives of a right-wing Navy lifer has raised his wife and children to be robots of the right wing.

It sickens me. I don't entirely agree with George Carlin and Bill Maher that all religion is nothing but "superstion", but organized religion pretty much fills their bill.

I guess I'm just an independent "spiritualist" who believes there's a divine force out there behind the Universe, who doesn't give a damn about who wins a sports competition. And who doesn't subscribe to any "organized religion" any more.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Our tax dollars, actually.
They're taking our, yours and mine, tax dollars.
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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
41. I don't quite agree with you that it's that grim in the RCC or elsewhere.
Granted, the religious right has been extremely noisy for several decades here, and of course they have their humble -- oops, sorry, he's not -- and loyal serpent -- ooh, I mean servant -- George W. Bush at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. But the pope has not trimmed his doctrine to fit the Bush world view, even if the Bush administration has bent over backwards to woo the church.

For example, in the run-up to the Iraq war, at a time when Bush would not receive members of the Congressional Black Caucus or the National Council of Churches to discuss their dissenting views on the war, he did receive the Vatican representative. I thought that was pretty cynical -- slam the door on people who aren't your base anyway, but let the Catholics in so that you may pick up a few votes and look cozy with them.

Anyway, I'm Catholic, and the church I attend makes very clear that it is not to endorse a candidate or party. And the liberal social justice stance is very much alive in the Catholic Church. Yes, there are right-wing churches and so forth, but I don't think we can view the RCC as co-opted by Bushie-poo and his ilk, not at the moment.
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Lizzie Borden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
72. Not every Protestant church is right wing.
The United Church of Christ, Presbyterian,Quakers, Unitarians are definately left-leaning. Even most Methodists aren't really right-wing unless they are in the south. You just can't lump them all together. When you do, you are totally innaccurate.
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Grins Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
36. God, me too!

Just a pathetic shell of what they used to be. Four years of a Jesuit education - wasted! All because they refuse to have the moral courage to speak out.
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despairing optimist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
89. There is hope. I survived 13 years of Catholic school
and am in recovery. It takes a lifetime, but it's worth it. You get to exorcise *them*.

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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Sign me up
Add my name to that list, willya?
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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. catto3: me too
As a Catholic, I am so angered by all this that I don't know what to do. It is not the way I was brought into the church, in fact, it is counter to how I was brought into the church. I was in my twenties when I became a Catholic - it was awesome -- Paulist Brothers, very liberal -- but all is lost now.

There will need to be a new religious group for Catholics whose church has abandoned them. I bet there is one already. I'll sign up.

s_m

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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
83. And give them bi-yearly vacations to Thailand!
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
86. they'll have to excommunicate a lot more people than that

a majority of American Catholics are pro-choice.
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oldhat Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. How about people who execute retarded people?
Does the Church have an opinion on that?

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
63. When I saw Catholic and Lawyer

I thought it was about a trial for all those Priest that harmed innocent children.
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njdemocrat106 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
7. You think Rove's paying this guy?
For the record, I consider myself a "Kerry" Catholic. Yes, I am personally against abortion, but as the Senator said, it's his duty to uphold the law of the land.
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FightingIrish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
8. That would pretty much do it for Catholics in politics.
Voters would be certain that a Catholic candidate's religion would trump the constitution and honest Catholic candidates would risk excommunication for adhering to the constitution.
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JolietDem Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Wait a minute
If pro-choice Catholics are getting thrown out on their asses by the Church, when will Ahnuld get the boot? George Pataki? RUDY GUILIANI? TOM RIDGE?

The hypocrisy behind this is amazing. Apparently pro-choice Republicans get a special pass I guess because supporting the war in Iraq was such a Christian thing to do...grrrr
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. Also pro-death penalty and pro-war repubs
Notice that they're not under fire either.


Welcome to DU! :-)
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
87. Sadly - and I'm not defending the Church here
only repeating their positions. The Catholic Church believes abortion (and artificial birth control) are "intrinsically evil". It does not feel that war or the death penalty are but that there might be times both of these are necessary.

Go figure.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
68. Yes, the blindness and hypocrisy are stunning
And as a Catholic, it's getting pretty damned hard for me to take.

I'm really beginning to understand why people had such reservations about Al Smith and John Kennedy, too.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. yes, but we have the A-bomb in this department

The Robin Lowman Garner story. As told by Larry Flynt and her friends.
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cyr330 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
14. And the Death Penalty?
I have heard NOT one threat to excommunicate any Catholic asshole who is pro-death penalty. In the eyes of "his holiness", that aged reptile, John Paul II, the death penalty is just as sinful as having an abortion. It seems that these loons are picking and choosing what they THINK will give them traction in an election year. Fuck them.
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fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. That's not true.
The Church does not equate the death penalty with abortion. They are not "equal in sinfulness." The death penalty was supported by the Church for centuries. They only recently changed their views, largely because they say that modern methods of incarceration make the death penalty moot. They have always been pretty much unambiguous about abortion, though I know of no one in the history of the church who was excommunicated for having an abortion, much less supporting the right to have one. This is somewhat new and I think driven by politics and not by faith.

Having said that, I think the Church has completely lost whatever moral authority they had with this plague of child molesting priests and the effort to protect them.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
37. As to Abortion and Catholic Doctrine
Aborting has only been considered "Murder" (and thus a violation of the ten Commandments since Vatican I in 1869. Prior to Vatican I the Catholic Rule as to abortion was that abortion was a sin but not a mortal sin (NOT a violation of the Ten Commandants). One of the Doctrine of Catholicism is Ex-Communication can only be for a violation of Mortal Sins NOT Venal sins.

As to the Catholic Doctrine prior to 1869 look at Roe vs Wade for the Majority in Roe adopted the English Common Law as to abortion as being constitutionally protected. The English Common Law adopted its abortion rules directly from Catholic Dogma of the Middle ages (i.e. Catholic Dogma till 1869).

Vatican I of the 1860s (Unlike Vatican II of the 1960s which tried to undo some of the damages of Vatican I) is one of the worse Council of Bishops ever. Vatican I was driven by the lost of the Papal States do to Italian Unification and many of today's problems within the Church can be traced to Vatican I. The Pope during Vatican I wanted to punished people for permitting the lost of the Papal States AND strengthen the Papacy (given the weakening of the Papacy do to the lost of the Papal States).

As I said Vatican II undid many of the problems caused by Vatican I but some of the problems remained (Including Abortion). The better policy would be a return to the Church's "Medieval" Policy as to abortion which was much more progressive and took into consideration the fallacy of people than its "Modern" Policy on Abortion.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
15. That'll mean 2/3rds of Catholics being ex-communicated, as well
But this so-called "religious" man only cares about his partisan POLITICS.

Isn't HE in for a rude awakening come Judgement Day!
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
17. Don't worry, Kerry. Excom's have more fun.
As luck would have it this week I stumbled upon the riotously funny 1970s satirical comic, "Binky Brown Meets The Holy Virgin Mary," recently reissued with a forward by Art Spiegelman. Highly recommended to anyone who's happily hosanna-free.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
18. Catholic lawyer? Is that an oxymoron?
Well, maybe, not anymore.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. Do they really want to do that to the United States' future president?
Seems kind of stupid to me.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
22. I have to register to see full article, Would be interested to know
the name of the canon lawyer.... I wonder who he is voting for and if he contributed to Bush, my guess would be yes.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. here ya go:
The lawyer, Marc Balestrieri of Los Angeles, who heads a conservative Catholic nonprofit organization called De Fide, also said that, based on the letter, he would now seek to have four other Catholic politicians excommunicated: Senators Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, Tom Harkin of Iowa, Susan Collins of Maine, and Mario M. Cuomo, the former governor of New York.

"Senator Kerry, and all pro-choice Catholic politicians, who publicly call themselves Catholic yet who blatantly violate canon law by continuing to profess heresy and receive Holy Communion, must publicly reject their abortion advocacy for the sake of their own souls, and the others they have scandalized," Mr. Balestrieri said in a statement. "They have been excommunicated."

Only Ms. Collins is not a Democrat.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thank you I am looking up and will post my findings.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. From the article:
"The lawyer, Marc Balestrieri of Los Angeles, who heads a conservative Catholic nonprofit organization called De Fide, also said that, based on the letter, he would now seek to have four other Catholic politicians excommunicated: Senators Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, Tom Harkin of Iowa, Susan Collins of Maine, and Mario M. Cuomo, the former governor of New York".
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Thanks, I will be looking up this info.... Thanks again
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William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
23. Sorry, but i cant help it.........
No one expects the Spanish inquisition!




Just a visual that came to me as i read the headline hehehehehe.....
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
27. Here's this guy's website:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. Right-wing crackpot all the way
Catholics come in all sizes, shapes, colors, and political philosophies.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
49. Send them an email!
secretary@defide.com

And remember: guilt works well with Catholics.

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Mizmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
29. As if the church can afford to lose more members
Many have stopped attending since the molestation scandal. This isn't going to help their attendance very much.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. What an idiot.
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 07:27 AM by are_we_united_yet
The Catholic church is embroiled in controversy and plagued with financial issues. They don't need to waste any time or resources with this prick lawyer.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
31. Canon Lawyer is a Fuax News dog, here is link to DEFIDE org.
http://defide.com/

Also, this link was posted on the Faux News website a while back.

Here is an interesting article on Marc's position in the Catholic Church.... NOTE this link is from a Repub. site

http://www.envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/Detail.asp?BlogID=1933
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
50. thanks for the great link!
Very interesting article, that. Find it hard to believe that gen-x's support this guy over boomers. Kids don't remember what it was like before Roe.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
32. IMO
religion (even the non fundamentalist churches) in the US is seeing this as its one chance to have a Supreme Court in its favor concerning abortion rights. They don't see the dismanteling of the constitution and the Bill Of Rights that is occuring. They don't adequately see the dangers in current foreign policy. They have tunnel vision. For these things, I can't go back to religion. My faith in it is gone now. They are an opposing political force in my eyes. I will never forgive nor forget.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. I'm going to be a minister & I support Roe
And so do the majority of my minister and will-be minister friends. Don't give up on faith just because a vocal minority of buttheads have gone on a rampage.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
33. This tells a tale....
"As this criminal case is unprecedented both historically and procedurally under the new Code of Canon Law of 1983, all Catholic and Protestant Christians, even the non-baptized, may, and are invited to join this class-action suit."

And more to the point -

"It is hoped that the faithful and public at large will support the efforts of DE FIDE by participating in the action and contributing to the State of California Tax-Exempt Association."

I want to *convert* to Catholicism so that I can be turfed out. Bastards.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
34. in other news... Mary Cheney revealed to be paid 'Lesbian Liaison'
It's true, she was Coors' Gay and 'Lesbian Liaison' for marketing affairs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43375-2004Oct18.html

Before she became a public enigma, she used to earn a nice living as a corporate liaison for Coors Brewing Co., going into gay bars (sometimes with Mr. International Leather 1999, who would wear his chaps and straps, according to the Advocate) to convince everyone that Coors had changed. For a long time, gay people were implored by activists to boycott Coors, based on its funding of anti-gay causes. Mary got in there, talked about Coors's new domestic-partner benefits for employees. Mary said, here, try a Coors. She was good at that, and the boycott wafted away, and you didn't see as much Bud Light in gay bars.
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wickywom Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
35. The corruption is grotesque...
We found out the new priest at my hubbies church was embezzling hundreds of thousands of dollars from the parish..
not because the church told us but because a lady my husband worked for in another part of the state mentioned that priest had stolen that much money from her church to take his friends on elaborate vacations...

My husbands church sent everyone in the congregation a letter saying the priest in question would be leaving for alcohol rehab ... in their next letter they mentioned that alot of money had been misplaced and that the state diocese would be giving the church several hundreds of thousands of dollars...

We've left the church completely.
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AFSCME girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
52. Hi wickywom!
I am leaving the Catholic church as well. Although I love the beauty of the mass itself, the hypocrisy and corruption is more than I can take anymore. I have been attending a Lutheran church (ELCA Synod) with my best friend and her family. I have found that I feel much more comfortable at this church and the service is somewhat similar to a Catholic mass.
:hi:
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Try Episcopalian service
Very Catholic-lic, but with women (and now in US, gays) allowed to preach the word.
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AFSCME girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Thanks, jinuu!
I will keep that in mind. I have been to Episcopal churches in the past, but I was not ready to make the switch at the time. I may lurk at one of those for awhile as well! :hi:
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wickywom Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
56.  Hi back.. (I've been lurking for a few years) ..
I am considering joining the Episcopal church.. really I'm pretty much a deist , but
would like to have my daughter baptized to ease the suffering of many family members ..
Besides it's the only church in my town that openly and actively assists the homeless... and that is what I personally, look for in a church.. I like the open gay policy as well...
I suspect their membership rosters will explode soon if the Fundy catholics keep it up.

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AFSCME girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Yes, I agree about the
membership rosters. Here in Michigan, Cardinal Maida is undertaking a large restructuring plan for the area Catholic churches due to the declining number of priests.......Another DUer also suggested the Episcopal Church. I, too, like their policies toward gays and women.

:thumbsup:
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
73. Never heard of a priest, but a number of ministers engaged in that
sort of chicanery. Had four different episodes in our area over the year. Perps all Protestant ministers. Sadly, the congregations were poor or working-class folk who could ill afford being bilked.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
38. Two Catholic posts in one day
And here I thought DU had turned over a new leaf.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
40. our 'great uniter' strikes again
The Christian right. in their successful attempt to take over the Republican party, started this shit with Protestant churches of all stripes 25 years ago.

Now that a Catholic is running, we see the Bush campaign attempting to turn Catholic against Catholic, asking for church directories and making sure that the Bishops in their pocket get maximum publicity.

When are people going to wake up to their shit, and STOP allowing the Republican party to divide us as a people in their places of WORSHIP? It's an absolute sickness they've created in our society.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
42. Did this lawyer support the invasion?
If so, then shouldn't he be excommunicated? After all, didn't the pope declare the invasion immoral?
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
43. Surely we can find more
When burning witches, its more fun if you burn more than one at a time. Just think, though, John Kerry is the ONLY person this applies to. The one true church will be sanctified by his blood and holy again, save for a few pedophiles. Remember, this is brought to you by the sponsors of the inquisition.
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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
44. please note...
these are only hangers on in the church.

More than half of us Catholics are pro-choice. This will backfire. Watch and see. Remember most of the Catholic politicians in Europe are pro-choice as well.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
45. What About Arnie, Pataki, Guliani? All Pro Choice...
EX COMMUNICATE THEM ALL, THEN...
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topgun77 Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. My name is Eric and I'm a Pro-Choice Catholic
Listen... this issue is so beaten to death its not even funny. Its not like people are going out and getting knocked up to have abortions. Its all between God, the individual, and the doctor. These republipukes like to control people, they are so power hungry.
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Amigust Donating Member (568 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
77. No, it only applies to Democratic presidential contenders.
eom
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TexasTwister Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. This is an organized right wing effort to embarrass Kerry
This memo has been debunked by the Vatican. It is a well financed sleazy lawyer seeking an opinion from someone in the Catholic church that has no authority. The embarassment of Kerry is its sole purpose. This a typical Karl Rove scheme. Visit www.catholic.com and see what we are up against. Join their political forums and hammer their lies about Kerry. This has got to be stopped.

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.

"I have no relationship to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ... and the letter that I wrote to Balestrieri was purely private," he told CNS Oct. 19. "I wrote it as a private theologian, not with any authority. It has no authority whatsoever.

"Its worth is disputable," he added.

One Vatican official contacted by CNS said no church official had seriously approached the point of declaring Kerry a heretic.

"No, Kerry is not a heretic," he said.





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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
47. How many people did Jesus excommunicate???? n/t
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Tesibria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
71. Jesus took the whip to the KRs and GWBs of the time
.... i.e., the people who traded on religion for personal financial and power gains ... no?
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young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
48. How about those who follow birth control?
I believe that is also against "the rules".
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
54. I think I will convert to Catholicism
just so I can be ex-communicated with the rest of you!

What an AssHat this guy is...

RL
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Mister K Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
57. Vatican denies it responded to lawyer seeking Kerry's excommunication
Edited on Wed Oct-20-04 10:59 AM by Skinner
Vatican denies it responded to lawyer seeking Kerry's excommunication
By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- An official at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said a California canon lawyer seeking a formal decree of heresy against Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, Democratic presidential nominee, has misrepresented his contact with the Vatican office.

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.

"His claim that the private letter he received from (Dominican) Father Basil Cole is a Vatican response is completely without merit," Father DiNoia told Catholic News Service Oct. 19, declining to discuss the matter further.

Balestrieri is the head of De Fide, described on its Web site as an organization created "to deal with the burgeoning scandal of Catholic politicians supporting the 'right to choose' murder."

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0405749.htm
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. I'm surprised this is even an issue
It's complete and utter bullshit.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. thanks for the update
I thought it sounded like so much BS b/c I thought I remembered hearing something about this in seminary about 6 months ago, that the Pope said if Kerry couldn't be given communion, then neither could any one who supported the Iraq War/occupation because that action was immoral. But I couldn't find the article again, and besides, people gotta know how religion is being used as a weapon instead of an instrument for peace (as it should be).

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Lilli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
59. Unless they are attempting to start some anti-catholic sentiment
I think its pointless anyway.

The church wont excom him unless he actually performs or assists with an abortion. And I'm thinking thats not too likely. :)
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I could only see it happen if they interpret "assist" in ...
an extremely broad manner
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takumi Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
62. Where Was This Lawyer When All those Priests Were *ing All Those Boys?
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
66. Can You Say Petty?
What a silly thing for this dumb ass to engage in. This is so prevalent among rightwingers these days. They are obsessed over single issues. Very irrational people who do not weigh things out.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
67. What about Arnold?
He came out in support of stem cell funding today.

That merits a good old excommunication, too, dang it.
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davhill Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. What about Tom Ridge
He's Catholic, pro-choice too.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. There's a lot of 'em like Ridge....
Edited on Tue Oct-19-04 08:17 PM by AngryOldDem
...that the Church conveniently ignores.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
69. Oh this will go over in Chicago like a lead balloon....
Empty the churches... see the old ladies in the giant empty churches

Is there any relationship between the Nazarene and today's church?

Whose running this church? Satan?
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
70. Opus Dei strikes again! NT
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
74. When all is said and done
the churches are going to get the blame for this mess. That is why so many of us have stopped going to churches of our choice. They have taken political stances that hurt a good share of the people and expect us to set back and thank them. Don't get me wrong - we are all Christians by both faith and works - we just cannot stand the political nature the churches have taken on (kind of like the Sinclair Media Group). As for excommunication - I have been at home taking care of my disabled daughter - the minister used to bring me communion at home UNTIL I let him know how angry I was at the church for helping to elect bushie. I have not seen him since. So much for forgiveness and caring. So much for doing God's Work. They are supposed to be winning souls and instead they are registering voters and turning even their own members away.
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TexasTwister Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
78. DU Please Help Catholics For Kerry
 Need help attacking a threat with the same vigor as Sinclair.

 I understand Catholics make up 1/4 of the vote. I,as a
Catholic, am extremely offended and upset with the smear
tactics of a site www.catholic.com and their Voters Guide for
Catholics. It has distributed millions of copies of a guide
that describe:
 THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES -
Abortion,Euthanasia,Embryonic Stem Cell Research,Human Cloning
and Homosexual Marriage.

According to them, these are the only issues a Catholic must
use to choose a candidate. Social values, war and public
execution policies of the candidate can't be considered. I
have been a Catholic a long time and never heard of such
nonsense. A true Catholic using all Catholic values to judge
the candidate could easily determine that John Kerry , a
Catholic, would be the no brain choice over the demon seed
Bush.  I think Bush is one of the most evil leaders in history
if you haven't guessed. This is a right wing effort which I
seriously doubt are actual Catholics. The website
www.catholic.com has a politics forum that is filled with
Kerry hate and nonsense. Any attempt, short of calling Bush a
saint and Kerry the devil is not tolerated. It is met with
vicious and nasty attacks no Catholic I ever met would do. I
expressed my opinions and posted every rebuttal I could and
was cheered by many in private messages but was suspended
anyway after about 4 days. It is time a army of real Catholics
and all others seeking justice in this world from the lies and
deceit of the right wing even the score and promote the truth
about John Kerry. Please join this forum and attack in
PoliticsII. These people go as far as saying a vote for Kerry
is a mortal sin. Polls have shown Kerry has a 4% lead among
Catholic voters. I think there is a lot of room for
improvement here and could be a deciding factor. Any other
ideas to neutralize this organized Republican effort would be
greatly appreciated.   
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Vatican is against Iraq invasion and occupation, and also
death penalty for minors
death penalty for retarded people
divorce
birth control
worker exploitation

I'm not a Catholic, but I have been influenced by Catholic Social teachings. I'm sure there's some catechism on the subject.

And the Vatican website is pretty easy to navigate. I'm sure you can find Papal announcements there condeming the above list--many of which conservatives support.

Also, you might hook up with Catholics for Choice, The Catholic Labor Network, and Pax Christi to see how they deal with conservative Catholics.

These are all things that can be used to make an argument for Kerry and truly compassionate Christianity. And using guilt never hurts with Catholics, either!

Good luck!
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TexasTwister Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
80. Could This be an October Surprise For Kerry
This memo has been debunked by the Vatican. It is a well financed sleazy lawyer seeking an opinion from someone in the Catholic church that has no authority. The embarassment of Kerry is its sole purpose. This a typical Karl Rove scheme. Visit www.catholic.com and see what we are up against. Join their political forums and hammer their lies about Kerry. This has got to be stopped.

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.

"I have no relationship to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ... and the letter that I wrote to Balestrieri was purely private," he told CNS Oct. 19. "I wrote it as a private theologian, not with any authority. It has no authority whatsoever.

"Its worth is disputable," he added.

One Vatican official contacted by CNS said no church official had seriously approached the point of declaring Kerry a heretic.

"No, Kerry is not a heretic," he said.


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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Sinclair was the suprise, but it surprised them back. eom
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-19-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
81. "Guilty of heresy!?" As in saying the world is not flat! Damn heretics!
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