NYT: The Democrats: A Stunned Party Looks to the Internal Debate Ahead

THE DEMOCRATS
A Stunned Party Looks to the Internal Debate Ahead
By JAMES BENNET

Published: November 4, 2004


WASHINGTON, Nov. 3 - Democrats began turning Wednesday to the fight that some in the party fear they wage most consistently: with one another.

Democratic politicians and operatives said the defeat of Senator John Kerry and the loss of seats in the House and the Senate were likely to fan internal debate over everything from overarching ideology to on-the-ground tactics to the qualities to look for in a candidate.

The recriminations began even before Mr. Kerry's concession, with leaks to the news media about which Democrats had given what valuable but unheeded advice to him. While condemning any acrimony, several Democratic leaders said the party would benefit from a substantive internal debate....

***

Douglas Sosnik, who was a counselor to President Bill Clinton and who advised Mr. Kerry, said that contrary to the aftermath of the muddled 2000 election results, the Democrats now needed to accept that they had become - "no ifs, ands or buts" - the opposition party....

***

"We've got to build the party back up from the ground up,'' he said. "That's going to require some bloodletting, and a rethinking on substance and style."...


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/politics/campaign/04dems.html

Who were the idiots who didn't pay attention to Bev Harris????

Even we...who made noise...didn't make enough.

be held, all right. What the hell is going on inside the voting machines? None of the big name Dems seemingly has the balls to ask that question.

When Michael Moore announced that he was showing up in Florida with photographers to moniter the polls, I thought, how naive. The fraud is happening electronically in the paper-trailless machines.

I'll agree that many millions of Americans are moronic dumbshits -- but not enough to swing this thing to the chimp -- especially in the two states where it mattered most.

I am firmly convinced that if the votes had been fairly cast and accurately counted, Gore would have won in 2000 and Kerry would have won in 2004 (except that it would have been Gore winning reelection in 2004).

I absolutely refuse to allow the Republicans to trick me into fighting with my fellow Democrats.

All our fingers need to be pointed right at electronic voting. Period.

screamed about the damned voting machines without a paper trail and who ignored all of us and refused to even discuss it! Are they in cohoots with the Pubs? What the hell is going on in this country?

We've been too polite to call it as we've known it -- the corruption of religion and faith by the moneychangers in the temple.

I don't think this is a task for the party. It's a cultural thing, and it's going to have to confronted by cultural methods, not political methods.

Otherwise, it will be like fighting a cancer with antibiotics.

--bkl

they are a minority with ultra right (read libertarian) billions behind them.

It's all about the bejamins, the fundie right is just the facade they hide behind.

Sorry, it's a big factor but it's not the only one.

With Freud, everything was sex; with Marx, everything was economics. Both erred in that they were looking for universal explanations for complex systems.

Ideological fanaticism is a major part of the modern Republican party and Conservative movement. Yes, money plays a large part, a very large part; but religion gets the dirty work done on the cheap.

--bkl

was that handed out during the campaign? please, please,please tell me that is a joke - sick as it is.

the internal debate should be overcoming fraud and corruption.

HOUSE: New 7R, 6D. Cynthia McKinney
overwhelmingly won back the seat she held for a
decade before being upset in 2002 Democratic
primary.

Day of the Dead: The Haunting of
the White House
By Cynthia McKinney and Catherine Austin
Fitts
Nov 2, 2004, 07:46

Something is rising from the ashes of September 11: the
spectre of questions that will haunt our country until answered.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_13213.shtml


Published: Nov 1, 2004
http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_14882.shtml
Grand jury investigation?
On behalf of New York State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, Chief Investigator William Casey
accepted a Complaint and Petition from a group of New York City citizens including 9/11 family
members, survivors and a Ground Zero triage physician. The Complaint demands that the AG open
a criminal inquiry and/or grand jury investigation into the many still unsolved crimes of September
11, 2001 over which he has jurisdiction.



Marsh opens $230m fund to appease Eliot Spitzer

By Simon English in New York (Filed: 03/11/2004)

Marsh & McLennan, the broker at the centre of America's
insurance scandal, is setting up a $230m compensation
fund as it tries to rescue its tarnished image.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2004/11/03/cnmarsh03.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2004/11/03/ixcity.html

At least we have ONE voice who has been unafraid to confront the truth and to call the opposition on their lies.

Looks like Al Sharpton may be the only presidential candidate who won anything this year. He will have his own TV show similar to that of the Donald - Trump, that is. Congratulations, Rev. Al. I have always been in your corner.

is get rid of the New Democrats. They are not democrats, they are limp wristed republicans. We need Howard Dean as the new head of the DNC. We need someone who can put our ideals together and Howard is the man

we must get rid of the cancer that is killing this party. The DLC and the "New" (read: corporatist) Democrats needs to go. We've tried it their way for the past 3 elections and we have lost every single one. Time for change. Time to destroy the DLC.

Bugger the DLC.

let the DLC go back to the republikkkan party where they belong. The repukes are the ones that need to be "centrified"

It was the DLC that told Democrats to stand alongside Bush in the Rose Garden to endorse his war on Iraq.

nice job in stating the game plan at the local level.

Keep the republicans from stealing the elctions.

n/t

Or anyone else who feels that this topic needs further analysis and added ideas of how we can begin to make a definite difference in the election process.

If you notice, I do not yet have enough posts to qualify me to start a thread, so if you think this is something that deserves to be posted as its own thread, please be kind enough to start that thread it for us. I will certainly appreciate it.

I left a message for you at the new thread.

On the ACTIVIST/EVENTS board there is a huge list of click through email addresses for nearly every major news outlet in America including the top "journalists" (Dare I even call them this respected title?)I sent emails to Wolf Blitzer, CNN News, ABC, CBS, Ted Koppel, Al Franken, Randi Rhodes and more that I cannot remember right now.


I simply put "NO MANDATE" in the subject line
I composed a short message:

To:_______________
George Bush received 58 million votes. John Kerry received 56 million votes. This does not constitute a MANDATE for George Bush

A proud liberal Democrat
(My real name)

I copied the message and pasted it onto about ten different media email forms changing only the name of the person or program that I was contacting.

We have to start SOMEWHERE and as much as I enjoy posting and sharing my outrage with other like thinkers, only some DIRECT ACTION will let the media know that we are not going to take this lying down. Take just a few minutes from posting here and send a couple of emails. They need to hear from us.

It is apparent that we have NO LEADERSHIP in the Democratic Party at this time. I have not been contacted by any of the fundraisers that filled my mailbox daily for the past six months since Tuesday. Are they off vacationing or what? So, without leadership, we have to grab hold of the rudder or this ship will sink faster than a stone.

I would like to suggest that we form Democratic reading or book clubs around the country. We could also exchange political books with each other and set up small, private lending libraries in Democratic clubs.

Your term New Democrats is too broad. I agree about the Liebermanns and other DLC freaks, but the New Democrat Network is cool.

Check out http://www.newdem.org/

sure, keep an office there to be near the action. But move the headquarters to St. Louis or Chicago or Kansas City or Detroit or....
I don't care where, some midwestern city, though. That would be a first step in starting to break down the "entrenched beltway" image and give an impression of trying to get closer to the people in flyover country.

With modern technology there's no need to be headquarterd in DC.

I think Chicago is the obvious choice for new thinking.

Instead of pissing about how the "rednecks" in the red states cost YOU the election (Hello! What am I? Chopped liver?)
The DNC needs to take a hard look at itself. Come into the "red states",and build viable organizations, don't just sit in your Starbucks, sucking your Ventis and pissing about how redneck farmers are syphoning off your tax dollars.

Terry McAuliffe and Joe Hogsett need to become un-employed.

The midwest is red (read: rural)
The southwest is red (read: catholic-heavy)

Hardly "redneck" by definition

They bash because it's a convenient scapegoat (and probably because they have personal prejudices against people of faith to begin with) but it goes much deeper than that.

I stand with you southern DUers and know it CAN'T be easy. Our state just turned red (NM) and I am mystified.

:hug:

Save some of that polling money to pay for people to go out to diners, shopping centers, fast-food joints, churches, vets halls, gun shows, county fairs, etc., sidestep the foamers and talk to real people out there. Figure out how to convince them that we're actually on their side. Get the foot in the door and sell sell sell Democratic family values.

DC was very blue - 90%
Utah and Wyoming are pretty red.
The rest are all within 70%/30% - mostly inside 60%/40% and many
within 55/45



I suggest you check out the exit polls where they ask whether you are voting for your candidate or against his opponent. 1/3+ of the Kerry vote was a "not Bush" vote. His Biggest issue win was "would promote change". People needed something more concrete to vote for and 'moral values' needed to be re-defined to include hypocrisy, civilian casualties, defending the weak (SocSec and Deficits) and monopolies instead of just 'shove those gays back in their closets'.

Pelosi was off to a good start talking about how Bush and Rove had abused the religious ideals of people making the election about defense of marriage but using it as a mandate for war, murder and attacks on seniors and lower classes. She said it well without being insulting.

I can see that Bush's statement "you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" had nothing to do with the war or terrorism. I think he really meant "you're either saved, or you're not saved." Unfortunately, the soul searching the dems are now talking about will result in running a christian candidate in the next election.

Now I can see the set up with Clinton. Hammer away at his pagan ways for 8 years, use the christian crusade to gather voters, and run on morals. It's genius, but also so facist.

Those of us who do not fall under the christian umbrella are not being represented. We are the unsaved.

I think you're right. That does explain a lot.

ought to do the trick

this issue coming out today--author interviewed this am on Today Show.

I do subscribe to Newsweek, so I'll be anticipating the article.

In their quest to divie up the spoils of their "mandate" the Republicans will self destruct. The fundies will win out driving the rest of them into breakaway parties.

It will be the Jeb Bush/Rick Santorum wing of party against the McCain/Guiliani/Schwartzeneger wing of the party. First fight may come if Bush tries to appoint a moderate to the SCOTUS. Pass the popcorn, please.

I am a New Yorker who absolutely detests Guiliani. Talk about your Hitler-wannabes! A philanderer, a racist, a liar,a wife-abuser, a man whose first wife was his own cousin. Married thrice, yet the Catholic church does not condemn him and he is a Catholic. No word about not offering HIM communion.

If he and Schwarzenegger ever take office together, welcome to the United States of Nazism.

Remember Abner Louima and the 'Guilliani Time!" cops?

The park outside city hall that was converted into a police fortress?

He'd give companies huge tax breaks to not move jobs outside the city and I can't think of one such case that hasn't resulted in fewer jobs instead of more.

Now that the news is making the rounds that Ashcroft may leave even before the start of the second term, I would bet that Guiliani is vying for the job. That's all America needs! Mafia Sperm heading up the Justice Department.

read somewhere tonight

I really don't think Rudy could work with Cheney, Rove, et all because he is too much of a dictator himself. It would be too hard for him to take a backseat to anyone else. His ego is monumental.

Powell is willing to suck it up and let them destroy his credibility but Rudy would cause a war right in the Oval office if he thought someone was in his way or taking advantage of or using him when he didn't want to be used.

" the Democrats now needed to accept that they had become - "no ifs, ands or buts" - the opposition party...."

It only now occurs them. ALERT THE FRIGGING MEDIA!

Or is this a slight admission that the whole Republican-lite, I support the President crap was the wrong thing to do?!?

That is what we must do, and recognize that that may not win in large swaths of the company for a long time. We need to focus on strengthening control in cities and states where we are in power, getting rid of all republican mayors and governors of otherwise democratic cities and states, and enacting policies that work for all people. June Jordan has written that "freedom is indivisible, and either we are fighting for freedom or you are fighting for your self interests and I am fighting for mine." Democrats must stand for freedom to love who you will, freedom to choose what to do with your body, freedom to be well educated as far as your dreams and will take you, freedom live in health, age in grace, and die with dignity, freedom to work for family supporting wages, freedom be deeply religious, atheist, or anything in between. We must stand for equal justice under the law or fall into the pit of no justice and uneven law. We must stand for equal opportunity and be unafraid to say loudly that the wounds of centuries of bigotry have not been healed by decades of modest reform.

We don't need to spend one moment figuring out how to better appeal to theocrats, bigots, and the greedy. We need to stand firm for freedom, justice, and opportunity and know that we are on the right side and it will eventually be the winning side. As Dr. King said "the arc of history is long, but it is bent towards justice".

I feel it's a mistake to attempt toe to toe discourse with reactionaries. They've won by persitently, over two decades, redefining the terms of discourse, reframing the political dialectic, and eliminating rules of intelligent discourse in favor of emotionalism and crypto-mystical nationalism. We can't attempt to engage them on their turf. We must have a clearly worded, morally compelling, and highly defined map of the world that will force them to engage on terms that are irrefutably in the interest of all human beings -- American or other. We must take the high ground. If they want values, then we might take a some plays from the true moral high-ground that leaders such as MLK and Dennis Kukinich have reached for.

The right wing relies on specious arguments and emotional manipulation. We must force the people of this country to raise the level of discourse. We must develop strategies to persude them to recognize the full negative impact of the demogoguery that's replaced to political debate. And we must begin to think about raising the stakes and organizing internationally with those everywhere who are in sympathy with a progressive vision of the world's future.

What are our values? Can we define them? Are we willing to go to the mat for them?

Playing their game only enables them.

The moderates in America would be shocked if they heard what is really going on with the right. I've never seen the issue even raised. After 16 years of Limbaugh lying, I've never seen one negative news story about him on the mainstream media.

Ignoring these people lets them succeed. Wingers are afraid of exposure and terrible on defense.

The other day Limbaugh was saying that some people in America should not be allowed to vote. I wonder what the rest of the country would think about that.

It reminds me that I have not thought in the last few days about the thesis of "The Emerging Democratic Majority." I still believe there may be hope in that forecast of demographic change, based on ethnicity, economics, lifestyle, and a new generation, that could make this capture of near absolute power by the Right the last hurrah of those raging (as religious radicals are around the globe) against the modern world.

on winning low level offices currently held by repukes, just like they did in the '70s when liberalism had the upper hand.

ASAP. He has led us to three straight defeats.

Who hired this man - the mealy-mouthed DLC? With friends like this we don't need enemies. He, Beth Cahill and Joe, "Never won a damn battle in his life" Lockhart should only be allowed to vote and never again to lead anything remotely connected with the Democratic Party.

Dear Mr. Kerry,

i am so glad that you had such a nice talk with Mr. Bush; it really makes me feel better that he is now going to "try to heal the divisions". i don't believe that for a moment and neither should you; just look at his record i am sure he will steam roll you and the democrats for the next four years as he has done in the past four. when are you going to become a real opposition party ??? if you and other democrats had the balls to confront him and his atrocious record and his outright lying perhaps you would have found yourself as the president today. i am just awaiting Mr. Bush's "Army of Compassion" (really "Army of Bigotry") to show up at my door and fill my life with love and understanding.

but he won't put that in writing.

???

if the whole thing was just a part of a Skull & Bones set up with one frat brother falling on the sword for another. I will always wonder if McAuliffe was a part of the scheme. I will just always wonder....
But like John F. Kennedy's assassination, we will never know....

National Dems should study the success of the Illinois Dem Party to understand where it should position itself. Illinois, my birth state, was a Republican state for decades and within the last couple elections it has turned Dem. If Illinois, the Land of Lincoln, can turn Dem, why can't Dems win on the national level?

of a model than anywhere else. Demographics can play a huge role.

You can't win the IL Governorship and senate seats on Chicago's vote alone. You need to win some of the rural sections as well. It also helps to have quality people running for the offices and it seems that the Dems, not the Repukes, have found them.

I thought the selection of Keyes by the Illinois
Republican Party demonstrated their bankruptcy of ideas and candidates. Good grief - Keyes got something like 30% of the vote running for Senate in his home state of Maryland - What made them think he was going to be competitive in Illinois? What an insult to voters that was. What was his final percent, anyway?

Isn't that what democracy is about? debate? Republicans stifle debate, Democrats encourage it.

put chimp back in. They are the ones that are going to be "stunned" with how fucked they are, I already know it.

The democratic party needs some substance:

1. The party should formally denounce gerrymandering and make public
arguments about how it is racist and not someting that a genuine
democrat supports.

2. The party should stand vocally for the enfranchisement of all
black and minority voters, by standing against the race-based
imprisonment of the drugs war, felony disenfranchisement (race),
and all those things that they're afraid of losing voters by supporting.

3. The party should come forward with a realistic womens adgenda, and
stand for equal womens rights as a core plank in its platform. Why
can't the dems push an equal rights amendment, when the pukes make
bullcrap amendments about denying rights, and burning flags. Even if
these opportunities fail, it shows the party has fire and a belief
in grassroots democracy.

4. The party needs to come out against the corporate takeover of the
media and congressional lobbying pork. I would hope that this tv
station of Mr. Gore gets appropriate support as a democratic example
of how media should be.

5. The party should put foward a hard nosed security policy that
defends the american people, and is constantly reminding the media
that real warriors are standing by, whilst republican chidren fritter
away lives in an asian desert.

6. Form an economic thinktank along the lines of "cato" except
espousing truly intelligent policy papers that can be used as
ammunition for an ideological base.

7. Come out strongly for freedom of religion, and the separation of
church and state, having a special media-mouthpeice that challenges
every single encroachment in this area, to keep the public aware that
the democratic party is still defending the constitution from its
opposition stance.

8. Find a new leadership that has the balls to speak frankly, daschle
was a coward, and now that he's gone, Dennis Kucinich would be a much
more powerful leader.

Figurative barrels, for our SS buddies. We don't need to regroup, we don't need to reanalyze why our strategy played or didn't play with various hair-split demographic groups, we just need to put every ounce of pressure on the media to tell the truth and on Bush to stop slaughtering people. Our stragey will develop over time, we need to start by being righteous.

go after the criminals in charge? ELECTION FRAUD WAS OBVIOUS!

tHEY WON'T EVEN REACH OUT ONE FINGER TO STOP A MASS MURDERER! JUST MUTTER AND SAY IT'S NOT POLITE TO ARGUE WHILE WE BEG THEM TO PRESERVE OUR COUNTRY AND OUR RIGHTS.

THE DEMS ARE PATHETIC LOSERS.

Ron Reagan said last night that Democrats should find something to rally around, like universal health care, and then stand unwavering for it.

and chose Bush Lite.

The FACTS are that Dean woulda been FAR more efficacious at bringing out the young and the truly unruly progressives that can take this nation back.

It is high time someone with the BALLS to speak out against Israel and Fundies and wishy washy middle grounders led us back to our True Roots.

Pandering to the center is NOT THE ANSWER like it was for papa Bill in '92

I said we would be Fucked when we went to the right and took on the hawkish Kerry.

Peace in Iraq is when the troops leave.

Democratic victory is when you stop being such Republican wannabe PUSSIES and speak out forcefully against the religous DUMBASSES that caused this tragedy.

The numbers ARE on the side of the left.

But the left's leadership only wants the low hanging fruit.

Soul Searching and Truth Telling are just too fuckin' hard at the top of the politcal fod chain, even if you are (allegedly) a Dem.

The Dems need s Ralph Nader. And preferably of color. Then is is game set match.

and lose again until out of existence.

"Yes Sir! How shall we arm them today, Sir?"

"Rocket launchers on Thursday and flame throwers on Friday. You know the drill!"

just clean house!

with Howard Dean, et al.

(Lengthy diatribe follows. Sorry, I'm not usually so emotional).

I think Kerry was a great candidate and did a great job except one thing: He was too nice. Next time (2006), no nice guy stuff. Starting today, we have to fight on Rove's terms. Let's start digging up the dirt, the gossip, the low-down on every Bush appointee, every Republican member of Congress, governor, etc. We start with the most vulnerable members of the right wing. Let's write letters to the editor, e-mails, etc. to the press about what we have found. Let's develop a winning vocabulary that tells our story so people in sound bites. All we need is one hungry reporter who needs a juicy scoop. That's how Rove does it.

We know that some members of the press read D.U. Now that Bush is a lame duck, the stories that sell will be the ones that make him look bad. Let's make his administration as controversial as the Republicans made Clinton's. Let's follow up on the Plame story, the Al QaQaa story, the "negotiations" in Korea, Halliburton, the next Enron, etc. Tie those stories to the ever growing number of American casualties in Iraq. The Bush administration shows employment rose last month. Let's talk about what kinds of jobs, declining wages. And let's don't forget the tough topics: immigration (Bush's plan to allow guest workers) and what it will mean for American wages, the global economy and the downward wage spiral, outsourcing, the cost of education in America compared to countries we "compete?" with. Health care. The dollar. Alternative energy. Jobs. Tax breaks -- who is going to benefit from them? Who will lose from them? Foreign policy. Global warming. These are all our issues -- and they are winners. It will be much easier to discuss these controversial topics now that we don't have to agree with a candidate.

We cannot retreat. Did you read the editorial in today's Los Angeles Times by Frank Pastore? I quote:

"In the weeks and months to come, we wil hear the voices of well-meaning people beseeching the victor to compromise with the vanquished. This would be a mistake. Conservatives must not compromise with the left. Good people holding false ideas are won over only if we defeat what is false with the truth.

The left must be defeated in the realm of ideas, just as it was on Tuesday at the ballot box."

Pastore becomes totally disjointed and incoherent after that, but you get the jist.

Right-wing Americans don't want us, and now they think they don't need us. Let's don't pretend it is otherwise. What would Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson, etc. have done? Can we do no less?

Bush wants to talk about ownership issues. Great. Let's talk about who owns the workplace and how they should treat their employees.

The union/labor movement was the impetus behind the glory days of the Democratic Party. Sure, a few of us are still union members, but in general, the Republicans have killed the union movement. There is no reviving it. The Democratic Party, however, acts like unions are still alive and leaves ordinary working people without protection.

The Democratic Party should stand up for and empower non-union workers, including technicians and professionals, on employment issues. For instance, on what grounds should an employer be able to terminate employment? What criteria should be used in evaluating an employee? Shouldn't we have consistent laws that entitle workers to adequate vacation and sick leave? Shouldn't an ex-employer have to tell the ex-employee what the ex-employer says about the ex-employee to a prospective employer? Shouldn't American pension funds be better protected in takeovers and sales, against exorbitant brokerage fees, etc.? These aren't just economic issues. These are dignity issues. We can have private enterprise without depriving employees of their dignity.

Same re landlords, credit card companies, banks and other power structures that take advantage of the little guys in our society. These are the real economic issues, and they are more important to people than abortion or gay marriage. Democrats are missing the boat by not standing up for the little guy on these issues.

with their own social issues. The most popular repugs nationwide aren't the extremest fundies. Force the fundie agenda (a real loser in a national election) onto the table. If the 'moderate' repugs help pass the garbage we suffer until '06 when its '94 in reverse. If the 'mods' don't pass it, Pat R will form his own party and we kick the crap out of them and the tiny new Repug party. (still gotta fix the media and BBV though)