NYT: Disconsolate Blue City Bewildered by Red America (NYC 75% Kerry)

A Blue City (Disconsolate, Even) Bewildered by a Red America
By JOSEPH BERGER

Published: November 4, 2004


Striking a characteristic New York pose near Lincoln Center yesterday, Beverly Camhe clutched three morning newspapers to her chest while balancing a large latte and talked about how disconsolate she was to realize that not only had her candidate, John Kerry, lost but that she and her city were so out of step with the rest of the country.

"Do you know how I described New York to my European friends?" she said. "New York is an island off the coast of Europe."

Like Ms. Camhe, a film producer, three of every four voters in New York City gave Mr. Kerry their vote, a starkly different choice from the rest of the nation. So they awoke yesterday with something of a woozy existential hangover and had to confront once again how much of a 51st State they are, different in their sensibilities, lifestyles and polyglot texture from most of America. The election seemed to reverse the perspective of the famous Saul Steinberg cartoon, with much of the land mass of America now in the foreground and New York a tiny, distant and irrelevant dot.

Some New Yorkers, like Meredith Hackett, a 25-year-old barmaid in Brooklyn, said they didn't even know any people who had voted for President Bush. (In both Manhattan and the Bronx, Mr. Bush received 16.7 percent of the vote.) Others spoke of a feeling of isolation from their fellow Americans, a sense that perhaps Middle America doesn't care as much about New York and its animating concerns as it seemed to in the weeks immediately after the attack on the World Trade Center.

"Everybody seems to hate us these days," said Zito Joseph, a 63-year-old retired psychiatrist. "None of the people who are likely to be hit by a terrorist attack voted for Bush. But the heartland people seemed to be saying, 'We're not affected by it if there would be another terrorist attack.' "...


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/nyregion/04york.html

"None of the people who are likely to be hit by a terrorist attack voted for Bush. But the heartland people seemed to be saying, 'We're not affected by it if there would be another terrorist attack.' "

He's got it figured out. Never really thought of it like that...

This election was never about terrorism. It's about morals and values. We ALL know where NY stands on that issue.

I will always stand by New Yorkers. They are not alone. The rest of us New Yorkers are scattered throughout the land.

we appreciate it very much.

Now living in the red part of Pennsylvania, but the consolation is that our county (100K votes) only gave * around 10,000 as the rest were effectively cancelled out.

I wish we werent so far apart.....

He asked who I voted for, I told him Kerry. He voted for Bush.

Why?

He doesn't want another terrorist attack.

Sigh.

Wow that blows my mind.

IDIOT!

very seriously.

to those red states.

I have never even been to NY (I will one day) but I have always felt like a New Yorker.

The rightwing's "morals" and "values" are all subjective anyway. Take outsourcing! How "moral" is it to fatten your own portfolio while your neighbors are losing their homes and livelihoods? But yet, the rethug jerks all defend outsourcing. They really need to reexamine their "morals". Until then, f*** them!

We are true blue.

IL totally slipped my mind, in my anger. I was thinking of heartland as in IA, MO, IN, and the Mid-West from ND down.

from a nutcase fundy (I think it was on freerepublic), but that person said exactly that - that NYC was a city of homosexuals, immigrants, etc etc...but s/he was saddened by it. What BS. That reminds of Pat Roberston's statement about 9/11 being caused by abortionists and the ACLU.

I always felt that much of the red state sympathy for NYC wasn't very sincere.

Bush is an angel of light he is not what he seems to be. He fooled a lot of people but not me. You can blame the media too. their trying to say Democrats are dying breed. that was their theme on CNN last night. but 55 million out of 115 million Americans are with New York. This ass would not shake Arafat's hand is that Godly? The Bible Jesus says in the last days many will come in my name and deceive many.:evilfrown:

went for Kerry, it blew my mind that the heartland of America, those who most buy into Cheney's fear-mongering, were the ones to back the thugs' War on Terror.....

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

DemEx

I have had these same thoughts. The rest of the country said "who cares" to us.

off to bush's wars.

When there are no consequences...

Oh hell. What's the use?

Let the corpses roll in.

:nuke:

...are NO Democrats/liberals in the so-called "red states"?

Is it also safe to say that you believe that the so-called "blue states" only contain people that believe in Democratic/liberal causes?

If I were to state that certain individuals that live in the so-called "blue states" lack any evidence of being capable of critical thinking, how would you personally feel about that?

Thoughts? Comments? Questions?

it was meant to be facetious.

Seriously, though, if the majority down there are proud of their ignorance and bigotry, fine. Let them learn the hard way, when their promised "Rapture" turns out to be a fatal heartbreaking fairy tale.

Or maybe enough folks like yourself can help them see the light.

:nuke:

I'm surrounded by these idiots, I'm born and bred one but I must have caught a virus, and at this point I say let people vent. People are gonna DIE because of this stolen election, and the evidence about who helped that happen is incontrovertible.

A shitload of kids from the cash-strapped areas of rural America cannot afford college and, thanks to Wal-Mart, there are few family-owned businesses on main street for them to come home to. So instead they enlist and head off to boot camp the day after high school graduation.

Rove did a stellar job via the Swifties and the double talk on the $87 billion of making these families believe that Kerry is anti-military.

I know, the stupidity out here is mind-boggling.

Young girls from the bush-lover states who saw the military as their ONLY way to find job training and money for college. There was NOTHING ELSE AVAILABLE TO THEM. EITHER OF THEM. And they're not isolated cases, either. LOTS of our troops are marooned over there for the same reasons. I read their stories and found it most intriguing that both these young women had this same background - looking to the Army as a way up and out because the economy in their own communities offered NOTHING. NOTHING!

Frankly, I want the war stopped. I want ALL OF 'EM to come HOME - to wherever it is their homes are, red state or blue. I want us ALL, collectively, OUT OF THERE, where our very presence is doing nothing but aggravating an already-abominable situation. And I find myself thinking of those who supported bush, and bought all his lies and and manipulations and other baloney, with less and less compassion. If they love his damned war so much, THEY should be first in line to go fight it. Just as all the chickenhawks who wouldn't go fight when it was their turn but are just FINE with sending other people's kids off to that meat-grinder. THEY, TOO, should be first in line. If they think this war is just so damned fine, let them go enjoy it, front-row center.

I feel the same way about the choice issue. You can bet if/when Roe V Wade is overturned, some of these same people who so loudly condemned us "baby-killers" will have daughters or sisters who've been raped and then are forced to face an unwanted pregnancy. They'll probably wish like hell there was a way out. And if they're stupid enough to look to someone like me for sympathy, all I'll be able to offer them is the following question: "did you vote for bush? Well, then, YOU made this happen. Happy now?"

Those who voted for bush are nothing but enablers of his evil. And if they did, I hope they face direct consequences for having done so. Most of the time, people like that only start seeing things a different way when the bad news (that ordinarily happens to somebody else) steps up and smacks 'em upside the head.

What I hate is - they picked the Titanic. Unfortunately, the rest of us, including Dems and progressives and liberals in the red states, face drowning, too.

I live in the south. When I went to visit friends in NYC, my repub friends said "be careful, NYC is dangerous." Hell, they've NEVER been to NYC. They said they did not EVER want to go there. I said what about the museums, art, theater, architecture, great parks, restaurants, etc. They just don't give a shit. They are scared of NYC. Scared of anyone and anyplace not all white, christian and republican. Fuck them.

...and it's not just the south that thinks like that; I've had friends from the 'burbs just a few dozen miles away practically tremble at the idea of taking The Subway (even the most heavily travelled line in the middle of the day) because their view of New York seems to be stuck around 1977 or so: "The Warriors" mixed with the '77 Blackout looting mixed with Bernie Goetz.

I know New Yorkers can be condecending toward other places (sometimes with reason, and sometimes out of stupid regional prejudice), but I've never heard it reach the sheer intensity of the venom I've heard other people in the so-called "heartland" direct at New York and New Yorkers as an icon of whatever they deem unholy.

It's funny - my husband and I were talking about this last night. I grew up in Brooklyn annd in the mid 70s was a teenager. It was the height of the fiscal crisis, crime was very high, the subways were menacing and graffitti covered ( and they caught fire pretty frequently because there was no money to maintain them) - there was racial tension- it was pretty bad. But I had open minded parents and I often took the trains into the "city" as we Brooklynites call Manhattan and hung out in the Village with friends (more about my mispent youth another day).

I live in the burbs now, pretty Democratic, pretty Jewish, could be worse. MOstly I live here for the schools because the city schools just aren't that good and I can't afford private school.

My daughter is 13 and when I was her age, I'd go to Manhattan with friends. When I tell other people who grew up here that, they say "Oh, but it's a DIFFERENT WORLD" now, it's more dangerous."

But that's not true- it was much more dangerous then. This whole "culture war" is based on some hazy fuzzy notion that life was perfect when BLacks and women and Jews knew their place. When Mom stayed home and Dad went to the Insurance office, and the maid cleaned your house and gave you cookies after school. When there were no gays and girls who got pregnant disappeared for long vacations and then came back as if nothing had happened. Life was never like that.

These people do not live in the real world. They want to go back in time- they'd probably go pre Galileo if they could.

These are tough times for people who think.

I saw Chomski on WorlLink tv yesterday. He pointed out that our gov't has used fear to control us for decades. Remember RayGun and his hardon for the Sandanistas? That communist hoard was only two days drive from texas, be afraid and kill them all.

This is nothing new for america. In fact the more I learn of the history of this country, the more I realize that we've all been sold a bill of goods, and the goods have soured.

Stupid rumors keep the riff raff out.

"Militant Ignorance". It's not that they don't know, it's that they don't WANT to know.

I've lived all over the country and I see it more here in Eastern Tennessee than I've ever seen it before.

I don't know if it's the times (and these ARE different) or if it's the culture, or if it's ????

Absolutely refuse to go to the place.

Religious fundamentalists - in the San Diego offices of my company.

:scared:

time in her life that the wealthy burbs she grew up in freaked her out and looked so evil to her with all the cheney/ bush signs ... she's been out of there since college and has become a lot more politically /socially aware since then.
I had to be honest, i told her i had always looked at neighborhoods that wealthy that skeptically, growing up in the city. At least all the rich people in the city ain't all Stepford and fucking brain dead!!
I'm in touch w/ my anger now!

are just as dangerous as anyone in New York.

I live in New Jersey, and the only times I got to visit NYC when I was young was on school class trips. Every time I asked my parents if we could go to New York, they'd reply "there's nothing worth seeing in New York" and change the topic. Now I'm older and can visit the Big Apple whenever. In my opinion, it's still the most exciting place on Earth.
(Off the topic, I'm completely disgusted with Ocean County, NJ. We went 70-30 for Bush.)

A few years ago I was offered a job which would have required us to relocate to Houston, TX. My husband did a lot of research and you know what? the murder, assault, rape, robbery and theft rates were all Much higher, even in the "nice" suburbs around Houston than NJ or NYC. Air quality was better in NJ and NYC. Water quality was better. And don't even get me started on the schools.

Believe me, I feel perfectly safe walking down West 23rd street at midnight - wouldn't always say the same thing about some isolated county roads in our great land. (On the other hand, I'm pretty much ignored when I walk down any street in Chelsea ;) )

I'm the one with the pug!

that everyone else thinks is much more handsome that I do. (Actually my mom's and boyfriend's dog.)

I mean I'm from Boston, and I hated NY my whole life, but now that the Red Sox have humiliated NY, I'm over that. This guy quoted in the article is absolutely right, bc the "terrsts" will never attack fucking Utah or Mississipi, but will always go for NY, DC, Boston, Chicago, LA, SF, bc that's where the body count is.

I never thought I'd write this, but big hugs to NY today.

Apparently its the states that voted for war instead of peace that will not endure security per Bin Laden.

thanks for posting

Day of the Dead: The Haunting of
the White House
By Cynthia McKinney and Catherine Austin
Fitts
Nov 2, 2004, 07:46

Something is rising from the ashes of September 11: the
spectre of questions that will haunt our country until answered.

HOUSE: New 7R, 6D. Cynthia McKinney
overwhelmingly won back the seat she held for a
decade before being upset in 2002 Democratic
primary.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_13213.shtml

Bless her, she is a great woman.

After General Eberhart's sworn testimony, I asked him who was in charge of
coordinating the multiple war games running on 9/11. He replied: "No Comment."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/archive/scoop/stories/5b/96/200408191445.597e85ef.html

:hi:

We also have John Barrow (GA 12th district) on our side. It was an amazing victory over Max Burns. Two bright spots for GA.

I've been to NYC only once, but I fell in love with it. New Yorkers are honest people. Those red-state idiots have turned their backs on the areas hit hardest by terrorism. I am thoroughly disgusted by them.x(

Wearing yellow ribbons and yelling "support our troops" one minute while wearing purple heart band-aids the next.

Hypocrites.

I live in a blue state but the ratio here is probably 51 blue 49 red --the thought of living amongst people that bitch freely about bush sounds like heaven!

bring lots of money with you. Starter homes in the surrounding suburber begin at $300,000 for a 2 bedroom.

Upstate is also blue (check out Ithaca, NY if you want to live in total upstate blueness), and they're more affordable (average rent for a small place in $400/month, but it does get awfully chilly up there.

in Cayuga county, we're also blue :7
Granted, 50-48% isn't a landslide but for a rural county it pretty good.

Striking a characteristic New York pose near Lincoln Center yesterday, Beverly Camhe clutched three morning newspapers to her chest while balancing a large latte and talked about how disconsolate she was to realize that not only had her candidate, John Kerry, lost but that she and her city were so out of step with the rest of the country.

51-48 = OUT OF STEP!!!!! They're talking like this was Nixon-McGovern.:eyes:

How does THAT strike you?

no mandate anywhere.

Heil Fuher Chimp.

This battle is between Rural/Affluent/super rich and the "urban areas. The repubs have put together a very powerful coalition. The rural voters will never support the urban groups. They look at us as morally inferior. This fight has been going on for many years. Even when I was in college in the sixties Upstate looked at downstate as weird. I don't see how we can change the affluent voter in the red states to support us. The affluent voter in the "blue ststes" can be converted but those states already support us. Look at the blue states- highly educated with the best universities. A solid history of skepticism of religion and a firm belief of seperation of church and state. How we get to a winnable coalition is troubling me. I currently live in the south and there is little hope that this state will ever vote for a democrat. Look at how successful Passion of the Christ" has been and there is a seperate group of "faith based entertainers" that do very well and sell out all the time. We need more than a new marketing philosophy. There has to be a fundamental change in America and an understanding of why there is supposed to be a seperation of the church and state. Look at the increase in home schooling. These are all examples of the seperation of our culture from a middle ground to one of us against them and whoever wins rules. I unfortunately think we are only half way through the conservative lifecycle. We governed for fifty years and they have ruled(they believe in ruling) for twenty five. Remember at the base of conservative philosophy is selfishness. I got mine you get yours. This is a party(Southern) that at it's roots believed that Jim Crow was OK party and historically was against social security from the beginning. They believe if old people are eating cat food then it's a good lesson for not saving enough and it's a good lesson for society. I hope I'm wrong.

I live in a red state that should be blue......we lost NC barely, and it was all because of negative ads and people believing them. It was all about lies and I hope and pray that before too long that the victims of 9/11 will be vindicated..I hope that Kerry & Edwards goes after the real causes of this cover-up and exposes it just as he did Iran-Contra when they used the hostage crisis to wipe out the career of Jimmy Carter (so they thought)..these people are not speaking for the real morality of America, just dupeing them and it, too, will be uncovered. I have never seen America goverened in such a self-righteous way, it is really profaning the name of God. You will never use God in a spiteful and hateful way and it will come back to haunt the church. Karl Rove is smart, but he isn't God and God will not be used in the way that they are using Him now...........(me thoughts)

I call it cause and effect---same idea though.
In times like these we need to be reminded of this principle.

Deep Modern Mom,

Thanks for the welcome. I have been on DU for a while and just started to comment. Conservatives appeal to greed. greed is extremely motivating. I'm 53 and the first time one of my presidential candidtes I voted for won was in 1992 and I was the last of the 21 tears old to get the right to vote. My wife and I talk all the time about moving. We really can't stand the south. Yes, I know good people down here but we have always felt out of step with the south. We democrats think of others the conservatives by and large only think of themselves. That is why Jim Crow didn't bother them. It is also why they aren't against Iraq because they have no vested interest in the war. The same goes for the deficit. This is a tough mindset to change.

I share so many of the feelings expressed in that article. We didn't go three-to-one for Kerry -- it was more like two-to-one. But we are in the majority here and it's difficult to understand the rest of this red state.

The good news is that there are people with an "NYC" mentality all over the country -- we're just a little too spread out and slightly in the minority. We must not forget all the newspaper endorsements that Kerry won and even the tepid endorsements that Bush won. We must not forget that many of the votes Bush got were the "hold your nose" variety. He's not a popular president and he's certainly not any more competent today than he was November 1. He did NOT receive a mandate and if he continues to govern as if he did, he will continue to piss off even more people.

A year ago, no one even dreamed that a Democratic candidate had a chance and yet we came very close. We ran out of time but after a very short-lived surge for Bush, I believe the momentum is on our side if we don't give up.

Once they get to know us, I think they WILL stand with us. But WE must make the effort. They aren't coming to NYC, Boston, etc. We urbanites must go to them.

Planning a small vacation? Europe is already on our side. Take a trip to Nebraska, e.g. Start establishing relationships.

Find yourself a Heartland pen pal, and start by LISTENING to what they have to say. Allow them to talk themselves out. Then, start building the relationship based on WHERE THEY CURRENTLY STAND. Once a trusting relationship is established on a footing that is comfortable for them, you can slowly suggest alternate ways of looking at the issues.

We can't just show up in those states at election time and expect they will vote Dem.

only by heart to heart dialogue will anything change. This isn't so easy and its slow. Its also so hard when right now I can barely speak to anyone who's a fundy. I can't even speak about them respectfully I'm so angry at the delusion. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet.

Then begin the process. Sure, it will be slow going because the neoCons have a 30-year head start on us. But we have to begin somewhere!

The left needs door-to-door salesmen: smile, get your foot in the door, and SELL SELL SELL!

They won't get my money, they won't get my ear, I have nothing to say to them, I don't care what they think, they are not worth my time. It's civil war, it's a culture war, it truth and justice versus fear and ignorance and I am DONE with those people.

Flame away - I'm a New Yorker and I've never been prouder to be one.

(I'm also a NYer), we only have two choices. Either we have to try to understand eachother (red vs blue) or have a civil war (which I'm sorta kinda in favor of). I'm tired of my federal tax dollars feeding those parasitic red states.

I say we fight them individually, one on one, face to face. If you voted Red I do not know you, I will not listen to you, I have nothing to say to you, and I will do whatever I can to screw you.

"It's the bigotry and the ignorance, stupid." I have no more interest in dialogue with them. It's two Americas now. Us and them.

lefty, they left us here to be killed. They want us dead. So now I return the sentiment, since it is clear and unmistakable. I hope the Heartland has a heart attack from their all-you-can-eat lifestyles, if they want to vote on lifestyles. Let's pass a Constitutional amendment against obesity.

I feel I have nothing in common with anyone south of the mason dixon line (esp those who voted *) - I don't understand they way they think and frankly, have no desire to. As far as I'm concerned, they have blood all over their hands and I'd let them drown in their ignorance and stupidity.

You just don't know it yet.

a 43 year old (not a child) and can't figure out what I could possibly need them for

Rough times are ahead. You know it and I know it.

Hint: They control the food supply.

I'm afraid you're right about the rough times - I thought 12 years under Reagan/Bush was bad but this is unbearable.

However, the Reign of Bush may well invite another attack on our cities. If we are forced to flee, we will be looking for food and shelter. If we alienate those people, they will be waiting for us with shotguns, instead of bread/apples/soup/blankets. (This is my father's attitude and he is not alone.)

I will gladly offer my professional skills to an uneducated Nebraska farmer, e.g., in exchange for food/shelter.

Bush will not protect urban areas. He wants us Dems GONE. Therefore, we need to build bridges with the Heartland. Now.

I do understand your viewpoint. It was not so long ago that I shared it. But now our entire nation is endangered. Other countries see the rise of Fascist America. How long do you think they will watch the American threat grow before they decide to take action against us? BushCo will jump in helicopters and head for safety. The rest of us urbanites will perish.

I agree with you on that but frankly I'd go north for help before I'd go south. NY has plenty of arable land and is a mighty big state.

The heartland doesn't want to help us - they think we're nothing but lazy, amoral heathens (while they suck up our tax dollars)and are so busy preparing for the second coming they have no time for their fellow Americans except when they can use our tragedy to further their goals.

but the South has a longer growing season and you won't freeze to death from exposure in the winter.

Also, we need them to win back the White House. :)

They live insular lives in the Heartland, which is why they are so easily scammed by false prophets and ReThugs. I pity them for their ignorance.

he didn't need one southern state to take this election.

I understand the wanting to reach out and please believe when I say I felt the same way for a looooong time....but I'm tired of being beaten down by these cretins trying to tell me how to run my life...who's good, who's bad...enough is enough. I'm ready to fight.

But we must fight "smart". Who exactly should we be fighting, when, and how? Based on what intelligence?

Believe me, I've been fighting a long time (and have the bruises to show for it). I just hate to see someone rush into battle and take unnecessary risks. I'd like to see other people benefit from my mistakes.

something going on we don't like....fight every vote in Congress that we feel damages this country....take it to whoever will listen, whoever will print (international if we have to), let them get away with nothing, no compromise UNTIL (not hope) we get something concrete in return. Let everyone know we're not going anywhere, that this is our country also and that we WILL FIGHT FOR IT.

the oil. Where would you like to start? Karl Rove?

You can find him here:
http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php?type=name&lname=rove&fname=karl&search=Search+by+Name

Just remember -- no stalking, harassment, or other illegal behavior!

He'll wind up with a job on a board of some major corporation and become fat and lazy. I'm talking about good, old-fashioned activism. Make sure you (we) are heard. Mandate my ass.

But I don't remember the "red states" suddenly stopping north of the Mason-Dixon line.

is pretty glaring in the disparity...Maybe it would have been better to say the states with large, DIVERSE populations

I'm a former NY'er living in a red state. We are hated here. Oh sure they like to use our brains to run their companies but it's right under the surface.

I don't care how many DU'ers tell me I'm wrong, but I'm not. I couldnt believe when I moved here that their would such a pack personality to these folks. They hate the "other" more then they would hate the good christian man next store that got their 15 year old knocked up.

It's not worth living here. YOu can't sell them anything because they won't purchase something they have already decided is faulty.
Reality be damned.

and that is the story this article should have led with.

I am convinced the main story in this election is fraud, however the second story I am not hearing much about is the huge voter drive by churches and how they dictated their congregations to vote for Bush. Early voting made a tremendous difference in the turnout as well.

I like your NY attitude. :) I have been mild before the election, but now that Bushit stole it again, I am ticked off. I'm with you on this.

I've even written off members of my own family who voted for the pukes.

New York should secede. Without us, America would die.

And since all the MSM whores are in New York, a posse of us should get our asses down to Rockefeller Center etc. and drive them all out of town on a rail.

New York, where we figured out who the *real* terrorists were.

the idea that people in Wy-fucking-oming are scared of terrorists is so laughable. they are PUSSIES. New Yorkers kick their ass!

rcm

you actually know any moral majority types and fundamentalists? They have minds that cannot change.

This reminds me of my childhood experience. My family lived in southern New Jersey. We had a best friend family from the Bronx. The people in my community called my mothers best friend "That woman from New York who smokes."

One doesn't start such conversations by focusing on controversial issues. One starts by building relationships based on common experience.

House been burglarized? High school teenager flunking math? You get the picture.

Once they get to know you and like you and trust you AS A FELLOW HUMAN BEING you can start slowly talking about subjects where there is minor disagreement. Listen first. Agree where you honestly can. Then, respectfully offer opposing viewpoints for them to consider at their leisure. End on a high note, emphasizing common experience.

This is not being manipulative. It is just learning to communicate effectively with people on the other side of the national chasm. Building bridges.

ON EDIT: Think of it as a Political Grand Canyon. We need to reach the folks on the other side. Flying a small plane towing a "Vote Dem" banner every 4 years won't work. We've got to do some rock-climbing and whitewater rafting. It will be a challenge, an exhilarating experience, and you may just learn something about yourself and others in the process.

It's OUR security that's threatened, not some bumfuck in the middle of nowhere...We know who would keep us safer and who puts us more at risk...

Thanks America, for playing fast and loose with our lives..."I got's mine so FUCK YOU! I don't live in a bullseye, so what the fuck do I care?"

No gas for the car.

No gas for the tractor, the combine, the mill.

No fuel oil for heat.

No petrochemical fertilizers.

Massive rural depression with >90% unemployment.

Only next time, John Mellencamp and Willie Nelson won't be around to help them out. But there will be some hope -- the Military will be "hiring"!

--bkl

and all the petro-chemically dependent red-state livelihoods evaporate, where will the masses go to?

the cities
that by and large are blue
where gays and non-white people live

their choices will be to starve/freeze or ask for help from the ones they can't stand, those of the liberal tolerant persuasion.

and fags and what ever it is dey call demselves dese days, as my sister-in-law's father said when he was trying to understand why I wanted to live in California. I think a lot of the ultra-conservative attitude has to do with fear of people Not Like Us.

Like one of the people in the original article, I don't know anyone who'll admit to voting for Bush either. Maybe the country has gotten too polarized to work effectively anymore. I've been thinking over the last few years that secession is getting more and more attractive. I think we're mature enough to do it amicably this time - I'll even consider honorary citizenship for those of you trapped in the red states :-)

did not abandon you. Stephanie is right - the anger needs to be specific to individuals who admit voting for *.

Everyone I have talked to/with from NY,NJ and CT is depressed at having that man serve as our president

When he said at the UN in September "Welcome to MY country",you could 5 million NYers puking at that statement

"The election was more painful and more depressing than 9/11."

This came from a guy who lived six blocks from the WTC, who shepherded desperate downtown refugees into his loft, who was evacuated from his home for several days, and whose residence was covered in contaminated dust and human remains.

n/t

voted against the candidate whose strong point is supposedly toughness on terror

The NYC total was brought down some by Staten Island and parts of Queens.

America: Proudly purchasing Precious Moments firemen figurines, proudly voting for the man who got them killed

Red States: Is it safe to start making New York jokes again?

Giuliani: Four more years of presidential fellatio

Pataki: I know, let's talk about, uh, gay marriage, yeah, that's it!

And if I ever see Giuliani on the street I will spit in his face. I might have to go to Elaine's one night just for that purpose.

:evilgrin:

and i think that bush gave that to him. he has desensitized so many people- we are the ones who commit atrocities and torture people.. we are on a religious crusade.. it's a horror show and it's just served to make everybody numb.
the rest of the country (except dc and pa) don't know shit about what it was like to be here. they watched it on tv, same as the chimp knows about the war.... and only the people who are naturally empathetic were really touched. but for so many people it was --just theater, something they pretended to share in.... reinforced by the threat level that's been up for three years.... we are numb from it all.
oh it makes me sick.

Graphic of NY breakdown by county (and district in NYC).

Red upstate but the city is the deepest blue (except for Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn: to be expected)

(the graphic isn't on the website (yet?))

i work where they publish "paper magazine" and "instint"-paper is a faggot/ new york magazine and instint-well one guy refused to touch it..ya i feel your pain new yorkers-cracker nation has spoken-

Considering there was a huge divide between the urban and rural areas, maybe it is time for City States. The cities and other sorrounding blue areas can be their own city state. Hmm.

(Note: I don't really support this, just putting the idea on the table)


- David

My 92 year old father is a perfect example. He thinks Ronald Reagan was the best president ever. And believes that Eisenhower should be honored with a holiday instead of Martin Luther King. That all black people smell differently than white folks.

I lived in New York City for a few years in the eighties. During the course of a conversation about NYC, I said I've never been happier living anywhere else. I thought he was gonna faint! Dad thinks I'm mentally unbalanced.

These toothless wonders will peer out of their Tar paper shacks and vote for the Chimp , because the Chimp has "values'

I live in Houston. My rep is Sheila Jackson Lee; she ran unopposed. My state rep & senator also had no Republican opposition; a Libertarian ran against Senator Gallegos. People from all over the world live in this city, even though we've got far too many Republicans.

But I'm sure Midland has its fine points. Like the replica of the Globe Theater--or is that in Odessa?

I've only been here for a year anda half. And I'm certainly not crazy over Houston with their dirty air and high humidity, cough cough.

I do like Sheila Jackson Lee.

Sorry for being so cantankerous!

No one can really take in what has exactly occurred.

I was prepared for Bush to steal another election.

I was not prepared for John Kerry to turn his back on us so quickly.

and you know it. He's served us better than perhaps we deserve... And I have a whole new view of the integrity of a politician. If given a chance, he'd be as popular as Clinton. Thank you fundies....

(disgust)

When the Bra+panties wearing Rudia told him to concede, John Kerry couldn't jump quick enough to obey the ugly cross-dressing fascist.

John Kerry didn't even wait until all the votes were counted in OH.

I believed John Kerry when he said, "Help was on the Way."

Where's that Help?

...and coming up a few thousand votes short in Ohio to a lying, shameless, wartime incumbent.

Man oh man did Kerry give up on us.

Get a fucking grip.

talk too.

One positive here is that all of Manhattan is feeling this anomie together and we are talking about it with each other.

And again, as in the days after the 9/11 Massacres, I believe we are treating each other better. We are aware of what everyone else is feeling.

I'm glad you have DU.

is worse.

It's just that because there weren't any fire works, most people don't realize it yet.

Dammit, there's not such a great divide as the politicians and their corporations would like us to believe. Millions of people in the heartland voted for Kerry. Some of them in Ohio waited in the cold rain for ten hours to do so - in defiance of deliberate vote suppression.

If we let our enemies divide us and we bicker among ourselves (red state! blue state! hate you!) then they win it all.

All liberals need to stand united. On 9/11, and today, I am a New Yorker.

...being redneck and racist.

It would seem that only 51% are. The biggest problem is their fundamental religous views and beliefs that they keep trying to force on everyone else.

That agree with this

I would rather believe that the same crowd of fraudsters that pulled off BCCI, Iran/Contra, Silverado S&L, Election 2000 theft, just added Election 2004 to their C.V., rather than almost 59 million of my fellow citizens are fearful, greedy, hateful, selfish and easily manipulated. Of course some of them are, but 59 million?

I believe the KNOWN fraud criminals commited fraud again. It is the simplest answer and satisfies Occam's Razor.

It really bothers me that people sitting on their butts, far away from any chance of harm, would sit and push a button to re-select the man who read the goat story while New Yorkers were dying. Do such people even have a conscience?

I just want anyone here affected by terror to know that everyone in the south does not think like that, some of us do care, and some of us respect and support your choice.

I just don't know how anyone could vote for * knowing that the great majority of the families of victims supported Kerry. I honestly just do not know. I don't like to think that so many of my fellow Southerners could be so uncaring.

On edit -- An example of some who cared in the south, I will link you a story from today's New Orleans newspaper, part of which tells about young people who waited 8 hours at Dillard and Xavier University to vote. These are African-Americans, and I can guarantee they weren't waiting all afternoon and into the night in very bad weather to vote for Bush! Unfortunately, the Democratic stronghold of New Orleans faced some very adverse conditions for voters. I believe theft occurred in many states, not just Ohio and Florida. I believe the sick, selfish people are truly a minority.

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-5/109955131857240.xml


There are people who care in the south, but often it's the people who have the least power, sad to say.

Read World War Three, August 1985. by Hackett et al.
In it, the Soviet system is brought to a halt in its attack on Germany by a coordinated strike on the Kiev.

Not Moscow, the center, but deep into the biggest client soviet state. The aQ strategists have read this book, indeed as have most military thinkers in the last 20 years. Red America feels safe, and that will change. I think New York has voted for its own self interest. Now a sensible strategy for AQ would be to take terror to the heartland.
Texas should be the next target. There was a natural gas explosion in Houston last night, of course it was an accident.

So if I am right. Look for those things that represent neocon intrest and provoke fear to explode. I.E. large petroleum storage and transfer facilities, which to this very day remain unguarded in the entire of the Red Zone. The investment class are exposed via attacks to the data infrastructure, the fiber system, bio attacks on Houston, assasinations, and attacks on the power grid and dirty, or incendiary bombs in the strategic oil reserve facilities...

It is so amazingly easy to cut the economic life lines of Red America.
A dedicated company sized group could do it, despite the near impossibility of somehow getting terrorists across the Tommy Ridge security of the border with say, a satchel of RDX a piece.
Or a container into the inland waterway with a dirty bomb, or nuke on board. But that could never happen in Bush Amerika, where we are all safe now.


Good luck, Red America. Sadly, I live right above the largest Transportation Nexus in Red America, I stand a pretty good chance of seeing the next al Qaeda offensive begin.

The citizens of Texas, Louisiana, Kansas, and Alaska will not be as keen to support this policy when their economy goes up in flames. They hurt our economy in a general way with NY. They have used the last four years to refine target selection and prep the attack.

Here we are, waiting, waiting... I suspect we won't have to wait long.
The symbolism of the moment is too rife, and they really cannot resist the added benefit symbolic effects on our psyche, now can they?

But this is all alarmist paranoia on my part. No one has ever brought down a government by killing its economic leaders or destroying its infrastructure before, right? All I am saying is that if you sit down and give yourself the resources of 20 dedicated people, and a 10 tons of Semitex, could you Completely Cheney your region's Red Elite?

If the answer is yes, then perhaps you should also make a plan for how you personally survive it when it happens.

"A dedicated company sized group could do it, despite the near impossibility of somehow getting terrorists across the Tommy Ridge security of the border with say, a satchel of RDX a piece.
Or a container into the inland waterway with a dirty bomb, or nuke on board. But that could never happen in Bush Amerika, where we are all safe now."

I'm sure they can get thru the Oregon coast. If they send someone ahead to monitor the movements of the lone trooper guarding the entire coast line, getting ashore undetected shouldn't be a problem.

As for how to get 10 tons of semtex, was it? to where it needs to be, just ship it in cargo containers. As Senator Kerry pointed out, 95% of those aren't inspected. Or use those containers for a dirty bomb, yes.

It is so scary, and so easy, how this could still be achieved, after 3 years of homeland security.

with redneck, nascar watching, bible thumping, snake handling, toothless, inbread, barefoot, hillbillies. I don't know if anyone has seen a county breakdown of red and blue voting areas, but if it wasn't for NY, Chicago, and LA, those states would have gone red as well. Out in Illinois I live in Grundy county and it went red. Will county which is right next to Grundy went red also and that county is filled with blue collar people. My guess is they are toothless, Nascar watching, bible idiots though.

Civil war V.2.0 is that there are very few Blue States and Red States.
Imagine something between Bleeding Kansas and the Mad Max movies, and you will have the first month of the civil war figured out.

There will be a fighting exodus of Red from the Cities and Blue from the Exurb and Countryside. They will not share the road well.

You, too must be a toothless, NASCAR watching bible idiot. Don't pick & choose your generalizations.

We need a national day of mourning.

I love New York. Keep the faith New Yorkers! :)

which might be some consolation. Osama is going for red next time I suspect. His message practically said as much.

Osama uses "state" the way we use "nation". It's of no use for him unless it's a target that has world-wide recognition. I can think of a few things he can do to damage America using the red states but I think it would be irresponsible to post.

No, NYC is the economic and creative heart of this nation, its great melting pot, its communications capital, its cultural and intellectual center, and our conduit to the international community. Osama realizes it. The goobers who voted for Bush don't. And they really don't understand that if you destroy this brilliant, tolerant, diverse city that serves as our nation's brain and economic engine, then the U.S. is finished.

I understand completely.

The entire city is walking around depressed and bewildered. I talked to a neighbor yesterday whose boss let their whole office go home early because everyone was too distraught to work.

Still miss it. Not least, the great number of Democrats.

Good wishes to all in the Apple tonight.

those damn koolaid drinkers who would throw our Country away because they are too damn delusional to investigate who they are voting for.

I feel so bad for New York City People and New Jersey. Especially if all those extra votes for bush were hacked by slimey pukes.

I am out here in CA in the bay area the other area that voted solid for Kerry. Doesn't it make you want to say split the states you take your and we will take ours? I am tired of sharing America with people who have such 50's mentality. It is 2004 for goodness sake!

I haven't watched the news in two days nor will I. I have no desire to see Bush's gloating face. But my mom emailed me today and said that Elizabeth Edwards has breast cancer that they found out yesterday. Boy why do things have to hit people when they are already down?

angry and you guys helped me really get in touch with it- and now i am finally fianlly really crying. i was the last one standing.
they used nyc like a cheap whore. they had it bathed and bound and gagged and painted bright for their diorama tragedy side show convntion .i t was so repulsive, i worked three blocks away and felt violated by dorky rich tourists. ... i am starting to think theres a lot of peole who were glad we were taken down a peg. i know it's not you guys, but shit...how can people hate us and love rudy or the chimp... how WTF??? i have to conclude they are fucking stupid dishonest people, users and ingrates. the welfare recipients resenting the noblisse oblige. i'm going to have to boycott these motherfuckers for a start..

It speaks of a woman's European friends talks about a newsstand selling French and Italain newspapers. New York and the rest of blue states are knowledgeable about the world community. The red states don't know 'bout much else than 'mericans who look like them.

of the local paper here in South Carolina (I'm not a native. I'm from a NYC suburb). The reader was complaining that the paper featured too many front page articles featuring world news rather than local stories.

with the Gropenator shooting off his mount about the "Losers"...meaning the democrats. I hope he keeps shooting off his mouth and his election chances in two years will be nill. I hope he gets the demos, that voted for him, really pissed.