Police used Taser gun to subdue 6-year-old student wielding piece of glass

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/10157579.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

Miami-Dade police tasered a 6-year-old boy who was wielding a piece of glass in a school office and threatening to hurt himself, officials confirmed Thursday.

Police say they followed their own guidelines and only tasered the child because they were afraid he would hurt himself. But the incident has raised calls for the department tighten its policies regarding the use of the stun guns, which shoot 50,000 volts of electric current through a subject.

The incident happened on Oct. 20 at Kelsey Pharr Elementary School. The principal, Maria Mason, called 911 after the child, who has not been identified, broke a picture frame in the assistant principal's office. Then the boy began waving the piece of glass around, holding a security guard at bay.

Two Miami-Dade police officers responded, followed by a school police officer. When they got there, the boy already had a cut under his right eye and another on his hand from the glass. The three officers talked to the boy, trying to get him to put down the glass, according to a police report.

<snip>

Then he cut his own leg and the officers acted. One officer shocked him with the Taser while the other grabbed him, preventing him from falling on the ground.

i have been hit with that before (and much worse)

Volts are a measure of potential difference, current (Amperes) is a measure of electron flow. To refer 50,000 volts of current is to mix two entirely different phenomena.

50,000 volts with only microamps of current is a mild shock. 100 volts with a high current can be deadly.

I'm sure you've had a static electricity shock before and lived to tell the tale. Although they may have a voltage in excess of 50,000 Volts, they are not deadly because the current flow is negligible.

The old adage in the Electrical Engineering field is that Volts jolt, Amps kill. Tazers don't carry enough current to kill any healthy human being.

Here's an exerpt of their FAQ:

4. ISN’T HIGH VOLTAGE LETHAL?

TASER is designed to produce a safer, but effective, electrical output.

The physiological effect of electrical shock is determined by: the current, its duration, and the power source that produces the shock. The typical household current of 110 volts is dangerous because it can pump many amperes of current throughout the body indefinitely. By contrast, the output of the ADVANCED TASER has been tested and shown to be safe; its power supply consists of 8 AA alkaline 1.5-Volt batteries capable of supplying 26 Watts of electrical power for only a few seconds.

5. WILL THE TASER CAUSE ELECTROCUTION?

No - TASERs are designed and tested to produce an electrical output that will not result in electrocution.

The output is metered by the electronics, and the electrical energy in each pulse is always the same, regardless of the target condition. In fact, the electrical output will not be transferred from one person to another even if they touch. Over 1,000 individuals have personally tested the ADVANCED TASER, and it has been shown that TASER use does not result in electrocution.

http://www.taser.com/facts/qa.htm#4


Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

when most police stopped carrying revolvers for a decade or two.

The point is 3 cops couldn't subdue a 6 year old without tasering him?

And this is still damn painful.

And people have died after being tasered.

Then we had a young woman die in Boston from a pepper pellet fired in to a crowd.

Sorry, I support the police but damn in their Star Wars protective uniforms, their over-reliance on taser guns and their other new control toys I think we do have some cops who lack communication skills with the public.

I think we're seeing some strange combo of a police state and Robocop.

As for using one on a child, it seems to me taking a glass shard from a kid would be almost the same, and just as easy as taking candy from a baby.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

Perhaps you might read this transcript from Jim Lehrer/PBS New Hour show on Stun Guns and contact the ACLU. They tell a different story about TASERs.

~snip~
LEE HOCHBERG: This summer, tasers have come under fire for being dangerous. In June, six suspects nationwide died in custody after being tased. In none of the cases was the taser definitively blamed, but 50 people now of the 30,000 who've been tased in the last three years have died shortly afterwards. The ACLU of Colorado's Mark Silverstein has demanded Colorado police consider the safety issue.

MARK SILVERSTEIN: The more of these deaths that occur, the less I'm willing to accept an explanation that says "these are all coincidences, that person would have died right at that moment without any law enforcement intervention or without the electro-shock weapons being operated."

~snip~
LEE HOCHBERG: The ACLU's Silverstein says most of those who have died had drugs in their system or a heart condition, and there've been no medical studies of the taser's effect on such people. Nor is there data on the human health effect of receiving more than one five-second jolt, as did Dontae Marks.

MARK SILVERSTEIN: This is a laissez-faire situation. Police rely on the assertions of safety that comes from the manufacturers, who have a profit motive, and I think that can be a potentially dangerous situation.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/july-dec04/stunguns_9-15.html

Mr. Lieberman joined a growing number of people, now at least 50, including 6 in June alone, who have died since 2001 after being shocked. Taser International, which makes several versions of the guns, says its weapons are not lethal, even for people with heart conditions or pacemakers. The deaths resulted from drug overdoses or other factors and would have occurred anyway, the company says.

But Taser has scant evidence for that claim. The company's primary safety studies on the M26, which is far more powerful than other stun guns, consist of tests on a single pig in 1996 and on five dogs in 1999. Company-paid researchers, not independent scientists, conducted the studies, which were never published in a peer-reviewed journal. Taser has no full-time medical director and has never created computer models to simulate the effect of its shocks, which are difficult to test in human clinical trials for ethical reasons.

What is more, aside from a continuing Defense Department study, the results of which have not been released, no federal or state agencies have studied the safety, or effectiveness, of Tasers, which fall between two federal agencies and are essentially unregulated. Nor has any federal agency studied the deaths to determine what caused them. In at least two cases, local medical examiners have said Tasers were partly responsible. In many cases, autopsies are continuing or reports are unavailable.

The few independent studies that have examined the Taser have found that the weapon's safety is unproven at best. The most comprehensive report, by the British government in 2002, concluded "the high-power Tasers cannot be classed, in the vernacular, as `safe.' " Britain has not approved Tasers for general police use.

A 1989 Canadian study found that stun guns induced heart attacks in pigs with pacemakers. A 1999 study by the Department of Justice on an electrical weapon much weaker than the Taser found that it might cause cardiac arrest in people with heart conditions. In reviewing other electrical devices, the Food and Drug Administration has found that a charge half as large as that of the M26 can be dangerous to the heart.

http://www.cephas-library.com/nwo/nwo_use%20of%20tasers_raises_safety_questions.html

Than 9mm, .40S&W, and 45ACP.

Hence less lethal.

They are not using them in place of guns. They are using them in place of adequate training and to intimidate the civilians. TASERs for crowd control is not my idea of a just police force.

It was used to prevent a kid from hurting/killing themselves or someone else. The child cut his face as well.

Better than a physical fight. The child could be injured or an officer could be hurt.

Tazers are not used for crowd control to my knowledge.

If it were my kid I would rather they be tazed than maced or taken down by an officer.

Particularly the case of the man who was TASERed for questioning why the police were arresting someone.

If it were my kid, I would angry as all hell. This is a six year old child were are talking about here with a piece of glass from a picture frame. It was not a deadly weapon and this use of force was out of proportion to the threat, in my opinion.

would disagree. They would have the option to charge the child in family court with assault. The case would be handled by DSS to determine if the child was getting proper care at home as well. The child obviously has some kind of emotional problem.

An edged weapon is dangerous. Take a picture frame and break it, and then jam it into your eye. You will be blind. Jab it in your neck and you will be dead in 15 seconds.(example, please do not stab your self)

The juvenile court judge quoted in the article agreed with me. Funny how that goes, isn't it?

~snip~
Retired Broward County Juvenile Judge Frank Orlando, who now runs a law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University, called the incident ``ridiculous.''

''It just sounds excessive to me to Taser gun a 6-year-old when everyone else around there were adults,'' he said. ``They couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid.''


You know a pen is a deadly weapon if you jam it in you neck as well. I don't support TASERing six year olds wielding pens either. Toothpicks can blind you if you jam them in your eye. You will be blind. TASER all toothpick wielders! Do you see how ridiculous this is getting?

to Disagree. Bottom line, kid not injured, officer not injured.

A video would be nice to see, that would allow for a more intelligent analysis.

I do respect your concerns however.

So, yes Virginia, they can be quite lethal.

Which I seriously doubt. Most six year old kids couldn't define an artery let alone locate one. This was unnecessary force. Period. He cut himself in the leg and THEN they decided to taser him? Why didn't they grab him while he was cutting his leg? Too busy watching him do it? :eyes:

sex offenders and been to a scene where a 7 year old shot his friend with a revolver, which he loaded, in the head. He was mad at him.

Did he understand the effect of his action, no. Did he have the capability to do the act, yes.

Sorry disagree.

Six year old sex offenders and kids with revolvers are not the same as a kid with a piece of glass from a broken picture frame. Tasering a child with a piece of glass in his hand is excessive force, IMO. Your take is obviously different.

My response was to the poster who said a 6 year old is incapable of killing/injuring himself with an edged weapon.

The child had cut his face and leg. The child suffered no further injury from the tazer, correct?

Getting close enough to taser him would've been close enough to throw a blanker or heavy coat over him to achieve the same result. And I stand by what I said, the risk of the taser on a child that young was greater than the risk he'd actually locate an artery in the moment it would take to disarm him. YMMV.

to a psych hospital. I respect your opinion. Disagree. The tazer is designed to incapacitate. Throwing a blanket on him may have made it worse. Bottom line the officer had to make a quick call and the child was not able to injure himself or others.

But if he isn't dead of heart failure he is fine, physically.

The article is misleading. It says 50kV of electric current. If the a 6 year boy offered about say 10k ohms of resistance, that is potentially 5 amps of current. I think the avg resistance of an adult is about 20k ohms so for an adult it would be about 2.5 Amps. However this assumes you can apply the voltage over the entire resistance which means the total power of the weapon must be pretty high. Hard to imagine that happening if it only uses 8 aa batteries.

I disagree Tasers are not lethal. I would think they can be if for no other reason then (inadvertently) setting up a disturbance in the electrical system of the heart for people that are susceptible.

Safety concern on police stun gun
12nov04

A MINISTERIAL advisory group expressed concern about the safety of stun guns before a Victoria Police trial of the weapons, a report obtained under Freedom of Information has revealed.

In the report obtained by a coalition of Victorian legal groups, the advisory group that discussed the possible introduction of Air Tasers said there was a lack of scientific evidence about their safety. <snip>

In its report, the ministerial advisory group said the use of Tasers had been found to increase the risk of miscarriage in pregnant women, heart attack and stroke in people with cardiovascular disease and sudden death in people taking drugs.

Other groups on whom a Taser should not be used included children, adolescents, older people and people with mental illness. <snip>

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11364399%5E1702,00.html


Man shot by stun guns dies
Deputies were subduing the Elk Grove resident, who was acting erratically.
By Ed Fletcher and Christina Jewett -- Bee Staff Writers
Published 2:15 am PST Tuesday, November 9, 2004

An Elk Grove man died early Monday in a confrontation with Sacramento County sheriff's deputies after officers used pepper spray and shot the man twice with 50,000-volt Taser stun guns.
Sheriff's officials said Ricardo Zaragoza struggled with four deputies who wanted to take him in for a mental health examination after his family called officials saying he was acting erratically.

The four officers who struggled to control Zaragoza were placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an internal investigation.

Sheriff's officials and family members said officers shot him twice in the chest with Taser guns. Family members, however, said officers used excessive force to control him. <snip>

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/11365575p-12280146c.html


Pueblo eyes police stun-down crackdown
Article Published: Tuesday, November 09, 2004

Pueblo - Police commanders are considering much stricter rules on when officers can use stun guns. <snip>

A man with no history of heart trouble died of a heart attack in 2002 after he was hit several times by police Taser guns, and Pueblo's Human Relations Commission has received complaints about police Taser use.

The policy changes are expected to be "significant," he said.

"It would be the same as when it's appropriate to shoot someone or use a baton on them. They have to be truly engaged in a dangerous crime or posing an immediate threat to officers, themselves or others," he said. <snip>

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2521973,00.html


Nov. 5, 2004, 9:35PM
Police back Tasers despite deaths
After the latest fatality, HPD and others call stun guns safer options
By LISE OLSEN and RHEA DAVIS
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

The death of a man in Fort Worth after being shot with an electrified dart this week has recharged debate about the safety of the increasingly popular stun guns. <snip>

The sudden death of 21-year-old Robert Guerrero on Tuesday is the state's third that occurred in police custody after the use of a stun gun, based on reports from the manufacturer and the media. <snip>

Guerrero's death occurred after Fort Worth police officers responded to a tip that someone was illegally running electrical lines into an apartment. They followed the lines, discovered Guerrero hiding in a closet and threatened to stun him if he didn't come out. Shortly after being zapped with 50,000 volts, Guerrero stopped breathing and died, said Fort Worth Police Department spokesman Lt. Abdul Pridgen. <snip>

Guerrero and a 22-year-old from Johnson County who died in September were both described as having used drugs before their deaths, based on media reports. But no autopsy report in Guerrero's case was available Thursday to confirm that. In the third Texas fatality, a 51-year-old Amarillo man with heart disease suffered a heart attack after being stunned in September 2003. <snip>

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/2885430

25 years as an EE. Have been shocked by all kinds of fun sources. Capacitors are my favorite..

Current kills by disrupting heart function or by tissue necrosis (destruction). Tazers do not send current across the heart they cause localized muscle contractions. People with existing conditions may die from this stress.

Obviously they do not have the amperage to cause necrosis.

EDIT: Remember going to the museum when you were a kid and playing with the big ball looking thing that made your hair stand up.

http://www.futurehorizons.net/high.htm

400k volts!

http://www.futurehorizons.net/high.htm

400k volts harmless. no amps, no path across heart.

6 or 12 volts across the heart pulsed will cause the heart to loose rhythm and fail.

Usually near six foot tall, often burly. I'm not surprised it took more than three cops to take him down.


/sarcasm

and treating youngsters like they're hardened felons or something? Something stinks in the state of Jeb.

Makes your heart ache...

What must be going on in this little boys mind / life is troubling.

Sadly there are small children (such as this one) that have had such turmoil throughout there short lives that have put them in a state of constant confusion and anger. I hate to see the state intrude in peoples lives, but this child needs help and I pray he is getting it.

Hoo Rah

And fight the Crusade in Pakistan in President Jeb Bushes 3rd Crusade for Christ to find the reprentative of Satan on earth--- Osama Bin Ladin A/k/a (we Bin Lookin 4U)

that he didn't get shot. Maybe he was small for his age.

here the L.A.P.D. would have shot him 19 times

How did this child get ahold of the glass in the first place? Why hadn't they placed this child in a separate environment? The child obviously felt threatened, and they should have dealt with the situation better. The use of the stun gun was pretty ridiculous, all around. There are children like this, and this does happen. Its just sad to see when it does.

I'm speechless.

...and got snapped at with the usual "it's better than getting SHOT" crap. We are constantly stereotyped as spineless and self-destructive, and it's people who can't see it coming, until it hits them, that back that sort of junk up.

Here's the rundown:
(1) A given community gets tired of crime
(2) The "bad apple" cops get trigger-happy
(3) The community gets tired of shootings
(4) The cops get tazers
(5) The "bad apple" cops get even MORE trigger-happy, because it's "non-lethal."

Of course, the missing step in that sequence is:

(3a) The "bad apple" cops get punished

But...but...*whimper*...maybe if we just submit, they-they-they might let us live...*snivel*

(screams, gets shot in the face with a wooden dowel at point-blank range)

Then the boy began waving the piece of glass around, holding a security guard at bay.

I don't get it - how does a 6-year old with a piece of glass hold a trained (?) security guard "at bay"? Obviously I don't know the full situation, and if the kid is holding the glass up to his own throat or eye or something, then perhaps the guard did the right thing by not getting physical...

or is that it? Perhaps the guard, fearing a lawsuit, decided it was safer not to touch the boy, because then the school would get sued for physical harassment or abuse?

I don't get it - where did our schools & culture go so wrong that we're even talking about this shit?

One 6 year old.

Maybe things went so wrong because instead of looking at reality right square in front of us, we side step and dance and make up excuses, like the ever present "junk lawsuit". Or, Bush is a Christian man and he'd never lie.

at a school with 6 year olds "Trained" may be the operative word. Likely a minimum wage rent-a-cop

that's it. :eyes:

the way to intervene. Fucking pigs never get it right.

I've lived there, it's a dirty, sun baked atmosphere, where laws are made to be broken.

this is just so sad.... that POOR kid, no matter how odd or mean the child was, he didn't deserve this, kid's probably been beat or molested or was very scared of something in the room.

cops... ggggggrrrr NO DONUT FOR YOU!

... some great values with such sweeping, profane generalities as "f***ing pigs never get it right".

WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

On edit:
SBD kids do not respond to power struggles. Cops inevitabley march in, pricked up like a pair of arrogant peacocks and engage in powerstruggles. Any de-escalation that you have been working on is IMMEDIATELY destroyed by the attitude that cops drag in with them. They all seem to think that they can march in with their badge and authority and rule by intimidation. They are nothing but disruptive.

I don't like it when Republicans say this-and-that about us (liberals, bleeding hearts, unpatriotic), or when racists make their generalizations ("they" just want money, "they" don't want to work, "they" are shiftless and dishonest, and so on). You're doing the very same thing for the same reason: you just don't like the police. There are a lot of cops in this country and no, they aren't all good ones. You seem to demand perfection, and that simply isn't going to happen. Your own words... "without exception"..."they all..." are ridiculous. I'm sure you can relate stories of police who didn't treat you right. I can tell you stories of how I wasn't treated right by civilians. That doesn't mean that I think all members of the community are bad. You'll still see the doctor when you're sick, or seek an attorney if you've been wronged, even though there are plenty of incompetents in both professions. Yet, you look upon just the police with this unmitigated disdain.

I get embarrassed when people go into this post-911 mantra about "you guys are heroes" and so on. I deserve no connection to the NYC police (and firefighters)just because I wear the uniform. For the same reason, I don't deserve a connection to the LA cops who beat up Rodney King, or any officer who violated his or her duties.

I worked with a population of 13-17 years olds, all of whom had been diagnosed SBD (this was ten years ago, so I don't know if that acronym is still being used for severe or serious behavior disorders).

We had a team of teachers and various levels of counseling staff. I was one of those who worked directly with the milieu. We saw everything that a cop would see on the street. I've been pissed on, spat upon, taken to the hospital after having a 16 year old with a concealed steel bar whack me across the temple (almost lost my eye).

When things would blow up, me and two others were the front line. We provided direct and immediate intervention and were trained to deescalate the most volitile situations and when necessary perform physical restraints.

Now, there were policies in place that required that law enforcement was called. Many times, this was simply for purposes of external documentation. I am NOT generalizing when I say that we dreaded having to bring in the police because no matter how successful your deescalation (the kid may have been sitting calmly in the director's office waiting for his parents), the police would march in with their uniformed machismo and escalate the situation all over again. I am not generalizing, I'm telling you my personal experiences.

Sorry if I offended you. As an aside, you are right, I don't like cops in general. I've never been in a situation where they helped me when I needed them, and in fact, I was involved in a situation where they were used against me in a 'preemptive strike' by my ex-wife several years ago. Of course, they had to let me go immediately after hauling my ass 'downtown' (when they found out that I had done NOTHING), but it's a little embarassing having throngs of cops intruding upon your personal property and hauling you away in front of the neighbors, NEVER LISTENING FOR A SECOND TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY. So yeah, you could say that I'm a little jaded.

Wisest words I have ever heard. Truest words I have ever heard.

you need them. Then they are great..

:eyes:

There are lots of different "values" in the world ya know?

Like SOCIETY helping kids like the one in the article.

But, under the Republican value system "the kids on his own" afterall where's his "personal responsibility" he's not gonna get "a hand out" from me, "why should MY precious tax dollars go to help that little #!@*" Yeah ... let's talk "VALUES" ...

I was referring to the gentleman who said he worked with those kids.

Sure police once in a while get things wrong, ok maybe quite a bit...but I'll be damned if there is any rule in any policeman's manual on how to treat a child psycho with broken glass.

If these red-state "accountable" parents had done their job with this kid, we wouldn't be in this mess.

:wtf:

I live in a blue state and believe me, we had more screwed up kids than you would believe.

The common denominator: fucked up parents. Always. Guess what? A healthy percentage of them were.... MORAL VALUES EVANGELICALS!!! SURPRISE!!!

... and volunteered to get shot by a Taser. The Taser is a great alternative to lethal force, but this is truly impossible to comprehend.

1. Deadly weapon. Check.
2. Unstable wielder. Check.
3. Willingness to hurt self or others. Check.
4. Likelihood that disarming suspect cannot be done safely either to officers or suspect. Check.

I think using the Taser was the correct call in this case.

something that doesnt happen here when stories like this make the news. All common sense and logic goes out the window.

The point is, Tazered or not, the child is alive. Nobody got hurt.

He was a danger to himself and others so the police HAD to intervene.

There is no pleasing this crowd...

Shoot someone legitimately, and everyone cries and bawls that the "fucking pigs" murdered someone.

Use Tazer (less than lethal option BTW) and everyone cries and bawls that the "fucking pigs" should have just got cut up trying to wrestle Junior to the ground.

If that had happened, you people would be crying and bawling that the "fucking pigs" manhandled a child.

Ignore the situation then everyone could bitch and bawl that the "fucking pigs" were lazy or didnt care or whatever.

My suggestion is that you "armchair police officers" get off your asses and go sign up for a local ride-along program with your police department, sheriff's department or other law enforcement agency so you can get a taste of what officers have to deal with on a daily basis before you pass judgement on what they should or shouldnt have done in a potential life/death situation.

Maybe you should get off your ass and go spend some time in a first grade classroom to see exactly how big and scary 6 year olds get.

3 adults could have taken that shard of glass away. If the cop gets cut a little, well, so what? You're talking about the welfare of a child vs. three adults. Tasering that kid held a very real risk of death for the child - this is an act of police brutality, and is not defensible. It's part of the national trend towards the general criminalization of being a child.

I wonder if you felt the same way. The child didn't die and it ended well.
:eyes:

at least a little bit. I think the average person who does not work, or at least have exposure to, troubled children does not understand the ferocity with which these children can attack. People think little kids can't really do much damage to themselves or others because they are innocent little kids. Unless you have seen the destructive force of a troubled child out of control, you really can't appreciate what is liable to happen. Especially if the child is showing a willingness to hurt himself to this degree.

My wife used to work with sex-offender youths. When they were acting out, some of them could be surprisingly strong and dangerous.

for psychiatrists/psychologists, we had cases where 3 and 4-year-old terrorized their entire families - even one case were a 3-year-old killed his newborn sibling out of jealousy. One family found their 5-year-old standing over them with a kitchen knife in the middle of the night. Another kid in the same age range destroyed his home, broke out windows, and such. From what I remember, these kids were usually born to drug-addicted and/or alcoholic mothers. Many were given up for adoption at birth and adopted into families who then discovered the kids were brain damaged, violent, and dangerous. What was frightening was that these were LITTLE kids. I know of at lease one of them who committed a murder as a teen and now is serving a life sentence.

I remember being horrified by the violence of these cute little kids and wondered how in the world they ever could be dealt with.

And I have been to both places: ride alongs as well as the classroom where significantly disturbed children do dangerous things.

Had that child succeeded in cutting himself on a major artery, and bled to death, you would be hollering for the heads of the police for not doing enough.

You're damned if you do...you're damned if you are saying from Tennessee, maybe from Texas....wha?

Where's my coffee. Sheesh

:donut:

I'm disgusted with the hate-filled messages that got posted about police. This is a side to some of the DU membership that's very disturbing. It reminds me of the bad old days during Viet Nam, when everything was cut-and-dried: the soldiers were baby-killers, the cops were pigs, anyone over 30 couldn't be trusted, peace protesters were traitorous commies.

DU'ers tend to decry neo-cons for their generalizations and stereotyping, but the truth is that it happens here with the same gusto.

Nevermind

:puke:

If the cops had acted differently, there was real and immediate possibility that the child would have injured himself in a life-threatening manner.

These cops did what they had to do to ensure the well-being of this child.

YAY AMERICA! VIVA BOOOSH!

It is a viable option. Article said he cut himself and that provoked the shock.

I would rather my kid be shocked than allowed to open up his carotid or femoral artery.

50k volts with no amps is like an electric fence used for horses or a shock collar for dogs. Non lethal unless you have underlying condition.

However in an attempt suicide it is viable IMHO.

TASERs are not a substitute for that. Unfortunately, they seem to be more frequently used that way.

Hey, if you don't mind your child treated like a "dog", that's your business. Personally, I think mentally disturbed children deserve a little better than that. Luckily, I know quite a few people who work in that field who agree with me.

If a child is in danger of killing themselves or injuring someone else use of a tazer is legitimate use of force. Allowing the child to hurt themselves or another person is not acceptable.

The primary goal is to prevent injury or death to the child or the other parties involved.

People get all worked up over, the officer did the kid a favor.

Now that you are not under pressure in that situation what is your solution. A physical fight, hitting their hand with a baton, pepper spray. All pose more physical danger than a tazer.

Seems that this was the best course, and the child was fkn wacko. Total red-state mentality.

This is a SIX-YEAR-OLD KID. He has probably been through more than you can even imagine; he does not deserve to be dismissed as "fkn wacko." He needs *help.*

Tucker

Just wondering given the weight, size, and age of a "target" can they change the setting before tazing an individual?

The only option is the duration of the shock.

fellow officers because they had to use a taser gun on a 6 year old.

Tomorrow, he would probably have feloniously lifted up a girl's dress away.

They should have killed the future rapist.

The had to call a cop? The couldn't just take the glass away from him? Is that what I am hearing here? Wait till he's 14 then, they will shoot him dead in the streets. I would hate to thinkthis 6 year could bully all of the adults. I'd pull my kid out immediately, obviously no adults running the school ! After I slapped around a few so called educators who called the cops ! And slapped a lawsuit on both Police and school !

A six year old is a baby. Did you call a cop when a baby tried to stick something in the light outlet? What should have happened...You walk over and grab the child take the glass away and call an ambulance for medical attention and HRS to report the incident. You don't beg. You save the kid, if you get cut, oh well, you go to the doc too, whatever the problems the child has were just increased 10 fold by a shot by a taser gun ! I worked for FDLE..they were put in a bad spot but still.....I am a Mother and and a grandmother. My 5 year old once knocked me in the head with a hammer. ONCE ! Thats all it took. Attention getter. They are still developing. There should have been one adult able to get control of the child.

... in relation to another thread about the kid who got busted.

am troubled with the notion of using a taser on a child. However, I have worked in special education a long time, and I have seen firsthand what six-year-old child can do, how strong they can be when they're enraged. There were cases in my old school that people wouldn't believe. There are a whole lot of highly disturbed children in our society.

I haven't seen video of it, and I wasn't there, so I won't suppose that I know better than the adults who responded in this situation. If the child was enraged enough to break a picture, pick up the glass, and start cutting himself, he was pretty pissed off.

and one other person doing the old "watch me make this quarter disappear" routine as a distraction.

children are children. not tazer-worthy. there is NO compassion being taught to cops nowadays. it's ALL about protecting the cop. f*ck, i bet they'd use a shotgun on a squirrel. i use leather gloves and nab them out of my house every time my cat brings one through the cat-door.

"Police say they followed their own guidelines and only tasered the child because they were afraid he would hurt himself."

"You see Billy, he was trying to hurt himself. Only the police are allowed to hurt him..."


GD /aka DWolfman

might die, but such is the price of protecting our precious liberty and freedom.

including law enforcement. ESPECIALLY for law enforcement.

So when you're getting the crap beat out of you by a crazed but unarmed crackhead, I'll call your neighbor outside to use HIS Taser because I wasn't allowed to carry one.

Sounds good to me!

:crazy:

having a less than lethal option.

Way to go.

Would that cop have shot that 6 year old with the piece of glass with a gun if he or she had not had the taser? Probably not. And, more than likely, they could have handled that kid with no one getting seriously hurt.

I don't believe in non-lethal weapons for the police force for that reason. I think that, especially in the heat of the moment, and the adrenaline is pumping, they are more likely to use the "non deadly" force at hand when it really isn't warranted, thinking "well, it won't kill them." In other words, I don't think it makes US any safer when the police have non-deadly methods like tasers on their person at all times. Crowd control when mobs are expected? Yeah, okay, if it is found that they are effective. Other than that, no.

<snip>

Miami-Dade School Board Vice Chairman Robert Ingram, who spent 20 years as a Miami police officer and more than five years as Opa-locka police chief, said board members were not told of the incident. He learned of it from a reporter.

''The question is: You're standing there and what will provide the greater injury -- my trying to get the glass from him or using the Taser?'' Ingram said. ``It seems like the greater harm would come from the Taser.''

He was concerned about using a Taser on a young child.

''We've heard of people having heart failure with a Taser,'' he said. ``What happens when you hit a 6-year-old with an adult dose?''

In September, a Broward County attorney died after being shocked with a Taser by Miami police. Autopsy results have not been released, but police believe he died of a drug overdose.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/10161183.htm

Stun gun's effect on kids potentially dangerous

Zapping a 6-year-old with 50,000 volts of electricity could cause permanent damage to the heart depending on the size of the child and other genetic factors, an expert in pediatric cardiology said.

''It is clear that certain electrical shocks in a susceptible child at the right dose can certainly cause the death and damage of heart muscle cells,'' said Dr. Steven Lipshultz, chairman of pediatrics at the University of Miami School of Medicine. ``But it really varies from child to child and dose to dose of electricity.''

He said he didn't have enough information to comment on police use of Tasers on children. He was not aware of any case of a Taser doing permanent harm to a child.

But, he said, the destruction of heart muscle cells from electrical current can have long-term implications for some children.

''If you destroy a heart muscle cell, it doesn't grow back,'' Lipshultz said. ``If a child lost enough heart muscle . . . when they grow up, it could put them at risk.''

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/10161214.htm

Police Report

http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/taserreport.pdf

Certainly the situation could have been diffused with empathy and common sense. This is a six year old child! If someone did that to my child, I would raise more hell that all of the Florida hurricanes combined. The principal and the officers involved should be fired.

Officers must demonstrate greater judgment when using deadly force. Good judgment is the most important part of the job. The principal is a child care professional. It is reasonable to expect that a person in that position would be able to deal with a six year old child.

Is there a sense in the law enforcement community that the Tasers can be used as an option of first resort? Are they generally being used more often that is absolutely necessary?

... in what some state's call a Use of Force Continuum. On the low end is verbalization, escalating up to lethal force. A Taser is not deadly- or lethal- force. It is less-than-lethal force, somewhere in the area of pepper spray or a baton strike. There is no requirement that an officer begin with verbalization; it depends on the situation.

Yes, Tasers are being used a lot and there is some information starting to come out that suggests that some uses have not been justified. That does not mean they should be outlawed; it means there should be better training so officers understand the parameters for its use more clearly. Tasers can be a great tool when dealing with people who will harm themselves or others, are not affected by pepper spray, can't be restrained safely.

Screw the six year olds </sarcasm>