A matter of faith, not science

The Ku Klux Klan is a terrorist group. It was organized in 1865 for the purpose of controlling and oppressing newly freed slaves through intimidation, violence and murder.

Not many people will argue with that. Historians in particular will find the statement uncontroversial.

But 10 years ago in Vicksburg, Miss., I learned an alternative view. Vicksburg was an especially stubborn stronghold of Confederate sentiment during the Civil War — refused to celebrate the Fourth of July again until 1944. Small wonder, then, that a museum there featured an exhibit claiming the Klan was actually formed to save the South from corrupt black governments and that, while "many people suffered, some no doubt innocently," the night riders sought only to "restore some semblance of decency."

It's a lie, of course, but it's a lie some of us believe. So here's the question: When we teach schoolchildren about the Klan, must we give equal time to this view? Are we required to treat it as if it has the slightest credibility?

Or would that not be an affront to scholarship itself?

It's science, not history, that went on trial last week in Harrisburg, Pa., but the questions still apply. Parents are squaring off in federal court over a local school board's requirement that before children can be taught Charles Darwin's theory that humanity evolved from lower animals, teachers must read a statement acknowledging "alternative" theories of human origin. This would include the so-called theory of intelligent design, which holds that living things are so fantastically complex, they can only have been invented by some supernatural creator.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002534612_pitts02.html

I have no problem with presenting the concept of ID as long as it's presented as ONLY a concept and belief and NOT a matter of fact....the truth is we do not KNOW how the universe, or existance began. I think discussions about the origin of existance, rangining from what scientific eveidence has shown to pure theology are valuable. I firmely believe taht until both scientists and theologits are willing to discuss matters such as these in an open and direct manner, we will never actually discover a true, grand unified theory. To me personally, the thing that is going on right now is that no one, not even physicists, want to discusss what happened BEFORE the big bang. They only want to discuss THIS particular cycle of existance.

Maybe you should (re)study some physics and especially relativity.

Time and Space are integrated and interdependent and were both 'created' by the Big Bang. There is no 'before' the Big Bang because there is no existence of time any more than there is of space.

Either you are rejecting the Big Bang theory, the essentials of contemporary physics, or have invented your own 'time'.

And I suspect a real scientist would be more inclined to use a spell checker.

is that this particular big bang was only one in a series of many eternal big bangs. Please explain to me where the "stuff" of this particular big bang came from, and why no one seems to want to discuss it.

Fair enough. But don't call it science until you're actually ready to present a theory that includes reality and predicts something that can be tested.

And you clearly do not have the most primitive understanding about contemporary theories of space, time, matter, and the Big Bang. There is no 'stuff' (whatever you mean by that) until the Big Bang when the Universe is created - it's not stored somewhere and then poured in.

Exactly what kind of 'scientist' are you - as you claimed in your first post in this thread ?

Not everyone has the same view of the nature of the universe. There may not even be such a thing as reality; everything might just be personal perception.

In terms of "proving" something, math is a human created system. Just because something can be "proven" mathmatically doesn't make it "cosmically" true; WE created the system and WE made all the rules!

I used the term "stuff" simply because I wanted this discussion to be understandable to everyone. As to my background, I taught post graduate theoretical physics for 24 years at Cambridge University. Stephen Hawking was my boss.

Basically saying Quantum mechanics seeming to indicate that human being actually created the Universe by the act of observation. The author left a Deity out of it. Just used That wave and particle thingy as the premise and went on from there.
Basic psychology as well as any anatomy and physiology course teaches that the brain interprets all information. Of course we create our own "reality" The fact that we basically have 2 functional brains (left and right) that communicate with one another just adds spice to the whole concept
I thought mathematics was language that explains the universe the best way we can understand it. It's my personal favorite anyway.

what I am saying. I don't claim to have any truths; just theories based on more than 20 years of experience in the field.

Nothing wrong with mathematics, as long as you realize it is a HUMAN created language; a system of communication.

Poster "Spinzonner" sounds a lot like George Bush to me; someone that, depending on the occassion, claims to know absolute truth, and than chooses to play God.

I think he should chill out, rent a copy of "What the Bleep", and have a beer.

Is to see what happens next...
The possibilities are endless. String theory, bubble universes--I am NOT good at math. But I love playing around with the theories of those who are....
Even in health care, which is where I work, things move fast these days. Not so much cures, although many are in the works, but treatments. The whole autoimmune field is exploding. Why does the body attack itself? To say nothing of genetic mapping...

I know physics often raises more questions than it answers, but they are soul shaking questions, and they drive us forward...

Remember vancomycin, the ultimate dragon slayer? Bacteria rule the Earth and bacteria will inherit the Earth.

There is a greater mass of bacteria in the soil at this moment than the mass of all the structures man has built on Earth during his time here.

Bacteria rules the Earth.

My 7 year old grandson was immune to pennicillin when he was born.

The possibilities for insects and amphibians may be endless, but the prospects for mammals is decidedly more limited.

In health care we are making strides. In certain areas it lot has to do with unraveling genetics.

As I understand it, the earth's atmosphere evolved around bacteria or cyanobacteria, provided it a hospitable environment in which to grow.

In health care we fight off infections that are not going away every day including MRSA, and VRE. It's going to get worse, I know

What I was trying to say, obviously not well, is that physics, especially quantum mechanics, hint at incredible possibilities.

...then how would you know reality if it does exist? When you entertain the possibility of what you percieve as reality may not actually exist, does anything else even matter? Maybe everything we know about the KKK is just personal perception, so we should give every dissenting view a voice because there may be no such thing as reality? Should we also teach kids the earth may actually be flat (doesn't it look flat to you?) because even though science and mathematics show the earth is round math and science are human constructs so there's really no way to know for sure.

The bottom line is: don't teach anything. Let people believe what they want - there's no way to prove or disprove their facts.

Scary...

The bottom line is: don't teach anything. Let people believe what they want - there's no way to prove or disprove their facts.

Scary...


That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is we do not actually KNOW if there is such a thing as fact. We act on our own personal beliefs.

Experience ISN'T fact. You can put the key in the car hand have it start 10,000 times in a row, but that does NOT make it absolute that it will start the 10,001st time. We base our beliefs on genetics plus personal experience, but each event is an individual thing.

What we take to be fact, and what becomes a rule is decided on by society, not by scientific proof.

I find it far better to have an open discussion on all matters than to to simply let "fact" be established through money and power.

is like presenting the view that the Holocaust did not happen. It amounts to a whitewashing of history or denial of the truth. I feel the same way about ID. It simply does not hold up under any objective criteria as a scientific theory. If you want to teach alternative views of creation then we also need to present the creation myths of all cultures. But they should only be taught as comparative religion, not as science.

"There may not even be such a thing as reality; everything might just be personal perception."

Perception is a very specific term and has a very specific meaning. Are you sure you want to use this word in your argument?

If reality doesn't exist then what do you perceive? Is it just your imagination? And in what realm does that imagination exist?

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"... math is a human created system. Just because something can be "proven" mathmatically doesn't make it "cosmically" true; WE created the system and WE made all the rules!"

The proof that addition works, that 1+1 = 2, is one of the fundamental proofs of mathematics. Do you deny that this proof of pure logic is applicable throughout the cosmos?

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"I taught post graduate theoretical physics for 24 years at Cambridge University. Stephen Hawking was my boss."

Hey, nobody likes a name dropper. Please give us some citations so we can check your credentials.

First, I was ASKED what my credentials were; I did not "drop names", as you put it.

Second, there is NOTHING we know or can prove with absolute certainty beyond "what is", or what some might call God. We only have a perception of what that is. Math, linguistics and everything else we use in an attempt to understand the universe and communicate with each other is man made.

No matter how much evidence we have, ultimately everything is a matter of faith.

The problem with stopping for a meal at a truck stop is that the vegetables, which started the day at 10 AM as sliced pieces of tomatoes, carrots, broccoli and corn in a pot are, by 1 PM, cooked down into a such a mush that the pieces not only look the same but taste the same. This is usually caused by too much heat and too much stirring.

Those who work hard to define and describe the fine detail in our world can fall into a state where the grammar and symbols that let us communicate about the world become more prominent than the objects they describe. The result is that process easily overwhelms purpose and all the things that make up reality end up looking the same and feeling the same. This is usually caused by too much heat and too much stirring.

You still haven't answered the questions I posed to you.

meet the criteria for scientific theory. Evolution has been deemed to meet the criteria for not only a scientific theory by credible scientists, it utilizes what we know about the universe. ID utilizes the personal beliefs of what people do not know.

Evolution is less about how the universe began and more about how it has changed, or evolved. A point that ID assidously avoids.

What happened before the Big Bang is metaphysics because the physical rules of this universe break down as one examines what is known about the beginning of time. The particle soup that defines an atom starts getting clumpy and the four basic forces begin to merge. Time and space go through some strange gyrations as well. Planck time (look it up) determines the limits of what science can reveal. Trying to speak about things prior to that time is why metaphysics is called metaphysics. It's a distinct discipline that is taught in an intellectual context that is different from science and uses methods that are different from those of science.

Trying to blend metaphysics and science is probably the best way to damage both disciplines. The mark of an educated man in these fields is the knowledge of the boundaries between the disciplines.

Scientists properly speak about only "this particular cycle of existence" because that is all that they can honestly discuss. It truly comes down to the matter of honesty. Metaphysicians, on the other hand, aren't constrained by the rules of nature and "this particular cycle of existence" and are, therefore, free to blow smoke in behalf of whatever bullshit they may be feeding on this week.

I hope this clears it all up for you.

Now, I do understand what you are saying about presenting ID in the classroom as a "concept". We do not know the full story of the universe, and cannot be 100% certain that it is wrong, or that our current theories are correct (undoubtedly they are wrong to some extent). However, if you present ID in SCIENCE class, then just think of the Pandora's box you have opened. You are presenting a concept that is, by definition, impossible to disprove. Now where are we?

Not to mention that other groups with similar "concepts" (read as: stories) will demand equal time. Should we present the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory?? Why not? Surely you aren't saying that ID is more reasonable because there are more people who believe it! That is hardly a scientific measure of anything.

So, if you think it is ok to present ID in SCIENCE class, then where would you draw the line on what is acceptable to teach?

"Since I'm too stupid to ever understand this, it must be too complicated for anyone...else...ever...

1. Some things we can't currently explain.

2. Some of the things we can't currently explain we'll never be able to explain.

3. Therefore, God Did Those Things.

Problem with one: Might be true. Might not.

Problem with two: How do you know something is unexplainable ever? Since you can't know that, number two is false.

Problem with three: Bad logic and worse theology. Once upon a time, we didn't know where thunder came from. So we had a God of Thunder, Thor. Since then, we have learned where thunder comes from. So now Thor is a Comic Book character. The problem with the God of the Unexplained (God of the Gaps) is what happens to God when it gets explained. Will Yahweh become a comic book character also?

As the Norse God of Thunder! Let's slay some Storm Giants!! Loki Beware...FOR ASGARD!!!

Damn, I miss Thor...I hope Marvel brings him back soon...

Any reduction in the inexplicable represents a devaluing of god.

To encouage critical thinking however, a teacher could, say, ask a student to write a paper on the roots of the klan. If the student discovered that view, he could certaintly add it. It would make for interesting discussion. Easily debunked, since the Klan has a fairly clear history and agenda.

or different interpretations of events but that does not mean that they both deserve equal standing in defined categories such as scientific study. There is nothing scientific about I.D. (Creationism) and therefore does NOT belong in science class. This is not a matter of being open minded or allowing for a debate, this is a matter of only teaching science in science classes.

and those that push the teaching of it are lazy as well.

There is no theory, no science, no nothing in it except, "Well, hell! We can't figure it out so it must be done by an intelligent being (but don't call it God!)."

What a load of crap. Famous dead scientists are turning over in their graves right now. For this junk to actually be where it is in our national discussion is frightening. It is one more variable in the equation that spells out this nations eventual downfall.

I had a friend try to explain to me the other day why ID is so important for us to teach in schools, and how it makes so much sense. I asked her how it squared with her science education in college. "Oh, I didn't go to college and I didn't really like science in high school." Our problem, it seems, is dealing with ignorance. The ID snake oil salesmen are pushing this pseudo-scientific junk on a bunch of gullible people who have had limited or no scientific training, and they are gobbling it up! With ID they don't have to stretch their minds..."God did it! Hallelujah!"

Just 5 years of total GOP rule, and this country is on life support. Fucking great.