Spying: How far is too far?

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22693

You know, maybe the president is telling the truth, maybe the NSA is only trying to identify terrorist phone call “patterns.” Repeated calls to Jihad ’R Us? I have no idea. But maybe this is as far as it will ever go.

But if it goes beyond this, at what point do we say, “Enough”?

Or do we ever say that?

For it strikes me that this was the very thing the Founders had in mind when they wrote the Fourth Amendment into the Constitution in the first place. I’m sure there were plenty of colonists back in the day who would have gladly let British troops rummage through their things.

After all, they had nothing to hide.

Sooner or later you learn that just because you have nothing to hide doesn’t give your government the right to check and make sure.

I suppose many people aren't really concerned about the government looking for terrorists. This is what spies use technology for. Thing is, I don't trust that that is all they are doing. There in lies the rub.

If they (BushCo) have nothing to hide then why the lies and the secrecy? Why not be upfront about it? And don't give me that BS that they don't want to let the terrorists know what they're up to.

Does anyone honestly believe that the terrorists don't suspect their call are being monitored? Duh. I doubt anyone gave away the store by making this phone number tracking public.

Mz Pip
:dem:

..but really dense piece

http://billmon.org/archives/002440.html

in which he basically makes the point that this is the system mindlessly propelling itself forward rather than anything necessarily intended as nefarious - at least by those at the very top.

No one seems to understand how this technology might be abused. Tell the wingers: Imagine HILLARY had the ability to track all your phone calls.

When you send a letter through the USPS, you put it in a envelope. Not because you have anything to hide, but because you have an expectation of privacy in your communications. And traditionally we have treated that expectation to privacy via postal communications as sancrosanct under US law. Our electronic communications should be no different.

But with the latest revelations about NSA domestic intelligence gathering and the phone companies we learn that they were buying the external data about our phone calls (communications) from the phone companies. This is a bit of a gray area. The ability to collect and analyze that external data on such a massive scale is relatively new. It wasn't something that was forseen when laws regarding privacy and phone communications and wiretapping were implemented. And in that sense I'm not sure it's illegal. If someone has a reference on the use of external data by law enforcement agencies and its legality, please let me know. However, the fact the NSA was doing I think is illegal. They're not supposed to be collecting intelligence on American citizens within the U.S. But I'm no lawyer.

On top of it all though, Bush lied. Furthermore, I'm not sure the data is being used for the purpose Bush said its' being used for. Even with data mining you have to have some idea of what you're looking for, otherwise the patterns you turn up are relatively meaningless. And we already know that the Bush administration is prone to massaging the data to fit their preconceived "facts". Coupled with the demonstrated incompetence of top administration officials and key appointees I think it's dubious whether this could ever be of use for the stated purpose.

So it begs the question, just what are they using it for?