Auntie's Automobile Advice

Dear Auntie Pinko,

My 1991 Ford Taurus needs nearly $2,000 worth of work to keep running, and it has over two hundred thousand miles on the odometer. I’m finally facing the reality that I’ll have to invest in a new car. I hate the thought of contributing to the whole mess that the oil industry and the auto industry have gotten us into but there isn’t any way I can commute by public transport (there isn’t any,) the distance is too great to bike, and I frequently need to drive during the day to meetings, etc., so I can’t really car pool.

My boyfriend thinks I should get one of the new hybrids, but that would mean taking on a big debt, a long wait, and a hefty monthly payment. My mom thinks I should lease because new cars lose their value so quickly, the payment would be smaller, and I might be changing jobs next year and could possibly take the bus if I moved to town. I want to “buy American,” too, but there doesn’t seem to be any decent American car that gets high gas mileage and is actually made in America.

If you needed a new car right now, what would you buy, Auntie?

Becky,
Bayport, MN


Dear Becky,

Auntie isn’t the best person to ask for advice about car purchasing! I’m afraid I don’t pay much attention to all the television programs, magazines, websites, etc., that review cars and provide information about them for consumers. That’s a huge industry in itself. But if I was in your position, that’s where I’d start.

I wish we all had the option of convenient, affordable public transportation, but the power of the auto industry and the oil industry in the 1940s and 1950s influenced public priorities to abandon any transport options other than the Interstate Highway system. Someday, historians might regard that as one of the greatest mistakes our nation ever made, but it seemed to make sense at the time.

The entire structure of our economy remains largely based around the assumption that individual personal transport is accessible to nearly everyone. Our cities are built that way and our businesses operate that way. People make their decisions about where they want to live in a nation composed of communities that were shaped by that assumption. An enormous weight of existing physical infrastructure, economic interdependence, and cultural tradition is standing in the path of change, and no matter how clear it may be that the old model doesn’t work anymore, the transformation to a new model will be neither quick nor painless. In the mean time, it leaves people like you with dilemmas like this. You want to do the right thing for the community and the future, but you also need to do the right thing for you.

I certainly don’t know enough about cars to make recommendations about make or model. But I referred your dilemma to a niece who is a very savvy financial planner, and I’ll try to pass on what I learned intelligibly:

First off, she says, a new car is not necessarily a good investment, depending on your situation. A good used car is often a better financial strategy if you can spare the time and effort to locate one that will meet your needs. First decide generally what you want. If Auntie were buying a car, for example, I would look for cars that scored high on safety, gas mileage, and low maintenance costs. My next priority would be cargo space (I’m a gardener and often need to haul bags of mulch, bales of straw, etc.) I don’t drive a lot, most of my trips are short, and I rarely have passengers, so I prioritize comfort much lower, and ‘performance’ (going fast, taking curves at speed, power on the hills, etc.) not at all.

With that in mind, I’d check the Internet for comparative reviews of car models three to five years old. Most new cars shed their “premium value” in those first three years, so if you look in that range the price no longer reflects that premium. Once I had a good idea of the models that best met my needs I’d start looking for the commonest ones on a couple of the Internet’s many used-car shopping sites. And I’d invest a few dollars in one of those services that runs a VIN (vehicle identification number) check on cars and gives you information about its history, so I could avoid cars from flood areas, cars that have been in major accidents, and other ‘red flags.’ I might also invest in one of the Consumers Union’s packages that help buyers understand prices, trade-in values, and other factors in car buying.

None of that would guarantee me against getting a lemon, of course, but they’d certainly reduce the risk and give me confidence in my decision-making process. That’s about as much as I could ask.

My niece also recommends very strongly that you arrange your financing before you go to the dealer. If you can’t pay cash all at once, you’re still better off with a loan from your own credit union or bank than with most dealer financing.

As long as you are thoughtful in your decision making process, Becky, you’ll be doing better than a lot of us who just do the easy thing without taking the time to think. Keeping your concern for the environment in mind as you make a car purchase is one way to make a positive step. Don’t underestimate the importance of such thoughtfulness, even if you can’t act on it in a dramatic way for this particular decision.

You can take your concern a step further by writing a short letter to the editor of your local paper expressing your concern about the lack of options in your area. You can schedule one or two days a week without meetings and try to arrange a carpool for those days. You can stay in touch with what your elected representatives are doing to move change along in the right direction, and give them your feedback from time to time. Do your best to balance what’s practical with your ideals, and keep striving to do just a little bit more. Best of luck with your car purchase, and thanks for asking Auntie Pinko!

because the second you turn the key in the ignition of that shiny new car, you've just decreased its resale value by a huge amount. If you can't pay cash and need to take out a loan, that key turn will cost you about three times what the depreciation is over the life of that loan. That doesn't happen with a used car.

I'm an old hand at buying used cars, and there are several additional tips I can give. First, look at the interior. If it's in rough shape, that car has been all over the road and the odometer reading may not be reliable. Second, consider what kind of driving you do. If you drive few inner city miles, that cheaper SUV that's being sacrificed because those things are just not selling may actually be the better deal. If you're commuting 30+ miles to work, it's a terrible deal. Wait for an econobox you can live with to show up. Third, consider the total cost of those hybrids, which means the battery replacement cost as well as the cost to the environment of even recycling those batteries. Fourth, copy the VIN number down and check that puppy online, make sure it's not from NO. Flooded cars have turned up all over the country, being sold as good used cars. Flood damage is hidden damage, but it'll jump up and bite you eventually, especially the crap in the heating system.

Finally, it's always better to buy a used car from a dealership. They're more expensive than from some joker in the want ads, but those cars will be fixed if you notice anything wrong during the test drive and they often come with a limited warranty, usually 3 months but some stretch it to 6.
They can help with financing and paperwork, too.

My own best advice is to get a used car with decent gas mileage, whether foreign or domestic. There are great numbers of websites out there that will tell you what the consumer complaints have been like on all economy cars, and that will enable you to narrow the field of what cars you'd find acceptable.

Good luck, and I hope you find something suitable quickly.

We bought a 2001 Camry that was "Toyota certified." A few weeks ago its engine blew, and is being replaced. Things are constantly going wrong with it. We and our daughters own three other Toyotas, and we've been Toyota owners for decades. They're usually decent, but this Camry is garbage.

When Toyota puts out a lemon, they put out a lemon.

Decent gas milage. Made in America. They have all depreciated as much as they ever will.

And, boy, they sure are cute. Gotta have one to go out for McDonald's after the big disco dance. Got a Malboro? And pass me another Bud, willya, Bud. Tee hee. Only put premium Exxon in this baby. Tiger in the tail. Runs better, longer, stronger. Advertising? Don't pay no attention to that.


Here's a real creampuff example. One-owner. This one's for you?

DANGER! UNEXPLODED PINTO

I feel the need to point out, as the owner of a 1978 mustang (though not that model), that as much as those were certainly underpowered, they save the mustang for Ford.
Remember the oil crisis of the 1970's? And the EPA standards that took effect in that same time? Ford redesigned the mustang in 1974 to meet those new standards for mileage and emissions. If it weren't for the shorter, pinto-based mustang of that time, the mustang would have likely been scrapped altogether (or reborn as a FWD car like the new cougar).
While many people didn't like the introduction of the 2.3L four cylinder in 1974, it had to be done. And it was kept until 1994 when they finally were able to get v6 economy and emissions up to standards to serve as a base engine.

Oh, and the exploding gas tank that the pinto was known for was not a problem present in the 74-78 mustangs. While the chasis was the same between the two, the gas tank and bumper layout was different.

:)

And I get great service from it. Burns regular and gets considerably better mileage than an SUV. Built in South Bend Indiana by Americans - for Americans. :wink:

Honda Fit new... if you can find one.

I just bought one. Plenty of carrying space. 33 to 38 mpg. Nice price tag.

My old '84 got 43 mpg, and my wife's '89 got high-30's mileage, albeit with a little more town driving than I did with the '84.

Before we made our decisions on our current cars I created an Excel spreadsheet grid with mileage by cost per gallon times the average number of miles we drive in a year to estimate the annual fuel costs. The results can be kind of startling, and you may discover the savings per year of super-high mileage don't amount to as much as you might think. For example, assuming 10,000 miles per year and gas prices of $4 per gallon, 50 versus 40 mpg amounts to only 50 gallons, or $200 savings per year. If you're making a choice between a $10,000 used Civic and a $25,000 new hybrid, even at $4 per gallon it will take you 75 years to make up the difference, and that's not taking into account the interest on the loan (or alternatively the interest earnings on the $15,000 savings over all those years), which would further reduce the financial benefit of the hybrid to you. Even 30 mpg versus 50 at $4 gas doesn't save all that much.

the difference between 50 mpg and 40 mpg is only 5 tankfuls of gas per year? I'm assuming a 10 gallon fill up here. I find that hard to believe.

My husband recently traded in a Nissan Xterra for a Honda Accord and only needs to fill his car once a week instead of twice a week. Of course, he's driving about 60 miles per day to and from work, so it's somewhat more than 10,000 miles per year, but the very first week with the Honda he noticed the difference. I'd had to twist his arm somewhat to get him out of the Xterra, and the only reason he was willing was the rising cost of gas. He was convinced he needed the bigger car, but discovered to his pleasure that the Honda had as much cargo space as he needed. He does miss being higher up on the road, but has noticed how vastly more maneuverable his car is, especially in bad weather.

We bought a used 2000 Honda Civic from a dealer in 2002 for about 10 grand. Pretty nice car, great gas mileage (30+mpg...highway I can get into the high 30's) and now four years later it's still worth over 7 grand so it hasn't really depreciated too badly. We could take it in and turn it around for a good portion of the cost of a 'new' slightly used Civic, but I'd rather finish paying it off and have a car that'll last me another decade with minimal issues.

get a decent civic hatch from 93-95...
I have a 90 CRX. I swapped in the more powerful japanese domestic market motor and still get 30-35 miles per gallon.
With the stock motor I got 46 miles per gallon once (O.K. it was going across Ohio on the turnpike) but 35 miles per for combined city/hiway driving was the norm.

I bought a 94' three years ago, for $2k, put in another $2000 in repairs and it runs like a charm.

It was still running great, with 160K miles, but the AC died and there were a few little problems that needed addressing. Going without AC is not an option in Louisiana, so I made the decision to part ways. I don't know what the dealer did with it, but if it were repaired then someone got a very reliable car for just a couple thousand.

at least is built in America, not sure about Accord or Taurus.

Camrys built in 1997-2001 have a problem with oil sludging that destroys the engine.

Some other cars, including certain years of the Sienna and Lexus, also have this problem in their engines. Also, some other auto manufacturers have oil sludge issues.

Here's one link:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/maintenance-accessories/engine-sludge-1205/overview/index.htm

problems with every car I've ever owned, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

It was built in America. Starting to need some minor repairs, but so far I've only had to replace the battery, tires and, (twice), muffler. All the lights are original, if you can believe that.

Assembled in america NOT built.

five drivers in my household into second-hand Hondas in the 15months. They're all stick shifts, and there was a piece just this morning on NPR about how standard transmissions go five to ten percent farther on a tank of gas. So if you don't already drive a stick, learn now.

Actually, these days many new cars simply don't lose that much value the first time they're driven off the lot. Nonetheless, a relatively low-mileage used car with a good maintenance history is your best bet.

I have found that shopping for a used car is surprisingly easy and fun. There's so much information out there on the internet that it's transformed dealerships. They all cheerfully hand over the Carfax report.

It can still be a good idea to have a car checked out by your own mechanic, and if you buy one from a private party that's an absolute must.

If you live in or near a major metropolitan area you're going to have no trouble finding good dealerships. Since I've made the used car four times in this time (once was when my current car was in an accident and I thought it would need to be replaced. Turned out to be fixable) I'm now completely comfortable shopping for used cars and have good feelings about several different dealerships, including ones I didn't end up buying from.

I've also discovered that an extraordinarily useful technique in dealing with the price, is let them tell you what they want for the car and then just don't say anything at all. Don't counter. It tends to make them nervous and they'll probably offer a lower price on their own.

Also, if at all possible, pay cash. Yeah, that might mean you'll be an older, less fancy car than your dreams, but after a 91 Taurus a almost anything will seem positively luxurious. Good luck!

I recently got a new car and all of the statistics showed the mileage of autos to be equal to, and in some cases BETTER than the stick shifts. It went against everything that I ever knew. I asked a few people in the know, and got the impression that the progress of automatic trannies and engines, plus different gearing has leveled the field.

I still ended up with the stick, though. First of all, it was a couple thousand cheaper and second, I like having more control over the (limited) power of a 4-cylinder tinkertoy engine!

...by virtue of the differences in the mechanical design. Manual transmissions have fewer moving parts, less friction losses, and weigh less. Granted, modern automatics are approaching the efficiency of sticks, but they'll never actually outperform a stick in efficency (MPG).

but I drive a 06 Saturn Ion (stick) and my roommate drives a 05 Ion identical to mine except that his is an automatic. He invariably gets 3 to 4 mpg MORE than I do- especially on the highway. I've noted that cruising at 70 mph, his rpm's are much lower than mine.

The Saturn Ion website shows that for a given model, the stick will deliver 2-3 mpg more than the A/T for the standard 2.2 litre engine (highway mpgs - 35 stick, 32 A/T)

However, I noticed that in the Ion line-up, there's a sport model (the Ion Redline), featuring a supercharged 2.0 liter engine that delivers only 29mpg on the highway.

Are you sure the two cars are really the same model?

They are absolutely identical, although my roomie did install a K & N air filter in his.

I would definitely know if I had a Redline! Especially when the insurance bill came in!

to put a K&N filter on your Ion! ;) But I really don't think the K&N alone could explain that much additional fuel efficiency.

Any other mods to your roomies or your car? Did anyone change tires and/or wheels?

Also, how does each car compare to the EPA estimates - is his MPG above the EPA estimate and/or is your car below the EPA estimate?

I still routinely get 29 to 32 mpg per tank (depending on my city/highway mix).

As for the K&N, I actually bought it for my car, but it didn't fit the 2006 model so I gave it to him. They haven't released one to fit the 2006 yet.

No other mods to either car, the only other difference that I can think of is that his has 16" alloys and mine has 15" steels. I keep my tire pressure between 33 and 35 psi.

I don't drive aggressively at all (he accuses me of driving like his grandpa!)

difference could be driving style

But I drive FAR less aggressively than he does. Truly, I hate riding in a car with him behind the wheel!

The biggest evidence that I see is the rpm's when cruising on the interstate. At 70 mph, my car (in 5th gear) is somewhere around 2700 to 2900. His appears to be more like 2500. It's gotta be the gearing....

that automatics and sticks get the same mileage in the same kind of car. I've been skeptical, but I'm no automotive engineer, so what do I know, right? So this morning when I heard the piece on NPR about standard transmissions getting better mileage I just about fell out of bed.

Personally, I vastly prefer the control I have with a stick, especially in dicey weather conditions. I'm also convinced that driving a stick forces people to pay attention to their driving in a different way, to understand that it's something more than just aiming the car and pressing on the accelerator. Interestingly enough, my oldest son (now 23) simply could not learn on a stick, which is what my husband and I both drive. He's mildly autistic, and for him being able to aime the car and pay attention to the road and the traffic and stop signs and traffic lights was practically overwhelming, and to add on to that the mechanics of shifting was simply too much. Once I finally realized that and acquired a car with automatic transmission, he did just fine, although at best was a mediocre driver. Several months after finally learning to drive he came back to me requesting to try driving the stick again. And he nailed it. So two years later he traded in the automatic (actually he sold it to my brother who desperately needed a replacement car) for a 99 Honda Civic and he's a much better driver on the stick. It forces him to pay attention in an essential way. Now, this is someone who will never be a highly skilled driver. But he's much better on a standard.

I cannot imagine ever not driving a stick. I think once I no longer can, it's a sign I need to give up driving altogether.

And I'm 57, almost 58 years old.

If I were shopping for a new car, I'd use the fine advice I've read about VIN numbers and reviews, but if I had a little more capital, I'd consider going through the rental car company's used vehicle sales. I remember at least one of my old mechanics saying that a used car from Hertz or Avis was usually a good deal and the cars were usually kept in good repair.

Normally I would say that a used car, 3 or so years old with low mileage would be a great buy. However, my stepdaughter is looking for a good used car and something my husband told her to be careful of struck me as sensible. With all the flooding from Katrina and then up in New England this spring, insurance companies have a lot of cars with flood damage that they are trying to get rid of. Buying a used car now might require some extra research.

You are essentially making a car payment for a vehicle you do not own and at the end of it you are responsible for ANY damage including rust.

A gas model Civic that is 3 years old comes with a comprehensive Honda inspection, repair in some cases and warranty. They are about 1/3 less than a new one in price. While not a hybrid, they do average in the mid to high 30s on the highway. Also, they are among the safest small cars on the road.

CAN be a sensible option, but don't go "too used" as the emission and fuel economy technology is evolving quickly as are the emissions requirements of many state inspections. The last thing you want to do is get a "deal" and then find out a year later that your car won't pass emissions testing as well as not gain the benefit of more fuel efficient designs and technologies (like E85 capabilities)

The time spent in research and shopping can really pay off.

hybrid technology.
http://cesp.stanford.edu/news/victor_commends_japans_auto_industry_for_its_focus_on_promising_hybrid_technologies_and_commercializing_them_20051003/

Actually, you could restore that old Taurus for many thousands less than a new one would cost.

I'm leary of the hybrids for the repl battery cost (I've heard around $7,000 every 10 years). Also, being a first responder and fireman, I dread the first time I come up on one of those babies in a wreck. If the battery were leaking or there was obvious damage to the power cable (about 40,000 volts I believe), we would have no choice but to leave it alone and hope you could make it until the appropriate extrication/hazmat units arrived. If it happened to catch on fire, no way would we hose down anything with that much voltage. People never think about the problems hybrids could cause in emergencies. There's very little info available to first responders on how to handle hybrids.

We just recently bought an almost new sub-compact Scion xA. It's not as roomy as I'd like, but the gas mileage is blowing my mind. The payments are about $348/month but the car saves about $120 in gas/month so it balances out to be affordable. It's nimble as a cat and reminds me of the VW Rabbit diesels that we used to drive back in the 80's & 90's, except those cars got about 50 miles/gallon.

Good luck hunting! :hi:

Here is one article about it.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2006/bw20060131_870391.htm

That's a pretty funny article, btw, and worth a look for the myth about "only liberals buy hybrids". I thought that was cute. :)

more about them than the list of misinformation you've just supplied here. 40,000 volts? $7000 batteries? Where are you getting this from?

I don't have a link on the voltage, that's what I was told in training by an assistant fire chief who trains in our region. Whatever the actual voltage per make/model, I ain't dancin with that orange or yellow wire!

On edit only 274 volts for Prius... grossly overstated - my bad... I couldn't find stats on how much juice flows from the generator if it's still running when the car is wrecked, that might be significant too.

batteries under the trunk, and an electric motor, not Mr. Fusion or plutonium or
anything. I'd hate for someone to die because rescuers thought they might get electrocuted. The big orange cable on my Prius is the same size as a battery cable on a regular car, runs from the engine under the passenger compartment along the "tunnel" to the battery compartment underneath. Seems to be pretty protected, from what I've seen from changing the oil etc. Also, from what I've heard, the system shuts down on impact, like a regular car's fuel pump cutoff, but you still have that 274 volts to watch out for. Not sure how many amps it is, but I wouldn't grab a 12 volt car battery connections, though, either.

35 MPG no matter how I drive it, good headroom, and no complaints from the rear seat passengers. Put the back seat down, and I can easily get eight bags of cedar mulch back there. Nice, loud stereo (that plays MP3s - the new one is iPod compatible), ABS and air conditioning standard. About $14K new.

Actually, it reminds me more of the '71 VW Bug my dad drove back in the days.

Great gas mileage and really fun to drive.

At my behest, my wife bought a new Elantra. Great car excellent warrantee and the price was nuts. She had them install a factory cd player, also. Total cost including tax and all was just over $13K! Check out an Elantra. You won't be disappointed.

My wife and I bought a new Echo in 2001. I know, I know, it's silly to buy new, but that's what we did. The car was rated at 41 mpg on the highway and in the high 30s in town, and I suspect we do at least that well. We've driven it like there's no tomorrow and never had the first bit of trouble.

I love this car!

Brand new, it was $10k. My guess is used Echos are very affordable.

As far as non-hybrids go, it's hard to beat an echo for an environmentally-friendly vehicle.

Zero problems in the the first 70K miles. Note that the Echo has been replaced in the Toyota lineup by the new Yaris (starting at $10,900). The Yaris inherited the Echo engine and drivetrain and should be similarly thrifty on gas and maintenance expenses.

The writer of this letter brings up wanting to "buy American". As noble a sentiment as that seems to be on the surface, it's not at all an easy thing. For instance, she was driving a 1991 Ford Taurus, which, although built in Atlanta, GA, her car contains less "domestic content" -- that is, parts and subassemblies manufactured in the US -- than, for instance a Honda Accord (built in Ohio) or Toyota Camry (built in Kentucky).

Many cars with US names are built by foreign car companies. The Chevrolet Aveo is built by Daewoo in South Korea, for instance. And some foreign cars are actually built by US manufacturers. The Mazda Tribute SUV is manufactured in Kansas City, MO, in the same Ford plant that builds the "Escape" SUV. Then there are some that are a total mess trying to figure out. The Chrysler Sebring two-door hardtop is built by Mitsubishi plant, in a plant in Normal, IL; however the four-door, and some convertibles are built in a plant owned by Chrysler in Sterling Heights, MI, while other Sebring Convertibles are built in Hermosillo, Mexico. The Pontiac Vibe is built in a Toyota/GM joint venture plant in California, while it's sister car, the Toyota Matrix may be mechanically identical, but it's built in Canada.

Manufacturers themselves are not easy to separate. Chrysler and Dodge are owned by Daimler of Germany. GM owns Saab, Ford owns Jaguar, Volvo and part of Mazda.

So -- in short, "buy American" means just about nothing in the automobile market.

First: Not all hybrids are the same. Some, like the Prius and Civic, use their hybrid technology to improve gas mileage. Some, like the Honda Accord, use it to improve performance. So choose carefully. Dan Neil of the LA Times has a good primer: http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-battery1feb01,0,7034589.story?coll=la-highway1-features

Second: There is some recently released data that suggests that hybrids neither save energy nor improve pollution as much as proponents claim. The data looks at the extra energy that is used in manufacturing the car and its parts. And it points out that the battery system is made of highly hazardous materials that are extremely difficult to dispose of safely. (Of course, it does admit, that hybrids have cleaner emissions than internal combustion engines.) And if you do mostly highway driving you may be disappointed in the gas mileage. In addition, replacement of the battery system when it comes will be very expensive.

I would not even consider an ethanol powered vehicle. Ethanol production still uses a great deal of oil - fertilizer, insecticide, transportation by trucks (cannot be sent by pipeline) - and has huge government subsidies to support it. In addition, it contains 25% less energy so a gallon needs to sell for 25% less than gasoline to break even.

It may well turn out that bio-diesel is the way to go. There are a number of used diesel cars that are available on the market. Otto Diesel invented his motor to run on peanut oil. Today, people in some areas - like California - are outfitting their diesels to run on used cooking oil. Others are buying Willie Nelson's bio-diesel. Others are looking to bio-diesel from the Dakotas that is being discussed on Ed Schultz's radio show.

Finally, be sure and look at the April issue of Consumer Reports - the car issue. They have a list of reliable used cars and costs. If you are considering a standard internal combustion engine car be sure and look at this issue.

My first taurus was my sisters car that she bought new, I got another 155,000 miles out of it after she said it was worn out. my second one was purchased used at the local Ford dealer for $3500.00, it served me for 3 years. I put over 100,000 miles on it before it was wrecked. My present one has over 165.000 miles. I was so impressed with the first one (over 305,000 total miles) that I continued to buy the same 3.0 liter with AOD trans. I've stayed away from other engines (24 valve) or the SHO, just the basics, no power windows, or other fancy stuff....The local scrap yard gets my cars when I'm done with them. I purchased my last "new" car in 1989.

Every Spring, Consumer Reports publishes an issue on cars. It includes reliability ratings for every type of car based upon surveys of thousands of car owners. You can find it at the library or you can subscribe on their website to read it over the web.

Remember that an efficient gas-engine car can get mileage that is not far from hybrid mileages, especially if you do highway driving. Right now, hybrids are still selling at too much of a premium to be worth it from a dollars and cents point of view. However, hybrids also have lower emissions.

I've always had great luck with their recommendations.

That's what I target. Usually they just need a set of tires and maybe some belts, filters, bulbs, etc.

Dealers get a lot of trade-ins from folks who buy new every two to three years. They usually trade them in before they have to replace the tires.

The line that struck me, was about "buying American". That's so cute.

You can't buy an American car. They don't exist. The parts have been out-sourced to the point that even if the car is put together in the US...and most of it is not put together in the US...but even it's made to seem that the car is put together in the US, the various and sundry parts have been made outside of the US.

Buying an American car now consists of opting to buy something with an American-sounding name. That's about the best you can do. Oh...and put an American flag (which was made in Taiwan) on the aerial.

Joy Tomme
Ratbang Diary at: http://ratbangdiary.blogspot.com

I know that "patriotic purchasing" is one of the watchwords thrown about these days and in the past, but here's a clue about that:

Most cars sold today have their parts manufactured overseas in multiple countries. Some assembly still occurs here, but you can't tell the "nationality" of the car simply by looking at the make. In addition, a lot of cars made by "overseas" manufacturers are actually made by companies owned by others, as there have been a lot of buyouts over the last decade. Ford owns Jaguar and Mazda, VW owns Lamborghini (I think, or was it Ferrari?). And so on.

Often you can get a really good used car that's two years old or less which has depreciated 15% or more below its initial sticker, with most of its good years still ahead of it.

Your niece's recommendation is correct, such instruments like bank loans, whether they be home equity or some other product, are often a better percentage rate and/or more flexible repayment terms. I've also seen some new cars coming out that aren't hybrids (like this Yaris I've seen) that are essentially responses to gas prices and get great mileage. I can't speak to their quality, but that kind of information is readily available with a few quick searches on the 'net.

My experience with the car buying process generally echoes what you've described:

1) Pick something you like within your price range or that suits most if not all of your needs, no purchase is less satisfying than a car that you 'settled' for.
2) Entertain the possibility that you'll be willing to take a used model with low mileage over a brand new car.
3) Never think of a car as an investment. It starts losing value the second you roll it off the lot.
4) Do your homework. How much can you really afford? Read reviews. Check the MSRP. Find out what options are offered. Check the reliability ratings for the make, model, and year. If it's a used car, get the book value of the car and always find out how many previous owners it has had. Being informed will make you more formidable an opponent for the salespeople when you finally get to the dealership.
5) Out-of-house financing options often give better deals than in-house financing.

Ford only owns 33%

We've found that taking the "big picture" view is the best way to deal with the quagmire that is car ownership/transportation in this country.

How much will you spend in total on the car, upkeep, repairs and gas over the life of the car (or for however long you own it?)

This might sound like I'm working backwards but stay with me...

First, we found an excellent repair shop for foreign cars. These guys are awesome. They're like "Click and Clack" (The Tappet Brothers) on the NPR radio show "Car Talk." In fact, "Car Talk" has a section of their website where people can recommend repair shops and the shop that we use is very well regarded.

What makes it such a great shop?

1. Records. they keep a file on our cars and can see in a flash, if, for example, the brakes are due for replacement. And,when it's time to sell the car, just being able to say "all the records and repair work are at Lyric Auto" adds 10% to the selling price.

2. Trust. Over the years, we have a simple arrangement: Having found this place, we don't go anywhere else and they take the best care of us that they can.

3. Planning. Every time we go in for an oil change or whatever, they remind us of upcoming needs "Those brakes are OK now but will need to be redone in ten or fifteen thousand miles." We PLAN on maintenance work and avoid those expensive "boo-boos'.

Usually... (sigh)

And we have had the best luck with Hondas built by UAW workers in either Canada or Ohio. Higher cost of acquisition and repairs, lower operating costs, longer life, higher reliability. Better cars. lower costs over the long run.

Every year Consumer Reports come out with a big report on auto reliability.

Every year the quality of American cars is "improved."

And every year the brands from Japan are better.

But the Hondas are the pick of the litter.

One out of every 5 Honda employees is an Adecco temporary employee, Contrary to what the public might suppose, temporary workers aren’t used only during busy periods when additional personnel are needed. They sign two-year contracts, work side-by-side with full-time employees and do exactly the same jobs, but receive only half the pay and far fewer benefits. In return, temps are promised only an interview for a full-time job at the end of their two-year hitch. In practice, they are frequently not hired full-time, but only offered another two-year contract.



This is also true of Hondas "domestic content" suppliers which are for the most part Honda owned but operated under names like Newman Technology, Mansfield Ohio. These places should have revolving doors to accomodate all the new employee hopefuls that cant make the cut for full time employment.



Although many people assume that quality is higher in the Japanese and German automakers’ nonunion U.S. assembly plants than in UAW-Big Three plants, several major “transplant” products didn’t rank in the top three vehicles in their respective segments in the 2003 J.D. Power ISQ, including Toyota Camry, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Tundra, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Nissan Altima and Nissan Maxima./snip

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13287012/

http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg07.cfm

Taking into consideration the actual amount of fuel burned, the emission ratings, and how much you drive -- I believe that it IS possible to own a car and still keep your footprint relatively small. If you get a non-hybrid which is fuel-efficient (the Consumer Reports type of magazine, and the websites and other info sources suggested by the other posters may be able to assist), and you keep it carefully maintained, using it only when you really have to -- in the end, there may not be much difference between how much CO2 and other pollutants you contribute, compared to someone who just bought a new hybrid but isn't thinking about these issues as much.

It wouldn't hurt to contact the auto companies (or their dealers in your town) to express concern about why there aren't more reasonably-priced choices. If they get enough people doing this, it may remind them that many of us have these concerns. (If they're as devoted to capitalism as they claim, they should see this as an Opportunity, right?) And that goes double for the US companies (though as someone already noted, they are really transnationals these days). Anyway, "Buy American" wasn't supposed to cover for shoddy or poorly-designed mechandise -- patriotism-based shopping didn't work in the Soviet Union, and anyone trying the same thing in a democratic country, foisting crap on consumers in that guise, is pulling the same kind of con.

In my town, some people have started a "car-sharing co-operative". It seems to be working (they've added new members over the past 10 years) -- I'm considering this as a possibility, though I don't currently own a car myself. I am lucky to live in a place with public transit (and in a neighborhood with enough goods and services within walking distance). If I had to commute farther to work, or if I had to haul a lot of kids or groceries around, I would probably have to make the same kind of decision you are. (My folks, who have a half-century of dealing with cars, also agree with Auntie Pinko about the depreciation rates making the "car as an investment" thing rather problematic.)

The rest of these jokers may use this occasion to make snide jokes about Big Oil and Big Manufacturing. Well, goody for their political correctness, but the lady wanted a realistic answer about a car.

Your best bet is to find a mechanic you can trust. It will generally NOT be one that works for one of the national auto service chains. If you don't know one, ask around among your friends. You're looking for a man who is honest about his car evaluations and who does good repair work.

(My mechanic is a staunch, bitter Vietnam ex-vet who hates Democrats. But I don't bring up politics and he is an honest man. Don't hire a mechanic based on politics. There are some honest Republicans out there - my mechanic is proof - and probably because he's honest the party will never let him run for anything.)

Once you find this mechanic, tell him your needs. Have him ask around. These guys often know owners who take care of their cars but have to sell them. (My current car was a low-mileage Camry wagon - yes, a rare breed - garaged and used infrequently by a widow.)

If you like the car he suggests, have him check it thoroughly. Then if you decide to buy it, always get your car serviced at that mechanic's shop. In other words, reward him for being honest and fair.

I live in an area that has affordable and wide covering public transportation. But we still have our traffic jams. Everything is just growing so much, people moving back to the burbs but still working in the city. I was lucky enough to find a house less than 3 miles from my work so on nice days, I walk and on others, I bus.

Specifically the part where Judge Doom (Christopher Lloyd) buys up all the land and closes down the trolley system? My father, who grew up in Buffalo in the 30's and 40's, insists it happened that way in his home town. He even puts a name to the entity that caused the trolley's demise; General Motors. To this day my father has only contempt for GM. Not even my brother's 30 year employment there as a mid-level engineer has led my father to thaw that emotion.

it will be cheaper in the long run

hey, becky. i was faced with basically the same problem as you a year ago and decided to look for a new or newer-used car. i started by researching biodiesel as an option, but because i couldn't pay for a car in cash and no bank would loan me under $7,000, i ended up looking at new cars that i could finance through my credit union. it sucks that i ended up spending more money because i didn't have money on hand – my fault. i shopped for my credit union's loan sales and got a better rate than the dealer gave me – way better.

i did TONS of research and comparison before choosing the smallest car necessary for my needs with the best safety, efficiency, and reliablilty available. scions are very affordable, safe and my xB (the boxy one) is very roomy but gets better gas mileage than a mini cooper. the little one (xA) people have mentioned above is even better. the last bonus, if you end up buying new, scions are sold for exactly what they say on the sticker, no haggling by dealers allowed – ever. that was awesome. you can even build yours online and order it through the website. whatever the price comes up to is what you pay plus delivery and tax. i have had mine about a year and i adore it. if you can't afford a hybrid, at least try to do the least amount of damage possible.

sidenote: if you are able to come up with a chunk of cash or a small loan, if you get a used diesel you can run it on biodiesel or you can even buy a conversion kit and run it almost completely on used vegetable oil which many restaurants will give away free. practically zero emissions and beats the crap out of hybrids for MPG when running on veggie oil. there's lots of info online, just do a search biodiesel in your area.

good luck!

One was a Saturn and the last one is a Nissan Frontier. Both were very reliable. I kept the Saturn for 4 years, then got the truck. Now I am looking again. This time I am interested in the Mazda3. Pretty cool little hatchback. I will consider the Toyota matrix also but it has a smaller engine and may not be as fun to drive, though it is similarly priced as the Mazda. Those Mazdas are very popular and the hatchbacks in particular are hard to find with the options I want. Used ones are nonexistent right now but maybe in a year or so there may be more available. I have driven but rejected the Saturn Vue because of its reliability problems (according to Consumer Reports the outlook isn't good).

But the advice here in this thread is pretty good. I started a thread in the Lounge on this very topic and got good advice there too.

in 1990 and an 83 Volvo 240 DL in 93. I had a Mazda 929, but rarely used it, to be honest, it was so expensive for insuring and the payments, so I eventually sold it to a kid I knew who knew the car was in good shape, and was friend's with our families. He drove it from Omaha to NYC at least 4X a year for four years while going to college and never had a problem. I loved the Honda for snow in Omaha. The Volvonator was boss for every occasion, from grocery hauling to cross-country to camping! The only drawback was that the A/C went out and I was living in Alabama then...and it is hard to get a good German/Swedish car mechanic. If you don't drive very far to work, I'd get an ugly but reliable car for groceries, trips outside the comfort zone for walking/public transport. I have basicly hoofed it since 1995, to and from work, to and from grocery store, etc. only using the Volvo to haul the dog and big items or to go out of town. I can easily go a month without even wondering, "Now where are the keys?"

One thing I will point out about "American" cars, as others have said already, is that a lot of "foreign" brands make their cars here. One in particular that is quite good, especially if you are looking to support UAW workers, is Mazda.
As you may or may not be aware, Ford owns a controlling share of Mazda. Many of their cars are made in the US, by UAW employees, often with a high content of US parts. My wife and I recently test drove the Mazda Tribute (the Mazda version of the Ford Escape) and found it was a very nice vehicle, assembled in Kansas City, MO. Base models with 4cyl engines and manual trannys are fairly affordable.