Why I'm Not Voting For Hillary

(After the locked, 300+ post thread in GD Politics today, I'm a little paranoid of posting this, but what the hell. It's basically a retread of a couple of posts I made here earlier anyway. Flame on!)

http://blogs.southflorida.com/citylink_dansweeney/2007/08/why_im_not_voting_for_hillary.html



My parents visited this weekend. Oddly, I come from Republican stock -- neither of my parents has voted for a Democrat since JFK and his brains went their separate ways in Dallas. My father is a bit further to the right than my mother. Dad and I have a standing agreement to avoid most political discourse, after nearly coming to blows on several occasions. Mom and I, though, still banter a bit, especially in times like these, when we're coming up on a presidential election.

Like many Republicans, Mom doesn't like any of her options in the primary. She's a sweet 69-year-old lady who doesn't smoke, rarely drinks, and jokingly offers to "pray for all of us heathens" when the rest of the family refuses to attend church with her. She is, quite simply, as American as apple pie. I love Mom.

And surprisingly, Mom's best options, in her opinion, this year look like Edwards or Obama, or maybe Richardson or Biden. She likes a lot of the Democratic candidates much better than she likes any of the Republicans. But the front-runner? We ended our political conversation with my mom saying, "I can't believe that bitch Hillary might be president."

Mom never curses.


On the left, the problems with Hillary are often two-fold:
1) She can't win the general election -- too many people don't like her, and too few people have yet to form an opinion.
2) She's a Republican in Democrat's clothing, and she's for all the anti-progressive agenda items her husband stood for -- free trade, corporate-friendly welfare "reform," and so on.

I disagree with both of those positions. Against just about any of the GOP candidates, Hillary's got a pretty good chance of winning. Poll after poll shows this. In general, she enjoys a narrow lead against all of the GOP front-runners. As for Hillary being just like Bill, that's somewhat blown out of proportion. Hell, a lot of progressives still insist Hillary is pro-Iraq War, despite the fact that her plans for Iraq are fairly similar to those of Edwards and Obama. Quite simply, the left dislikes her about as much as the right.

I think Hillary can win, and I think her positions on the issues are not totally incompatible with my own. My problem with Hillary comes in this -- what exactly does she do after she wins?

Since the GOP takeover of Congress in 1994, and especially since the Bush boys' 2000 coup d'etat, this country has become torn apart politically. The next president had better be somebody who can pull all sides -- including the right -- together, or we will continue down this destructive path, no matter how good or bad the intentions of the new president.

And here's where we come back to Mom. I've met plenty of registered Republicans who, like her, actually find Obama and Edwards to be acceptable candidates, but the minute you start talking about Hillary, they start foaming at the mouth. Eight years of Hillary means another eight years of political trench warfare, and that is a very bad thing. On the other hand, either Obama or Edwards has a chance to unite America for the first time in my adult life. Yes, there will always be hardcore conservatives who won't want anything to do with a Democratic administration, but those people are outnumbered by their more-rational, moderate colleagues.

In the end, my lack of support for Hillary stems not from a belief that she cannot win the election (she can), or even from a disagreement with her positions (many of which, currently, are quite similar to those of Edwards or Obama).

I don't support Hillary because I think a Hillary Clinton administration would be bad for America -- all of America, not just the people I'm sharing a trench with. I'm tired of avoiding conversations with Mom.

nuff said!

Suffice to say, I disagree with that assertion.

""Why we should support a more viable candidate in the primaries."

We have a winner here, folks.

My mom is the same. If Rudy gets the (R) nomimation, she said she is staying home. One exception, though. If we give the nod to hillary, she will vote for anyone she has to in order to vote against Mrs. Clinton.

Just sayin'

She will make indies vote R and will drive what would be non-voting apathetic voters to the booth to vote against her. Why can't supporters see that? Not to mention she is NOT a good Dem with progressive and liberal values.

There are a few here who understand that your statement only applies if HRC is the Dem nominee. I'm sure there are several Dem candidates who can easily beat a repug, if they are the nominee. I work commercial construction in central Arkansas, and I can say by experience, that there is more support for Clinton or anyone else who wins the Dem nomination, than any repug running. It also points out just how much out of touch a large section of DU is with "the regular democrat". Thanks.
quickesst

Right or wrong, that's what happens. Unlike you, I doubt she would win.

It would be like someone who is almost a yellow-dog Democrat breaking ranks if Bush were the candidate. She stirs up that much feeling.

to tear into her 2) she is too much part of the status quo 3) she was a tremendous hawk for this God awful war. That's the one I can't get past.

in a coupla ways here. Definitely agree with your reasoning.

I'm really worried about how Republicans and some Independents will react if she gets the Dem nomination. There's a visceral illogical hatred for the Clintons in some demographics, and I'm concerned that it's enough to hurt us, esp. if we get an independent in the race like Hagel.

In fact, I think Chuck Hagel running as an Independent or Republican could be a major problem for Dems, unless Gore or Clark get the Dem nomination.

I really wish Hillary could have been thoughful enough to put aside her personal ambitions, for the greater good of the Dem party. Unfortunately, her ego seems to get in the way. The same could be said for other candidates, but they're no where as potentially damaging.

but she can't win a general, but those who can't win the primary CAN win the General . something doesn't make sense Oh , this OP.

Nowhere in my post do I say she can't win the general election. In fact, I say the opposite.

It does make it different from the other "why I won't" posts. while she is not my number 1 choice, I will support the nominee of my party, and I am not interested in the opinions of those who won't support the Party. It's called discipline , not lockstep.

For the third time, I'm talking about the primary election here.

If we aren't strategic in the primary and the vote is split too many ways, she can eek into the nomination.

She will not win the general. I just see too many who have already formed hardened opinions against her to see it.

HOWEVER,

If we are strategic and get behind someone who CAN win the general, it is a much different ballgame.

Or the voter voting for the candidate of his/her choice? We all make that decision and people who have nothing constructive to add have no influence, other than provide Pukes with talking points and quotes.

I just stated a fact. Yes, you should vote your issues in the primary! REALITY though says that if 1/4 less 1 vote DK, 1/4 less 1 vote Edwards, 1/4 less 1 vote Obama, and 1/4 + 3 vote Hillary, she gets the nod and she loses the GE.

Its not rocket science -- its math.

allowing the republicons to continue their assault on the Constitution and your civil liberties?

her support of the Patriot Act?I won't vote for any candidate who supports that POS....Some things are just to important to ignore.There are only 3 candidates who don't support the Patriot Act,and Hillary isn't one of them.

and there are people who won't vote for Obama, or Edwards, or Richardson, or Dodd or Biden. So what does that prove. Only that the other people won't swiftboat the candidates the won't vote for, because they are republican lovers. That's the difference. I could rant and rave about your candidate too. BUT I DON'T LIKE THE REPUBLICAN TYPE POSTERS.

Given that I mention Obama and Edwards as being viable choices for crossover votes, I'm surprised this has been so confusing. :shrug:

Your Mom's quote mirrors my own. Personally, I don't trust the woman, however, I believe she should remain a senator. IF she has to be in public service at all.

Others like her tough as nails attitude, but somehow that kind of toughness worries me.

There's a weird na-nanny-boo-boo about her as well. A woman in her mid-fifties shouldn't be
in the prez race, because, "IT'S MY TURN" , or "I was married to the prez and now my chance has come!" or similar reasoning. I don't know- something about it bothers me a good deal.

I know people who say, "Who cares, the cons are assholes, they deserve to have their hated Hillary as their president for awhile." But I am a liberal---I'm not into revenge. I want something better for our country than four or eight more years of Clinton bashing. I am sick and tired of all the divisiveness and political polarity. I'm not so naive as to think there will ever be a time when we don't have some of that, but the level since the Clinton years has been over the top and it's causing great harm to our country. I'd rather see someone less divisive nominated so we can maybe, hopefully just move past some of it.

That said, I do also disagree with a lot of Hillary's positions, so those are other reasons why I don't plan to vote for her in the primary and I will vote for her in the general election if she's nominated. Being divided is one thing, but Republicans in control for another 4-8 years will destroy our country. Maybe even the world along with it.

All of us early DU'ers loved Bill Clinton and knew he got a hard, dirty, raw deal from the Repug Rove Machine and we were all waiting for Conason/Lyon's "Hunting of the President" to prove that CLINTON WAS TOTALLY TRASHED BY THE REPUGS.

HERE'S WHERE THE STORY GET's MUDDLED!

All of us who SUPPORTED THE CLINTONS TO THE DEATH because WE KNEW they were HOUNDED...suddenly had almost 7 Years of Bush II Politics. We started to read and look at the Clinton Policies in Retrospect and found that they were LACKING in DEMOCRATIC (FDR/JFK) kind of "take care of the PEOPLE FIRST politics."

We started to see Clinton NOT as someone whom we should have DEFENDED but as an EVIL..like the REPUGS...who CAVED ON EVERY ISSUE AND Started his Administration by PUSHING THROUGH NAFTA that cost American Citizens JOBS...and CHINA IMPORTS with CHEMICALS and TOXIC P.J.'s for our KIDS, DEATH TO OUR PETS, FORMALDYHYDE IN OUR HOMES AND OUTSOURCING THAT KILLED THE AMERICAN WORKER!!!!!!!

So..the Clinton Legacy is PALE and WEAK and A CAVE IN TO REPUGS and NORQUIST AND THE REST!

I can sum up Hillary's P-Residency QUEST in TWO WORDS! JOBS GO TO CHINA AND THIRD WORLD AND CLINTONS TAKE OVER BUSH POLICIES...trying to CONVINCE AVERAGE AMERICANS...that THEY..........REALLY CARE about YOU AND ME and OUR FAMILIES.

:puke: on the CLINTONS! My Hindsite VIEW OF THEM seems to put them in bed with Poppy Bush and his spawn from HELL!!!!!

the republicans have won either way. Clinton is a neo-con, just like all the rest.

Sadly, justified or not, Hillary is somewhat polarizing at this time and her winning the general election would be a real fight. OK.
BUT, she may well become the Dem nominee, and, if so, she MUST be STRONGLY supported because it is PARAMOUNT that we beat the Republicans and re-take the presidency.

MANY of the attacks on Hillary are extremely unfair. Just because she has had occasion to have a tough personality that does not make her a "bitch." She is also very caring and as New Yorkers have come to know her more and more they have come to like her more and more. As to the negatives, they seem to be slowly coming down and in New York she has beaten the hell out of two Republican Senate opponents with the help of majorities of Independents AND a good number of cross-over moderate R's.

Hillary is NOT a "neocon" by any means and to assert this and group her with the likes of Bush/Cheney/Rove/Rummy etc. shows a complete dismissal of a realistic understanding of the situation. There are STARK and STRIKING differences between Hillary and the Bush/Cheney neocons.

I will say that right now I am for Edwards and that no canidate should be annointed at the early stage. But, no matter who the Dem nominee becomes, I for one will throw every last ounce of effort I can to help that nominee become the next US President. This will be perhaps the most important election in decades, and we can not afford to allow the R's to win yet again. So if you want the country to change you better damn well get behind WHOMEVER the is the eventual Dem nominee and also help Dems win up and down the ticket. As to Hillary, she CAN win, she would be VERY formidable, she'd have a hell of a lot of resource and an EXCELLENT campaign team, and, very honestly, she'd be a good President and MUCH better than both the fool in the White House now and ANY of the ReTHUGlican candidates.

...the distinction is damned thin.

for your great post.

This part says it all:



This country MUST move forward.

I'll certainly support whoever is the Democratic nominee, but I hope it's not Hilary. She's a polarizing figure and she'll only divide our country even further. The Dems must win in '08, we must take back this country from the damage inflicted over the last 8 yrs. Alot of repubs are sick of what Bush has done to this country and I believe there's a chance, with the right candidate they'd vote for a Dem.

I don't believe Hilary can win a general election and no one will galvanize the gop base like she can. They'll be out in droves to vote against her, even if they hate the gop candidate. Who by the way I hope is Rudy, I'd love to see a Dem candidate chew him to pieces.

The republican fringe is totally pissed right now, give them Rudy and they will vote dem for sure. They will turn out in droves to vote against Hillary though. No other candidate will mobilize the fringe pubs to turn out and vote against her like Hillary. She is the only candidate who has a chance of losing the election for the Ds.

...and to hell with anyone who takes issue with my exercising my rights as a citizen of the United States. Senator Clinton does not represent my interests or the America I believe in.

Whoever wins - they really have to be a uniter and not a divider.

They have to not only get ALL the Democratic votes - they have to get a portion of the Republicans.

Remember to point out to your parents that the politics of the Democratic party as led by the DLC is basically a Nixon-era conservative philosophy mind-set.

I am not saying that you should vote the way your mom does (WHo among us does that?), but I do think she has a good "take" on what people are thinking.

Be a true Democrat and make it happen. Put your money where your values are and take this man to the Whitehouse.

I'm talking about the primary here, not the general.

If Clinton gets the nod in the primary, I'll vote for her in the general, but God help us over the next four to eight years.

will certainly doom any Clinton presidency. then we will all be SOL. The Dems in Calif gave us Arnold to prove that the Dem nominee was BAD. the mercilessly savaged the candidate so Arnold had only to copy their quotes in the most negative campaign in years,initiated by Soreloser Dems. I see the same going on now