H-1B Visa Reform Takes Shape to Address Fraud, Procedural Nightmares

2008-11-07

H-1B Visa Reform Takes Shape to Address Fraud, Procedural Nightmares
( Page 1 of 2 )

In the wake of a report claiming up to 20 percent of H-1B applicants may be fraudulent, the U.S. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services will look more closely at H-1B visa applications.

The agency responsible for granting H-1B visa applications plans to tighten up its procedures for vetting and approving the applications in the wake of a report indicating as many as 20 percent of the applications may be fraudulent or technically flawed.

The U.S. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services, which is responsible for approving and administering H-1B applications, will increase the level of detail in which H-1B visa applications are examined and do what it can to eliminate the types of problems identified in the report, according to department spokesman Bill Wright.

The report is an audit of 246 applications that found 13 percent of the applicants used forged documentation, false businesses or addresses, false job offers, or misrepresented their immigration status. Another 7 percent had technical violations such as requiring the applicant to pay the application fee or list a salary substantively above what the applicant would actually be paid.

The report, H-1B Benefit Fraud & Compliance Assessment (PDF), was done at the request of Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, a longtime critic of U.S. immigration policy in general and the H-1B program in particular.

Neither Grassley nor other representatives involved in H-1B legislation responded to calls, but the staff of Lamar Smith, R-Texas, ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, called the frequency of the fake degrees, fake businesses and forged documents "troubling."

"We cannot allow individuals to abuse H-1B visas in order to enter the country fraudulently and take jobs from American workers. The Administration must do more to protect the American worker and restore integrity to the H-1B visa program," the statement continued.

More: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Infrastructure/H1B-Visa-Reform-Takes-Shape-to-Address-Fraud-Procedural-Nightmares/

Not enough, but something......

IL has some good Senators, eh?

:)

:thumbsup:

I'm an IT front line manager and have been out of work for 18 months (because "outsourcing and H1-B's are good for America")

We don't need them

I hope you find some work soon, Phred. (Fingers crossed)

:toast:

Anyone who is in the information technology business can tell you how the foreign worker has decimated jobs and salaries for American citizens right here in America. The Indian citizen has primarily taken over that field here in America. I get pretty tired of people saying we need high skilled workers here in America because there aren't enough here. That is pure crap that comes right out of the mouths of tech corporations who simply want workers they can pay less and less to. Democrats should get on the right side of immigration legal or illegal, it is killing jobs for Americans. Politicians who stand on the side of American jobs for Americans are going to start winning elections, regardless of their party.

I'm sick of hearing of the lack of skilled workers here in the U.S., when there are dozens of studies that prove otherwise.

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

A new study argues that the offshoring of U.S. jobs is caused by cost savings and not a shortage of U.S. engineers or better education in China. However, the study warns that the United States is losing its global edge.

A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporations needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Dukes 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

...and the teachers working in inner cities unable to attract American grads ... and the cancer researchers trying to find a cure...etc. etc.

Only 40% of H-1B workers are in IT, by the way. I have no problems going after H-1B employers who are not complying with the rules, but that's far different than what you've just called for.

That may have been true in 2003, but it is closer to 48% in 2007. I guess this shows where the lobbyist money is hard at work (hint: it sure ain't on caring for your health).

I agree, there are certain fields that should have their own classifications (and different set of stipulations) for foreign workers, and should not be lumped under this piece-of-shit program. Actually, the whole thing needs an enema and should be retooled completely. If you notice, all the companies that received mailings from Dick Durbin were Technology related. They are the biggest frauds. Any company found in violation should have their ability to employ H-1B workers revoked from a minimum of 10 years.

Having sensible H1B and immigration reform is NOT "anti-immigrant", it's pro "human rights" and pro worker to boot.

I'm glad that someone is saying this out loud. This isn't a partisan issue-- it's fundamental economic survival for millions of Americans carrying deep educational debt, who've been given a raw deal.

I have no doubt that there may be many skilled Indian workers, but the problem is, they're competing with a grossly unfair advantage compared to American workers-- engineers trained in India have very little educational debt since their training is largely subsidized by the government.

This is obviously not the case for the United States-- graduates from USA schools routinely carry over $100,000 or $200,000 in educational debt, and it's therefore utterly impossible for them to compete with H1-B imported workers (or receivers of outsourced jobs) who don't carry that kind of debt.

This speaks to the broader issue of fairness in globalization, but the H1-B debate is a very good example: It is outrageously unfair to American workers to put our jobs on the chopping block, when our students have poured often over a decade of blood and sweat into obtaining an expensive technical degree.

If US students are going to suffer under that debtload, then it's outrageous to pull a bait-and-switch and outsource their jobs, or just give them away to H1-B hires.

I've long said that Hillary Clinton lost the Democratic nomination (and ultimately the Presidency itself), above all because she was vocally supportive of the H1-B visa program and outsourcing, at a time when skilled American workers are hard-pressed by debt and economic decline as never before. This should be a lesson to politicians from both parties: Support H1-B, when American workers are laboring under such heavy debt (which workers from India are free from), and you will be targeted for electoral humiliation. And good riddance.

yes INDEED :hi:

And Welcome! :hi:

Was actually on DU before (the Guitars was singular ;) ) but had to ditch my university account after I moved out. But hey, a bluesman is always a bluesman, after all!

We're glad to have you back! :toast:

judging from the number of foreign IT workers I deal with, with masters degrees in IT who seem to not know the fucking basics

We're getting the "best and brightest" coming here! :sarcasm:

I worked as a consultant for a company with a Chinese guy on H-1B, that supposedly had a PhD in C.S. and was labeled as, a master of "All things MS-SQL Server" related. This guy wrote the shittiest T-SQL code I have ever seen in my life! Cursors, and nested stored-procedures that called user defined functions that called other user defined functions... His shit didn't scale to a hundred transactions per minute, let alone the 1 million required for acceptance.

asking me what a cylinder is, asking me to tell them the meaning of their own user code abends - honestly, they make me sick

I could only imagine trying to explain the logic of a simple bubble sort! :rofl:
That would have fried sections of grey-matter!

The guy I spoke of was not the worst I've had to deal with. The worst are these Indian IT workers that are the self-proclaimed "messiahs"... I'm not even going to go into that subject tonight, there is not enough alcohol in the house to calm me down over that topic.

you are not female so you don't EVEN know the half of it

I'm sure he knows the half of it. ;)

Serious dude, bubble sort is O(n^2). Why would you want to do that? The first company I worked for someone actually did that. The process for large data sets would take days. I replaced it with a tidy insertion sort and reduced similar sized data processing to hours. Shortly after that, someone lost their job.

I have no doubt that I lost my place in the IT marketplace to underqualified foreign workers. I am equally positive that there are plenty of people who "get the job done" out there but get it done VERY poorly. The problem is that the people who you worked for didn't have a clue as to actual implementation. It's the traditional Dilbert paradox. The jackass who gets the first solution is perceived to be the best engineer.

Oh well. Where are you to go when the music stops and they have placed Indians in the chairs while the music was still playing. What is disgusting is the ads that call for 7 years experience in technologies that are only 5 years old. The system is rigged against the American worker.

Why on Earth would you want to work your ass off and study when you have to be the very BEST to keep your job in the face of an onslaught in foreign workers. Why not just get some cozy union gig where no thought is required?

America is being systematically dismantled right now with NAFTA/WTO/ Free Trade. The globalists could care less.

Bubble sort was used in my example as something that even the most junior of programmers should understand, but don't.

Skittles mentioned "abends" in code... my assumption was that this was most likely JCL or Cobol (yikes) and does not have the luxuries found in newer object oriented languages. My bet is that some of that code was written in the '80s and '90s.

I whole-heartedly agree with your statement about the system being rigged against the American worker!

couldn't grasp any of the tasks at hand....

with h1-b visa holders.

Keep up the great work, OhioChick. Thanks for your diligence on this issue.

It's very personal to me.

This shit with them posting "dummy ads" for an entire you is bull. There are plenty of Americans who can do those jobs. They just want cheap ass Indians who are locked into their positions once they are boated over.

My current employer will put an ad in the newspaper, get hundreds of resumes, all of which get thrown out.....just so they can say they "tried" to hire an American.....but keep that H-1B. (According to many of my former colleagues, this seems to be the norm for most companies these days) :grr:

process as it's currently practiced-- with only corrupt and already-rich employers like Microsoft gaining in the process.

When engineers and scientists from India are recruited in on the H1-B, as you say, they're locked into their positions at ridiculously low wages (forget about benefits) and essentially imprisoned there for years, at the mercy of their employer whose support they need to get visa renewal.

In the meantime of course, these bargain-basement hires from India (which is exactly how Bill Gates and other jerks see them)-- who generally don't have debt from college-- drive down industry-wide wages to far below anything approaching a livable level in the industry. American workers with a Bachelor's Degree (let alone the extra costs of a Master's or Doctorate) simply cannot survive on such wages, given not only their college debt but the basic dignity and self-respect that an American graduate of an engineering program-- a notoriously difficult and rigorous training program-- has earned, based on what they have to endure.

So, indebted graduates of American schools are doubly screwed over-- first by having to tough it out through the brutal, competitive environment needed to get a degree in a technical field like engineering (while their friends are off partying and having a good time), and then a second time when they're pushed out of work by outsourcing and H1-B hires (while again, their friends who partied and had fun in college also manage to do better in the employment market, with family connections and business degrees).

Is it any wonder why the United States has already lost its technological edge to the EU (and probably soon to other countries)? Technical graduates in the USA get the rawest of raw deals-- used and abused as cheap labor while they're earning their degrees, then getting nothing after paying their dues for so many years.

I think this really gets at the heart of why the H1-B and outsourcing to India so angers Americans more than almost any other program-- and why, again, this issue very possibly cost Hillary Clinton the Democratic nomination and (considering the incompetent campaign of McCain/Palin) an almost certain electoral victory in a historic election year:

H1-B and outsourcing to India violate the most basic principles of fairness and overturn the most basic concept behind hard work and innovation being rewarded, since essentially the brightest and hardest-working college students (engineers and scientists in particular) are multiply screwed over and their hard work devalued, while others who just blew off college not only have more fun then, but get better jobs later. How f***ed up a system is this? It's a total bait-and-switch.

And it's no wonder that nobody wants to major in science or engineering anymore-- they don't want to be the dupes in a totally ridiculous educational system.

One of the first things that Obama and the new Democratic Congress should do when they're sworn in, is to abolish the H1-B and introduce harsh penalties for tech companies like Micro$oft-- as well as their counterparts in Bangalore and other Indian cities-- that encourage outsourcing like this. The H1-B should then be replaced by a much more limited, and much more strictly enforced, program to ensure that American graduates of tough science and engineering programs don't get so thoroughly shafted when they graduate-- something that would allow in workers who would contribute something unique, but won't take away jobs from American workers by driving down wages. (In fact, one of the stipulations is that any foreign hire, on whatever program replaces the H1-B, must receive the same normed wages as American university graduates.)

Oh, and when it comes to deportations, Bill Gates and his kind should be the first to go. They, and the other corrupt corporations that shirk US taxes, must not be rewarded for their behavior.

Welcome to DU.

You make some very valid points.

Hi all. Long time reader, but posting for the first time mainly because this issue hits home. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at the right-wingnut type comments on this issue by my normally realistic liberal friends.

Let me tell you about myself. I came to the US in Sept 1994. I got my undergrad degree from one of the top engineering schools in the country, and then landed a job that sponsored me for my H-1B visa. That eventually led to my green card, which I got just before getting laid off during the Technology bust.

I then finished up my MBA while working at three different places to support myself. I got a job but had to start from the bottom again. Worked my way up to manager, where I am now.

I became a proud citizen of the United States in Dec. 2007. I asked my Congressman to have a flag flown on the US Capitol building on the day I received my citizenship. I display that flag and certificate proudly in my living room as a reminder of what was one of the greatest days of my life.

Last week, I was proud to have voted for Barack Obama. Before the election, I knocked on doors, made phone calls, made donations, registered voters, and convinced friends to donate and vote for Barack Obama.

My dedication to America was only possible because of the H-1B visa. I, like hundreds of thousands of others before and after me, came to these shores because I knew I had a shot at employment after education. We study hard, we work hard, we pay taxes, many of us volunteer in our communities, we share ideas, we learn about America, etc.

America gives us a lot, but we also give a lot to America. It's not a gift by America, but a mutually beneficial strategic decision to bring lots of hard working and intelligent people here. Without an H-1B visa, America would lose a huge chunk of students to other countries. Look at the graduate-level programs in the top universities - they are mostly international students. And these people, like so many undergraduates as well, are here because they can study (through the F-1 visa) and then work (thanks to the H-1B visa). Where do you think most of the research for new ideas and products happens?

I totally agree that the H-1B visa is being abused, primarily by "body shoppers" (google it). This is a huge topic within the business and immigrant communities, and something needs to be done about it. Also, with a crumbling economy, there are some concerns about H-1B visas.

So I understand the frustration and confusion. But the comments on this topic really shocked me. I thought I was on freepers for a second (ok, maybe it's not that bad! ;). H-1B visas are a good thing for America. And just with anything, abuse is very harmful and it must be controlled.

Thanks for reading. I hope to post more in the future.

There is no lack of skilled workers.

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

A new study argues that the offshoring of U.S. jobs is caused by cost savings and not a shortage of U.S. engineers or better education in China. However, the study warns that the United States is losing its global edge.


A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporations needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Dukes 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.

More: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-N... /

As for the H-1B's coming to the U.S.....

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

One of the main arguments touted by groups interested in seeing an increase in the cap on H-1B temporary worker visas is that those who wish to work here on these visas are some of the world's best recruits, and their addition to the work force would foster U.S. innovation and global competitiveness.

Opponents to the program argue that H-1B visas do none of the above, but are instead used by large, greedy tech companies to undercut the wages of U.S. workers, effectively pushing them out of jobs. Opponents cite fines levied against system abusers as evidence.

In an article published this month by the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank favoring fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted, Norman Matloff, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who has been a longtime critic of the H-1B program, took a look at the median salaries of H-1B visa workers in the U.S. and found that although these workers weren't being underpaid, the median salary for a tech worker on an H-1B is simply the prevailing wage for their job and no more.

From there, Matloff drew the conclusion that if these workers were truly the best and brightest and would be able to foster U.S. innovation, they'd be able to command salaries higher than the prevailing wage.

"Most foreign tech workers, particularly those from Asia, are in fact of only average talent. Moreover, they are hired for low-level jobs of limited responsibility, not positions that generate innovation. This is true both overall and in the key tech occupations, and most importantly, in the firms most stridently demanding that Congress admit more foreign workers," Matloff writes.

More: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_w...


The Science Education Myth

Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

Political leaders, tech executives, and academics often claim that the U.S. is falling behind in math and science education. They cite poor test results, declining international rankings, and decreasing enrollment in the hard sciences. They urge us to improve our education system and to graduate more engineers and scientists to keep pace with countries such as India and China.

Yet a new report by the Urban Institute, a nonpartisan think tank, tells a different story. The report disproves many confident pronouncements about the alleged weaknesses and failures of the U.S. education system. This data will certainly be examined by both sides in the debate over highly skilled workers and immigration (BusinessWeek.com, 10/10/07). The argument by Microsoft (MSFT), Google (GOOG), Intel (INTC), and others is that there are not enough tech workers in the U.S.

The authors of the report, the Urban Institute's Hal Salzman and Georgetown University professor Lindsay Lowell, show that math, science, and reading test scores at the primary and secondary level have increased over the past two decades, and U.S. students are now close to the top of international rankings. Perhaps just as surprising, the report finds that our education system actually produces more science and engineering graduates than the market demands.

More: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb...

More: http://www.jobdestruction.com/shameh1b /

http://www.eng-i.com/E-Newsletters.htm

http://www.programmersguild.org /

H-1Bs And the Triumph of Buypartisanship
To really see the sheer corruption of our political process, you have to look at the lies that simply refuse to go away in the face of overwhelming facts - the myths that are utterly and completely untrue, yet which are regarded as unchallenged truth in Washington because they serve to rationalize Big Money's agenda.

Regular readers of this my writing know that two of those lies are the Great Education Myth and the Great Labor Shortage Lie. The first says that if only Americans obtained more skills and education, they would be able to obtain high-paying jobs. The second says that America faces a shortage of workers, which requires companies to import workers from abroad. Both of these fables have been thoroughly debunked by economic data and economic analysis from across the political spectrum.

The Great Education Myth and the Great Labor Shortage Lie converge in the debate over H-1B visas - the visas that the American government gives to corporations allowing them to import high-skilled workers from abroad. Lobbyists and the Members of Congress they have bought push for more H-1B visas by claiming that because Americans are not properly educated, they don't have the skills needed for high-tech jobs, and thus, there is a shortage of domestic high-tech workers to fill such jobs.

Again, this rationale has been exposed as a fraud. Duke University researchers this year definitively proved that there is, in fact, no shortage of engineers in the United States. Rochester Institute of Technology professor Ron Hira has published a study proving that the H-1B program accelerates job outsourcing. His study was verified by data showing that the companies that most use the H-1B program are those whose whole business is outsourcing. Meanwhile, top corporate lawfirms - hired by the very companies lobbying for more H-1B visas under the guise of the Great Labor Shortage Lie - have been caught on tape running seminars on how to abuse the H-1B system as a tool to lower American workers' wages, which the data again shows is exactly what the program does.

Yet, despite all of the facts and despite the 2006 election that saw Democrats promise to defend the economic interests of America's middle class, we get this story from Roll Call today:

"A key bipartisan group of lawmakers is pushing for enacting a short-term boost in immigration visas by the end of the year...A letter from the New Democrats signed by 16 Members to Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Monday urged a significant boost to the numbers of visas allowed for tech workers, nurses, agricultural workers and seasonal workers to alleviate a crush of demand from employers. The technology industry in particular has been vocal about its desire to expand the H-1B visa program for highly skilled immigrants...The push to add visas for high-tech workers has support even among some House Republicans...House Minority Leader John Boehner (Ohio) was among the 30 Republicans who signed a letter to Pelosi earlier this month calling for cutting red tape so that high-tech companies can get the workers they need. The Republican letter...said lawmakers should 'find a way to ensure that America continues to attract the best and brightest minds from around the world' and allow companies to do so 'without unnecessary delays and waiting periods.'...The New Democrats, meanwhile, have already had meetings with House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (Md.) in which they've made it clear that expanding visas is a top priority."

More: http://www.credoaction.com/sirota/2007/10/h1bs_and_the_...

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

A recent report suggests that US employers are using the H-1B visa program to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

According to "The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004," a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid "significantly less than their American counterparts."

How much less? "On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state."

Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report's H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor's H-1B disclosure Web site.

Miano, in his report, whenever possible gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).

Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

More: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_vis...

Are tech firms faking job ads to avoid hiring U.S. workers?

Companies like Hewlett Packard, Cisco, and others are being accused of skirting federal laws to hire foreign workers while laying off American geeks. Cringely labors to uncover the truth.

TAGS: Come Hell or HP


Ask the Programmers Guild that question, and their answer would be an emphatic "yes!" The New Jersey-based organization has accused Hewlett Packard of advertising for jobs it has no intention of filling -- at least with US citizens -- on the Idaho Department of Labor Web site.

Federal regulations require U.S. corporations that wish to request a green card for a foreign worker to demonstrate that no qualified U.S. workers are available to fill the job. So, the argument goes, HP is allegedly posting fake jobs online and in newspapers to fulfill the requirements of Uncle Sam's Program Electronic Review Management process. Resumes come in, Americans get winnowed out, and the PERM job goes to Enrique or Sanjay or Vladimir.

The key bit of evidence: Job applications are directed not to HP's normal human resources department but to one of its immigration specialists.

A Hewlett Packard spokesperson responded thusly:

The programmer's guild website and press release on HP is inaccurate and misleading. The job notices that were on the Idaho state job bank last week appeared in error. We are working with the Idaho Department of Labor to assure such errors do not occur in the future. HP has no plans to substitute American workers with foreign nationals for these roles.
HP is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate against any workers, but always seeks to hire the best and the brightest and that includes a small percentage (2-3%) of foreign nationals.


Blogger (and recently downsized HP engineer) Clayton Cramer notes that HP said those Idaho job postings were a mistake and would be taken down. Curiously, he adds, very similar ads for job at HP appeared on the site a few days later.

Programmers Guild president Kim Berry says companies prefer H-1B workers because foreign workers' options are limited: They aren't allowed to change jobs for several years, they may be forced to work overtime without pay, and they're less likely to question management decisions. "It's a form of indentured servitude," he says.

The Guild isn't the only group squawking about this. Blogger James Fulford has accused HP of laying off older Americans and then posting ads for jobs that are pretty much identical to the ones they just "eliminated." The motive: to replace older, better paid employees with younger, cheaper PERM employees.

Meanwhile, HP recently announced it's slashing 24,600 employees as a result of its merger with EDS, half of them employed in the States. According to SiliconValley.com, "HP said it plans to replace about half those jobs with new positions performing other functions."

It will be interesting to see how they define "other functions."

Of course, HP is hardly the only company suspected of doing this. Cisco has been accused of running similarly bogus ads. Last year, the Guild posted a YouTube video showing Pittsburgh law firm Cohen & Grisgsby giving a tutorial on how to skirt the legal requirements to hire H-1B workers that created a small firestorm on the Net and even woke up two members of Congress. (They resumed their nap shortly thereafter.)

Is this illegal? Technically not, says Berry. "But the companies are supposed to make a good faith effort to hire Americans. It's not good faith if they're getting resumes from highly qualified candidates and looking for reasons not to hire them."

Finally, frequent Cringe contributor J. H. shares this viral video, titled "Developers Are in Pain." It doesn't have anything to do with immigration or H-1B visas, but it's pretty damned funny -- and very true.


More: http://weblog.infoworld.com/robertxcringely/archives/20...

H-1B foes try to prove student-visa extension hurts U.S. tech workers

Lawsuit against DHS hinges on convincing judge that plaintiffs have legal standing in case


September 23, 2008 (Computerworld) A federal lawsuit pitting H-1B opponents against the Bush administration is hinging on one question: Do tech workers have a right to challenge the federal government in court over its visa policies?

Critics of the H-1B program have long argued that it has created unfair competition for jobs, depressed wages, fostered discrimination and provided a lubricant for offshore outsourcing. Proving that in court is the focus of a lawsuit filed in May by the Programmers Guild, the Immigration Reform Law Institute and other groups over the Bush administration's extension of the time that foreign nationals who graduate from U.S. colleges with science or technology degrees can work on their student visas from one year to 29 months.

The lawsuit claims that the extension will exacerbate the harm caused by the H-1B program, and that the administration exceeded its legal authority by stretching the student-visa rules. But U.S. District Judge Faith Hochberg, who is hearing the case in New Jersey, is pushing back. In August, she rejected a request for a temporary injunction against the extension, citing arguments raised by the U.S. government that question whether the plaintiffs had legal standing to file the lawsuit in the first place.

Both sides recently filed court papers on that issue, in advance of an expected ruling by Hochberg later this year. The arguments over legal standing can be boiled down to the question of whether tech workers have been injured by the Bush administration's decision to extend the length of time that foreign graduates can stay in the U.S. without obtaining work visas.

The government contended in its latest filing that the injuries cited by the plaintiffs are "speculative" in nature. But in their legal brief, the plaintiffs said that prior case law is clear in showing that "economic competition is an injury-in-fact." They added that the student-visa extension "specifically targets the fields in which plaintiffs work." As a result, they claimed, "the injury is not speculative — it is intended."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=...

NJ company fined for violating H1-B visa program

September 18, 2008
TRENTON, N.J. - An Iselin computer consulting firm has been fined more than $80,000 for allegedly violating federal immigration rules that allow companies to hire foreign workers under a special visa program.

The U.S. Department of Labor has ordered the Iselin-based Data Group Inc. to pay the money to 11 foreign-born workers after an investigation found the company violated the program.

The Immigration and Nationality Act's H-1B visa program allows companies to temporarily hire foreign-born workers with special skills when they can't locally recruit to fill a position.

Federal labor officials say the company failed to pay required wages for one year to computer experts hired under the program.

More: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-...

HP lays off 25000 and runs phony job ads

IS HEWLETT-PACKARD VIOLATING IMMIGRATION LAW?
There is reason to suspect that Hewlett-Packard may be violating the immigration laws of the United States and putting Treasure Valley breadwinners out of work at the same time.

This is particularly disturbing in light of HP?s announced intention to lay off an additional 24,600 workers, half in the U.S., over the next three years. Given the soft housing market, the effect will be brutal on local HP employees who get the ax.

A number of software engineers who had worked for HP were recently given pink slips. Astonishingly, however, HP, as of yesterday, was still advertising for software engineers to work at the Boise facility and was doing so, it turns out, through the Idaho Department of Labor. The positions, however, are not listed on HP?s internal job list.

According to one recent victim of local HP engineering layoffs, one has to log in to the Department of Labor website and actually apply for a job before he finds out that the prospective employer is Hewlett-Packard.

Applicants are instructed to send their resumes to a Petra Ramirez at petra.remirez@hp.com, who works out of HP?s Cupertino, Calif. office. (Ms. Ramirez did not respond either to the IVA?s emails or phone messages asking for clarification.)

The signature block for Ms. Ramirez ? and remember, all resumes for Boise jobs flow through her rather than through normal channels ? identifies her as ?HP Americas Immigration Consultant.?

Thus it looks suspiciously like Hewlett-Packard is laying off American engineers in order to replace them with lower-priced talent from overseas, likely intending to bring them into the U.S. on H-1B visas.

But according to an August memo from the U.S. Department of Labor, this is flatly illegal, since H-1B visas are only to be granted when qualified American citizens and legal residents can?t be found. Says the memo:

?The Department of Labor has a statutory responsibility to ensure that no foreign worker (or ?alien?) is admitted for permanent residence based upon an offer of employment absent a finding that there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified and available for the work to be undertaken and that the admission of such worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers similarly employed. 8 U.S.C. ? 1182(a)(5)(A)(i).?

According to the United States General Accounting Office, employers making application for H-1B visas must certify that ?the employment of H-1B workers will not adversely affect the working conditions of other workers similarly employed in the area.?

HP, I?ve always said, is one of the most effective anti-poverty organizations in Idaho, since the antidote to poverty is jobs. But certainly part of making Idaho the friendliest place in the world to raise a family involves ensuring that HP honors our nation?s immigration laws and protects local jobs in the process.

Perhaps there is a simple and honest explanation for all this. If there is, HP owes it to us all to provide that explanation immediately.

More: http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=895

Johnston: U.S. has outsourced its self-respect (Good Read)

In his 2001 biography of Theodore Roosevelt, "Theodore Rex," Edmund Morris wrote, "Indeed (the United States) could consume only a fraction of what it produced. The rest went overseas at a price that other exporters found hard to match. As Andrew Carnegie said, "The nation that makes the cheapest steel has the other nations at its feet." "More than half the world's cotton, corn, copper, and oil flowed from the American Cornucopia, and at least one third of all steel, iron, silver, and gold."

This was the United States in 1901. Roosevelt had just become president because of William McKinley's assassination, and he recognized that America was a country of hard workers that needed a break and a share of the wealth that they were producing. Morris goes on to write, "Even if the United States was not blessed with raw materials, the excellence of her manufactured products guaranteed her dominance of world markets.

Advertisements in British magazines gave the impression that the typical Englishman woke to the ring of an Ingersoll alarm (clock), shaved with a Gillette razor, combed his hair with Vaseline tonic, buttoned his Arrow shirt, hurried downstairs for Quaker Oats, California Figs, and Maxwell House Coffee, commuted in a Westinghouse tram (body by Fisher), rose to his office in an Otis elevator, and worked all day with his Waterman pen under the efficient glare of Edison light bulbs.

"It only remains," One Fleet Street wag (in Standard American English, that's a reporter folks) suggested, "for us to take American coal to Newcastle."

Morris then goes on to write, "Behind the joke lay a real concern: The United States was already supplying beer to Germany, pottery to Bohemia, and oranges to Valencia."

Morris then proceeds to tell the reader that the United States was the richest nation on earth with an economy that was growing by leaps and bounds, and that London was about to be replaced as the financial capital of the world. It was a very rosy outlook for what would be called "The American Century." That was in 1901. In 2008, after the eight year reign of George Bush, things don't look as well for us as they did in 1901 or 2001 either. Just why is that?

Just ask anyone who has been on the point of termination in their job and asked to stay on for a few weeks to train their replacement in India what they think about the outsourcing of jobs. The man whose job was outsourced to India's sister was visiting me and telling me about his thoughts on the subject. They were a bit more colorful than I can relate here.

Don't think for a moment that a college degree or two will save you from having your job outsourced. It won't. These outsourcing horror stories are really close to home. Many people have been educated for what were supposed to be safe jobs, and would be yet, if the greedy corporations were not outsourcing their jobs or stealing their pension funds just to squeeze out a few more dollars of profit.

There should be huge fines, taxes, and other fiscal punishments imposed on companies who outsource Americans' jobs to other countries. Such fines should also be imposed on business and factories relocated to other countries. Each year we make less and less in terms of manufactured goods and lose hundreds of thousands, and sometimes millions, of jobs that pay a living wage.

Last week I was making the argument at the home of a friend that Americans are too willing to buy cheaper foreign goods or cannot find American-made goods in the market. Just to really make the point, I took my friend and his bride on a tour of their home. Their bureau drawers revealed clothes made all over the Asian continent, South America, and Mexico (which is part of North America).

Their toaster, microwave, telephone, radios and other appliances were made in China. Their shoes were made in India, and much of the food in their kitchen came from foreign nations. One of their cars was made in Japan and the other was made in Germany. OK, I confess that I drive a BMW, but my van is a Ford which was not made in Mexico, and it's also older than half the people who live in the country.

So what does this state of affairs portend for the nation?

Morris wrote in his book about the year 1901, "As a result of this billowing surge in productivity, Wall Street was awash in foreign capital. Carnegie calculated that America could afford to buy the entire United Kingdom (That's England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland) and settle Britain's national debt in the bargain.

"For the first time in history, translantic money currents were thrusting more powerfully westward than east (toward Europe). Even the Bank of England has begun to borrow money on Wall Street. New York City seemed destined to replace London as the world's financial center."

Today we are up to our eyebrows in debt to China. Thank you so much George Bush and your Republican Party too. Do you remember the nice big Clinton cash surplus we had seven and a half years ago?

So that is this week's look at then and now. It's not too pretty, is it? With this election year, I say it's time to give the other team a try. Never in our history have working people been so looked down on and shown less respect. Never has the working citizen been so stripped of a way to make a decent living. Never have workers had so many jobs taken away from them and sent to distant parts of the planet. Never in our history of the last 70 years have unions had such a low membership. Never before have working class Americans been so brutally treated in every area.

Too many people are forced by circumstances to become service workers and wage slaves. As Labor Day draws near, reflect on these things as we outsource our self respect along with the jobs of American laborers that we have betrayed as a nation. And it's really too bad that we don't make anything anymore to sell at home or abroad.

More: http://www.milforddailynews.com/opinion_columnists/x594...

Government Study Finds 21% Of H-1B Applications Violate Rules

The government estimates that fraud, including below-market wages and filings by fake businesses, is present in 13,000 of the yearly H-1B petitions filed.


October 20, 2008 04:40 PM


The United States government estimates that 21% of H-1B visa petitions are in violation of H-1B program rules -- ranging from technical violations to fraud -- based on the investigation of a representative sample.

A newly available report on the study, drafted by the Office of Fraud Detection and National Security, cites one of the most common violations as businesses that did not pay a "prevailing wage" to the H-1B beneficiary, meaning the going salary rate for a job in a specific market.

The report's estimates are based on a sample study of 246 cases, out of a total of 95,827 H-1B petitions, filed between October 2005 and March 2006. The sample cases included only those in which a business was looking to extend an existing H-1B visa for someone already in the United States, or hire someone under the H-1B program who came to the United States on a different visa. (The study excluded situations in which the visa beneficiary was still living abroad due to the complication of interviewing that person.)

Out of the 246 cases investigated, the government office determined that 51 cases, or 21%, were in violation of H-1B program rules. "When applying the overall violation rate of <21%> to the overall H-1B population, a total of approximately 20,000 petitions may have some type of fraud or technical violation," according to the report. Further extrapolation finds that 13,000 of those cases would represent acts of fraud, with the remaining 7,000 being less-severe technical violations, says the report.

More: http://www.informationweek.com/news/management/h1b/show...

Immigration racket run by Indian busted in US

Washington, June 16: With the arrest of seven Indians, US authorities have claimed to have busted an immigration racket run by an IT company owner who charged tens of thousands of dollars from expatriates by fraudulently sponsoring their H-1B work visas.

The alleged kingpin, Nilesh Dasondi, 41, was arrested last week on multiple counts of visa fraud involving his company Cygate Software and Consulting Inc. that runs offices in India and Canada.

A naturalised US citizen, Dasondi, who is also member of the Edison township board in New Jersey, was released after posting a USD800,000 bail but must remain under home confinement with electronic monitoring.

According to court papers cited in Newsday daily, Dasondi is accused of filing federal work visa and immigration documents for six people who did not work for his company between 2003 and 2007, authorities said. All the six have been arrested.

More: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Immigration-rac...

AFL-CIO says student visa extension hurts tech wages

June 13, 2008 (Computerworld) WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration's decision to allow foreign students to work in the U.S. for up to 29 months before getting an H-1B visa faces opposition from the AFL-CIO. The largest labor organization in the U.S. labeled the move a backdoor H-1B cap increase that could lower wages for U.S. tech workers, according to comments about the rule change made available this week by the government.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) made the "emergency" rule change earlier this year to deal with the limits imposed by the 85,000 slot H-1B cap. The government received 163,000 applications this year for those visas. What the DHS did was extend the Optional Practical Training (OPT) provision that previously allowed students to work after graduation for one year on their student visa. Although the change is a done deal under the agency's "emergency" rule-making provisions, the federal government still had to seek comments.

Ana Avendano, director of the AFL-CIO's immigrant worker program, wrote, in comments posted Thursday on Regulations.gov, that "by extending the OPT period and work authorization period, the interim final rule turns a student visa program into a labor market program, and essentially lifts the cap that Congress has placed on the H-1B program."

Moreover, Avendano said the rule change "allows employers to completely bypass" any of the protections in the H-1B program that prevent employers, for instance, from using foreign workers to break a strike. Moreover, students working on OPT won't have to be paid the prevailing wage as required under the H-1B program. An OPT employee could, theoretically, work for minimum wage, she wrote.

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=...

DOJ settles H-1B job ad case for $45,000

Complaint filed by Programmers Guild over H-1B-only job ad

May 2, 2008 (Computerworld) A Pittsburgh-based computer consulting company that advertised for H-1B visa holders only is paying $45,000 in civil penalties to settle allegations that it discriminated against U.S. citizens, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Thursday.

The company, iGate Mastech Inc., placed 30 job announcements between May and June of 2006 "for computer programmers that expressly favored H-1B visa holders to the exclusion of U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents and other legal U.S. workers," the DOJ said in a statement.

A complaint against iGate Mastech was filed by the Programmers Guild in 2006. It was one of dozens of complaints lodged by the Summit, N.J.-based organization against various companies.

John Miano, who founded the guild, said in a statement that the DOJ's announcement was "is probably the most visible result" of the guild's campaign against companies that discriminate against U.S. workers "in favor of cheap H-1B workers."

One job advertisement by iGate Mastech for a Java developer on Dice Holdings Inc.'s job board said "Only H-1s apply, and should be willing to transfer H-1B."

"The problem of companies only looking for H-1B workers is a serious one," said Miano. "We are only scratching the surface right now with the companies that are brazen enough to put out ads like these."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=...

US senators question 9 IT firms over H1-B visas

Despite an over 50 per cent drop in the number of H1-B visas issued to some Indian IT firms in 2007 against 2006, US Democrat senators Richard J Durbin and Charles E Grassley have written to nine Indian companies that figure among the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B visa petitions in 2007 seeking detailed information on how they use the visa programme.

The letters, which come ahead of the US elections in November, are part of an effort to determine if the H-1B programme is being used for its intended purpose to fill a temporary worker shortage.

The senators had written a letter on similar lines last May too.

The Indian IT firms are Infosys Technologies, Wipro, Satyam Computer Services, Cognizant Tech Solutions, Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), Patni Computer Systems, Larsen & Toubro Infotech, i-Flex Solutions and Mphasis.

More: http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?au...

Tech companies get creative to hire foreign workers in the U.S.

On Tuesday, the federal government begins accepting visa applications for 65,000 skilled foreign workers. But much as it could use some extra help, Progress Software Corp. won't be applying for any of these coveted H-1B visas.

Instead, the Massachusetts company is embracing a different visa program, called L-1, that lets businesses import workers who've already been hired at their overseas offices.

...

Despite the slowing economy, companies say it's hard to find enough highly skilled workers. The H-1B program was designed to help businesses hire capable foreign workers, but demand for the 65,000 visas far exceeded supply in 2007, and the same is expected this year.

...

But critics of U.S. immigration policy say some companies are misusing the L-1 program. "We have found and heard lots of stories recently of companies that are really kind of abusing it," said Bob Meltzer, chief executive of Visanow.com, a Chicago company that processes visa applications online.

More: http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stor...

U.S. Sen. Grassley: Questions immigration agency about fraud

U.S. Sen. Grassley: Questions immigration agency about fraud
10/9/2008

Grassley Questions Immigration Agency About Fraud in H-1B Program

fraud takes opportunities away from American workers and law-abiding employers

WASHINGTON – Following release of an internal report by Citizenship and Immigration Services that outlines serious fraud in the H-1B visa program, Senator Chuck Grassley today sent a letter to the agency asking for additional details about how the government is enforcing the H-1B visa laws.

“The results of this report validate exactly what I’ve been fearful of-some employers are bringing H-1B visa holders into our country with complete disregard for the law. More needs to be done to ensure the American worker is our first priority,” Grassley said. “The system is obviously broken when an H-1B visa holder is working at a laundromat rather than in high-skilled industries. The fraud and abuse outlined in this report shows that it’s time to put some needed reform in place.”

Grassley has led the effort to reform the H-1B visa program. He introduced a comprehensive H-1B and L visa reform bill last year with Senator Dick Durbin that would give priority to American workers and crack down on unscrupulous employers who deprive qualified Americans of high-skill jobs. He has also asked questions of both American and foreign based companies about their use of the H-1B visa program.

Grassley said the report should serve as a wake-up call to the agency. He urged them to better detect serious violations by employers who abuse the system.

Here is a copy of the letter Grassley sent to Jonathan Scharfen, the Acting Director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. A copy of the report can be found on Grassley’s website, http://grassley.senate.gov .

October 9, 2008

The Honorable Jonathan Scharfen
Acting Director
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
Department of Homeland Security
20 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D. C. 20529

Dear Director Scharfen:

As a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Refugees, I have taken a keen interest in the H-1B visa program over the years and how it benefits the United States. However, I have found serious problems with this program, including loopholes that are disadvantageous to American workers and U.S. businesses. My concerns are further intensified after reading your agency’s Benefit Fraud and Compliance Assessment that points to direct fraud and abuse by a number of employers and petitioners.

Before I begin to discuss the report, I want to express my immense frustration about the length of time it took for USCIS to provide the results to Congress. I first inquired about FDNS doing a benefit fraud assessment just after it finished the religious worker report in August 2005. Since then, I have asked for briefings and updates, only to be put off and told to wait. In response, I asked the appropriations committee to include language in the FY2008 Homeland Security spending bill to provide funding and require the agency to finish the assessment. In April 2008, you responded to me in writing by stating, “I anticipate that I will be able to share the report with you within the next few weeks.” The H-1B benefit fraud assessment was completed several months ago, yet the results were apparently hidden from Congress at a time when legislation could have been enacted. The constant delay has been unacceptable, and likely problematic for USCIS adjudicators who may have continued to rubber stamp fraudulent applications for H-1B visas.

The H-1B benefit fraud and compliance assessment highlights the rampant fraud and abuse that is taking place in the program. Experts have acknowledged that many employers disregard the spirit of the law, and find ways to circumvent worker protections to hire cheaper foreign labor. With a violation rate of more than 20%, this assessment should serve as a wake-up call to your agency that the H-1B visa program is not working as it was intended.

It alarms me that USCIS had already approved 217 of the 246 cases in the sample. This means that 19% of the approved cases were associated with fraud or involved employers who broke the law. Only 2% of the sampled cases were denied, which suggest that not enough fraud prevention and detection efforts were incorporated in the adjudication process.

I also find it concerning that FDNS uses the phrase “technical violation” when it relates to employers or alien beneficiaries who failed to comply with the law. When an employer requires its workers to pay for the visa and application fees, or does not pay them the required prevailing wage, it is against the law. This blatant disregard for the law is not a “technical” violation.

While the H-1B benefit fraud and compliance assessment proves that wrongdoing truly does exist, it also brings up many unanswered questions that USCIS must address. Therefore, I would appreciate a response to the following questions:

1. What actions, if any, has USCIS taken since the assessment was completed earlier this Spring?

2. Since the assessment was finalized, has USCIS taken steps to review, evaluate and/or revoke petitions or applications approved, denied, or pending after March 31, 2006 (the date of the sample)?

3. More than 80% of the violations were detected because of site visits. It’s evident that false job locations, shell business scams and inconsistent job duties could easily be prevented if more site visits were conducted by USCIS. What efforts will your agency take to increase the number of site visits to increase fraud detection in the program?

4. Given that Congress allows USCIS to collect a $500 fraud prevention and detection fee, please describe how you will use these funds to more effectively root out fraud and abuse in the H-1B visa program.

5. The assessment states that FDNS refers cases of fraud to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for consideration of formal criminal investigation and prosecution. “ICE then has 60 days to accept the case for investigation or decline it and return it to FDNS. If ICE declines to open a criminal investigation, FDNS forwards the case with its administrative findings to a USCIS adjudications component for denial or revocation of the petition or application, as appropriate.”

* How many times has FDNS referred a case to ICE for investigation? * Of those cases referred to ICE, how many, to your agency’s knowledge, were investigated? How many were declined by ICE and returned to FDNS? * Of those cases referred and then investigated by ICE, how many petitions or applications were denied or revoked? How many cases were approved, despite FDNS’ findings that fraud was committed or a violation of law occurred?

6. Given that the assessment examined all levels of fraud, including the filing of the labor certification with the Department of Labor, did USCIS inform the Department of Labor as it worked to complete the assessment? What recommendations, if any, has USCIS relayed to the Department of Labor to improve the labor certification process? What response, as far as you know, did the Department of Labor have to the assessment and to your recommendations?

7. What steps does USCIS plan to take to improve communication and coordination with the Department of Labor with regard to the H-1B visa program?

8. Please describe in more detail the abuse by employers to put a beneficiary in a non-productive status (or “on the bench”). What steps has USCIS taken to ensure that visa holders are not imported only to be benched, unpaid, or inactive?

9. The assessment points out which occupational categories are more susceptible to fraud and abuse. Does USCIS plan to train adjudicators and institute detection strategies to more effectively determine when an employer misrepresents, underpays, or forges documents in order to obtain an H-1B visa holder in these (and all) categories?

10. What actions did USCIS take against companies that were found to violate the program? Will the employers (and their employees) be held accountable or referred to the Department of Justice for prosecution? Will the guilty employers be considered for debarment or suspension from being eligible for federal contracts, and will these employers be referred to the General Services Administration so that other agencies can be made aware of their misconduct? Will USCIS deny these employers further participation in the H-1B visa program?

I hope you share my frustration with the results of this benefit fraud and compliance assessment. I strongly urge you to do everything within your authority to make sure that the program is used as Congress intended, and that employers are held accountable for any wrongdoing. Fraud and abuse cannot be tolerated, especially as many legitimate businesses in the United States are willing to play by the rules to bring in needed temporary workers in high-skilled industries.

I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible so that we can move forward and enact legislation that will reform the H-1B visa program. Changes must be made to put integrity back into our visa programs, and your input will help us tackle that endeavor.

Sincerely,

Charles E. Grassley

United States Senator
(Dick Durbin is working on this with Charles Grassley)

http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=138527

Durbin and Grassley Zero in on H-1B Visa Data


Tuesday, April 1, 2008


– United States Senators Dick Durbin (D-IL) and Chuck Grassley (R-IA) sent a letter today to the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B visa petitions in 2007, seeking detailed information on how each firm uses the visa program. These firms were responsible for nearly 20,000 of the available H-1B visas last year.

“By the end of the day today, all of the H-1B visas for the year will likely be spoken for,” Durbin said. “The H-1B program can’t be allowed to become a job-killer in America. We need to ensure that firms are not misusing these visas, causing American workers to be unfairly deprived of good high-skill jobs here at home.”

Durbin and Grassley have repeatedly raised concerns that the loopholes in the H-1B and L-1 visa programs are allowing for the outsourcing of American jobs. Last year, they introduced the H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act, which would require H-1B applicants to make a good faith effort to hire American workers first and would give the Department of Labor greater oversight authority in investigating possible fraud and abuse.

"I have no doubt that we'll hear arguments all day as to why the cap on H-1B visas should be raised, but nobody should be fooled. The bottom line is that there are highly skilled American workers being left behind, searching for jobs that are being filled by H-1B visa holders," Grassley said. "It's time to close the loopholes that have allowed this to happen and enact real reform."

The letters are part of an effort to determine if the H-1B program is being used for its intended purpose - to fill a worker shortage for a temporary time period. Durbin and Grassley said they expect the companies to cooperate and answer their questions to ensure that accurate information is being used to address future reforms of the program.

The H-1B visa program allows American companies to employ temporary foreign workers in “specialty occupations,” often in the high tech industry, while the L visa program is for intracompany transfers of managers, executives and specialists.

The letter was sent to the following companies: Infosys Technologies Ltd., Wipro Limited, Satyam Computer Services Ltd., Cognizant Tech Solutions, Microsoft Corporation, Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., Patni Computer Systems Inc., US Technology Resources LLC, I-Flex Solutions Inc., Intel Corporation, Accenture LLP, Cisco Systems Inc., Ernst & Young LLP, Larsen & Toubro Infotech Ltd., Deloitte & Touche LLP, Google Inc., Mphasis Corporation, University of Illinois at Chicago, American Unit Inc., Jsmn International Inc., Objectwin Technology Inc., Deloitte Consulting, Prince Georges County Public Schools, JPMorgan Chase and Co., and Motorola Inc.

A copy of the letter appears below:


April 1, 2008

Dear Sir/Madam:

We write to inquire about your company’s use of H-1B and L-1 visas. Congress intended these visa programs to benefit the American economy by allowing U.S. employers to import high-skilled or highly-specialized workers when needed to complement the domestic workforce. However, we are concerned that these programs, as currently structured, are facilitating the outsourcing of American jobs.

As you know, today is the deadline for filing H-1B visa petitions. If past years are any guide, enough applications will be filed today to exhaust the annual allotment of H-1B visas. We understand that many employers would like Congress to make more H-1B visas available. However, we must be mindful of the impact importing more foreign workers will have on American workers, especially in light of the recent economic downturn.

We believe that before increasing the H-1B cap, Congress must close loopholes in the H-1B and L-1 programs that harm American workers. For example, under current law only employers that employ H-1B visa holders as a large percentage of their U.S. workforce are required to attempt to recruit American workers before hiring a H-1B visa holder. Most companies can explicitly discriminate against American workers by recruiting and hiring only H-1B visa holders. As the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has said: “H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of a foreign worker.”

Additionally, we are concerned that some companies may be circumventing the requirements of the H-1B visa program by using other visa programs, such as the L-1, to bring in cheaper foreign labor. While the L-1 visa program allows intercompany transfers to enter the United States, experts have concluded that some companies use the L-1 visa to bypass even the minimal protections for American workers that are in the H-1B program.

We have introduced S.1035, the H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act of 2007. This bipartisan legislation would reform the H-1B and L-1 visa programs to prevent abuses and protect American companies and workers. For example, S.1035 would require all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder to first make a good-faith effort to hire an American worker.

According to statistics recently released by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, your company was one of the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B petitions in 2007. Understanding your company’s use of high-skilled visas would help to inform further our views of the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Accordingly, we would appreciate your responses to the following questions:

1.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years and fiscal year 2009, how many H-1B visa petitions have you submitted to USCIS and how many of these petitions have been approved?
b. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many people have you employed in the U.S. and outside the U.S.?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many U.S. citizens, H-1B visa holders, L-1A, and L-1B visa holders, and other foreign nationals have you employed in the U.S. and outside the U.S.? If you have employed other foreign nationals in the U.S., please specify the type of visas held by such nationals.

2.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, have you been a H-1B dependent employer?
b. Would you support legislation prohibiting a company from hiring additional H-1B visa holders if the company employs more than 50 people and more than 50% of the company’s employees are H-1B and L-1 visa holders? Please explain.

3.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many Labor Condition Applications (LCA) have you submitted to DOL and how many of these LCAs have been approved? How many H-1B visa holders were covered by these LCAs?
b. If DOL denied any LCAs you submitted, what reasons did DOL give for the denial?
c. If you are a H-1B dependent employer, for how many LCAs have you claimed an exemption from the requirements to make a good-faith effort to recruit American workers and not to displace American workers (i.e. Alternative C in section F-1 of the LCA)? How many H-1B visa holders were covered by these exempt LCAs?

4.
a. Please provide a detailed description of your recruitment process for open positions, including any relevant company policies and where you advertise.
b. Do you give priority to U.S. citizens when filling open positions? Do you make a good-faith effort to recruit U.S. citizens for open positions before recruiting foreign nationals? If yes, please provide a detailed description of these efforts.
c. Would you support legislation requiring all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder first to make a good-faith effort to hire an American worker? Please explain.
d. Would you support legislation requiring all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder first to advertise the job opening for a reasonable period of time on a website operated by DOL? Please explain.

5.
a. Are there any positions for which you only recruit or give priority to foreign nationals?
b. Are there any positions for which you advertise that you will only hire foreign nationals and/or H-1B visa holders?
c. Would you support legislation requiring that employers may not advertise a job as available only for H-1B visa holders or recruit only H-1B visa holders for a job? Please explain.

6.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many foreign workers, H-1B visa holders, L-1A, and L-1B visa holders have you sponsored for employment-based legal permanent residency?
b. How many such applications are pending?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many of your H-1B, L-1A, and L-1B employees have received employment-based green cards?

7.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many employees have you terminated outside the U.S.?
b. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many employees have you terminated in the U.S.?
c. How many of these employees were U.S. citizens?
d. Did H-1B visa holders replace or take over the job responsibilities of any of these terminated employees?
e. Would you support legislation prohibiting all employers from displacing an American worker with a H-1B visa holder? Please explain.

8.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many of your H-1B and L-1 employees have you contracted to other companies?
b. How many such employees have you contracted on a full-time basis?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, please provide a list of the companies to whom you have contracted your H-1B or L-1 employees and how many H-1B and L-1 employees you have contracted to each of these companies.
d. Have any employees of companies to whom you have contracted your H-1B or L-1 employees been displaced by these employees?
e. How do you determine whether you are involved in secondary displacement, i.e. your H-1B or L-1 employees are displacing employees of a contractor company?
f. Would you support legislation prohibiting all employers from engaging in secondary displacement?

9.
a. What positions do your current H-1B employees fill?
b. How many of your current H-1B employees received higher education degrees in the U.S.?
c. How many of your current H-1B employees entered the U.S. for the purpose of working for your company?
d. What is the average age of your current H-1B employees?
e. What is the average level of experience of your current H-1B employees?
f. What is the average length of stay in the U.S. of your current H-1B employees?
g. How many of your current H-1B employees are skill level one, two, three, and four?
h. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your current H-1B employees?
i. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your company’s U.S. citizen employees who are situated similarly to your H-1B employees?

10.
a. What positions do your current L-1A and L-1B employees fill?
b. What is the average age of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
c. What is the average level of experience of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
d. What is the average length of stay in the U.S. of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
e. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
f. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your company’s U.S. citizen employees who are situated similarly to your L-1A and L-1B employees?

11.
a. Have you received any complaints from your H-1B and/or L-1 employees about unfair hiring practices, wages, or work conditions? If so, please provide details.
b. Have you received any complaints from your American employees about your company’s use of the H-1B or L-1 visa programs? If so, please provide details.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Richard J. Durbin
U.S. Senator

Charles E. Grassley
U.S. Senator

More: http://durbin.senate.gov/showRelease.cfm?releaseId=2953...

Look Into Their Eyes
By: Fast Company
These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries. Try telling them that offshoring is a good thing in the long run.

Kyle Bonds
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Bonds, 44, was a contractor at IBM when he heard rumors of work moving abroad. Figuring his job could be next, he took a lower-paying but more secure post elsewhere.

"If I had stayed, you would be talking to a truck driver with a waitress wife."

Myra Bronstein
Mercer Island, Washington

Bronstein, a software engineer, says she had to train her offshore replacements herself or risk losing her severance package and unemployment eligibility.

"My industry just crashed and burned. I think it's shortsighted to try and get another job in this field."

Charles Buhrmann
Greenville, Texas

Before his position went to Canada, Buhrmann was a contractor for an insurance company's policy management system. Now he designs Web sites part-time for $8.50 an hour.

"If they're going to offer a job overseas for half the pay, why not offer it to the person here?"

Melissa Charters
Los Angeles, California

Charters had 15 years of experience in IT when her job as a system security administrator was outsourced, then offshored to India. She's becoming a home-economics teacher.

"How can our country's information stay secure when it's all being done over there?"

Lidia Estes
Bedford, Texas

Estes, 55, learned her job managing programmers with Computer Horizons was going to be offshored in late 2002. Now, the woman who has worked in IT since she was 19 sells Mary Kay Cosmetics.

"I don't know what to do. This has been my whole life."

Linda Evans
Matthews, North Carolina

In 2002, Evans's programmer husband was laid off and forced to train his Indian replacements. A new employer threatened to fire him after he was interviewed by a local paper.

"We never feel safe. When he gets called in for review, he thinks, 'This is it--it's all over today.' "

James Fusco
East Brunswick, New Jersey

Since IBM sent his work to Canada, Fusco has a new job as a systems analyst--at less pay. He has joined a lawsuit seeking retraining for software workers.

"The most important thing I've lost is an intangible. It's the loss of a secure feeling, because I really lost a career."

Michael Gist
Fort Worth, Texas

For Gist, 41, a software engineer who was replaced by a temporary worker who later went back to India, losing his job meant more than losing income. Although he now runs a home-furnishings store, he's lost his passion.

"I just love writing code. I'm a computer geek inside and out."

Corey Goode
Dallas, Texas

Goode, 34, had a contract job with Microsoft to support its call centers. It included secretly setting up user accounts for workers in Bangalore who'd replace domestic employees. Just before his first child was born, he says his own job moved to India.

"Globalization is here to stay, but we need to ease the growing pains."

Read over the pages and pages of people who have lost their jobs.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profile...

I have read a lot over the past several years about this topic and the one thing I always see is a lot of mis-informed individuals. It never ceases to amaze me that the proponents of offshoring American jobs, are the ones who know the least and back up their claims with little facts. Here are the facts. The whole H1-B visa program is a grandchild of the Walters-Curren(Curran) Act of 1952. The act basically allowed for "special handling" of certain worker visas which would allow them to side step normal process of obtaining visas. In the 1970s, American colleges and universities, claiming to be the bright minds they aspire to be, saw the value in "special handling" for foreign students to occupy seats in classrooms that would otherwise be occupied by an American, say a math or science student as an example. You tell me why? Let me help you not avoid the reality. Non US students pay a lot of money to attend American universities. Why in the world would anyone want John or Susie Smith from Kansas to sit in that chair when Sonny Singh from Bangalore could be sitting there and the school would be making 300%+ more for that same seat? I can promise you it's not because they are being humanitarians. It is about MONEY and GREED; and that's all it is about. In the 1990s Mr. Clinton decided that it would be a fabulous idea to also allow American companies to get that "special handling". All sounded good at the time. The only problem was no matter how much those proponents of offshoring believed/believe the corporate machine to be honest and forthcoming, They have proven themselves to have zero integrity and the same suit of liars that the academic world proved themselves to be. It was and is about MONEY and GREED. If someone denies that this takes place and are the facts, I have to call you a liar and or an idiot. Those are facts, I don't care what they teach you in MBA classes. This is an outright sellout of Americans, a plain and simple expolitation. Is it a wonder that less Americans get math and science degrees...? No, it is simple, An American can't sit in a classroom chair when someone from another country is already sitting in it. Does this only make sense to me? Americans have only one choice, you either choose to preserve the future for yourself and your children and keep fighting for our jobs and demand accountability or you can do as a lot of people do which is sell your future, and the future of your children for the here and now gain. Can anyone equate this mentality to anything that is happening right now? The mortgage industry did whatever it took to show profits NOW. They forgot something though, there will be a tomorrow and all those loans they pawned off into the market hoping someone would buy, and they did, would have to land somewhere and they have. The problem lies in that someone eventually gets stuck holding the worthless loan with no where else to pass it onto. So here we are now and naturally lenders are now humbled and in despair and are freeloading off the American public once again trying to get a handout because they had no concern for the future a few short months ago. Can you see the pattern? We can go over every single industry that has mooched or attempted to mooch a handout from taxpayers and you will find in almost every case a situation of greed putting them where they are at now. It is time for corporate America to take responsibility and invest in this country instead of us always bailing them out if not with our tax dollars we allow them to pawn our jobs to overseas workers to make their short range bottom line look good. It is all about MONEY and not globalization or any other lies that our government and corporations feed us. Those are the facts....

I won't reveal my name because I was black-balled in 2002 for just these statements. I am one of those people mentioned in the Fast Company article (Which they misquoted me in a major way, btw). I will give you the short and sweet version. For 2001 I payed $21,000 in income tax. I maxed out my 401k (at the time was $11,500 I believe). I bought stock on the side from the US stock markets. By 2002 forward for the next couple of years, after a so called American company sent my job to India, and I couldn't get a job if I paid someone. Ironically corporate America was claiming they couldn't find anyone to fill these jobs that I was 100% qualified for, as I was screaming at the top of my lungs "I'LL DO IT"... I would even do it for half the pay I was doing it for just the year before. I just needed a job writing writing one of the 10 computer languages I know and my career back. They ignored me, as they ignored all of us tech workers who were essentailly begging for our jobs. I got not one interview even though I had exactly what they were asking for. You could say well maybe my skills were bad or I didn't interview well.... That could be a legitimate argument but not one person even talked to me, not one. I had a professional resume writer redo my resume,.... nothing. Then every time I picked up a newspaper I would read how there was a shortage of tech workers in this country so lets go to India to get them. Can anyone smell what I smell. Back to the subject... From 2002 to 2006 I went through my savings, sold my stock at a loss, I cashed out my 401k all in order to eat and have a roof over my head which I got penalized in a big way for taking an early withdraw before I was 62. Funny, you could take the money out before 62 yrs of age to buy a house but not to buy food for yourself to sustain your life. After going through all that and not being able to pay my debts anymore, I filed bankruptcy. It was the worst day of my life. I remember wondering what was left of my life? I went from working hard, refining my career, investing, saving, paying taxes and trying to create wealth so I could one day retire and have some kind of life, to just hoping I could survive another day. I felt I had failed myself in every way. When I left the Federal Court House that day I took a long walk and decided then and there I would never invest in the stock market again, I would never trust another corporation again that is if I ever got another job. I very glad to say I have lived up to my promise. So the net result of all this is now I have a career again, thanks to my own ingenuity and persistance and no thanks to any corporation, I don't invest money in any markets, I contribute zero to a 401k. So I guess since they screwed me now I screw them in my own small by not investing in these markets and finding legal ways to keep my money from the US government. (What's the difference from any corporation? call me un American, call them that first). So who won? I can promise you it wasn't me but in turn this is one person who will not invest in their companies ever again. If enough people speak with their money then I can assure you they will listen. Money is the ONLY thing these people understand.

This may be long winded but when I see some MBA, or some idealist post their garbage about how it is good to sellout America I just wanted you to know how wonderful it really is. I wish you were there right beside me back then and you would know just how wonderful it really is. In fact why don't you go and quit your job in this market so your company can "globalize". Also don't look for a new job to simulate the bottom falling out of your job field as it did in my job field in 2002 and then you tell me how wonderful it is. I promise you, your opinion will change very fast when reality slaps you in the face.

Fortunately, as I said, I made my own way again after several years of very awful hardship. I go to work everyday and I count on nothing from no one. My dreams went from a comfortable retirement and a peaceful existence to hoping after I retire that I die before my savings runs out. I don't count on the US government and I damn sure don't count on corporate Amercia. Here in fact is what I fear most, That I outlive the amount of money I have saved for after I can no longer work. I fear then getting sick and having no money. At that point I truly feel that this government would let me lay under a bridge and suffer until I die. You may think I am full of whatever but I promise you, this is the way I really feel and if you have been through what I have you might understand. And sadly enough my story is only one of thousands just as sad.

So offshoring is good...? Go back living in your ignorant bubble but pray like hell it never happens to you .... Pray like hell....

I hear where you're coming from and agree with you 100%.

I think your post was directed at "sledgehammer" and not me.

I'm completely against all outsourcing/insourcing and anything that resembles either, including H-1B's.

IT worker here....still struggling to keep a job. I've taken at least 7 pay cuts since Bush took office. As of late, my health insurance has been cut. (Have to pay COBRA $1500/month)

Welcome to DU. :hi:

i was basically extending your post. someone had emailed me and said they saw my name mentioned and sent me the link.... i very rarely post anything anymore so i am a little rusty.

hang in there.... i know it is difficult. i was there for 5 years with nothing. i always found my peace by looking to what i did have which wasn't much, not what was taken from me but NEVER accept it. use your vote, use your money, use whatever you can to call these people out. just do not harm your self in the process. i learned that lesson the hard way. i sold everything just to call them out. it took a very long time to recover. i don't think i ever will mentally.

alwys protect yourself.... your #1

I found it here as another poster had posted it in the past.

Hanging in there is all that I can do. I do not accept what is going on in this country with the technology field and post news here to make others aware. I've had many compliments over the years as many did not know exactly how much companies are outsourcing.....not to mention the on-going fraud with the H-1B visas. I will continue to do this to educate people and to write all of my elected officials.

I hope you have since found some work and can be at peace. :hug:

Excellent post. It's best served raw and still warm! :)

"Non US students pay a lot of money to attend American universities. Why in the world would anyone want John or Susie Smith from Kansas to sit in that chair when Sonny Singh from Bangalore could be sitting there and the school would be making 300%+ more for that same seat?"

That's not true:

- Non US students at private universities pay the same amount as anyone else.

- Non US students at public universities pay the same amount as any out-of-state student.

There is no financial gain for bringing in a foreign student for the university.

are ineligible for Federal student loans. Chances are much better that the tuition costs are paid up front in full.

...if tuition is not paid by the payment deadline of each term. Whether that money is coming from your pocket or the Fed, it doesn't matter. And that deadline is usually within a few days of the first day of class. It doesn't matter if the student is international or not.

There really is no advantage for the universities to get international students over US citizens/perm residents.

The last place I taught at had several dozen students from the Persian Gulf area who, judging from the condos they lived in and the cars they drove, didn't need any financial aid. Early in my teaching career, I had a Korean student whose father had bought him a DeLorean for his 18th birthday.

There's a great deal of financial advantage for universities, public or private, in snagging wealthy foreign students. They pay full tuition without financial aid (at private schools) or out-of-state tuition (with no financial aid).

Coleges actually send members of their admissions offices on recruiting trips overseas, something they wouldn't do if it weren't cost effective for them

...are not wealthy at all. Nearly every F-1 visa student I knew in college was using their parents' entire life savings to study here. And just as snagging "wealthy foreign students" could be advantageous, so is snagging wealthy American students. If it was all about financial gain, then you are talking about a very small minority (wealthy foreign students) who could easily be replaced with wealthy American students.

At public institutions, there is no financial aid available to foreign students - so the financial gain is the same as admitting any out-of-state student.

At private institutions, financial aid is often available to foreign students - depending largely on their academic record. And for those who can afford it, what would be the difference in admitting foreign students who can pay full, vs US students who don't take any institutional aid? (note: Fed aid is just like a student's bank account from the institution's perspective).

Recruiting trips are done for a couple of reasons. First of all, a lot of US citizens and perm residents live abroad. I attended a college fair in my junior year, and it was targeted primarily to Americans.

Second, there is competition among universities to snag international students. This is done primarily from a cultural/diversity perspective i.e. each university wants an international element to add to its student body. But also from an academic standpoint - nearly all international students have equal or greater qualifications than the majority of American students admitted (I can't say the same for work visas, especially in the cases of abuse).

FS= foreign student
AS=American Student



Acountry gives $ -> AS enrolls in school -> public or private university gets paid

Fcountry gives $ -> FS comes to America and enrolls in school -> public OR private university gets paid ..... A LOT OF $$$$!!!!

if there are 30 seats in a class room and FSs are sitting in 15 of them then what is the max number of ASs who can be sitting in that classroom...? = 15!
15FS + 15AS = 30 FS/AS
0FS + 30AS = 30 AS

tell me there is no difference. that crap about how they are "smarter" than Americans is an outright contrived propaganda myth that helps propel the idea of that we somehow "need" them here. we don't need any of them period. you can argue what you want to but i know for a fact that foreign governments (ie.. china) encourages their students to go to American universities and often pays for it. THAT IS A FACT...

As for diversity.... I have some ocean front property in Idaho i would like to sell you...

this is the exact example of what i am talking about... someone believing the propaganda manufactured by our politicians, ceo's and in this case universities in order to exploit Americans for their own gain and hurting the rest of the country. THANK YOU...
You proved my point....
I'll let you babble on....

...that foreign students are smarter in any way than American students. What I said was that universities try to recruit the top students from high schools across the world. Since there are a very limited number of international spots available in each university, this means that the admission requirements are more stringent than they are for American students.

America does not "need" anyone here at all. But they have used immigration pretty effectively for decades (maybe centuries). It's worked mostly to America's advantage.

Each foreign student does take a place away from an US citizen/perm resident. I agree with that. But I still don't see how there's more money to be made with foreign students. The only difference in your equation is that the FS "comes to America" - I don't get how that equals "A LOT OF $$$$" for the university.

but it goes back to my original equation...

foreign student tuition is higher than an American students especially in state students. you mention private schools.... i would have to research those to say for fact but i recall from research a few years back that there are some that have higher tuition for foreign students but that is a small portion of American universities... most Universities are of the public sector. besides that even if the tuitions were equal (but they are not) it is money flowing from one economy to another. that is a factor (not as far as the universities are concerned) but as far as the federal gov (who basically run these public schools) it does matter. why would universities spend the amount of money they do to go to other countries to recruit students...? the answer is not diversity. that is something they teach you in public policy class. never forget it is always about MONEY... i have learned this the hard way... spare yourself and i am not being a smartass... i am dead serious. the trail always leads back to GREED and MONEY.

you have to read the bills that passed congress in the 1970s. i have read some of them and it is quite clear the intention. in fact it was directly referenced as the reason for the legislation in the specific bill i was reading at the time. my jaw hit floor. blatant abuse...

i don't know if you are up for it but i will try to find the legislation i have read and you can see for yourself. it is in black and white.

...I have never seen additional tuition for foreign students. For public universities, it's the exact same as any American out-of-state student. For private universities, it's the same as everyone else.

But, I've been out of the loop for a while, so I could be wrong.

I know there may be a nominal per-term fee (e.g. $25 or $50) to support the international student office staff, to cover the cost of filing the visas, to cover international postage, etc. Purely administrative charges to cover certain costs that are a direct result of admitting the international students.

Some of the facts in your post may not be entirely accurate e.g. I don't think Clinton had anything to do with H visas (except that Congress passed the increased caps during his presidency) but I could be wrong.

Here's a link to the history of the H-1 visa that I find useful (it also spells out some of the harmful effects of the visa):

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters13e8

Thanks for sharing your story. And yes, I have already been burned by offshoring and got laid off. Like you, I was able to bring myself back on track after a period of difficulty.

i know how you would think that because bill clinton rarely made himself be directly associated with the issue. it is pretty much the same ol political crap that takes place....

look at this link. this picture says 2007 but i know it is older than that. it was most likely taken in the late 1990's the height of the sellout of American workers and their families...

http://modernpatriot.blogspot.com/2007_09_01_archive.html

half way down the page on the right is a picture of hilary clinton at the grand opening of Tata Consul ting's new office in new york city i believe, a few years back. Tata consulting, in case you don't know is one of the top if not the largest INDIAN (EAST INDIAN) outsourcing companies. they are come to this country and rape american jobs along with Wipro and others. this does not happen by accident. hilary is not smart enough to turn a computer on why would she care anything about Tata consulting....? bill clinton has very strong ties with outsourcing companies.... i would say a very direct tie....

and here are the net results...
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/business/Tata-consultancy-posts-193-percent-growth-in-2007-08_10040535.html

just look around... hell google clinton and tata consulting and see what you get. this is no secret...

when there are pictures that exist of your wife present at the opening of one of their brand new offices shaking hands with the ceo of a company who takes jobs and livelihoods away from americans and their families.... it is hard to deny the evidence.... like impossible.

i am warning you.... don't believe what th US gov tells you. they base a large part of their so called facts off of the ITAA which is a corporate America funded group of sellouts who provide the government with whatever skewed data they need to get bills passed or gain public opinion or whatever.... it is a SELLOUT of this country plain and simple. i don't know how to impress this upon anyone anymore.

this is a true story....
i gave an interview to a large and well known newspaper in 2004. i called out a former ceo of a large corp who outsources to india in a major way. i made some factual statements on the record and the reporter called to set up an interview with this person. they thought it was one of those fluff interviews where they get their ego stroked except this reporter was going for the throat. when the questioning went the ugly path they promptly ended the interview. the story printed anyway with my name (with others) included. within 24 my cell phone rings and some one stated in a friendly voice "are the who did the interview with " i replied it depends on who is asking. the friendly voice said "i just wanted to make sure you were ok... i wouldn't want anything bad to happen to you...". i went into a rage i called him every name i could manufacture. he laughed and hung up. i tried to get the records of the call, no one would provide them, but i know exactly who it was. from that day forward i have carried my 9mm with me almost everywhere i go and i can legally do so b/c i have a license to carry i obtained b/c to things like this. so if you think this is not a big dirty business then you think again.

after that i gave a few more interviews just to defy the threat of this person, then i got out. i went through depression and struggling financially to the point i didn't care anymore. one thing they didn't consider is that when you take away someone's life and they have nothing, they don't care what you do to them.... they now hold the ace and that's where i was. i ask anyone to explain why this person would be so threatened if i was some idiot trying just cause problems.... that was not the case, they knew i was dead on with my statement to that reporter and i have to assume it was/is a very sensitive subject with them, which just happened to be about how his company was one of the largest outsourcers of American jobs in this country.

so i just tell you to verify the facts from reputable sources and then put the facts together as they fit not as corporate and political America tells you they fit....

Thank you for your post, although it is heart breaking reading your story, but is such reality for us, the American Worker.

I believe that every damn Visa Program, EVERY ONE of them should be suspended until we figure out a better way & be able to fund these programs, write the visa programs that protect not only our country, but American Workers FIRST right to work, to fill a position.

Then for the outsourcing of jobs, we know that corporations are making so much money, that they will happily pay the higher taxes, so further penalties, or perhaps "rewards" for bringing our J O B S home.

Yep, call me radical, I simply do not care, it is time to stop playing a blind eye to all of these patterns and start thinking about the USA FIRST and her citizens.

Again, welcome to DU and I hope all is well with you.
Azlady

If you are for protecting US students and workers at all costs, then targeting all visa programs is a more logical approach than targeting one type of visa. I will take the liberty to extrapolate your position and take this to mean that all illegal immigrants should be sent back too - nothing will protect American workers more than that. Please correct me if this assumption is incorrect.

BTW, just a fact, Barack Obama Sr. was in the US on a student visa. By his getting the opportunity to study here, America now has the leader who will define the 21st century for America and possibly the world, and the greatest leader I have ever seen, and will ever see in my lifetime. A leader who is proud and vocal of his immigrant father's quest for the American Dream.

I understand that was then, and this is now. I am not equating today's problems with the past - the needs and situations are totally, completely different. And one specific case does not justify any program in any domain.

But with Obama being the son of a student visa holder, I wouldn't count on him stopping visa programs. In fact, he might encourage more visas (or keep things the same), along with a guarantee of less abuse and greater oversight.

i can't say i agree with mr. obama 100% but that is ok. the main issue is to agree with him on critical issues. i had a problem with his illegal immigrant position. i ask why is it not ok to build a fence....? we have one around the white house and it is heavily guarded....why...? to keep people who may harm the president, away from him. it is in the name of SECURITY. sounds familiar.... all the sudden we want one on the border and it is a naughty thing. some people even call it racist. bottom line is a fence is needed so is more security. i live in a border state and you come live here and you will understand why we need that fence.


i wouldn't go so far to say that mr. obama is a great leader... he hasn't even taken the oath yet. he certainly has the potential. i favor him in one major way... he always preached a strong middle class and stop send our jobs overseas.... i don't think i ever heard over the border though. but the key here is that overseas means middle class jobs, not fruit pickers. this will be the first president in many years who has made it a point to preach the concept of a strong middle class. mr. mccain wanted to give offshoerers tax cuts. he felt that was the way to get jobs here.....?????? how the hell do you figure. then i realized who one of his campaign advisers was.... does carly fiorina ring a bell to anyone? she is the ex ceo of hp, the largest outsourcer in the US at one time. she got canned from there and then went to florida for a while and like all snakes they come out for sunlight every once in awhile. listen to that idiot talk and you will question the validity of her education credentials. she does nothing but preach supporting companies who outsource and then tries to justify it like hope one is smart enough to know what she's up to.... she is a major JOKE. mccain sold his soul to the devil somewhere in his life. he is all about opening up the border and outsourcing. so you see with mccain, clinton and obama in the race to me there was only one candidate to vote for... obama. but to say he is a great leader, once again, let the facts tell the story. we will see. and i do hope you are right.

as for his father....
you are correct it si a different time but the way you stated that is a case of the end justifying the means. if a guy mugs somebody and steals $100 and then buys a homeless guy a meal.... sure the result of the robbery was a good thing, the guy got fed, but he still robbed someone else to get the money to buy the guy a meal. in fact this is exactly what we are talking about. in order for someone to be in this country on a student visa meant some american was not able to sit in that chair that mr. obama senior was sitting in. my answer is no it wasn't right... maybe the guy who wasn't able to sit in that chair would have had a son or daughter who would have been an even better president than all of them. i think that way of thinking is very commonly accepted these days. it's all ok as long as something good evolves. i don't believe in that.

i do hope with all my heart that this president will be what he said he was gonna be... this country needs to heal after our "kinder and gentler" president gets the hell out of our lives. i would say he is off to a good start though... that's a positive sign for all of us.

here is a little food for thought...

#1
carry the idea of making illegals, legal. say you make them legal. they go to work legally. well guess what all the sudden now employers/employees have to pay soc sec, medicare, unemployment ins, etc. they are back at square one. it will drive wages down somewhat but how far can you go when you don't make sh*t anyway...? so once again closed minded short range objectives that will only fail in the long run. employers just think it will still be ok to not pay these extras. think again. labor laws fall under a whole different branch of gov than immigration laws. they would be better off leaving them illegal and taking their chances or as one poster put it, just paying the fines. i often wonder just how smart these ceo really are. my opinion is not very, they just had rich daddys.

#2
another thing... how bout the hispanic americans who are pro illegal imigrant.... do they think they are going let all these people in the country legally (aprox 12 million of them) and they are just going to go and take everyone else's job and not take a hispanics job b/c they are hispanic...? that's ignorant. they will take any job they can get and it won't matter if it is a white, person's black person's or a hispanic person's... it just won't matter. they want the job. so essentially the hispanic Amerioans marching for these illegals are marching for someone to come over here and take their job... all because they are hispanic. that is a fact... if they were smart they would realize it is about nationality and NOT race. i can't tell you how many times i have made that comment to close minded idiots who want to turn it into race to try to shame you into not making an issue out of it. i am not afraid to make this an issue, they can call me what they want to.

but the key here is that overseas means middle class jobs, not fruit pickers. this will be the first president in many years who has made it a point to preach the concept of a strong middle class.

An American job is an American job. Whether it's a "fruit picker" or a computer programmer, the concept is the same. If you want to protect American jobs, then protect them in all directions. People rely on their livelihood through all different sorts of jobs.

Barack Obama Sr. certainly took away a US-born's seat. But immigration is a huge part of America's strategy and tradition, and it's worked pretty well. In any case, my point was to give an indication of Obama's potential policies, given his father was here on a student visa.

To discuss your specific points...

#1: No, I think I disagree here. First, city/state/fed govt will start getting taxes that are already supporting illegal immigrants. Second, it will increase hiring based on merit since if you're going to pay two people the same (through direct pay and taxes), why not hire a more qualified person? Now, I don't think a free path to citizenship is in order. I do believe in some sort of fines, payment of back taxes (and those with criminal records need to be carefully evaluated), and a several year wait before any talk of permanent residency starts. But something needs to be done to handle the illegal immigrants already here, and prevent future illegal immigration (this latter part is hardly discussed by any politician).

#2: I don't believe it's always about race. I think if millions of Canadians were illegally taking jobs, I would have the same concerns. But there certainly is a race issue as well since Spanish-speaking immigrants do not immediately assimilate (appearance, language, culture etc.) Some of this is attributable to the immigrants themselves.

Thanks for your thoughtful discussion...I appreciate it!

you are right, i did not mean to down play the under-class (i refuse to use the term lower class) jobs situation. i grew up poor and i completely understand the struggles they endure. so i definitely did not mean to say that those jobs are less important. i am saying that we have had some candidates openly talk about jobs going over the border but very rarely talk about them going "overseas". i will be honest, that is what clinched my vote for mr. obama. if not just that issue alone.

essentially the end result is what we are trying to change. you are saying punish the law breakers and i agree, i just want harsher punishment. these people break federal law by coming here. those people should be no longer allowed to ever come here again or risk jail (at tax payer expense of course). if people know they are never going to get another legal shot at it, they might reconsider.

unfortunately though, people make the issue of immigration about race. they do that b/c they are not smart enough to differentiate the two or they know that if they call you a racist that you will stop doing whatever you are doing that they don't like. i hate to break it to the world but not everything that happens between people of different races is racism. if a hispanic is in this country legally then that is not who i am talking about. its the ones who show up here and get all the freebies like they just won the lottery that i am talking about.

statistic....

i believe the year was 2003.... a major county hospital in my state delivered 22k babies in that year. 75% of them were born to illegal immigrants with no health insurance to the tune of $7,000,000 at tax payers expense and i am sure the trend continues b/c nothing has been done to discourage this. here's the kicker... just recently the city in which these taxpayers reside had to layoff over 300 public school teachers b/c of budget shortages.... so anyone tell me, do you think that illegal immigration doesn't take food out of your mouth, cost your kids a good quality education, etc, etc....?

these are facts, once again... let them speak for themselves....

It's not hard to punish companies who hire illegal immigrants. That is the single most effective way to reduce the problem. Impact the demand, and the supply will automatically get affected.

Addressing illegal immigration and the abuse of existing legal immigration systems will have a drastic impact (positive) on the American economy, and yet preserve America's historically successful immigration policy.

And thanks for the clarification around the jobs comment.

Stop with your assuming and hijacking threads, always going back to your agenda and putting words in people’s mouths. Your posts contradict yourself, time after time & that is apparent to many.

Since the government can not finance the policing of the current visa programs & there is so much abuse and people like Mlg8888 are being hurt, our government must protect the US Citizen, American Worker, NOW.


It is time to see American brothers and sisters with jobs (myself included) before bringing in more foreigners that are clearly not needed. It is clear that you are so against me and other U.S. born citizens earning a decent living.

...and you did. So I stand corrected.

However, I do find it contradictory for someone to support stopping all visa programs in order to protect American workers, and yet not say anything about the millions of people who are here illegally, and are taking a massive amount of jobs away, and are undercutting wages like crazy. IMO, a much larger negative impact than student/work visas.

I am against outsourcing/offshoring, and abuse of legal immigration means. But I am a supporter of visa programs (with increased oversight and commonsense regulation) because they are part of a largely successful American strategy and tradition.

Please let me know where I contradict myself. I will try to clarify if possible.

and probably a more realistic point. to completely shutoff every visa will never fly and is not possible in my view so the best solution is to manage them better. but then they will exploit the situation in another way. if i had my choice i say as soon as every American who wants to go to school is in school, then we can offer the vacancies to other NON TERRORIST countries. that doesn't mean Iran. right now we train people to kill us.... what a wonderful thought.

i also agree that the border issue is a MAJOR issue, we have so many i couldn't tell you which one is the most important...

btw... sorry for my typing... i am multi-tasking....

I do not doubt your pride of being a U.S. Citizen, your ability to do your job, and everything else you spoke about in your post and welcome to DU. BTW congrats on having a job in management.

Okay, so I am defensive, I openly admit it, but I hope you too can understand where I come from as well. I was born and raised in the U.S.A. I went to college, university and paid for my education, penny by penny, with a promise of a great career in IT.

I too knocked on doors for Obama, I too donated & educated my friends, my neighbors, strangers about Obama, I too proudly voted for Obama last week, I have exercised my right to vote since I was 18 years old. I too proudly fly the flag of the United States of America that was given to me after my Fathers Funeral, who served my country proudly. I too, give back to my community, on a weekly basis. I am a born U.S.A. citizen.

I am on unemployment, for the 4th time in 3 years, because of H1B Visas. Being forced to train H1B’s my job & co-workers jobs or be fired sooner then later. There are thousands of smart, qualified IT workers, born, educated, USA citizens out of jobs because of H1’B’s. It is not out of the lack of expertise, education, but because H1B’s are cheaper. Dare I say H1B’s are enslaved to their employers. I have seen first hand the fear of God in those H1B’s eyes when their employer hangs over their heads their visas. It is not a win-win situation, no matter how you look at it.

With regard to your concern of Freeper attitude; I do not see this at all, what I see are people struggling to find jobs, keep their jobs, and their frustration over training people to take over their jobs that do not have near the qualifications or years of experience they have. Frustrated, fearful, hungry Dem's, you bet.. Freepers hell no!

...And congrats on your citizenship. Now you can join the rest of us citizens in the struggle to keep your job. It does not matter how hard you work or how well you succeed in your daily skills. You are a commodity and are replaceable by the lowest cost counterpart. The reason you are standing on the defensive side of the scrimmage line is because you feel that these comments are being directed at you, personally. Now, try to imagine you losing your job tomorrow to a 23-year old H-1B applicant. You are told to leave your job on the spot, or keep getting paid for the next four weeks as you train your replacement as you search for another job every evening to ease the burden on your wife and two children at home. Now, imagine being turned away from job after job because you have too much experience, or are offered a job that pays 1/2 of what your previous job paid, and it is not enough to keep your family fed and your mortgage paid. Now, take a deep breath and see which side of the scrimmage line you are now on! Imagine your frustration of not being able to provide for your family... Here is the advice you are given: "Go take a community college course so that you can get another job," though you are already considered over qualified for most of the positions out there.

Come on back when you have walked a mile in those shoes... and we'll talk. It's not you that these complaints are directed, but the system.

Yes, becoming a citizen has been an amazing experience. Took me 13 years of patience and playing by the rules, but it was worth it.

If you did not read in my previous post, I too was laid off. What I did not mention was that it was mainly because support for our product was outsourced to India, and I did train many of those people myself. I then went back for further education and started my career all over again. So I have walked at least a half mile in those shoes.

I think while a lot of people see the bad side of the H-1B visa, they fail to look at the good side. Do you have any idea how much this country has benefited from the proper use of the H-1B visa system? So many successful businesses owe a lot to H-1B visa holders. Not to mention the research done in universities (by F-1 students, who are here because they know they can move into an H-1B eventually).

I agree that there is currently no shortage. But part of the policy of the US to keep its competitive edge is to continuously attract high-skilled talent from other countries. It's a strategic move and it has worked well. So even attacking the system really doesn't make that much sense to me. Attacking the abuse in the system? Absolutely, I totally agree with you.

I'm quite surprised that so many liberals are this concerned about the H-1B system, but are quite sympathetic to the millions of undocumented workers who have probably taken a hell of a lot more jobs than H-1B'ers have. For them, it's all about the search for a better life. Well, doesn't the same hold for us? And aren't we contributing much more? I think it's time to understand that H-1B'ers have broken no laws, most have paid full tuition to US institutions since financial aid is extremely limited, all have paid all their taxes, most have been competitively selected regardless of visa status, all have been restricted in their employment options, etc. But yet I doubt I would see similar reservations directed at undocumented workers. I do understand the plight of undocumented workers, I am just using the example to highlight the differing attitudes.

The H-1B system is good for America - it helps a lot of people all round. The abuse of the system (which has gone unchecked) isn't good for anyone. I can go into further details into the intricate details of the program if anyone wants. There's a lot more than meets the eye.

For U.S. corporations to hire cheap ass labor. Read Post #30 and get back to me on how great the system is for U.S. workers. Or better yet....ask "Azlady" how it feels being unemployed in the IT field, after training H-1B's to take her job on several occasions.

I'm seriously surprised at the lack of knowledge about the program. People around here are beginning to sound very xenophobic.

This is not a charity program. It benefits America. 65,000 people a year are given jobs under this program (it was temporarily increased during the tech boom years). This promise keeps bringing lots of talented workers to American shores. Most of them are students who study through four years of college like everyone else.

Yes, abuse is going on. And that needs to be addressed. The Tatas and the Wipros have torn the system apart.

FYI, I don't need to ask Azlady. I was also unemployed after training people to take my job. So I understand how she feels.

And to you, please let me know if you want to deport all undocumented workers right now. They surely take more jobs than H-1Bers and are a burden on our systems. I understand the need for them to be here, and the reasons America should work to accommodate them. I'm sure many here share my sentiments. But many of these same people are perhaps calling for the H-1B program to be canned. Strange.

For God's sakes, we elected a black President. Don't play the race card.

"Talented workers?" Yeah, right. :eyes:

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

One of the main arguments touted by groups interested in seeing an increase in the cap on H-1B temporary worker visas is that those who wish to work here on these visas are some of the world's best recruits, and their addition to the work force would foster U.S. innovation and global competitiveness.

Opponents to the program argue that H-1B visas do none of the above, but are instead used by large, greedy tech companies to undercut the wages of U.S. workers, effectively pushing them out of jobs. Opponents cite fines levied against system abusers as evidence.

In an article published this month by the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank favoring fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted, Norman Matloff, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who has been a longtime critic of the H-1B program, took a look at the median salaries of H-1B visa workers in the U.S. and found that although these workers weren't being underpaid, the median salary for a tech worker on an H-1B is simply the prevailing wage for their job and no more.

From there, Matloff drew the conclusion that if these workers were truly the best and brightest and would be able to foster U.S. innovation, they'd be able to command salaries higher than the prevailing wage.

"Most foreign tech workers, particularly those from Asia, are in fact of only average talent. Moreover, they are hired for low-level jobs of limited responsibility, not positions that generate innovation. This is true both overall and in the key tech occupations, and most importantly, in the firms most stridently demanding that Congress admit more foreign workers," Matloff writes.

More: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html

yep... Micro$oft, Google, Motorola, Tata, Wipro... the same companies that claim that there is a shortage of workers. It's all about bottom line and profits, plain and simple. If Microsoft wants to offshore outsource the development of their next operating system to China and India, they should not expect US law enforcement to waste time on intellectual property losses... More taxpayer dollars are then available for the small startup company that hires locally and supports the tax base here.

Your first post was today and you think that capitalism is self-governing and not in need of regulation... you sure you are on the right board?

"Your first post was today and you think that capitalism is self-governing and not in need of regulation"

When did I say this?

I've been highlighting the abuse of the system in every post, and the need for the system to be fixed.

You keep touting that the program should NOT be stopped, but should be corrected. In order to do that, you need to rewrite the guidelines... therefore, create an H-1C program that has all the necessary loopholes closed, establishes strict penalties for misrepresentation on both the corporate side and the applicant side. You cannot amend the current because it is too broken. A new program needs to be created to replace this one.

I've been highlighting the flaws in this system too! You cannot expect amendments to the current guidelines can possibly fix it. It needs a complete rewrite.

Yes, but even enforcing current laws without a rewrite would help a lot.

As a first step, I wish Feds would target the abuse of the prevailing wage. As you mentioned, companies continuously modify their job descriptions to target lower-wage H-1Bers. And that's a violation of existing law.

I know you are aware of this, but just for the sake of others let me explain something. Body shoppers hire H-1Bers and pay them only when they are consulted out. When their employees are "on the bench" they are paid nothing! This is a straight and gross violation of existing law. Don't get me started on body shoppers - I could go on forever!

Now, I do agree a rewrite maybe necessary (to include increased penalties for violations, priority to US-based students, simplified process for those who play by the book, adjustments of quotas depending on prevailing unemployment rates, etc). But since that could take a while, enforcing current laws would be a good first step. It would discourage employers from abusing the system.

Maybe the abuse has gone so far that enforcement is impractical and ineffective. That's definitely subjective. But I think action needs to be taken asap, and violations of existing law need to be first priority.

:thumbsup:

We have constructed an economy based on the idea that we can let American wages shrink and extend them credit. Well, that is not working too well.

The H1-B program was inspired by the desire of corporations to constrain wage growth of highly skilled workers. They got their way. It worked.

So there is a serious disincentive in America to achieve through education. The cost/benefit analysis is just not reasonable. It simply costs too much to get an engineering degree here, for example, when compared to one's likely income.

Now, this might be considered jingoistic of me, but I regard that as an untenable situation in a nation so dependent upon technology for its prosperity and defense. I have no problem with immigration as such ... but I do think that we should structure things so that immigration does not financially support the marginalization of American citizens.

I remember a good friend of mine ... a completely superior systems developer ... who went without work for 18 months. I knew others who were also quite good in similar straits. During this time, Bill Gates was demanding expansion of the H1-B quota on the basis that there were insufficient numbers of technically skilled Americans to meet demand. Not true. He just wanted to keep those wages down. After all, if wages go up, those executive types might have to go without a $3.00/minute massage or something.

Trav

I find it to be a disgrace to see Gates in front of Congress begging for more H-1B's while there are so many U.S. citizens that are out of work. Gates is always spewing his "lack of skilled worker myth" and idiots believe him. I know of many bright developers that can't find a job in the field paying a living wage and are now working several jobs at Home Depot and the like. Pathetic.

"The H1-B program was inspired by the desire of corporations to constrain wage growth of highly skilled workers."

This statement is incorrect. The program has been around since the 1950s. It was designed to address skill shortages, and then moved into a strategic program to generally attract students/workers from around the world, with no intention of constraining wage growth. However, the recent abuse of the system has had seriously negative effects, and this abuse has been driven by greedy corporations.

Without the H-1B program, almost all foreign students in the US would have no path to settling down in America. They would study, and then get on the next flight out - no other option. This may not seem like a bad thing to a lot of people, but I can tell you it's not what America is about.

If there were no H-1B program, I would likely have gone to Canada or Australia, or (somewhat unlikely) stayed in my home country, to study and work. This would be no big loss to America in just my case, but when you multiply it by the hundreds of thousands of minds and ideas that would not have hit America's shores, I think it would be a net disadvantage to America.

The H-1B is no charity program. It's been a (mostly) successful strategy employed by America. Europe has recently proposed a similar system ("blue card"). Not because of any major shortage of workers, but because they want to attract talent/skills away from America to Europe.

It's been a successful strategy employed by Corporate America. $$$$

Absolutely agreed that corporate America has lopsidedly benefited from the recent use and abuse of the system.

But over the course of the many decades that the program has been in place, America overall has benefited.

"Many decades the program has been in place"....also referring to the H-1B program beginning in the 50's......can you provide a link for that?

Two decades ago when H-1B was created it was intended to help U.S. companies find foreign workers with specialized skills for jobs not easily filled by Americans, but times have changed.

http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=71aab1b8-9d80-4674-98d6-3267dca04294

The H-1 visa has been around since the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. It has been modified since then in many ways, but allowing foreign workers to come here legally was put into law through that act. I believe the original H-1ers were sheep rearers or something like that.

H-1B came into existence in the 1990s in order to split it between nurses (H-1A) and others (H-1B).

Here's an explanation:

http://www.visaportal.com/page.asp?page_id=113

Here's an article that discusses the changes in the program:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/09/21/MN49570.DTL

I already knew that the "H-1B" came into existence approximately 2 decades ago.

and clarification of the history.

Understand I am not suggesting abolition of the H1-B visa program. I am suggesting that the program's limits have been adjusted in a fashion that benefits corporations and executives at the expense of the American worker with consequences to the nation as a whole. We need to attach priority to developing and maintaining the talents of our own citizens. I object to the premise that we have to do this because American students and workers are deficient, and I have had senior level management types justify it to me in those terms.

The executive class wants to exploit currency quirks and a global population to minimize their costs of production while maximizing their personal gain. They don't want to pay taxes or invest otherwise invest in American society. The American citizen and culture suffers thereby ... but let their business interests suddenly be threatened by aggression overseas and it suddenly becomes the patriotic duty of same citizens to offer up their children's blood to defend their quarterly bonuses. Pardon me if I object!

None of this is the fault of the guy who comes in on an H1-B visa. He or she is just seizing an opportunity ... and how can I not love that?

So please don't take what I said personally. :)

Trav

Trav

All,

Just a word of thanks for engaging in a thoughtful discussion. This was my first posting and it turned out to be lots of fun. I apologize for the initial abrasive comments I made. I was certainly out of line.

One of the reasons for America's greatness is its ability to attract those who seek a better life to its shores. No one can deny that most immigration comes at a cost to some resident Americans (in terms of livelihood, basic services, etc). But please do not disregard the intellectualism, diversity, talent, and contribution that immigrants have brought to America.

The H-1B visa is just one component of the overall immigration picture. It is hard to target the H-1B system, but not attack other forms of legal (and illegal) immigration. And a pattern of attacking immigration in general would be harmful for America and would go against its core principles.

Abuse of the H-1B system is rampant and there has been no oversight (the general theme of the last 8 years). It is unfortunate, but totally understandable, that the abuse has given such a negative impression of the system - a system that I believe is important for America to remain accommodating and competitive. It's time to address the abuses. This discussion has convinced me to reach out to my Congressman to highlight the abuses and recommend corrections.

I hope that I have conveyed a perspective that you may not hear too often, and I hope I have shed some light on a complex issue. I definitely have learned a lot from all of you and I really appreciate your frankness and insight. I see a lot of common ground and hopefully that will serve as a foundation to build on.

I look forward to continuing to post on DU.

Thanks!

Might I ask, why are you speaking to and thanking yourself?

...thought that was clear in the message. No?

:thumbsup:

I expected better from DU, I honestly did.

So, in the same vein, should we deport all undocumented workers right now? They are taking jobs away, they have broken several laws, most of them don't pay taxes, and they cause significant burden on our muncipalities and education/healthcare systems. So, what's the call? Round them up and throw 'em out?

Never have I felt so unwelcome as an American. After all, I am a beneficiary of the H-1B program. Seems like there's a lot of hatred toward the program and its beneficiaries. If you have the contacts, see if you can strip my citizenship away and have me deported. That might make you happier.

I sympathize with anyone losing their job. I have lost my job in similar fashion and I know many friends who have as well. But it is unfair to blame a system that America has benefited from so much. As I've said in previous posts - target the abuse, not the system.

America/nor her citizens have benefited from the H-1B program, but rather U.S. Corporations and greedy ass CEO's have.

What's with all the "freeperish" talk after 2 posts? Sounds like you're on the wrong forum.

No, trust me, I'm on the right forum. I am no troll. Just to clarify that! If you want pics of the Obama magnet on my car, or Obama/Biden sign in my window, or the Obama bobblehead on my TV stand, or my Yes We Can t-shirt, let me know! ;) Perhaps I'm a little more centrist than most people around here, but I do sit firmly left of center.

Agreed, I'm probably out of line with the freeperish talk. I apologize for that. As a newbie I should break myself in a bit better. I will learn! Sorry!!!

I am an American citizen because of the H-1B program. So I have benefited. I was paid the exact same amount as my colleagues - so there was no going cheap on me. I was competitively hired (i.e. no one looked at my visa status before hiring me). I have paid every cent of tax owed. I teach volunteer English classes at a local library. I collected food for Katrina victims. I have mentioned my involvement in the election process in a previous post. Most H-1Bers are like me.

There is rampant abuse going on. I am the first to accept that because it affects those following the H-1B process legitimately. That's where the concern should be targeted. Please don't trash the system. Tata, Wipros, and Infosys (plus American companies like MS and IBM) have surely fiddled around and brought a bad name to the system.

I hope to convey the difference between the system and the abuse. So far I am failing.

U.S. Corporations "should" seek out U.S. workers prior to hiring H-1B's, bottom line.

I've worked in my field for 15+ years and have rarely met an H-1B that I didn't have to "hand-hold" on a project, so no....I disagree that "most H-1Bers are like you."

I assume you're for lifting that cap on H-1B's? That would be right in line with what John McCain wanted.

Absolutely not! No lifting the cap! 65k is enough! Maybe even reduce it in these times. I was against the raising to 105k in the boom times (I think that's what the number was).

I graduated with about 20 people who eventually became H-1Bers. All of them were competitively hired like me and have had very similar careers as myself. Most of them are citizens now who have paid taxes and contributed to society.

OTOH, there are a lot of H-1Bers who are the type you are talking about. That was never the intent of the H-1B, and it has been abused to this level.

I also think H-1B priority should be given to foreign students who have studied in the US. If the cap is filled by them, then it should be limited to them only.

Is calling for closing existing loopholes for companies shipping jobs overseas, as well as only calling on H-1B's "if" there are no Americans qualified to take the job(s). Now, we all know that there are many unemployed U.S. IT workers.

Your thoughts?

With the U.S. economy in turmoil....end the H-1B program for now and let's get the U.S. IT citizens that are qualified, yet jobless, back to work.

...I wouldn't necessarily disagree.

I would suggest some amendments perhaps. e.g. reducing the caps and limiting the award of H-1Bs to those who graduate from US educational institutions, a schedule on resuming back to normal levels, etc. It will definitely hurt a lot of people in search of the American dream (something that makes America so great) but maybe lots of resident Americans need to find their dream first! ;)

The danger I see with any such proposals is more outsourcing. Even with the loophole closed, I think a lot of companies will see it better for their bottom line to just go overseas. Not that it's much different today!

(BTW, H-1Bs are not limited to IT, though of course they have been primarily used for IT jobs in the recent past.)

We agree on ONE thing: "maybe lots of resident Americans need to find their dream first!"

This is interesting. Obama seems to hit many sides of the argument. This interview was in Nov 2007, well before the recent economic collapse. I assume he would (justifiably) no longer support an increase in the H-1B cap:

http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/26/qa-with-senator-barack-obama-on-key-technology-issues/


"I support comprehensive immigration reform that includes improvement in our visa programs, including our legal permanent resident visa programs and temporary programs including the H-1B program, to attract some of the world’s most talented people to America. We should allow immigrants who earn their degrees in the U.S. to stay, work, and become Americans over time." - Obama.

His mantra has changed.

Maybe he got the memo:


Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest


http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_workers/study_says_h1bs_arent_the_best_or_brightest.html

I certainly don't want an increase in the H-1B cap! Nothing in the prevailing economic conditions can justify it.

But, I feel reassured that Obama understands the need for America to continue to attract students and workers to American shores, subject to common sense regulation. As the son of an immigrant himself, I think he brings an interesting and refreshing perspective to the administration and national psyche.

This country, yours now too is in a state of economic crisis, H1b has destroyed the fabric of our country. Can the program, no more work visa's until our economy is back on solid ground. A new program can be put into place once we have our country back, period.
Thank you,
Azlady

Then what about stopping all family visas, student visas, refugee visas, diversity visas, etc? All of these will also take away opportunities from resident Americans.

Also, what about undocumented workers? Remember, they are here illegally and taking jobs away from Americans. I would say that's a tad worse than legal residents.

Only one person on this board has favored rounding up and deporting undocumented workers. No one has supported stopping all visas.

To target only the H-1B program for canning seems a little strange when it's just one piece of the puzzle.

This discussion is related to H-1B fraud, not undocumented workers.

To suggest trashing and canning the H-1B program because the program takes away American jobs brings general immigration into the equation. If one is truly concerned about American jobs, then H-1B is just one part of the puzzle.

I have few takers to answer my questions on their own support of different immigration programs that have the same (or greater) effects on the American job market.

The ignore feature is the only way to stop having to repeat yourself. :)

Noted and will try to follow!

Thought you were addressing me there for a second!

Thanks sweetie. :)

Yes.

...you support rounding up all undocumented workers and deporting them?

Really?

Wow.

for the neighbors to rummage through the stuff in your locked garage? No, you call the police and they get arrested for trespassing. I'm not for giving anyone a free-pass to break the law.

OK, that's fair. If you have this view, then I can start understanding your viewpoints about the H-1B program (although remember that most H-1Bers play by all the rules in the book and contribute to society as well).

Still though, I appreciate your honesty. This helps me understand better. It would be harder for me to accept the views of someone who sympathizes with undocumented workers, but is highly critical of the H-1B program.

Thanks for the response.

(For the record, I don't support any rounding up or mass deportation of undocumented workers. Certainly fines and backtaxes are in order, plus criminals need to go. But I want to avoid turning this into a discussion about undocumented workers.)

I never made the claim that H-1B applicants are the same as a boarder jumper. I said the H-1B program sucks, is mismanaged and in need of total reform. I don't have a problem with a foreigner that follows the rules and becomes a citizen. I do have a real problem with companies that break the rules for capital gain and then cry to congress that there isn't enough cheap labor to bring over and exploit the median wage in order to increase profits. If an H-1B makes false statements on the application.. yep.. all for deporting them too... no fines... just fuckin' give them the boot.

I think some progress is being made here! ;)

The H-1B program has been abused and needs serious fixing up. I think Durbin and Grassley are taking the first steps, and that's great.

But what I want to convey to is that a lot of H-1Bers are students who go through college/univ/PhD, get hired competitively, are paid the same amount as their colleagues, pay taxes, and work their way to citizenship. This used to comprise the vast majority of H-1Bers (at least when I graduated in the late 90s).

Things are quite different now. Direct hiring from other countries is prevalent. And there's a lot of body shopping going on (which is really an unacceptable abuse...I can give you details if you want).

H-1B's are paid the same amount as their colleagues?

Not anywhere I've worked. They're hired in at less and drive down wages. I've taken over 7 pay cuts in the past 8 years.

Everyone who gets hired out of a US college gets paid the same as their colleagues. Here's how the hiring process works:

- Companies state beforehand whether they hire H-1Bs or not
- If they do, I submit my resume (with no indication that I am a visa student, unless asked)
- Companies hire the most qualified people regardless of visa status
- Companies sponsor the foreign student/workers for an H-1B

This is how most people I know got hired. This is the standard process when you are hired out of a US college.

Now, the body shopping and direct hiring is different. There's a hell of a lot of abuse going on in that area. Some of the practices employed by Tata, Wipro, etc. are downright sleazy.

Which comes back to my point - there's the H-1B system, and there's the abuse of the system. I think the system is good, I think the abuse is bad.

Trust me, I'm aware. It drives down my wages, as well.

Now, companies are quite creative in adjusting the prevailing wage. This is a total abuse, and something the Feds haven't cared about (see ChromeFoundry's post). This happens more for direct hires from foreign countries and body shopping.

By abusing the system, a lot of wages are affected, including yours. That's unacceptable.

That is why I have the views that I do. I have been in this field for 20 years. I really don't need a lecture on what is obvious to me. I have been forced (several times) by my ex-employer to write up employment requirements so that they would be able to hire H-1Bs over citizens. I even reported them to the Feds and no one even bothered to look into it.

Thanks for sharing that example. And the abuse is rampant. The Feds have ignored so much in the last few years, they don't care a bit. It's sad, really is. Because it puts the entire program in a bad light, which I think is unwarranted.

It's time to highlight the abuse. And maybe it's up to us who followed the book to take a stand. I actually am now thinking of talking to my Congressman to share my views about the abuse, and provide suggestions on how to curtail the abuse.

But I believe that American liberal philosophy is a little more accommodating than rounding up and deporting all undocumented workers. At least that's the way I think (no free pass, but eventual path to citizenship after fines, backtaxes, etc).

My point is that if H-1Bers are a menace, then so are undocumented workers (by a far greater degree, and illegally).

You're the one that continues to bring up undocumented workers. I only asked that question to give you a hint. :)

The reason I bring up undocumented workers is to draw a parallel. IMO at least, undocumented workers present a far greater negative impact on American jobs, livelihood, infrastructure, and wages than H-1Bers do.

If everyone who is against the H-1B program also supports the removal of undocumented workers, then I can understand their viewpoints better.

Pete and Repeat were sitting on a fence, Pete fell off and who was left?

Are you following me?

;)

Trying my best here, but I think that a lot of people who are against H-1B may need to understand it better in the context of immigration in general.

Uh, maybe you should observe a little more and attack a little less. With only four posts under your belt, you may not understand who Democrats are and what they believe. There's nothing freeperish about standing up for American workers agsinst their corporate overlords.

Shitcanning the program would not involve deporting any citizens. So I don't know where you get your sense of victimhood from - certainly not from my post.

"Target the abuse, not the system"? The system IS an abuse. With the number of tech Americans looking for work, the HI-B system does nothing for Americans in general except put them out of work. And who the FUCK are you to tell me what to target, anyhow?


"But it is unfair to blame a system that America has benefited from so much." American corporate execs have benefited handsomely; other Americans, not so much.

And will do so again! I'm sorry about the freeperish comments. They were totally uncalled for!

I wholeheartedly agree.

:toast:

Standing up for American workers - absolutely! That is one reason why the Democrats have won handsomely.

But how is the system an abuse? It targets a lot of high-skilled workers from all over the world. If the program was stopped, it would mean any foreign college student in the US would NOT get a job. So they will have to leave. Instead of that, they will choose to study elsewhere.

Now this may not mean a lot to you right now. But think of all the important research that is done in graduate schools in this country - America will lose a huge edge. That's just one of the benefits.

I am just trying to explain things and shed light on a very misunderstood area. You are under no obligation to accept it. You also don't really need to use the F-word, but that's your right to do so.

But please also let me know what you think about undocumented workers. Would you want to deport them? They broke the law, they don't pay taxes, and they take jobs. And in the millions, much much more than H-1Bers. So, what should we do?

jobs are being shipped overseas in droves... High School students with a 4.0 GPAs and perfect Math scores on the SAT are not getting scholarships. H-1B are being imported to drive down the current wage. America has a lot to lose by shitcanning the H-1B program? And you want me to care if a foreign worker can get a job here when there are not enough to handle the highest jobless rate in two decades? I don't think so. They would be better off staying overseas where the jobs are going.

...it's a tough sell especially in these times.

Like millions and millions of others, I have always seen America as a land of promise, where people can legally come, study, work, and achieve the American dream. So with that in mind, "shitcanning" (excuse my language) the H-1B program is not something I would want to happen. It goes against so much of what America stands for. I think (and hope) that many born and bred Americans would be able to relate to this viewpoint.

Adjustments to the H-1B program, and a serious crackdown on abuse - yes, that's what's needed. Abandoning the program? No, that's not a good idea.

At levels comparable to the Great Depression, it's time to "shitcan" the program and take care of Americans, first. We shouldn't have to see our fellow citizens sleeping on the steps of courthouses, in parks or under bridges.

I'm sure that if the situation were reversed in another country.....the citizens would be up in arms and take to the streets!

But then shouldn't we end immigration altogether temporarily? Students, workers, families, etc? Every additional person arriving displaces opportunities and services slated for resident Americans.

It's a little unfair to single out H-1s, and not address other forms of legal and illegal immigration.

If you agree that we need to "shitcan" all forms of immigration, it would make it easier for me to understand where you are coming from (it would also be antithetical to America's basic principles, but perhaps the situation demands such extremities).

When unemployment in the U.S. is.....

At levels comparable to the Great Depression, it's time to "shitcan" the program and take care of Americans, first. We shouldn't have to see our fellow citizens sleeping on the steps of courthouses, in parks or under bridges.

I'm sure that if the situation were reversed in another country.....the citizens would be up in arms and take to the streets!

What part of that statement do you not understand? You keep repeating yourself....

On edit to add: You continue to bring up immigration. Please stay on topic....if needed, please re-read the OP.

But my question to you and others is: would you support stopping all forms of immigration, or just target the H-1B system?

(I know this is an H-1B topic, but H-1B is necessarily about immigration in general. I am perhaps the only one giving a contrary pov to the general sentiment, and I believe that I have to bring up immigration in general to shed some light).

This program has outlived its usefulness.

I've read you had to train several H-1B's to take your positions. I wish you the best of luck.

I'm trying so hard. Everything must be done to end outsourcing and the H1B Visa program. It is to the point anymore when I see an IT job listing, I just laugh, I know it is bull, they just want to make it look like they advertised for the job, then throw all those resumes away...

At many companies that I've worked, that is exactly what happens. An ad is put into the paper, we get hundreds upon hundreds of resumes and they all get thrown out.....just so the company can say that they "tried" to hire a U.S. worker.....and they then keep the H-1B. Bottom line is hiring workers on the cheap...thus fattening the CEO's pockets.

I hope you find something soon.

You do NOT know how I feel. Not even close, to afraid to ask I guess, huh! H1B needs to COMPLETELY go away. You call me racist, you call me a right wingnut, that smells like a troll to me. You know what I want.... I want my damn job back, I want the thousands of americans jobs back. I worked proudly 12-15 hours a day, some times 7 days a week. I loved my work, I was not some lazy ass employee. I am sick and tired of hearing about lazy americans.

I think they call it projection when what one is doing and puts it on another person, that is what you are doing here, right now, calling us right wingnuts, freepers, racists.

Good night
AzLady

I will apologize once again for the freeperish/right wingnut comments. I believe this is my third apology, and I will make more if need be. I was out of line. I don't know if I accused anyone of being racist, but perhaps my "xenophobic" comment was interpreted that way so I apologize.

I may not know how you feel in your situation. But I did lose my job too. I was not, and am not, a lazy employee. I do not believe in lazy Americans. That's a pathetic excuse used by people to abuse the system.

I also wanted my job back when I lost it. I was very fortunate I was able to work my way through MBA school and start my career anew. It was a very hard time, but I was relentless in my pursuit of the American dream. I know not everyone has the opportunities I did when I was laid off, but my faith in America is what got me through. Agreed that that faith is tougher to have these days, but I am optimistic about the future.

The H-1 program has been there since the 1950s. For decades it has worked very well. In the last 10 years, lots of abuse has been going on. The H-1B system allows foreigners like me to come to these shores and achieve the American dream. Isn't that one of the greatest things about America? Without the H-1B program, this dream is seriously impacted.

The current execution of the H-1B is not in line with the intentions. My whole point is that the abuse is what needs to be fixed. Getting rid of the H-1B program is not the way to go, at least IMO. I know people disagree, and that's fine. I'm just trying to give another side of the whole issue which I hope people will take into consideration.

Thanks for your comments.

This program, like so many others in our country Sledgehammer has become outdated & being abused, as you said. What so many do not understand... the American people are losing their American Dream, fast. It is time to close the program and allow american workers to take their country back, that includes you now. Our jobs have been sent off shore, and taken over by foreign workers.

You said, "Without the H-1B program, this dream is seriously impacted"...For H-1B's, yes. For me being unemployed....it would be a wealth of opportunities and I wouldn't be facing a possible foreclosure on my home. I had enough savings for a year, had the mortgage paid for 6 months ahead, I did everything "right" and still am in the position of the loss of my simple, humble home, no I am not in an arm, but a fixed rate, low mortgage payment, low over head, but my American Dream has been stolen from me by corporate greed that is taking advantage of not only the H1B program, but those foreign workers almost becoming slaves for their "American Dream". It is awful.

It is time to suspend this program, allow the american worker to recover, during that time of recovery a more strict, newer program can be written, that protects Americas worker/jobs and the Foreign worker wanting to live the American Dream...

PS I would also love to hear what you think the American Dream means...

Thanks
AzLady

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think it's outlived its usefulness. I think it's been abused without any oversight (what else is new in Dubya's world of incompetence). I think allowing foreign students a shot at establishing themselves is very important.

In these tough times it may seem a tough pill to swallow. But when America compromises its principles (in this case, its openness) to accommodate a specific situation, I'm not sure who wins in the end. It's certainly debatable, and I do think adjustments need to be made, but abandoning the program altogether is not a good idea.

The American dream is obviously vague and varies from person to person. For me though, it means coming to American legally, playing by the rules, studying/working hard, facing adversity with courage, working diligently, paying taxes, assimilating into American culture while still maintaining your roots, contributing positively to society, and, finally, taking Oath of Citizenship with pride in what you have accomplished.

I'm not sure whether the American dream involves owning a home, a car, etc. The material aspect is not as important as the social and personal journey.

Oh, and one more thing, you have to join a fantasy football league to truly live the American dream! ;) I never knew it would so addicting! Three years and going strong.

"I think allowing foreign students a shot at establishing themselves is very important."

Interesting....I think that allowing U.S. born citizens a shot at establishing themselves in their own country MORE important.

When you have unemployment as high as it is in the U.S., it's time for CHANGE.

And I sincerely hope you find a job soon. Being jobless is not a good place to be, and I really hope the best for you. I'm not much of a praying man, but I hope my good wishes will in some measure help.

1) Advertise all open positions for six months

AND

2) Submit copies of the applications of all American applicants who allegedly "don't qualify." If any American applicant even comes close to qualifying (i.e. could be brought up to speed with a brief training period), then the visa application is denied.

My company practices #1 and gets hundreds and hundreds of resumes, then throws them in the trash......so they can say they tried to find a U.S. worker....and they keep their H-1B's.

"Company X is claiming that there are no qualified American applicants for (whatever the job is). If you answered their advertisement, please send us a copy of your resume."

Or members of the HR department who are quitting anyway need to whistle blow to the local press.

This should be treated as seriously as civil rights violations.

People are too afraid to be whistle blowers for fear of retaliation of never working again. Word travels fast.

paying American wages to American workers.

;(

:sarcasm:

Interfering with the "sacred markets" is A-ok whenever it's benefiting corporations against labor.

Btw, wealthy foreign students are wanted because of future alumni endowments. It isn't about how much tuition is paid when they're students, but afterward. Admissions officers are thinking ahead.

One example... NYU DEFINITELY discourages and harasses scholarship students. The clearest and simplest proof of that - there was only one Veterans' Scholarship processor on campus when my daughter went there in 2002. One. And that one had an incredibly obnoxious and obstructionist attitude, at that. One processor, for thousands of VA-eligible students.

They have lots of ridiculous practices, all designed to discourage scholarship students and prevent them from continuing, once there. It was clear to see because my niece, who was a cash student, happened to be admitted at the same time as my daughter, and the difference between how each was treated was night and day, about every issue.

My daughter had enough scholarships to cover all of her costs, but because of NYU's stalling on approving her schedule from June until a week before classes in September, the scholarship funding was gone (as well as all of the classes she needed) and I was stuck with a parents' loan for no reason. (Her adviser was on vacation in Europe all summer, and they refused to assign another one. 30K difference for me.) Similar gambits were pulled semester after semester for 2 years. NYU SUCKS!!! Their hierarchy is staffed by elitist overpaid assholes. Sorry to use that word, but they are.

The clear message: the wealthy from anywhere are all wanted, but unwealthy Americans are definitely discouraged no matter how gifted.

They aren't honest enough to reject these students' applications in the first place, because that would SHOW how they are. These students are outright USED and ABUSED by these schools, and put through bureaucratic and financial hell just to "nice up" their image and hide the fact that they are discriminating on a class basis. They're doing EXACTLY THAT. They know it's illegal, and they're using these kids to avoid prosecution for it.