Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The official position of the United States re: The question of the US being a Christian Nation

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 11:58 AM
Original message
The official position of the United States re: The question of the US being a Christian Nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli




The Treaty of Tripoli usually refers to the first treaty concluded between the United States of America and Tripoli, otherwise known in English as the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary. The treaty was signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796 and at Algiers (for a third-party witness) on January 3, 1797, finally receiving ratification from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797 and signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. But.....But....But.......
the Constitution says so...I know because rush and glenn tell me so
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
av8rdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You just made me think of this Onion article
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. That, Sir, Was Some Of the Paper's Very Best Work...
'"Our very way of life is under siege," said Mortensen, whose understanding of the Constitution derives not from a close reading of the document but from talk-show pundits, books by television personalities, and the limitless expanse of his own colorful imagination. "It's time for true Americans to stand up and protect the values that make us who we are."'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. And before the usual fundy-site cut and paste naysayers start...
Edited on Thu May-20-10 12:49 PM by dmallind
1)It doesn't matter diddly what the Arabic version says. Pretty damned sure it was the English version read to and ratified by the Senate and signed by one of the founding fathers, who can speak with much mopre authority than either you or or I on what the country was founded to be.

2) It doesn't matter how trustworthy or intelligent the negotiator was - the final product contains the clause and stands as the law of the land.

3) It doesn't matter why we wanted a treaty with the Barbary states, or how able the signatories were to provide what they committed to. The treaty may very well have been a waste of time, but so are many laws and treaties that remain in force and speak tothe intent of the Congress which passed them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. The Founding Fathers speak to us from the past.
The record is quite clear on the subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. As long as the river runs and the grass grows.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. It contains one lie.
"Why not another?" would be a better response.

Of course, the problem is that the US itself wasn't founded on the Xian religion. I don't know of hardly anybody that claims that. Those that do, when pressed, will explain that it wasn't founded on the Xian religion but founded on "principles" derived from or compatible with Islam. Those better informed would simply chuckle.

Then again, it doesn't mean what you probably want it to mean, either, since it says nothing about states' religions or the American population or the laws. Just the proximal basis of the federal government. That's the problem with this kind of historical flotsam and jetsam, it's easily excerpted from context and made to speak with other voices. That all context is to be explicitly and joyously excluded from the discussion makes it even more flexible. Protean, even.

It doesn't matter what the Arabic version says. Or anything about the negotiator. However, it does matter why we wanted the treaty with the Barbary States--a Muslim nation. The lie is cute and by decontextualizing the blip you hide the lie. This treaty, this passage, preserves the bey's face, so to speak, by saying it wasn't him or his nation that was humiliated when, in fact, it was precisely him and his nation. In so doing, their jihad was thwarted, crushed, and so Islam was shamed and shown to be less. Nominally still part of the caliphate, this could be very bad for the pasha. This is a very important point. Utterly false, of course, but so much of this kind of blather is.

However, it probably saved lives, since it meant that the Xians held could be released. It didn't provide a pretext for killing the Xian slaves that the Muslims had kept. Sixty years later a setback for Muslims in a war perceived as overtly religious led to pogroms against Xians. Communalism--something that many think is such a great idea this days--really sucks. Still, it was patently true that we didn't attack them for religious reasons--we were tired of a group of pirates taking ships, stealing the property, demanding ransom lest they make the crew and passengers into slaves. It doesn't matter that their internal dialog called it jihad and the blood of Americans was permitted.

However, it makes no sense to call this the "law of the land." It's rather like having a law saying that pi = 3.000. You can jump up and down and say it's so, but since it's not anything that's enforceable, it's not an instruction, it's not really a law. It's more a statement of (non-)fact. Note that a pretext arising from religious opinions did rather produce an interruption of the harmony between the two nations in short order.

The facile reply would be that given the Congress approved two falsehoods in that one paragraph, what's to keep the third from being a falsehood. As I said, this would be facile.

Actually, a very nice rebuttal would simply be that to speak of "a" Xian religion in 1797 would provoke cries of derision. Each sect would know what was entailed, being familiar with their own histories; there'd be some general idea of what "a Xian religion" would be; but to speak of "the" Xian religion is rather like speaking of "the" Christian doctrine in 2010. My church was Xian. It kept Passover and a Saturday Sabbath, was non-Trinitarian and believed that Jesus, formerly known as Yahweh, was dead for 72 hours. Try reconciling that with Episcopalian Easter and Sunday, Trinitarian and Jesus was killed Friday afternoon and resurrected Sunday morning. Remember--there's only one Christian religion. Which one are you going to exclude?

For anything to be founded on "the" Christian religion, on the one hand, would be ludicrous. Esp. the federal government of the United States, lording it over, as it were, states with several different official "Christian religions."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benld74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. To the shores of Tripoli, we will fight our non christian founded country's battles,,,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. None of which helps unless more Americans start taking it seriously
The whole 'Christian Nation' thing is a lie.

Trouble is: too many believe the lie.

Their preachers told them to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Has anyone been over to FR lately?
I wonder if heads have begun to explode.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Since this isn't really new news, I'm not sure if it has caused any recent reactions there
In any case, my blood pressure can't handle a reconnaissance trip over to FR.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Musselmen - I love that one

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JeffersonChick Donating Member (338 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great website to refute this
If you're tired of hearing all this "Christian nation" nonsense, here's a good website for ammo:

Was The United States Founded As A Christian Nation?
http://bmccreations.com/one_nation/nation.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Did you read the replies to this?
The website could have stated about the laws of gravity, that what ever is dropped will fall, and yet someone would refute it by saying, when the Rapture comes, the laws of Gravity will not apply.

Idiots..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Heathen57 Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
14. There is no way this could be a Christian Nation.
There is no way the United States could have been formed as a Christian nation. The Constitution is almost the total opposite of the Christian religion.

The very concept of a nation led by elected persons, not by divine right, is the first clue. The first words of the Constitution are WE, THE PEOPLE. There is no godly intervention here, it is the rules made by men to govern men. Totally against the bible where only god makes the rules.

The biggest thorn into the balloon of a Christian nation is the first Amendment, mainly the separation of Church and State. This could never exist if the country was a Christian nation. Christianity, like it's brothers Islam and Israel (Jewish), only one god is allowed. All others are evil and its worshipers must be destroyed. Even differing sects of the religions are subject to destruction for not believing the right things. (Reformation and Counter Reformation. anyone?)

Another part of the Constitution that is unbiblical, is the Redress the Government with your grievances. The biblical god made the laws, you obeyed, or you were stoned to death. Here, you can protest the government, something that would never happen in a Christian Nation.

You won't find any of the 10 commandments in the Constitution either. That's because they conflict with the way that the framers of the Constitution envisioned the laws and government of this country. The don't steal, don't murder and so on came from many differing sources, most from the beginning of civilization, thousands of years before the Christian god was even dreamed up. You can't find "honor the Sabbath", anywhere in the founding documents.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu May 02nd 2024, 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC