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In U.S. politics, the independents have it

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 09:30 AM
Original message
In U.S. politics, the independents have it
Edited on Tue Jul-26-11 09:30 AM by bemildred
Forget President Obama, House Speaker John A. Boehner and the less-interesting-than-their-name-suggests "Gang of Six." When the history of the Great Debt Ceiling Debate of 2011 gets written, the main character will not be a Beltway negotiator, or even a politician.

The only reason Washington is even talking about proposals to slow the growth of government spending, instead of robotically jacking up the nation's credit line for the 11th time in a decade, is that a large, decentralized group of citizen activists has spent the last few years loudly telling politicians from both parties one consistent message: restrain your own power or face our wrath.

Whether you conceive of the "tea party" as a heroic tamer of bipartisan big government or a diabolical hydra threatening America's very future, its success in precipitating a national debate over fiscal policy should give hope — and a tactical blueprint — to anyone who feels marginalized by politics.

It is now easier than ever for alienated ideological blocs to foist their single issue onto the table over the objections of politicians who perpetuate the status quo. It's becoming more and more clear to tea party activists and their analogues on issues from education reform to drug legalization that success in politics is directly proportional to independence from the two major political parties.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-welchgillespie-indies-20110726,0,7982797.story
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. TeaBagger Party...independents?!? They. Are. The. Fringe. RIGHTwingers
who are backed by big money and Big Business, and given undue respect and airtime in our corrupted 4th Estate.

The L.A. Times has sure gone to the dogs, and if that article later dismisses the TeaBagger Party, the fact that they seemed to praise them in the first few paragraphs is a sign they're part of that corrupted 4th estate / GOP Publicists trying to keep marketing that fringe Brownshirts group of the Nazi-GOP Party.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. What a load of horseshit. It's the global banks that are pushing this, and not just in the US.
This piece embodies a "small picture" perspective that we're supposed to take as some sort of profound truth. In fact, it and the myth of the Holy Center of American politics (the Silent Majority, again) is an old, stinking carcass tied to a string that gets waved around like a talisman every generation when faith in manufactured consensus starts to slip.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I thought he was arguing that the two parties are in trouble.
Which is a point of view that I think has some merit. When the country needs action and good governance, and neither party seem able to do that, it seems quite reasonable to expect alternatives, good and bad, to flourish.

I quite agree about the Holy Center and Moral Majority and all that, but that is not what I thought he said, he seemed to me to be arguing that only motivated independent groups can really get anything done, the partys have to please too many masters to do very much. That is not a new argument either, I have read the same argument in Walter Karp, who is anything but an inside the beltway sort of guy.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It can be read either way. However, the Third Way isn't a viable alternative because it's just the
most blatantly corporatist wing of two conjoined corporate-controlled parties. Not an alternative, just the center-point of the problem.

That's the thing that I think needs to be emphasized. If we had two truly competing parties -- a progressive and a conservative party -- that would be okay, but what we have today is basically a siamese monster joined at the hip receiving their money and instructions fundamentally from the same global banks and multinational corporations.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yeah, but what we have now is "not viable" either.
So you gotta either accept national non-viability, or look for something new, which is actually what I think people voted for in 2008. (Well, I suppose you can argue that the present setup is viable, but then I must disagree, and only time will tell.)
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I would be the last person to argue that the present arrangement is viable.
Edited on Tue Jul-26-11 02:02 PM by leveymg
I think people voted -- some of them quite grudgingly, but in expectation that it was the sole realistic solution -- to transform the U.S. into a European-style Social Democracy with a real European-style safety net (including single-payer national health) and a tax structure to go along with it. Instead, what we got was continued government by Robert Paulson, Ben Brenanke, and Tim Geithner - by, for, and of Goldman-Sachs and the NY Federal Reserve and its member global banks.

Instead of becoming a modern social democracy, we are being "restructured" into an authoritarian state dominated by oligarchs in the familiar IMF shock therapy fashion as administered to Russia in the 1990s by another familiar face - Larry Summers.

I'm beginning to believe that Barack Obama has been their guy all along, and that we got suckered. I also predict that at the present trajectory we're about to soon go through some kind of social upheaval, and that this could become the greatest crisis since the end of the Civil War.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I mostly agree with that.
I am not as disappointed as some with Obama, because I didn't expect that much. He would not be where he is if he was who we want him to be. He is the first black President, and Constitutionally US Presidents are weak, they have to flog the Congress into action to get much done, so while I agree that he is failing to meet the current crisis well, and he ought to use the bully pulpit more, I will still support him without a qualm until I see something better that looks "viable", and chew on his ass when I disagree with him too.

I am somewhat worried that if things go badly enough with Obama, it will make it harder for women and non-white candidates in the future. I can see the campaign ads now.

But consider on the other hand the women candidates over amongst the Wingnut party who are being taken as credible without the least mention of their gender so far. Nothing about how they would be the first female President, etc. etc., it's now a perfectly natural thing. That seems good to me, in a way.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Two words about that: "Eva Peron"
Edited on Tue Jul-26-11 02:51 PM by leveymg
Another two: Margaret Thatcher. Finally: Colin Powell. While I heartily embrace the fracturing of the Glass Ceiling and the fact we finally, 140 years after the 13th Amendment have a non-Caucasian President, in and of themselves, gender and race really have little to do with the humanity of one's politics.

Most of the later Roman Emperors were not of native Latin stock, and they were not notably better rulers for it, either.

The problem is policies not personalities. The policy choices just seem to be getting worse along with the circumstances of the country. We had a great opportunity to take a fresh and more humane course in 2008, and the powers that be seem to have blown it for us.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Sound points all.
I am reluctantly coming to believe that our problems cannot and/or will not be fixed, the only way out is through.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. This drives home your point:
From a bit deeper in the article:


Consider the difference between the tea party and its antecedent on the left — the antiwar movement that came from out of nowhere to rally around the initially obscure presidential campaign of Howard Dean in 2003-04. Both movements have used distributed networks and social media to remind a major party that it was flouting a respected tradition within its ranks. Just as antiwar liberals in the George McGovern tradition had been taken for granted by pro-war pols like Bill Clinton and John Kerry, limited-government conservatives in the Barry Goldwater tradition had been openly mocked by both George W. Bush and John McCain.

But where is the antiwar left today? Largely domesticated and neutered. Dean was elected chairman of the Democratic National Committee, foreign policy activists put most of their chips on the "antiwar" candidate Barack Obama, and now we have a Democratic president using grotesque euphemisms such as "kinetic military action" to justify setting the bar for military intervention even lower than George W. Bush did.

The tea party has so far strategically avoided that fate. Being a bottom-up movement, there is no leader to co-opt. Rather than serving as shock troops for GOP incumbents against Democrats, tea party activists have demonstrated a willingness to unseat even electable Republicans in favor of candidates who take seriously their mostly single-issue concern of limited government. While commentators love mocking them for backing such not-ready-for-prime-time insurgents as Christine O'Donnell, even the Republican Party is smart enough to recognize the power of a growing bloc that refuses to be taken for granted.



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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Well, it's not exactly mine, but yeah.
I think the Tea Party is another political fad like Perot back in the 1990s, or the Naderites in 2000, which occurred for similar reasons and had much in common with the current version as rejectionist-populist fads. The point is that any mass-market party in this country cannot afford to do much lest it piss off some part of its "base", and the one thing almost all incumbent politicians agree on everywhere is that the public is best left asleep. The old cliche about the squeaky wheel applies.

I must say that the current political debacle trumps anything I've seen since the '60s, and it's getting worse, not better.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-26-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Perot's movement was top down,
People looked to him for leadership. The Teabaggers don't seem to have anyone in charge. They get some funding help from the oligarchs, and politicians keep trying to jump in front of the parade and claim leadership, but nobody really controls them. It looks like a genuine populist movement, warts and all. They may fade out, but not necessarily. There are externalities that never existed before, and which are likely to destabilize things further. We have insoluble resource problems. Our system is unsustainable. It's not a clearly defined issue, and our leadership has been reluctant to talk about it. The consensus response has been to ignore peak oil and climate change, but the public is starting to wake up. People are uneasy and stress is increasing. The economy hasn't recovered from the last shock. In fact the cracks haven't even been plastered over. The orgy of greed at the top is still in full swing. It's a volatile situation, and likely to become more so.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. True, there are differences, and nobody really knows where it goes.
I think it's interesting that nobody is "in charge" of the Teabaggers, that has all sorts of implications and ramifications. What would a political party with no leaders be like in US politics? The 60s/Hippies/etc. are the only comparable example I can think of.

As far as your other comments, well yeah, the thing going on now that really dumbfounds me is the inability of the Federal government to DO ANYTHING USEFUL about our problems. The only thing I can compare it with is when the entire governing class drank the Raygun KoolAid after he won office in 1980, which started us down the road we are coming to the end of now.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. It's been kind of like watching
someone you love drink themselves to death. I've been by turns angry and depressed and ultimately unable to do a damned thing about it.
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