Molly Ivins: "Bush is a nice guy"... Some thoughts on civility

Molly Ivins on a radio show today about Bush:

"I take jabs but I try real hard to not make them too personal. I think it's important to keep the attention on his horrible policies. Yes, I'm angry......but hate him? No, not at a personal level at all. Look, Bush is a nice guy. Honestly, he is. His POLICIES are awful, horrendous. I don't think that all is fair in politics. Laura? She's a nice lady, the twins were adorable when I knew them, and he's not the creep that many of my political persuasion think. He loves baseball and knows all the stats and truly loves the game. To me, that's a neat quality at a personal level. I think he's a bit socially immature, and more comfortable sitting around shootin the chips than in a policy briefing. And, unfortunately, that shows in most of the man's policies."

Q: What about the smirk?

"Well, he's had it for a long, time time. I really don't know how much of that is a cockiness or how much is insecurity with himself at the gut level. You know, he never shows his teeth when he smiles and tries to contain his smile because, and a lot of people don't know this, he has bad teeth. How else can I say it? I don't mean from neglect, I mean a cosmetic, physical problem with his teeth. I have heard from Democrats who were fairly close to him that he has a real problem with that and it makes him come across rather cold on television.

Q: Are you voting for Bush, you seem.....

"No! No! I am just saying to the caller that he's awful, one of the really bad ones when it comes to policies for this country. But, we should probably not take him apart at a personal level because he is not what some think and it DOES lower the level of our political discourse. But I've just always said that the man is not a monster at a personal level and, by the way, is not dumb either. That let's him off the hook. He is truly not dumb or stupid or some of the things I have heard. I know he is actually pretty smart and that's holding him accountable for his own actions, which I repeat, are almost all wrong. Dead wrong."

Thanks to Tamara for taking dictation from a radio show! (Lunch hour so it was ok.) I found her really sharp and I AGREE 100% that we MUST attack his policies over and over and over, but leave the "chimp", "whistleass," "pickles," etc. alone. All it does is make a lot of people not take our (Democrats) message seriously because they see the anger at him personally as immature. We have seen recently with photos of Dean that ANYONE can take a public person and find "evil" mean" photos. It's of no importance! His ridiculous policies matter though....and I agree with Ivins....when we venture into anecdotal stuff that can be found on anybody, we lose credibility on the issues. I also agree that making him "stupid" and a slave to Cheney and the staff let's BUSH off the hook. They're HIS policies and HE should be held accountable. It's GWB that is on the ballot in November! Some thoughts today....

but it is NOT his policies that are the problem. It is the people around him, THEY are the problem, they form the agenda, they have basically set this guy up as a puppet and are hijacking the country. From cheney and the stovepiping the Iraqi intell, to ashcroft and his frickin patriot act. Bush is out to lunch. Sorry to hear about his teeth though.

according to some who met him. Bush is a mass murderer and a treasonous felon. I don't give those people social civility.. no matter how many hats they wear. He's a fuck.

He fucks and murders people for a living, hes a criminal fucking dirtbag heap of parrot droppings rotting foul malefic underhanded devious cruel antisocial sick scumbag. :)

Perhaps next time a petty criminal is robbing you, you might ask him "please to not do so." and maybe he'll just smile, say "of course, madame" and shoot you dead.

Criminals are dirt. No respect. By respecting him, you piss on the graves of every american who fought and died to make this great country.

"He fucks and murders people for a living, hes a criminal fucking dirtbag heap of parrot droppings rotting foul malefic underhanded devious cruel antisocial sick scumbag."

I respect your opinion. But, to me, (and I think most people honestly), that kind of talk might be considered immature, frat talk, offensive, polarizing and will keep the message you want to get across from ever even getting the time of day. So many will write your thoughts off because of how it was delivered. Again, that's just my opinion and I know you feel strongly the other way. That's why we're Democrats (little "d" as well). :)

Pick me to death on my foul string of words, and forget the underlying point.

Milosovic, Saddam.... would you afford them nice cushy terms of endearment? My point is that he is not a nice guy and i have no problem spitting on his murdering face. If i met him face to face, i'd spit on him, on the behalf of all his victems.

Justice and the appearance of justice are two different things.

Did you notice what you wrote back to me??

"Pick me to death on my foul string of words, and forget the underlying point."

I think you made Molly's point (and mine) with those comments. You were angry that I focused on your words instead the content of your reply. Hello? That's exactly what Ivins was talking about. You don't like it when someone focuses on HOW you said something instead of what you're trying to get across. If YOU don't like it, what makes you think people will listen when you obscure YOUR message, with only reactionary emotionalism and calling someone a string of names like on a grade school playground?

or is he then a real creep?

i'm jussa high schuul droopoute, and i ain't in no position to insult the murderer in chief. :)

All the while, he kills more people while people talk and bicker about protocol.

The issue for me is that i don't buy that there is any protocol of respect for the man, and being foul is just a way to push buttons on people who have language-a-phobia. They're just words, it is the moralist who gives them too much charge... hell, "parrot droppings" is something from an old monty python script..

This is raw propaganda, and pushing people beyond their morals is the point in my free speech, while i still have it. Next week, if someone like me does not push the envelope, they may pass a law making it an offense to use "foul" language to describe a mass murderer.

Its great that you don't want to use such language. Perhaps you are protecting a reputation and seek office some day. That is not my objective at all. I am a writer. I use language to open doors, eyes and feelings to make people uncomfortable, and to break the mold of what i "SHOULD" be saying.

Mind control goes in many forms, and if molly ivans does not want to swear, than good for her, but to suggest that calling a fucking murderer a fucking murderer is ill advised is her own advise for herself and IMO, she should keep it to herself.

He's a fucking murderer. This is not junior high. THis is a criminal burning the constitution. If we can't cut through the veneer, then we are done.

I agree with everything you said and how you said it. I am well past the point of decorum. I am outraged beyond words and even the most vile sentiment doesn't begin to express my disgust with this smirking shit heap.

Also, I could really give a shite what "others" think of "us Democrats." Has civility stopped freepers from their sickening, lowbrow "colorful" rhetoric?

Civility is what got us into this mess in the first place. I am disappointed in Molly Ivins as well. As a journalist, she is required to communicate in a reasonably sane and balanced manner, but going as far as to say that monkey boy is a "nice guy" really diminishes her credibility in my opinion. :grr:

it does nothing for us and what we believe in if the best we can deliver is this obscene diatribe. I also like the tone of Molly Ivins and appreciate whoever took the time to dictate this.

...but this Texan hates Bush and what he knowingly, or unknowingly, has done to our country.

shouldn't call him names and attack him personally. However, I dislike him as a human being and a 'man'. I believe he is one of the most cowardly adult men I have ever seen.

at all. Any person that impetuously or even plans to invade a country and kill thousands of civilians on a lie is NOT a "nice guy" Sorry Molly--he is evil BECAUSE of his policies--separating the two does not work at all. It is poor logic.

Hey--let's bomb a couple of Afganistan houses and kill the children there--we suspect someone in there of terrorism--maybe that two year old and I am really a nice guy, it is the policy of sending mortars out to a home and killing little children that is bad.:eyes:

There is no way a man could espouse the policies that George Bush Jr. espouses without being either cruel or stupid. There's simply no other option.

If he doesn't realize his policies hurt people, he's stupid. If he doesn't care enough to actually pay attention during the meetings, he's cruel.

What did they blow it on instead?

In fact, someone said they noticed that in the State of the Union and wondered why he didn't get them fixed. It's not like he couldn't afford it. She only said something like it was probably a "macho" thing but agreed she has wondered that as well. Also, she says she is always asked about her "Bush is a nice guy" comment all the time and that's what keeps it going. It was a response to a caller. She said that yeah, she said it and feels it, but it's amazing that thinking someone is not truly stupid and thinking someone has a friendly personality gets so much attention.

See some of these, for example.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/images/campaign2000/bush/splash.htm


I haven't noticed any particular irregularity -- and he quit smoking a long time ago, so it wouldn't be discoloration ...

The only person I can imagine having an effect on Bush's facial expressions from an early age would be his own mother, and surely if she thought it was a serious problem, she could have done something about it (as people have already said on this thread!) -- rather than just ordering him not to show them.

I would imagine that Bush can probably be quite charming when he wants to be (and he's smart enough to know that being rude to Molly Ivins would be a tactical mistake). The REAL test of niceness is whether someone is pleasant to people when it's not to his advantage (or even might be detrimental to him).

i have never disagreed with molly ivins before. she is right about one thing, though, bush is dumb like a fox. he's the equivalent of the lazy sibling who purposely fucks up the chores to get out of doing them.

If Dubya isn't dumb then how does this square with him being a
"nice guy"? He damn well knew that there were no WMDs, no immenent threat and no connections to Al Q. in Iraq. A statement by Colin Powell a year before the invasion proves this. I will find that statement and post it. The tax cut for the Upper Class was and is a lie when Dubya said it benefits the Middle Class. There is a statement of his where he said this: A blatant lie. This man knows the difference between lies and the truth. When he lies to Congress and the American people in order to expand business or the Upper Class and is responsible for thousands of deaths and maimed human beings it is not a mark of being a "nice guy". The man is a hyprocrite and scum. He should be charged with crimes against humanity and crimes against the American people.

Quote:

"We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions -- the fact that the sanctions exist -- not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein's ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction."

"We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq, and these are policies that we are going to keep in place, but we are always willing to review them to make sure that they are being carried out in a way that does not affect the Iraqi people but does affect the Iraqi regime's ambitions and the ability to acquire weapons of mass destruction, and we had a good conversation on this issue." Colin Powell

When did Powell say this? February 24, 2001. More than a year before his presentation at the U.N., Powell knew that Saddam didn't have any WMDs and knew that Iraq wasn't a threat to its neighbors. He knew that the sanctions and inspections were working. He knew, when he gave his speech before the U.N. that everything he was saying was untrue.

The best I can do is pity for him. I sometimes think that when he gets his comeuppance, I will feel sorry for him, as I did for Gingrich (Yes, truly, believe it or not).

But I don't buy the Bush-is-nice claim, even from the wonderful Molly Ivins. Perhaps her finding him likeable is more a reflection of her approach to people than his approach to people.

Bush has always rubbed me the wrong way. He's boastful, smug, self-righteous, controlling, incurious, insensitive, and vindictive. Just watch how he acts around reporters. Giving out nicknames strikes me as both a way to give the impression of fraternity rush friendliness (which is pretty damned phoney, in my book) and a way to control the press by making mascots of them.

Frankly, folks, he also strikes me as having quit drinking without having treated the symptoms of alcoholism. In short, he has a definite spiritual and emotional immaturity about him. The black-and-white worldview, the fairy tale view of Christianity that doesn't allow for setbacks, confusion and struggling -- it all sets off alarm bells within me.

Anyone else want to weigh in on those things?

I've noticed that genuinely-nice people tend to have a much more positive view of life in general, and (for example) will go out of their way to defend individuals even if they have been wronged by them.

And even if said individual is a phony, the nice person will offer the benefit of the doubt. This is probably what Molly is doing.

As for Bush -- I'm with you on the "alarm bells", CBH. I've met people who are okay to work with (especially given that there are supervisors, rules, etc. around to keep them civil) -- but I wouldn't trust them as personal friends. And heaven help us if there were a breakdown of society, or they'd be the ones bullying the rest of us ...

From what I've heard/seen of Bush, he gives me the same kind of vibes.

Not nice - mean. Also, per Tucker Carlson, recall how he made fun of that woman who was being executed in Texas. He made up a sing-song little ditty mocking her plea to avoid execution.

while waiting for a possible pardon from the death chamber.

Especially with somebody who may be uncommitted, I stick to policies. I can be fairly civilized while pointing out the flaws in what Bush & his cronies have said & done.

However, in the presence of like-minded people--online or in "real life"--I'm not so circumspect. He's a spoiled frat-rat, unintelligent & cruel. I could keep going.....

...countless times.

Ofcourse I don't know Bush, but politics aside, my guess is that he is probably a nice enough person. I also believe most Americans have the same opinion.

I cringe when I see post after post after post calling Bush evil, stupid, like Hitler, a moron, an idiot, brainless, wicked....

Bush is none of those things. He is a clever politician whose policies are for the most part completely wrong for America and the world. His views do represent a sizable portion of the American electorate, and I am sure Bush thinks that for the most part he is doing what is right for the country.

Calling him evil and comparing him to Hitler simply doesn't ring true with the vast majority of the American public. And I suspect most American's perceptions are correct. Bush is not some monster, he is just wrong on most policy issues.

Repeatedly deriding Bush as a stupid moron and brainless halfwit is also likely not only wrong but damaging to our own cause. First, to have gotten as far as he has, even considering all his Daddy's help, probably has required at least average intelligence. Second, talking about Bush as if he were dumber than a box of rocks, especially in an echo chamber like this forum, I believe has the unfortunate effect of causing an awful lot of otherwise reasonably wise people on the left to misjudge and underestimate him.

Yeah, calling Bush names is not only fun but a good way to vent from time to time. Nothing wrong with it either when we are talking amongst ourselves and when done in moderation. People should just remember that the reality is that Bush is probably not in any way dumb or evil, and the majority of the nation will never accept those arguments. Even if/when Bush loses in November, it won't be because people thought Bush was some horrible person or an idiot - it will be because people liked our candidate and vision for the future more than his. Bush is just wrong on virtually all the issues our nation faces. That is plenty good enough reason to work to defeat him and his party in November.

Imajika

being reasonable.

You are one of my favorite posters at DU because your posts are always SO GOOD. I wish I could say things half as eloquently as you do.

I appreciate your kind words.

Imajika

Oops...I meant this as a reply to another post. But, it'll work!

"The measure of a persons character is not how they talk of their friends, it's how they speak of their enemies."
- Vaclav Haval

Summer Meditations is a book about returning civility to public life. I can't recommend it highly enough. And this is a guy who spent years in PRISON for his beliefs.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679744975/002-5580850-4824843?v=glance

The rest of us aren't under her constraints.

Goddamn Piece of Shit pResident.

W* is A Lowlife Scum of The Earth. etc.

See the difference, I could be anybody, I'm not running for anything.

I could be some Rovian Puker trying to make DU look bad. But who looks

bad on an anonimous message board and why are you so worried about it.

Start your own message board with your own rules or get a blog and play all nice.

I say Fuck B*sh and the horses he is afraid to ride.

You are wasting your time.

Perhaps she's trying to suggest acceptable behaviour to Bush through positive peer pressure ... as in, using honey rather than vinegar. After all, hardly anyone does bad things because they're convinced they're evil ... they're convinced that they're doing the right thing, for a just cause. The classic way for a teacher to get "problem" students onside is to have them see themselves as "responsible" and "helping". I think that Bush's mom used to use this technique, though not in a positive sense ... she appointed him the "enforcer" and he was the one who kept his younger siblings in line.

I sometimes do a version of the mind-trick at school, to defuse confrontations. If a student says, "You're marking too hard -- we're not smart enough to write papers like you want them done, it's not fair" -- I smile and say, "Sure you are! You're 19, you've had lots of experience in this kind of thing, plus you're smart enough to get into university AND reach your junior year. I will not have you putting yourself (and your classmates) down! Now go out there and start the next assignment -- here are a couple of tiny suggestions that might be useful -- and I'll bet that you'll have no problem finding lots of information."

So instead of sulking and whining, s/he actually goes out and does pretty well. We already know that Bush is kind of susceptible (e.g. when he ventured a comment critical of the tax cuts) -- only Karl dragged him back on track during that meeting. Maybe Molly has noticed this as well. Getting Bush away from Dick and Karl could only be a positive thing ...


p.s. admittedly this does presuppose (as most progressives do?) that people will "do the right thing" when it's pointed out to them -- NOT assume that whatever they are doing IS right (because they have been put there by God and are infallible), and just go on with the status quo.

and we DETEST the chimp!

cya!;-)

You want mean and spiteful? Check out FreeRepublic. The things we say about Bush are nothing compared to the things they say about Hillary Clinton.

Political discourse is rarely polite. No offense but, if this bothers you, you might not be comfortable posting on public political forums such as DU. You might want to check out the forums on "fluffybunniesandchicks.com".

Sorry, but that's how "we liberals" are. Welcome to DU. :hi:

you heard Rush/Hannity/O'Liely/a fellow freep say "liberals are full of hate" and no matter what you found on this forum you were never going to change your mind.

You, however, must be a hell of a forgiving soul - obstructing FBI/CIA investigations re terrorism and the saudi's, record deficits, capital and employment flight, 500 soldiers dead in war the admin lied about, cronyism, cash for access etc etc etc etc I'm an Australian so I've got less reason to complain (except the pre-emptive war doctrine and some of the more obscene global muscle flexing) than you - but I guess you like living in a basket case of an economy under the threat of terror attack (increased since the war according to almost ALL expers) breathing in toxic waste.

not necessarily the 'hate' variety, but just normal everyday radio, and you get hammered by the well fed, well educated, extremely articulate men who, despite all the evidence, are always there for geebush....and these were the same type who's hatred/contempt for clinton, liberalism, the left etc are always ALWAYS hogging the floor (at least when i'm listening) It is those men, faceless and too numerous to count, who i hate...i mean HATE with a psycho intensity. Geebush is geebush, a small businessman with you're usual 'happy capitalist' opinions; and after reading 'fortunate son' i have not one moment to waste on that smarmy lil grasping dupe...but i do love seeing him wage war on the golden goose which nurtured him (liberal america) and all his perverse fans! The 'samson option' may be ridiculous, but the endless lies and ruthless ignorance displayed by the busheviks has literally made the end of the world a personal preference to witnessing anymore of the bfee successes!
hmmm...

election. How much does it take people around here to get that the Republicans take no prisoners? How many times do us Democrats have to ask ourselves "Are we good people?" "Are we polite people?" etc. etc.etc while the Republicans fuck us over and over and over? I KNOW Im a nice guy but Im not stupid...Molly Ivins (god love her) is way WAY off base here...if it looks like a snake and acts like a snake it's a fucking snake! And I don't give a shit how many baseball facts this asshole knows.

For people who meet politicians in politicians, distingushing the politician's personal behavior from his policies may be useful.

I don't meet politicians, and so for me the distinction is irrelevant.

I hold George W. responsible for his policies, including
1) the malicious prosecution of Green Peace
2) declaring in the Jose Padilla case that he has the unlimited power to imprison us indefinitely
3) the $8.5 million used to attack people at the Miami FTAA protests
4) the stolen election of 2000
5) much more

and I don't know or care what he's like in person.

does not work to their best advantage. As romantic as it may seem to be so kind towards anyone, and I say that anyone could be someone like a Ted Bundy, it is not healthy to do so.

Not knowing where your boundaries are is self defeating.

Bush is evil. Period.

He is not a "nice guy" at all. I don't know where Molly is headed here and frankly I , as much as I like reading her,do not particularyly care why she chooses to heap praise on him and separate him from his "policies" That makes no sense whatsoever to me and say to me that she has been conned. The con man really loves her, he just did not know the difference etc.

He is quite delusional, narcissistic, and does not have our best interests at heart and not ot mention that he took office, illegally and without concern for our democratic process.

It is not his policies, but it is Bush andhis policies that are dark, dank and evil. We do NOT enable this by becoming wimpy flacid non persons who do not have any boundaries. We NEED boundaries, especially now.

We do not need to be rag rugs in order to call ourselves Democrats.

Too many Democrats roll over and spread 'em almost by reflex. The Democrats need to figure out what the hell we stand for and then STAND for it, not give it up every time a Pubbie frowns at us for not being sufficiently nice. Jeebus, what a bunch of wimps some of us are.

I have with this is that Democrats always bend over backwards to be "nice". Well except with each other. Look at Daschle the other night, way too soft-spoken and "nice". The Republicans always engage in personal attacks, calling people unpatriotic for criticizing Bush. Look at what they did to Cleland. If Bush is so gosh-darned nice then why the hell does he condone the type of personal attacks that Republicans do on his behalf?

He's a prick! You can tell easily by the smirks on his ugly fucking face. Anyone who says he's a "nice" guy, even Molly, is kissing ass on some level.

Do you like him or not?

:)

1. He sat reading a story and did nothing to protect the country he had sworn
to protect after being informed it had been attacked.

2. He started a premptive war in a country that posed little or no threat to America, when almost the entire world community said there were other options.

3. He had a respected reporter who had the honor of asking the first question at press conferences exiled to the rear of the press room & never let her ask another question.

4. He was a drunk and was arrested for drunk driving.

5. He used profane language to denounce a reporter at a public rally.

6. He mocked a woman who's life he was in position to show mercy when
again much of the world was pleading for him to show her some mercy.

7. He calls his wife the lump in his bed.

These are all factual statements of personal decisions that he had or should have had direct control over. #2 being the possible exception.

For anyone attempting to make the case that he might be a nice guy,
Please give an example of what sort of behavior would allow reasonable people to assume he might not be a nice guy.