Howard Zinn and Daniel Pipes discussion October 4, 2002

TONY JONES, PRESENTER: Now to our Friday Forum on the Iraqi dilemma, with two formidable guests in the US.

Joining me now from Seattle is Daniel Pipes. He's one of the few analysts who predicted the threat of militant Islam. Daniel Pipes now serves on the Special Task Force on Terrorism and Technology at the US Department of Defence. He's testified before many congressional committees, worked for four presidential campaigns. And he's now director of the Middle East forum.

And in New York is one of America's most distinguished historians, Professor Howard Zinn. Author of "People's History of the United States", he's still Professor Emeritus at Boston University. Professor Zinn was deeply involved in the civil rights and anti-Vietnam war movements. Now he's a trenchant critic of President George W Bush and his war plans for Iraq.

Welcome to you both.

PROFESSOR HOWARD ZINN, HISTORIAN: Thank you.

DANIEL PIPES, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST FORUM: Thank you.

TONY JONES: Howard Zinn, do you get impression that the administration may be now backing away from the pre-emptive war against Iraq?

PROFESSOR HOWARD ZINN: Well, I certainly hope so. I hope that the administration's listening to those voices around the world which it seems not to care about, voices which are suggesting that the US would be the aggressor nation, that the US would be violating international law and that the US would be, well, killing a lot of people in Iraq for very, very dubious ends. And I'm hoping that the administration begins to turn around.

But this is an administration that seems hell-bent on war, in violation of international law and violation of some of the basic moral rule of just war, which is that you do not initiate a war if you're attacked. You defend yourself, but you don't initiate a war which is what the US and the Bush Administration are proposing to do.

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Howard Zinn And Daniel Pipes

(Mods, sorry. I could only find this on Daniel Pipes's website)

He is a great speaker and, at 82, still very sharp.

:-)

Daniel Pipes was being an @$$ during this interview.