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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:29 PM
Original message
Help Me Translate: Bill Of Rights Amendments IX and X
If I read IX and X correctly, wouldn't the Constitutional Amendment that bans same-sex marriage be unconstitutional? Obviously nobody has yet crafted exactly what the wording will be... but it seems to me that no matter how clever the wording, the net effect would be contrary to the rights already guaranteed to us.

Or am I mistaken? Any help or comments would be appreciated.

-- Allen


http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. A Constitutional Amendment
can NOT be unconstitutional. Once ratified by the states it becomes part of the Constitution.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You can not make a constitutional amendment that is contradictory
to another amendment. One amendment can not take rights guaranteed by another. It just doesn't work that way.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I think it can
That's why they wanted to have an amedment banning burning the flag because flag burning is seen as being protected under the first amendment. I think that is why prohibtion was put in the constitution as well. They feared that it would be struck down as unconstitutional.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. They have wanted to take away rights for a long time .
At every opportunity Republicans have wanted "Constitutional Amendments" to take away some right we have. They haven't succeeded yet. They have succeeded in taking away rights, don't get me wrong, just not by Constitutional Amendment.
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Adapter44 Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Really?
Please point to the section of the constitution that forbids rights being taken away in future amendments. Or that states amendments may not contradict. You have NO legal basis for your claim. You are quoting rules that do not exist.

See my post below regarding how a contradiction could be legally handled.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Oh, yes, it does.
For instance, they had to pass an amendment to impose an income tax on Americans, because the SC siad it was unconstitutional. aone amendment imposed Prohibition. Before, people had a right to drink and possess alcohol. Afterwards, they had to repeal the amemdment. Yes, your rights CAN be taken away by constitutional amendment. don't ever doubt it.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. they can
new laws always take precedent over old ones.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. Amendments 18 and 21
#18 was Prohibition; #21 repealed it.

Of course, in this case, it could be argued that the 18th amendment took away rights and the 21st restored them. But it does set the precedent that you can amend the Constitution to void another section of it.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. By definition... sure... but what happens if two or more amendments
conflict with each other?
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. then a court has to decide what takes precedent in a specific case
and clarify. However the implied argument from the combination of !X and X is not greater than an explicit amendment banning gay marriage. 1+1=2 but 3 is greater.
unfortunatel
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. But lowering the status...
...to second class citizens for a group of people IS unconstitutional, and that is what the FMA is all about.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. The constitution trumps any and all other laws
though
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Unfortunately, this would supercede these amendments
In much the same way as Amdt. XXI (Prohibition Repeal) supercedes Amdt. XVIII (Prohibition).
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. .you are correct!...........here 's how i read them
Edited on Sat Jan-24-04 04:09 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
IX-Does not deny people any rights not specifically mentioned in the Constitution.

X- Gives to states or the people the power not granted to Congress or denied to the states.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. Also against the 14th
Equal protection under the law. Not to mention the first.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. You are correct.
Actually, you could go back to the 1st ammendment per freedom of religion. There are two types of marriages today: civil (justice of the peace) and religious (priest/minister etc). The right-wing opposes gay marriage strictly on religious grounds .... their own perverse sense of morality "grants" them the right to make exactly the types of judgements that Jesus told them NOT to make.(!) So, I think it is fair to say that gay folks can't get married in their churches. No biggie .... they can get married in any # of progressive churches. Then we come to civil ceremonies. No church "owns" any court room. They have absolutely no say in that area. I would be unhappy, for example, if gay folks used their religious/spiritual beliefs to try to limit my right to be married to my wife. There is no legal/moral standing to support the far-right's foolish and hateful point of view.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Sorry, there's only
one type of marriage. Civil or religious refer only to the type of ceremony. The responsibilities and obligations are the same in both cases.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. wrong
Civil marriages bring rights that religious marriages do not necessarily bring and vice versa. A strictly religious marriage does not grant legal benefits. A strictly civil marriage does not offer the religious benefits of marriage.
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Adapter44 Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Errr
unconstitutional means a statue (that is NOT in the constitution) is AGAINST an article in the constitution its self. For example, you pass a federal law that says no more jurys are to be used in trials.

If you amend the constitution it is a different story. The constitution can not be unconstitutional, you see?

The ONLY limit on amendments is placed on a states representation in the senate. The constitution says no amendment may change a states representation in the senate.

HOWEVER - you could in theory repeal that clause and THEN change states representation in the senate through another amendment.

Now it is possible that the constitution could be in conflict with it's self. I think this is what you mean. The thing is... This would be very odd. The courts would have to interpret it and rule... and quite frankly that's about all they could do.

For example you might be able to argue equal protection under the law conflicts with the marriage amendment, for example. I mean lets say you have an amendment that says you have a right to free speech, then you have one that says you don't have a right to free speech. WTF do the courts do?

I suspect two things might be decided in such a sitation -

1. The courts say hell with it, and either rule for or against same sex marriage regardless of a contradiction. i.e. "i think there is a contradiction between equal protection and the marriage amendment, however I don't care and am going to let bigotry allow me to rule against same sex marriage. end of story"

2. Or it might be decided that newer amendments take precedence over old sections if in conflict. (i.e. the conflicting section is not repealed) The reasoning could be two fold - 1. Obviously the people passing the newer amendment were aware of the conflict. Because of this we can assume they wanted the newer amendment to override the older section. 2. You might have had equal protection under the law before. You still do with the amendment EXCEPT in this paricular case which was added. Then just cross apply reason one.

Number 2 would seem to legally work out.
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Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You cannot mend any part of the Constitution! Period end of sentence!
But you can ammend ammendments to the Constitution. Thats as simple as it gets folks.
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Adapter44 Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Please take a class in law
Edited on Sat Jan-24-04 04:22 PM by Adapter44
If your claim was true, why was this section of Article 2 section 1 suspended?


"The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not lie an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two-thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice-President"

Why was Article 3 section 2 modified?

Why was this section in article 4 section 2 suspended?

"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due"

I can go on.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Nope
The Constitution was amended in the case of how Senators are chosen among several other things.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. implied rights......
some rights are not explicitly stated in the Constitution. The Ninth Ammendment reads, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people" The ammendment clearly leaves the door open for determining just which rights have constitutional protection.
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fumetti Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
16. Here's the irony...
An amendment banning gay marriages would be constitutional. It's not unconstitutional to pass contradicting amendments.

Right now--without any amendment--this whole gay marriage issue WILL be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court some day. Someone will contest a state law and it will move up to the top.

The push for the anti-gay amendment is argued as putting the decision in the hands of the legislature, not the courts.

But...

Since this amendment would clearly contradict the 14th amendment (equal treatment grounds) and maybe others, then the whole matter will go to the courts for clarification

The courts will decide this, amendment or not.

My belief is that Congress can pass the amendment, but that it probably won't be ratified. That's my guess. I think they'll get quite a few states, but not enough to ratify.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. So Who Votes... The People Directly? Congress? Senate?
I wasn't paying attention in civics class that day. I ought to know the answer, but I couldn't tell you for sure. I could google it... but it would be easier for someone to answer it here for me (and for the other few who are afraid to ask.)

-- Allen
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Adapter44 Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Do you mean for the amendment?
There are 4 official legal ways to amend the constitution.

The method used decides where the votes come from.
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JDPhD Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. The Amendment Process
An amendment can be proposed by a two-thirds vote of both houses of Congress, or by a convention called by two-thirds of the states. The propsed amendment will then have to pass through one of two possible methods of ratification--as decided by Congress. An amendment can be ratified either by three-fourths of the state legislatures, or by special conventions (selected for this one purpose) in three-fourths of the states. So far, all amendments have been proposed by a two-thirds vote in Congress, and all but one have been ratified by votes in the state legislatures. Only the repeal of prohibition was ratified by state conventions.

I doubt we will even see an anti-gay marriage amendment get the necessary two-thirds support in Congress. And I am pretty sure, even if we did, it would fail in the state legislatures. Thus, if such a bill does pass Congress, I would expect it to be sent to special state conventions for ratification.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. This is why congressional elections are exceedingly important
The republicans are close to a 2/3 majority and with a few more seats they'll have it. In which case we will see a HUGE battle (I hope) over this.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. No it won't
If a law is passed by a state banning Gay marriage it stands unless someone challenges it. In Massachusets the state SC decided that there was nothing in their state constitution nor in the US constitution to say that gays couldn't marry (for the amendment's allen posted and the 14th as well). If they want that case can be brought to the USSC. Then it would be decided by the courts

A law passed by the federal government could be brought to the SC as well

an Amendment however as part of the constitution cannot be declared unconstitutional (since it is in effect a part of the constitution). The conservatives are so afraid of 'Judicial Activism' that they want to put it above reproach by making it a constitutional amendment.

They already have 37 states in favour, which is almost enough to carry an amendment.
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JDPhD Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. You completely misunderstand the IXth amendment.
First, a small history lesson.

The Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution after its ratification to fulfill a compromise made between the Federalists (who supported the new constitution) and Antifederalists (who opposed the new constitution) during the ratification process. Both were concerned that the national government created by the Constitution would be too powerful. The Federalist thought this problem was dealt with sufficiently through (1) structural restraints--the "separation of powers" and "checks and balances" you learned about in school, and (2) the underlying assumptions of a "limited constitutional government."

Limited government has become an all but forgotten concept in our modern times, so, please let me explain. The Founders felt that by creating a written constitution with a short list of specifically enumerated powers that were delegated to the Congress (and thus to the national government as a whole--see Art. I sec. 8 of the Constitution) that they would severely limit the powers of the government. The basic assumption was, "if it isn't on the list, you can't do it." Thus, if the list didn't grant Congress the power to regulate religion, then they didn't have the power to do so. If the list didn't grant Congress the power to abridge freedom of speech, they didn't have the power to do so. Etc.

But such limitations were not good enough for the Antifederalists. They believed quite rightly that the new national government would constantly seek to expand its powers beyond those that had been specifically granted to it. They believed that in addition to a list of what the national government can do, there should also be a list of what it can't do. What they wanted was a bill of rights that would list what areas the national government was supposed to stay away from.

At first, the Federalists opposed the inclusion of a bill of rights. They had two primary objections. First, it is impossible to include on such a list everything that the government can' do. It's much better to have a list of what the government can do--which was already in the Constitution. Second, if a list of rights was included, (1) people would start to think that they only have the rights mentioned on the list (and that is exactly what has happened), and (2) they would completely forget the assumption of limited constitutional government and begin to think that the national government can do anything that it is not prohibited from doing by the bill of rights (and this is exactly what happened too).

Well, despite their objections, the Federalists finally gave in and agreed to add a bill of rights to the Constitution. This change allowed them to secure enough Antifederalist support to get the document ratified.

When the first Congress then met after the successful ratification and took up fulfilling the promise of adding the Bill of Rights, they were still faced with the problem of people wrongly assuming that they only have those rights that are include in the Bill of Rights. They tried to deal with this problem by including the IXth Amendment.

The whole point of the IXth is to say that we have other rights (and, inversely, the national government lacks power) in areas beyond those listed in the previous eight amendments.

But, this still leaves a big problem. What are these other, unlisted rights? And who decides what they are?

Well, there is an important clue to answering these questions that is found in the language of the amendment. Notice that the amendment says "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others RETAINED by the people." In other words, these "other" unenumerated rights were ones that the people kept or "retained", while they gave some other powers over to the national government (such as the power to tax).

But there is a problem here that too few people recognize. In order for gay marriage to be one of the unenumerated rights that is protected by the IXth Amendment, it must be a "retained" right. But for you or me or We the People to "retain" something, we must have it in the first place. You can't retain or keep something that you don't already have. Thus, in order for gay marriage to be a right that was retained (or kept) by the people when the Constitution was created and the Bill of Rights added (and thus covered by the IXth Amendment), it has to be a right that the people had when the amendment was added to the Constitution. Quite simply, if gay marriage was not "right" that people had and "retained" on Dec 15th, 1791, then it is not covered by the IXth Amendment. Gay marriage cannot be a "right" that was "retained" if it wasn't a right that the people had at the time when they were retaining them.

Well, was gay marriage a "right" that the people "retained" in 1791? Of course not. No one can doubt that if we got in a time machine and went back to 1791 and took a survey, a majority of Americans (probably 99% of them) would say that they did NOT have a right to engage in gay marriage. Well, if it wasn't even a right back then, then it could not be one of the rights that the people "retained" now could it?

In short, there is absolutely no conflict between the IXth Amendment and anti-gay marriage legislation or amendments.

But even if there was a conflict, more recent amendments supersede older passages. So an anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment would simply overrule and displace any previously added constitutional passages within the narrow scope of its subject matter. Such an amendment would overrule the IXth (if there was a conflict--though there isn't), the Xth, or even the XIVth and its Equal Protection Clause.

It is impossible for an addition to the Constitution to be "unconstitutional." Whatever was most recently added wins.

But, if we go back to one of my first points about limited constitutional powers, we must conclude that Congress was never granted the power to regulate marriage. It is not on the list found in Art. I, sec. 8. So, I believe, DOMA should be considered an unconstitutional overextension of the powers of Congress. Issues such as marriage were clearly left within the powers of the state governments at the time of the Constitution's ratification.

Nonetheless, this does not mean that gay marriage must be allowed nationally either. The Founders certainly would say that it was left as a matter for the individual states to decide. And this does not mean that one state can force its will on another. The Founders would have been outraged to think that courts might make use of the Full Faith and Credit Clause found in Art. IV, sec. 1 to force states which don't want gay marriage to accept it. Such a move would have been viewed as an extreme abuse of judicial authority. The same goes for those legislators who wrote and ratified the Equal Protection Clause of the XIVth Amendment. They would be stunned if they were told that their amendment somehow created a national right to gay marriage. They would call such an interpretation insane.

The only way to find any protection for gay marriage in the Constitution is by grossly distorting the words and intended meanings that are found there. No honest judge could ever find such a right buried in that text.

It is an issue that should be resolved state by state. If states want to continue solely recognizing hetro marriage, let them. If states want to recognize gay marriage, let them. And if you don't like what your state is doing, lobby the legislature to change its collective mind or move to a state where you better fit in. But please don't go to court and ask judges to abuse their powers by unilaterally rewriting the Constitution to your liking. There is only one legitimate way to change the Constitution, and that is the amendment process outlined in Art. V.

Sory I went off for so long, but peopel--particularly judges--who misread the Constitution to force their own beliefs into it really bug me.
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whatelseisnew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Thanks, well written, concise, helpful. Question:
Could one successfully argue that the right to gay marriage

was retained by the people who practiced an act of equality, in secret, even suffering great oppresion in their 'pursuit of happiness?'

Could marriage not be ruled as one of the most profound acts of 'speech'?

See what I'm driving at?
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I Agree. --- I Appreciate All The Comments And Explanations Everyone Has..
contributed to this thread. (I'm learning a lot here.)

But... that one was one of the better ones.

-- Allen
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whatelseisnew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. Who has the 'power'? I'd infer 1people 2State 3Fed
That seems to be the order of lay out especially when we reference a 'gov't of by and for...'

Is that important in this equation?
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
20. A no brainer
that the repugs already know. They are only posturing for their friends on the fringe. Once the election is over this will become a non-issue, except for the very few wackos that make their living with hatred.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
24. You would be right for any law denying gay marriage
indeed that is similar to the argument that the Mass court made last year.

However, when something new is written into the constitution it overrides the others.
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