George Bush is INSANE if he thinks the middle east is ready

Ready for democracy, that is.. The culture that exists all over the region will NEVER accept our western lifestyle or culture.. In so many ways, they are hopelessly "stuck" in the barbaric past.. Revenge and myth have no place in a democracy..

This picture made me physically ill.. No one in it is dead...but I warn you i advance..it's TERRIBLE


?very disturbing picture..


Tue Mar 2,10:48 AM ET


Shiite Muslim Mohammed Jomahaa cuts the head of his son with a sword during the annual ritual to mark Ashoura Day in the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, Tuesday March 2, 2004. Ashoura day marks the Shiite Muslim's commemoration of the 7th century killing of their most revered Saint Imam Hussein. Al Hussein was a grandson of Islam's prophet Mohammed and is a symbol of martyrdom for Shiites. (AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari)


another.. this time cut by his MOTHER

Tue Mar 2,10:08 AM ET

?what is wrong with these people?

Shiite Muslim child Mahmoud Slieman after his mother cut him with a sword during the annual ritual to mark Ashoura Day in the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, Tuesday March 2, 2004. Ashoura day marks the Shiite Muslim's commemoration of the 7th century killing of their most revered Saint Imam Hussein. Al Hussein was a grandson of Islam's prophet Mohammed and is a symbol of martyrdom for Shiites. (AP Photo/Mohammed Zaatari)

happens to a lot of male babies in this country, and is it any different.

but there is a "slight" difference between a procedure done in a hospital under sanitary conditions, to a very newborn (who won't remember any of it)...AND cutting your child on the head with a huge knife..and letting his blood dry on his face...and doing it in a dirty and dusty location..

I'm sorry.. this is barbaric..

makes people think backwards..................Muslim fashion hasnt changed in 5000 years

WE killed it, and who supports those royal dynasties and anti-democratic forces over there? The answer is the U.S. If we actually left these people alone, they can, in thier own way, set up democracies, but no, because maybe the people their wouldn't want to give the U.S. a free pass on their oil, so we bribe, cheat, assasinate, whatever is necessary to keep the oil flowing, that's sick.

As far as I know, India is a democracy, so to say that Muslims are not or cannot thrive in a democracy is absurd.

on them. it gives democracy a bad name. democracy only works if the people WANT it.

Their lives revolve around things that are in NO way even remotely democratic...

Can you see them trying to enforce a constitution, when the mullah or the imam or the ayatollah says somethiung different??

Until they at least start to change on their own, democracy will never work..

Yes.. I know Iran once had a democracy..but they "lost" it due to our intervention, and will an "counter-intervention" in the area, restore democracy?? I think not..

It's like your Mom buying a completed stamp collection for you at a garage sale (My mother did this once, because she thought my sister needed a hobby :eyes:)..

The MAKING of the democracy is what ,makes it work.. The fact that all sides can sit together on equal terms and negotiate on the same level is what makes it valid.. As long as they are "bowing" to their religious leaders, a democracy will not be tolerated there.. The ones in power will never relinquish it:(

Hatred can get in the way of democracy, that is true, but the most important thing is that the ones in power only hold on to it by a thread, and a little push can bring the house down. We prop many of these regimes up, either directly or indirectly. Education is the key, not imposeing democracy at the end of a barrel but simply presenting it with an open book. These regimes rule by fear, and the people are scattered in their own prejudices and hatreds, whether justified or not. It will not be easy for them, but putting past hatreds aside and working together is possible, and should be explored.

Their schools are very much like our rightwing radio.. only spewing hatred.. If we cannot even get a dissenting opinion on the "free airwaves" of our democracy, how on earth do we plan to break throough their "wall of hatred and distrust"??

We poked the hornets' nest, and broke it.. They will not just vanish..

First off, the U.S. should NOT take part in any education scheme. Too much bad blood, mostly theirs. How is there ever to be change without the ideas in place first? I do not know all the answers, however I will say that the support of the U.N. is neccessary and so is the support of the democratic groups already in place in these countries. Yes they do exist, but need support. The U.S. should pull out of the Mideast entirely, with the U.N. in its place. The Mideast is a powderkeg and we are the match, that powderkeg must be defused.

We can offer the seeds, but THEY must plant and tend them ..

Democracy must come from within, otherwise it is a farce. People in Iraq and Afghanistan know this and therefore oppose U.S. efforts in this regard. The thing is though, that it doesn't give democracy a bad name, only the U.S. We must remember that extreme times call for extreme backlash and the results are bad for both sides. Think of the Russian Revolution or the Overthrow of the Shah in Iran.

Revenge and myth have no place in a democracy..

Revenge? American is hardly immune.

Considering the fact American public schools are teaching creationism whilst rejecting evolution and Christians are steering the country I would say myth plays a big play in American society, and much to its detriment.

And you don't live in a democracy. America is a republic.

re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.

A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

A nation that has such a political order.

A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.

A nation that has such a political order.
______________

de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


As for the pictures, I simply see the rites of another culture and religion and I accept their rituals.

The culture of war that is currently being facilitated by the Bush administration, viewed by many who don't live in the USA and the UK, goes far deeper than a nick in a kid's head.

Here's some other "Barbaric" Hindus in Singapore.
http://www.riverdream.org/kavadipix2.htm

:P

and I am very familiar with the "republic" meme.. I hear the freepies on c-span wetting themselves as they love to "remind" everyone:)

I am assuming you live in Holland.. Lucky you :)

Our democracy is a democracy based on a Constitution protecting the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.

There's a good chance that Iraq will choose a majoritarian type of democracy where the most votes wins the day, i.e., laws are passed to oppress the Sunni minority for the benefit of the Shiite majority, women are legally subordinate to men (even property thereto if put into legislation).

Alternatively, the democracy in Iraq may not be a true IRAQI democracy as I believe the U.S. will always have its spoon in the Iraqi pot, stirring. I can't see a truly independent state, government, judiciary, etc., apart from U.S. interference, directive, influence. And don't get me started about an independent monetary system or oil production solely belonging to even private Iraqi business.

* lied to force an invasion, called it a war, declared "mission accomplished," and set up a satellite/colony of the U.S. as a base of operations in the Mideast from where new countries will be added to Iraq, employing the same modus operandi.

This is a proverbial Greek tragedy of another empire.

(at least so far), there is no requirement for us to accept what other societies or cultures accept. I too, find this act appalling, just as I find cannibalism appalling. But my revulsion will not change these people, they will simply go 'underground' with their practices, just as Neo-Nazi's, the Klan and a myriad of other groups here in the US have done.

I also agree that democracy cannot be forced by the barrel of a gun, but must be wanted by the people that are approached with the idea, it must come from a deep yearning to be free by the population being affected. If that population is content with being a theocracy, there is little we can do change that, and other that sowing seeds of democracy, we are fools to try to impose our way of thinking on anyone else.

With that said, there is a very real possibility that the population of the Middle East truly wants a different form of governance, but the present form of government is deeply ingrained and rooted in theocratic values. It is virtually impossible to exert external change. We would be fighting any force that tried to do that to us.

To get back to the theme of the thread; anyone who would harm their children receives nothing but my disgust. There is no rational reason for this, and it shows the extremes that religions will go to to keep their faithful in line. Blood sacrifices have been around since mankind first began coming together in societies, it is repulsive and should be seen as such. Only self accepted knowledge will depose such practices as this, and that is indeed, far from the near future in the Middle East.

I weep for the children, for they are just pawns in the hands of the ignorant.

O8)

the female half....but since the other half totally ignores them and practically enslaves them, the "democracy" they achieve, WILL look like the Iranian government when they are done..

The clerics who are in charge will NEVER relinquish their power over the people..

the theocratic monsters that run the country will never relinquish their power, unless they see they are really nothing but a bunch of heretics.

I don't see that happening in the near future, but I certainly hope and pray it does. It takes commitment from those oppressed, as well as support from the rest of us to help these people. What they do is atrocious, and there is no way to rationalize it away.

:cry: for the children and the women, and keep the pressure on for change. Seeds planted will grow, if nurtured.

O8)

scarification? They use razor blades instead of swords to make multiple cuts on their children's faces, scalps, torsos, arms, the purpose being to create raised scars that proclaim the child's identity as a member of the tribe. The cuts are smaller so they bleed less but it has to hurt.

I wouldn't have liked being cut with razor blades or swords as a child but I didn't like getting all the "shots" I had to have as a child, either. It was really difficult to become a parent and enable the "shot"- givers. . . Maybe the Iraqi and African parents view this as necessary pain their children must endure ?

I don't think you are.. I guess I draw the line at mutilation of any child by its parents or elders..

I also realize that rituals come into play, but rituals are usually performed to "replace" the barbaric practices that went before..

Guess I have a different take on what some here have taken from the pictures.. and I can accept that..

As for vaccinations, that's a whole other issue..I am glad that mine are all grown.. the stuff they put in them these days would cause real concern for me :(