Who thinks the US blew up the train in Spain?

specifically , who thinks the ROVE machine created the scenario to take the heat off Bush and the bad press hes been getting, PLUS the fact he hasnt got a goddamn issue to run on except for KEEPING THE US IN TERROR

Already the news whores like Wolf are playing it like a cheap whore.

Rove isn't that stupid.

WAY too much risk with no solid benefit.

didnt do it, does that make us complicit?

anyway. It could be Al Qeada.

Bush is a rat, but not responsible for everything.

Did we blow up our embassies in Africa? Did we blow up the USS Cole?

Have we a figured out a way to blame Bush for those?

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How DARE you impugn Sullivan's gayness just because you disagree with him! Would you refer to Jesse Jackson by the N-word if he took a position contrary to yours? We need REAL progressives on this site, not haters.

to you and others below who expressed similar opinions. I was checking out the Andrew Sullivan site (I check out tons of sites, and sometimes even leave my residence and talk to people who have opinions I don't share), saw the link to this thread and groaned. If I thought conspiracy threads like this were what this site was all about, I wouldn't be here. Also, someone at Free Republic is asking, no doubt enviously, about the emoticons on this thread! :scared: :nuke: :hi: :thumbsup: :wow: :spank: :boring: :hurts: :nopity: :argh: :wtf: :think: :mad: :hippie: :evilgrin: }( :P :toast: :loveya: :headbang: Just a taste, baby. You know you want more. Maybe not everyone has seen this old article on the damage these distracting conspiracy theories can do http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12536 ? There's enough real stuff to focus on. By the way, what do people think: when Limbaugh, Sullivan, or whoever posts these links to our most embarrassing threads, should we flood the threads with terrible articles and information about them?

I'm a suspicious SOB but that's a little out there...

Sorry

I have some teeny tiny doubts about whether they're that evil.

remember Shock and Awe? and they killed over 600 soldiers or more and wounded and maimed thousands for PNAC

Id say YA THEY ARE THAT EVIL.

REMEMBER THEY DID THIS

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

They're banally evil. It would take satanic evil to murder civilians of allies to convince Americans to vote for them in the general election. Stupid satanic evil, on top of that. Why not just murder Americans for that purpose?

But I wouldn't put it past them to try to exploit a tragedy of someone else's making in an effort to keep themselves in power. They've done that over and over. And that is the banality of their evil.

...on 911.

Let's skip the hair-splitting. Evil is evil no matter how you try to dice and slice it.

But don't see a strong enough motive. I could, however, maybe see them planting the Al Qaeda connection after the fact.

FLASH!! Jackpine Rejects First Tinfoil Theory

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/11/spain.blasts/index.html

That didn't take KKKarl long...

RL

it's not like it's difficult to come up with such a thing.

Not enough detail known.

it is convenient for the Bush admin and comes at a time when they are sinking. it has the political effect of making people scared so that they feel compelled to vote for Bush for "protection".

And just what exactly is "Al Queda"? Is it really that well organized and defined?

Is it really just the equivalent of "the struggle" in black america's long struggle for justice? i.e. a generic term?

It crosses my mind as well. I have become such a cynic. Damn.

I don't believe that for a second.

no way.

Honestly, how do you think it will look in the media if someone were to say "Democratic WebSite Thinks US Behind Madrid Bombing"?

Are you trying to damage our party?

surrounding the illegal occupation of Iraq and the illegal war and the mystery surrounding 9/11 and LIHOP and MIHOP..
damage the party? Its time people started asking hard questions about everything that happens, and stop acting like the GOP machine isnt capable, right now, of the worst atrocities imaginable in an election year.

are shameful exercises in collective derangement that embarass this website.

been in a coma the last 3 years? Evidently you're perfectly content with the ever changing popular theory of 911 rather than doing any critical research.

Some people are so bound up with not being a "conspiracy theorist" that they ignore pretty much all of human history.

Had this attitude been prevalent so many things would never have been uncovered:

Watergate
COINTELPRO
Tuskeegee Experiments
Operation Paperclip
MK-ULTRA (CIA mind control program)

more...

All well established historic fact, now.

All ridiculed as wacky "conspiracy theories" at the time.

Maybe that person is right and Watergate just never happened but was the feverish construct of Wacky Conpiracy Theorists.

Feh. I've got little patience for uneducated people such as that person who have little regard for the teachings of history.

is stupid. Believing that anyone other than 19 of Osama bin Laden's henchmen was responsible for 9/11 is infinitely more stupid.

great argument. Kudos to you mobuto, kudos.

Where's the beef, Charlie?

...since you've been harping on the same discredited lines of thought for quite some time now.

I guess we can all play that little game. Who's conspirarcy theory makes more sense, as the White House is going into contortions to prevent an investigation into 9-11??

Islamist terrorists are responsible for 9/11. That's an established fact. This is not debatable.

Even the newspapers say "alleged" mastermind of 911 when they refer to OBL. If you can find me some real evidence about what took place on 911 I will be forever grateful.

When I hear people talk about conspiracy theorist, I think about how much of a stretch it takes to believe the scenario of what we've been told about the events of 911. Now, *that's* a conspiracy theory.

FBI Admits: No Evidence Links 'Hijackers' to 9-11
The possibility that 19 Muslim men accused of being the Sept. 11 hijackers were not, in fact, the hijackers, is not so extraordinary an idea as it might seem.
<http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html>

Excerpt:

"In an April 19 speech delivered to the Common wealth Club in San Francisco, Mueller said that the purported hijackers, in his words, 'left no paper trial.' The FBI director stated flatly:

'In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper—either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere—that mentioned any aspect of the Sept. 11 plot.'"

As with 911

Islamic terrorists were behind 9/11 are "Muslim terrorist conspiracy mongerers"?

:wtf:

This is nonsense. How much Osama himself had part in the planning of 9/11 is somewhat of a mystery to me, and I definetely don't buy this administration's story entirely, but I think there is more than enough evidence to suggest that Islamist extremist terrorists were behind 9/11.

is what is damaging the party.

Some people believe everything they are fed.

I saw you here again! :)

Sometimes I just get riled and have to post!

:loveya:

Glad to read you got a new job!

Jude

most likely to benefit? I see a lot of "No"s but no reasons as to why. These people have proved over and over that they do not intend to give up their plan to take over the world via the bogus 'war on terrorism'

Shit. The media will say it anyway....why do you care about that?

surpassed what I thought they were capable of by quite a large margin. It seems desperate and grasping (just their style!!).

I just am not too sure as to the profit$$ from it....politically, it shows that AlQ could be getting stronger (as the left said it would if we went into Iraq). If it is not AlQ, then it shows that a member of the 'coalition of the willing' cannot control his country.
:shrug:

all it proves is that they can't fight Al-qaeda if it's blamed on that. And if it was a Basque group it doesn't relate to the US directly at all. Where's the gain there?

but it does give the Spanish govt. an opportunity to reign in the Basque region (Spain's most industrialized area) from self-rule and would throw a few roadblocks to independence.

It would also benefit certain shadowy corporate interests.

The Basques had been offered the same kind of autonomous plan the Catalans took in the 80's (Spain had a socialist PM back then), and rejected it outright because they want complete independence - not the Catalonian middle way. It will not happen anytime foreseeably, no matter who is the PM, left, right, or center. I do agree Aznar will use this an excuse to reign 'em in, Ashcroft-style, but the Castilian government won't give up the Basque region any more than the Brits will give the Spanish back Gibraltar - or Northern Ireland back to the Irish, et al, for the indefinite time being.

I noticed the Spanish government was quick to blame the ETA, which reminded me of how quick the US blamed Arabs for Oklahoma City.

My take is that the attacks were Al-Qaeda or sympathizers getting back at Aznar for going along with Bush, and now hundreds of innocent Spaniards and others paid the price. Terrorists are pretty linear in how they plan these things - they are like mob hits on a macro scale. All the complexity goes into the planning, and not why they target who they do.

Edit: typos

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.
The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

THAT was all just a wacky conpiracy theory.

THAT could have never happened, and there is absolutely NOTHING, no documetation to back it up AT ALL. Really. Fox News told me so.

20/20 did't do a story on Operation Northwoods two weeks before 9/11, either. You're smoking Crack.

Besides, don't you know it's Unamerican and wrong not to blindly wave the flag and believe ONLY the OFFICIAL STORY about 9/11? You are neglecting your Patriotic Duty, and I am afraid I am going to have to report you and several other people in this thread to Homeland Security for conspiring against George Bush's America. After all, either you're with the OFFICIAL STORY, or you're with the terrorists.

Also, Bush didn't sit there and read a book for twenty minutes AFTER the second plane hit the Tower on 9/11, endangering not only himself, but the school children he was babbling to.

THAT'S a conspiracy Theory.

Bush didn't run all over the country hiding in Air Force One from Military Base to Military Base like a scared rabbit on 9/11.

THAT was a Conspiracy Theory.

All of the documented research that has led to LEGITIMATE questions about what really happened on 9/11 that has NEVER been addressed is all conspiracy Theories.

The Air Force was NEVER told to Stand Down on 9/11, even though it was clear the country was under attack.

THAT was a conspiracy Theory.

All that talk about Saddaam not being behind 9/11?

A Conspriacy theory.

WMD's? Just give them time to find them. You'll see. All Conspiracy theories otherwise.

Bush NEVER ordered all investigations into Bin Laden to cease shortly before 9/11.

THAT is a conspiracy theory.

Osama's family was NEVER flown out of the country while all flights were gronded.

THAT was a Conspiracy Theory.

Bush has nothing to hide, and all this talk about him stalling the 9/11 commission, and ALL of the secrecy surrounding the administrations knowlege of 9/11 is ALL a Conspiracy Theory.

Don't you get it? ONLY people like mobuto know the truth about 9/11, and ANY theories or speculation, questions or dissent is simply NOT allowed.

You are truly an Ugly American frylock.

There is ONLY one truth about 9/11, and that's the OFFICIAL STORY.

Quit being such a revisionist.

And if you believe anything I just wrote was presented in anything other than the RICHEST form of tongue and cheek sarcasm, then I'll bet you also believe these thugs are going to leave office lawfully and peacefully. :)

Don't worry yourself over people that cannot be reached frylock.

No mater what alternate reality people choose to live in, NOTHING can ever change what the real TRUTH is, whatever that may be. And we should NEVER rest until it is exposed.

TheWatcher

did anyone ever get the full rundown on bali? i did some research, and was really surprised how certain facts about the alleged bombers went away when the story didn't quite fit the official version...look into it if you doubt me, it stank like a fish.

or how about all those shias and sunnis in iraq who keep saying, "we don't want civil war" and yet bombs keep going off...in mosques no less. yeah, i believe that muslims are behind that, not!

there's also chavez, aristide, and a host of other black/brown leaders that most of you have never heard of: what do they say? that is, when the White Media decides to grant them a 1/2 inch or two? rather consistently, they say that the end of the trail of "terror" most often leads to US military/intelligence. school of the americas, anyone??? hint: it's in GA.

folks, don't be so naive. your government is currently run by people who are not nice and have deep, 30+ yr ties to THE WORST terror groups in the world. if you know about our actions around the world, and the number of murderers we support (saddam was once our friend, remember?) you may not be so quick to jump on Mari333.

anytime MB says it can't be, i'm inclined to believe it! ;-)

has this administration or the american english language media told us the whole truth up front once in the last 3 years? hardly!

wicked mouthpiece.

It would just highlight the fact that his war on terror has done NOTHING to actually protect people.

and use it to scare the US public with the idea that it can happen here..another fear tactic..
I dont trust the GOP machine as far as I can spit as to what they are capable of.

There are just over 100 million voters in the US and about a million are watching cable news; mainly senior white men. Turn the damn thing off because I truly believe that it is clouding your perception of what the American people are seeing and hearing.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EJ04Ak01.html
We report, you get it wrong
By Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - The more commercial television news you watch, the more wrong you are likely to be about key elements of the Iraq War and its aftermath, according to a major new study released in Washington on Thursday.

And the more you watch the Rupert Murdoch-owned Fox News channel, in particular, the more likely it is that your perceptions about the war are wrong, adds the report by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA).

Based on several nationwide surveys it conducted with California-based Knowledge Networks since June, as well as the results of other polls, PIPA found that 48 percent of the public believe US troops found evidence of close pre-war links between Iraq and the al-Qaeda terrorist group; 22 percent thought troops found weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq; and 25 percent believed that world public opinion favored Washington's going to war with Iraq. All three are misperceptions.

The report, Misperceptions, the Media and the Iraq War, also found that the more misperceptions held by the respondent, the more likely it was that s/he both supported the war and depended on commercial television for news about it.

The study is likely to stoke a growing public and professional debate over why mainstream news media - especially the broadcast media - were not more skeptical about the Bush administration's pre-war claims, particularly regarding Saddam Hussein's WMD stockpiles and ties with al-Qaeda.
(snip)

Worst failure of any sitting Prez ever and it is spun as his finest hour. See how it works? Scare people with a boogie man so you can "protect them". Like the mob.

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"the fact that his war on terror has done NOTHING to actually protect people". Still apparently the Bush admin gets away with it.

How does it help Bush? It helps perpetuate the war on terror.

I pretty-much hate the bushies, but it is a) stupid and incorrect and b) ridiculous to say they could even think about doing something like this. Posting threads like this makes us look worse than the freepers who think its a great idea to "kill their leaders, take their oil and convert them to christianity"

that has murdered thousands for money, they are capable of anything.
These are evil people in this administration, so evil I dont think anyone should give them a pass on anything.
They are murderers and thieves, liars and killers.

to the extent that there are some people in the US government right now who are truly evil (evil in the sense that their goals are so opposite mine that i see them as against everything good and humane), but to jump to the conclusion that anytime anything bad happens in the world it is the Bushies' fault is paranoid, stupid, and dangerous. While there are evil people in the bush government, maybe i should let you in on a little secret: There are evil people all over the world!!! It makes no logical sense for us to be blowing up our allies, and it does not fit with the pattern very well either. Really, people like you are a conservative blogger's dream!

or to imagine that bad people do bad things and are NOT like you and me.

northwoods, MKUltra, COINTELPRO, mongoose, i can go on and on. but then again, i'm black- i see how people are killed by the government (crooked police) in my hood every day! ha ha, anyone who thinks that the military/intelligence communities (leadership) of the major first world gov'ts are not corrupt to the core are kidding themselves. sorry, wake up and see the horror, and then come back and tell me i'm going to far by being suspicious. start with www.unknownnews.net

i don't know why people have the tendency to blame america for the attacks purpetrated by islamic extremists. It gets tedious. Like the attack would be politically useful in any way. It illustrates to outside viewers that this site is fringe and looney.

believe it or not, Al-qaeda does exist. And there's not much of a gain to Bush from this, barely any short term if any and no long term.

what proof do you have of AQ? from whom did you get it? have you met any members? any arabs? any iraqis? i have, and i'm more skeptical that AQ is a significant threat capable of major operations around the globe.

what about Basque seperatist extremists maybe? The bottom line is there is no evidence or reason for the BFEE to be responsible.

You have met AQ members or arabs or iraqis? or all three?

Don't you know?

We've ALWAYS been at War with East Asia.

Welcome To George W Orwell's House Of Fun.

illegally occupying Iraq as we speak..wheres the outrage about that on the news? the outrage that Al Queda, if thats who attacked this train, is getting WORSE not better because of the Bush policy of pre emptive strikes? NO the news is spinning it to make the US public be more afraid of another attack on US soil..
Bush created MORE terrorists, not less.
and it boils down to the worst terrorists there are: the Bush administration.

and yes, Bush is making the problem far worse, but by going by your logic that he's responsible for all terrorist attacks, that means there's no terrorism problem anyway, circular logic.

Has anybody on these forums? :shrug:
What the hell do you REALLY know about AQ except what is being
spewed from the boob tube? Huh?

Get real.

The fact that you've never met an AQ doesn't mean they don't exist. I've never met a Palestinean either, does that mean the situation is Israel is all a huge media hoax?

Are you also saying Al-qaeda doesn't exist?

and I guess that you believe in the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy
as well... :eyes:

I've never met an astronaught...or the President...or a Swede....


Holy Crap!!!! About 95% of everything doesn't exits!!!!!!!

Am I even here?!


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:crazy:

You can find evidence for anything if you click your red shoes together and say..."there's no theory I can't prove....there's no theory I can't prove..." As for evidence of past conspiracy theories that are now "proved"....what's that list at? 5? 10? Outta how many?

Please...I'd believe in a man on the wing of my plane than I would some of the hairbrained things tha come up at DU from time to time....

But I'll take a serious paper cut defending your right to say them!

Please post it...we'll wait.

other than your hatred for the Bush administration?

you might want to get some fresh air...

just because we hate Bush doesn't mean he's responsible for EVERYTHING that goes wrong.

This time, there was no warning.

This time, AQ took public credit.

Why the discrepancy?

that i haven't seen one show of solidarity and mourning for the almost 200 people murdered by terrorists. It all bush this republicans that. Its dispicable :mad: A lot of people died today.

I think a lot of us express sympathy for the Spanish victims and share the hope that the perpetrators of this horrid crime may be swiftly brought to justice. Today we are all Madrileños.

are preparing their justification for when President Kerry invades Syria.
Admitting US involvement in terror attacks is no longer political ammo for the "pragmatists" who don't give a shit about truth.

What 'truth' are you referring to? Do you have any facts? Do you have any evidence? Neo-DUers? Who made you the arbiter of who is and is not a DUer? Is there anything in your post that could withstand a second of scrutiny?

you have absolutely no evidence that Kerry plans invade Syria, or that the US was involved in this attack. No one is saying that the US has never been involved in terrorist attacks, just that THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT WAS THE CASE HERE.

What you are basically saying is that people who don't automatically blame the US for every terrorist attack think the US can never be responsible.

The US has nothing to admit since the US doesn't blow up Spanish train stations. And I've been a DUer longer than you have, so don't call me neo, Mack.

you have always been consistently pro-war as long as I can remember.
I was referring to the hypocrites who are only against republican wars. I will bookmark this thread to prove my point in a year or so.

Are you suggesting I support wars with everybody? I don't follow.

What does LaRouche say?

The interesting thing about the blame game being played is htat Asnar's party would love to blame the ETA rather than some middle eastern group. The evidence points away from the ETA and the ETA has denied involvement, and yet the Spanish government is trying to blame the ETA anyway.

If it's Basques, it bolsters the Spanish conservative's hardline position. If the attack came from middle easterners, it exposes Asnar's support for Bush's Iraq invasion as folly.

we may fudge up the reports to make it go to our advantage, but I don't think we have the resources or the energy for this type of thing.

We don't know who did it. We cannot believe a single thing that is reported to us. Therefore, we do not know if it was indeed Al Queda or the Basque Separatists.

I sort of was expecting some type of retaliation against Spain though. Remember that exciting meeting between Bush, Blair and Aznar in the Canary Islands--pre Iraq attack? It was a total mouth dropper--no one actually knew what the hell it was called for--it was a huge PR flop. Nevertheless, Aznar was touted as beng on board Bush's war machine. He never really did anything more than host that meeing, but, he did look as though the entire country of Spain was behind the killer Bush. Spain had a huge outpouring of protests against Bush's war, but Bush forced Aznar's hand and for some reason, Aznar went along willingly.

Spain then sent soldiers to Iraq, proudly wearing on their uniforms a badge commemerating Santiago and the defeat of the Moors. http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/spanish/santiago.htm

http://www.red2000.com/spain/santiago/history.html

So, what do people expect?

There they went blithly marching into Iraq wearing this provocative badge. :shrug:

maybe France or England, but probably not SPain

The attacks in Spain were a tragedy for Spain.

But I don't think they were rovian in direction. Think of this... the bushies really don't want to remind the public that their escapade in Iraq completely diverted their efforts per alqeada. It blows the only single campaign theme that they have... trying to sell bush as good on national security. we know better, but much of the public still buys it per 9-11 and alqeada.

They want to keep us reminded with low level fear.. they do not want to invoke something which gets people thinking and putting two and two together (ala: we were going after alqeada.. then stopped to do iraq... then got mired in iraq... meanwhile alqeada reorganized and stepped up efforts... and... oh my goodness the bushies made us LESS safe....)

This attack bolsters the Bushian script that Danger is On Our Doorstep, that without incessant vigilance against TERRORTERRORTERROR our cities would be cratered tomorrow.

And the fact that it happened in the Great Elsewhere, that is, not here, shows that we're safe under Dubya's protective umbrella.

I don't put a lot of stock in the ability of the media-hypnotized masses reaching conclusions that they're not led to.

Not to say that these bombings are BFEE-engineered. However, I'm not one to consider such things way beyond the pale, just unlikely.

just that ever since things started going wrong in Iraq (er... pretty early on)... they have had a thin line to walk. I don't think they will plant WMDs (or they would have already)... in part because even before the war, in the international press their stories were quickly debunked. According to Ritter it would be next to impossible to plant without a trace of having done so... thus the debacle of planting and getting caught... much bigger risk in net harm than potential gain... even though they really need that gain.

I think more and more of the public is getting skeptical of teambush. Their support has greatly frayed around the edge. They want to capitalize on 9-11 - but it is a fine line before it blows up on them. Hence eventually bowing to calls for bush to testify before the commission and even backing off from the "only an hour" statement. They are abutting right up to that space where some folks who may be growing a tiny bit skeptical are starting to grow more skeptical based on his behavior (as in.. well maybe he DOES have something to hide afterall...) Such is the spector around alqeada and attacks. The potential blowback could cost more than the gain.

and I sooo want to embrace it. I pray that you prove to be right, that the public's Bush fatigue finally outpaces Bush's overreach. I'm just a pessimist when it comes to the idea that jihad Republicans will ever be held accountable for their crimes. I've rarely seen it happen in my lifetime.

like something rotten is going on with that plane of mercenaries.

They will just be careful on certain areas of overreach which will turn their assets (eg public perception of bush as good at national security) from turning into complete liabilities. The created the liabilities but have created the wall paper that shows "success!" - but i think they are aware that the gum keeping the paper up is starting to get diluted, cracked and... well... inadhesive.

This morning was domestic terrorism. Think Timothy McVeigh-like homicidal maniacs.

Directly accusing this administration of such acts will immediately
cause a negative backlash against you from BOTH sides of the political
spectrum.
Its a horrendous thought that our "government" could do "such a thing".

Given that we don't know jack sh^t about 9/11 except what the
gov't told us to be "the truth"...what can we deduce from this
attack in Madrid? Or any other attacks that might occur?

Its quite obvious that modern governments, especially of very
powerful nations, cannot and will not EVER be held accountable for
their actions whether directly or indirectly. Thus, even if we make
the accusations and evidence points to their culpability...WHO will
bring them to justice...? Not you, nor I.

We are living in warped times. All the "rules" have been drastically
changed post-9/11 and there's nothing that can be done except
allow the current situation to play out.

You're right, the media whores are playing the government's tune
and will continue to do so. There is no such thing left as
"investigative reporting" anymore. The government states what the
truth is to be and it will be beaten into the sheeple's mind over
and over and over again until it is accepted as "the" truth. Same
thing was done with 9/11, yet notice how now nobody speaks about it.
It was a "done deal"...its thus been "accepted" and that's how its
being printed in the history books.

As for it having been the US... I don't think so. I think it was
more than likely one of its "allies"...a well-known "ally" that
specializes in these sorts of things.

...my ass. If you want to Jew-bait, just say what the hell you mean. God,no matter what kind of idiot wears the "tinfoil hat", right or left-of-spectrum, it always comes back to that world-wide Jewish conspiracy, doesn't it? Go on Amazon and get a copy of the "Protocols" for your next bathroom reading session.

What made you assume Israel is the only US ally to use state terror? Algeria and Pakistan do it too, and IMO would find it easier to throw their operatives to the wolves if caught (See, its an Arab! Al Qaeda!).

That said, I dont think Bush has anything to do with this atrocity. Too much to lose. Al Qaeda is skillful enough and hateful enough to do this themselves without the CIA holding their hands.

Care to elaborate?

Prove you didn't.

Somebody claiming to be AQ Martians?
:eyes:

Heh, Kalian, I just think the claim is outrageous and needs more facts before being considered. And I'm sorry, I have NO reason to believe that our government was involved in this. I do not think it buys them much as I don't think most Americans will be moved by this. If 10000 Iraqi dead cannot move them, then this act won't move them either. Now if they were Americans, that would raise the blood in America.

This is an example of the excess of this forum, IMO. And I usually dig these sorts of subjects, but not this particular one.

the U.S. and didn't involve many Americans means it'll be a minor tragedy to most Americans, hence no gain for Bush & co.

Plus if they were going to plan it, I doubt they'd pick trains. Trains are so exotic to most Americans it lessens the impact further.
Now planes might be another matter.

got any evidence that she didn't?

:eyes:

prove it wasn't.

common logical fallacy at work here. the burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim.

Great material people. They will just love this , talk about yer tinfoilers.

detonators and the store-bought Koran CD and the crusadenets all started their traditional Al Qaeda concerto.

..."President" Bush WILL use the tragedy to revive American's fear of terrorism. His administration is shameless. And, as far as "protecting" us, I think Bush very poorly equipped to deal with any real crisis (as demonstrated by 9/11).

...do.

believe everything.

uninformed, credulous people believe rubbish like MIHOP and that the US murdered 200 people in Spain.

Who did it, and who benefits?

Mari33, you are on it. Hang in there.

How is step-son doing? I wish you were not so far away. I would have you on-stage and speaking out next weekend. 3/20, Crawford, Tx.

Do you know of anyone that you have talked with that would be willing to be at the rally in Crawford and speak out. I'm looking for the Marine that has CjD somewhere in East Texas. He was terribly abused by his superiors and almost slipped through the cracks.

We need you and all the other Moms, Dads, brothers, sisters, wives, etc to show up. If not at our rally, then at a rally near you. If you need $$'s to make it please let me know.

hehe I didnt mean to set off such a firestorm but I hear all the talking heads on TV and the Repubs saying that this is Spains 3/11 and tying it to Al Queda and saying theres a 90 percent chance the US is next and using the old TERRA ALERT crap to scare people so I just wondered how much the US might play a part in this to get the coverage for the "steady Bush presidency and war on TERRA" crap..
I wish I could speak, I would. Wish I could speak somewhere. Ill march tho I promise you that..Kalamazoo is the closest town I can get to. Good luck in Texas !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In fact it smells like a convienent scapegoat to hang all sorts of black ops shit on. Call me tin foil all you want, it won't be the first time, probably not the last. But this whole thing stinks.

I mean, really now, Spanish authorities conviently find an abandoned van with seven detonators and recordings of Koranic verses. Sounds about as convient as the FBI finding a trunkful of plans and verses after 911, or the miraculous survival of one of the hijacker's passports, going through the hell of the WTC collapse, and landing blocks away virtually unscathed. I'm sorry, but most terrorists, most criminals do not leave the tools of their trade simply lying around for anyone to peruse, if for no other reason than monetary.

And then there is the matter of who Al Qaeda is really working for. Supposedly headed by Osama bin Laden, a former CIA contract agent(and what is that old saying, once you're in the CIA, you never get out), it is funded by, among others, a large Saudi family with close ties to the Bushes(also "former" CIA). In fact the Bushes and bin Ladens have been in bed together for decades now, investing in each others business, doing deals together, being socially, businessly, and politically intimate to the point of appearing incestous at times. I mean really now, who was on that lone civilian plane allowed out of the US on 9/12/01? That's right, members of the bin Laden family.

And then there is the matter of Israeli intelligence setting up false front al Quaeda cells in order to provide an excuse to crack down on the Palestinians. <snip>"The Palestinian Authority arrested a group of collaborators who confessed they were working for Israel, posing as al-Qaeda operatives in the Palestinian territories," said the official, on condition of anonymity. He said the alleged collaborators sought to "discredit the Palestinian people, justify every Israeli crime and provide reasons to carry out a new (military) aggression in the Gaza Strip." <snip> <http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/24546_comment.php >

It is also interesting to note that this is not the only time Israeli intelligence has set up a terrorist organization. Hamas(now frequently cited as a running partner with al Qaeda) was originally set up by Israel as a way to dilute the influence of the PLO in the late seventies.<http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r > Fun and games, fun and games, who's working for whom, who cares? In the world of global black ops and intelligence activities, your friend today is your enemy tomorrow, with everybody getting together for a round of drinks at the end of the week.

So the most important question in this whole mess is WHY? Why would the CIA(or Mossad for that matter) wish to blow up trains in Spain? Well, it is now starting to rumble around about the Saudi links to al Qaeda, how deep they go, how far into the royal family, and the country at large these ties are. And it is all a PNAC crusader's wet dream. For if you can connect al Qaeda to horrible, ongoing terrorism, and in turn, connect al Qaeda to Saudia Arabia, then you have a wonderful excuse to invade Saudia Arabia. Not only will the PNACers get more control of the precious ME oil(a needed conquest in this day of peak oil), but it's also a great twofer for the PNACers fundy shock troops. You conquer the Muslim high holy sites in Saudi Arabia! And after all, wasn't it George Bush, among others in this administration, calling this ME misadventure a "crusade"?

This also works as a setup punch if our PNACer friends decide to pull some stunt this fall. If you will remember how the term "martial law" was bandied around after 911, this could be quite chilling. Think of it now, Bush is headed for a defeat none of his BBV and vote scrubbing tactics can cover. Wouldn't it be handy to have another terrorist attack to hang martial law on? Boom, no elections, no protests, problem solved.

These are ruthless people we're talking about. Operations of this scale have been performed for years in other countries, Guatemala, Niguragua, El Salvador, Chile, Greece, Laos, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Haiti, Cuba, the list is endless. Now, I feel, they're just bringing it all back home. Is it a coincedence that all of the major players in this mummers play all have some serious intelligence ties to one major agency or another? Isn't it the least bit odd that these various pieces of seriously incriminating evidence keeps getting left at the nearby scene of these attacks? Questions, questions, yet the American public blithely sleeps on.

So flame me if you wish, but remember, this wouldn't be the first time we've heard of possible terrorist attacks around the world that were traced back to various intelligence agencies. The Nazis did this with the Reichstag fire, the US did it with Operation Northwoods. There has been over forty years in the interim for the spy guys to perfect their act. We might just be seeing the opening curtain on the upcoming showstopper. Be aware, be warned, and be open to the possiblity.

too bad that many people don't see it that way.

I agree with you. :toast:

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot believe how easily the people of this country are PLAYED LIKE A FIDDLE. Sure, there is no evidence that the US was behind this, but there is something that some are failing to consider, as they incredibly do every time.

Things like this have become too Obvious, and it is time that EVERYONE become a little more wary and observant, and stop being so quick to swallow every "Official Story" that is force fed you every day.

Everytime, EVERYTIME this administration has been on the ropes or is in severe trouble, SOMETHING happens, SOMEWHERE around the Globe, or SOMETHING is manufactured that allows them to play the Fear Card, The Terror Card, The BOOGEYMAN Card, the ONLY card they have. It is so BLATANTLY obvious it makes me sick.

Back during the Christmas "Terror Scare" I maintained that the whole thing was Bullshit and that NOTHING was going to happen, that it was nothing more than State Sponsored Propaganda, and it WAS. And the incident in France made them look incredibly foolish lending even MORE credibility to that assessment. THERE WAS NO TERROR THREAT FOLKS. NONE. NADA. ZERO.

And now we have this. The Winds Of Black Death? Give me a break. As they have so many times in the past since 9/11, especially with the whole Duct Tape Debacle, they PLAYED THIS COUNTRY LIKE A FIDDLE. They have done so whenever they need to, and always at the UTMOST convenience when it is needed most.

After all the scandals, all the secrecy, all of the lies that led us to attack a defenseless country, Black Box Voting, Enron, The Energy Papers, The Stalling of the 9/11 Comission, The Politicization of 9/11, and ALL of the criminal ghastly things these people have done, as well as all of the EVIDENCE, the OVERWHELMING evidence that has mounted against this criminal administration and made everything they have done while in office make Watergate look like CHEATING ON A MATH TEST, I do not believe the official story of ANYTHING right now. Now bear in mind that I am not going to sit here and accuse our government of carrying this out, but to blindly swallow the OFFICIAL STORY of ANYTHING after all we have seen from this administration is RIDICULOUS. You MUST be willing to be more objective and not take everything at face value.

These people are out of control, and have been for three years. They have run roughshod over The Constitution, Cilvil Liberties, International Law, and every moral and ethical standard you can think of. They have shown they are willing to LIE to go to WAR and kill tens of thousands of people needlessly. They have shown that our OWN SOLDIERS LIVES MEAN NOTHING TO THEM in the pursuit of PNAC or whatever sick agenda they have. They have shown the willingness to topple any DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT on the planet at their whim, without fear of accountability or reprisals. They have shown the willingess to STEAL AN ELECTION, and we have PROOF that they have the technology in place to do it again if they so choose. They have shown COMPLETE contempt for any law, and have shown willingess to subvert ANY law or regulation to get what they want, in effect declaring themselves ABOVE any such laws. They have shown willingness to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to silence ANY dissent or questioning of their methods and policies.

So I ask all of you here, today. HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH HERE? These people DO NOT play. They DO NOT mess around. They have been running free like drunken frat boys on a pnaty raid for three years, and they think NO ONE can stop them or anything they wish to do. If they have shown the willingess to to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to stay in power, if they are as desperate to stay in power as they appear to be, the question is simple.

WHY WOULDN'T THEY?

If they have the technology and ability to steal the election WHY WOULDN'T THEY?

If they have shown the willingness in the past to do ANYTHING to stay in power WHY WOULDN'T THEY?

WHY WON'T THEY?

Never forget who you are dealing with here. Some want to live in an alternate reality and pretend that the crimes of this administration and the things they have done are just a bad dream, but it doesn't change the Truth. People like TruthIsAll have been doing a yeowman's job of trying to wake people up to this reality, but it seems some wish to stay asleep no matter what.

The reality is this.

Whether you like it or not, THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO LEAVE POWER LAWFULLY AND PEACEFULLY. They ARE going to try something desperate. They ARE going to try to steal the election. They ARE going to pull something in October. They ARE going to play dirty, and NO it would not surprise me to see a State Of Emergency declared with The Constitution Suspended and the Elections Suspended.

It is DIFFERENT this time folks. Even if you don't think any of this will happen, we NEED to be prepared for it if it does, because to misunderestimate THESE people is simply too dangerous. They are too desperate, and they are too power hungry. To ignore them and what they are capable of is to put our very way of life and this 227 year experiment in peril.

Be Prepared.

You can bet DAMN sure THEY are.

It's not :tinfoilhat: to recognize the CIA and other nations' intelligence agencies for what they are. The documentation is out there, we know what these guys have done in the past. I think it would be a tad naive to deny that these people are, indeed, not only capable of carrying out horrific operations, they have an undeniable history of it.

I have no idea whether the CIA was involved in today's bombings, but it's not a possibility I would automatically rule out.

It could all very much be on the up and up. Al Qaeda terrorists, with no outside help, committed a horrible heartwrenching act of terrorism. As such, they should be hunted down and punished.

But looking at our past, both here and abroad, we have seen a pattern of increasing violent interference into various societies by one intelligence agency or another. By that sheer simple fact alone, the possiblity of this being more than what meets the public eye should go up. It is painful to live in a cynical world. What is even more painful is having your depth of cynicism surpassed by events unfolding in the world.

But no matter what the circumstances behind this foul deed, our hearts should go out to our Spanish brothers and sisters in their time of need, as theirs did to us on 911. And we should bring those who are guilty to justice, no matter where that path of justice leads.

"I have no idea whether the CIA was involved in today's bombings, but it's not a possibility I would automatically rule out."

The mutual financial and nationalistic interests that bind our intelligence services leave them pitifully corrupt, permeable, and blind as a molerat. The hypothesis that the CIA is somehow faking its own incompetence while pulling all of al qaeda's strings is pretty difficult to support. The story isn't the CIA's all encompassing control of hearts and minds, but their history of propping up "the lesser of two evils" until they have to neutralize their own creation, a la Saddam, Mobutu, Duvalier, Noriega, now bin Laden.

http://www.nightmare.org/textfiles/conspiracy/italy.txt
GLADIO: THE SECRET U.S. WAR TO SUBVERT ITALIAN DEMOCRACY

by Arthur E. Rowse
(snip)
In 1968, the Americans started formal commando training for the gladiators at the clandestine Sardinian NATO base.
Within a few years, 4,000 graduates had been placed in strategic posts. At least 139 arms caches, including some at
carabinieri barracks, were at their disposal. *29 To induce young men to join such a risky venture, the CIA paid high
salaries and promised that if they were killed, their children would be educated at U.S. expense. *30

Tensions began to reach critical mass that same year. While dissidents took to the streets all over the world, in Italy,
takeovers of universities and strikes for higher wages and pensions were overshadowed by a series of bloody political
crimes. The number of terrorist acts reached 147 in 1968, rising to 398 the next year, and to an incredible peak of 2,498
in 1978 before tapering off, largely because of a new law encouraging informers ( penitenti ). *31 Until 1974, the
indiscriminate bombers of the right constituted the main force behind political violence.

The first major explosion occurred in 1969 in Milan's Piazza Fontana; it killed 18 people and injured 90. In this and
numerous other massacres, anarchists proved handy scapegoats for fascist provocateurs seeking to blame the left.
Responding to a phone tip after the Milan massacre, police arrested 150 alleged anarchists and even put some on trial.
But two years later, new evidence led to the indictment of several neofascists and SID officers. Three innocent
anarchists were convicted, but later absolved, while those responsible for the attack emerged unpunished by Italian
justice. *32

Conclusive Gladio links to political violence were found after a plane exploded in flight near Venice in November 1973.
Venetian judge Carlo Mastelloni determined that the Argo-16 aircraft was used to shuttle trainees and munitions
between the U.S. base in Sardinia and Gladio sites in northeast Italy.33 The apogee of right-wing terror came in 1974
with two massacres. One, a bombing at an antifascist rally in Brescia, killed eight and injured 102. The other was an
explosion on the Italicus train near Bologna, killing 12 and wounding 105. At this point, President Giovanni Leone, with
little exaggeration, summed up the situation: With 10,000 armed civilians running around, as usual, I'm president of
shit. *34

At Brescia, the initial call to police also blamed anarchists, but the malefactor later turned out to be a secret agent in
the Parallel SID. *35 A similar connection was also alleged in the Italicus case. Two fascists who were eventually
convicted were members of a clandestine police group called the Black Dragons, according to the left-wing paper, Lotta
Continua. *36 Their sentences were also overturned. Although in these and other cases, many leftists were arrested
and tried, fascists or neofascists were often the culprits, in league with Gladio groups and the Italian secret services.
Reflecting the degree to which these forces controlled the government through the Parallel SID, nearly all the rightists
implicated in these atrocities were later freed.
(snip)

and used it as a tool to scream about terror alerts in the US and Al Queda attacking us..keep the people here afraid, and keep Bush in office etc

and we all predicted he might allow an attack to occur to create martial law...
and then no elections.
Thats why Im wary of the whole thing.

Also, there is that little thing called evidence.

But look at the operations that have been carried out that we do have evidence for. Operation Mongoose, Iran Contra, the Tuskeegee Institute, COINTELPRO, the CIAs use of various drugs on unsuspecting innocents, Watergate, the assasination of JFK. That's just a partial list of domestic operations that were carried out. I won't go into the foreigns right now, not enough time. If you want though, go google the countries I just named, followed by CIA, and I sure you will find plenty of evidence.

Exactly nine hundred and eleven days from 9/11/01 to 3/11/04.

Hmmm, let's see, who would be into this kind of macabre numerology?

Other than those frisky skull and bones frat boy types that is.

The rest of the world puts the day, then the month: 11/09/01, 11/03/04.
911 days doesn't mean anything to others.

It's actually been 912 days. Leap year this year.

Spanish conservative party would not benefit from this because the attacks would show that Bush should have finished the war in Afghanistan before invading Iraq and because Spain was one of our few allies and went against the wishes of the Spanish people in support of the Iraq war, the Spanish people will deem their Prime Minister foolish and will vote for the socialist party.

I don't buy that argument at all. In most peoples minds alQaeda,Iraq and indeed all muslim nations have morphed,with the help of the Bush regime and the media,into one giant boogey man..the mideast.

This attack will keep the fear of alQaeda fresh. We keep talking about Rove and the BFEE pulling something in October. Apparently, the alQaeda letter supposedly sent to a muslim newspaper today,talks about an OCTOBER attack in the U.S.

MadHound, you talk about martial law..we have this attack in Spain apparently being blamed on alqaeda, the stage is set for an October surprise and voila...no elections or something so horrendous that just as America is finally awakening from it's 9-11 fear induced coma, another event even more horrific unfolds.

People won't analyze,research or think..they will only react and will be led in any direction by those in charge..

We don't know if the CIA or other intelligent agencies have set this up,but,with the coup in Haiti, the attempted coup in the Congo,and the attempted coup and now recount in Venezuelia, and with the CIA's past history in Vietnam and South America, it would not be all that unbelievable to me.

A New World Order will not come without risks,expense and many deaths.

however, I feel deep down in my gut that you are absolutely right.

But having my deep cynicism passed time and again by the depravity of actual events just doesn't give me much hope. Thus, I continue to prepare for the worst, but pray for the best.

...she told me about it, and said that they suspect Al Quaeda behind it, was, oh you think? I think the Bush* cabal was behind it. He and the president (is it president?) of Spain are good buddies.

The CIA with other intelligence organizations. It was planned like 9/11 was. Wolf is so fucking detestable. He's worse than Sean Hannity because he is slanted as hell but gives the impression that his show is objective.

shaking my head

they will still be here after Bush is gone. Clinton didn't cause the Cole to be bombed or the first World Trade Center bombing either.

How Bush responds to the whole thing is the problem.

Bush did. He also fired the first shot at Wounded Knee, and killed Davey Crockett after he surrendered at the Alamo.

It is one thing to overthrow the elected president of Haiti, but it is something different to attack the citizens of an ally. Remember how people were convinced that they would plant weapons in Iraq? Granted they could still do so but to do it would require the cooperation Americans.

I have trouble believing that the average American grunts on the ground, who would be called on to plan, plot, and carry out such a mission, would attack the citizens of Spain.

bad buzz lady

And there are many links on this page to support the assertion:

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-11-04/discussion.cgi.28.html

Al Qaeda exists, of course it does. But what is it? And whose interests does it ultimately serve?

thread a while ago.

My assertion is just as supported by the facts as yours, which is to say, not at all.

You just made that crap up. Al Qaeda has nothing to do with US Intelligence. I checked your link, to your little message board, and its absurd.

Zaccarius Moussaoui, for instance, was a CIA operative in Chechnya? ROTLFMAO. The link you have shows he was IN Chechnya, not that he had anything to withe Central Intelligence. There is not one single shred of evidence to support your contentions, you just make it up as you go along, adding things like "CIA operative" as editorial commentary, hoping nobody will notice.

Do you really believe this shit? Honestly?

links and thousands of posts on it right here, if you want to search it. You can read all about the proxy war in Afghanistan in the 80s, UnoCal, Agent bin Laden, Pappa Bush, the whole sordid tale.

Or you can just hold a candle and chant "evildoers who hate freedom."

It's a comfort level thing, you do what's best for you.

Posted this on another thread, but it's was quite utilitarian, enjoy

The people on the other side of the globe are watching the spin



This is quite Humorous just on the face of it. (I wonder if anybody at STARS and STRIPES is feeling jilted )

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FC13Ak02.html
Iraq: Washington spinning out of control
By Ritt Goldstein
(snip) (near the bottom)
After the Zarqawi/al-Qaeda bombshell, the conference moved on quickly until a journalist noted: "That's the first time I've heard characterized as top al-Qaeda leadership. He's always been characterized to me as a freelancer, as tied to al-Qaeda, as a part of Ansar al Islam, but never directly in the top 10-15 of al-Qaeda." Trapped, Rodriguez replied: "Well, the - that's - you're probably right. When I said that I probably didn't say that exactly correctly, okay?"

The Pentagon has explained the need for a news service of its own as emanating from "increasingly combative" media that fail to "get out the message".

Both the general and DiRita subsequently pursued obscuring the revealed misinformation under a broader, al-Qaeda-related smokescreen.?But the episode does serve extremely well again to illustrate the tactics being employed at the highest US levels. And it also shows why the Pentagon's DVIDS news service is attempting to distribute news stories directly to the media, bypassing potentially embarrassing journalistic queries.

DVIDS stands for Digital Video and Imagery Distribution System, and it was created to target smaller and mid-size media outlets that can't afford their own correspondent in Iraq or Afghanistan, the two areas coverage is planned to focus upon. DVIDS was acknowledged as created to place "positive" stories, and minimize the impact of "catastrophic events" - in effect, to propagandize.

While the future of DVIDS isn't yet completely clear, Mac McKerral, president of the Society of Professional Journalists, has been quoted as observing: "This is the kind of news that people get in countries where the government controls the media."
(snip)

....during the Afghan-Soviet War? Yes or no?

And since Al Qaeda is Osama's organization, isn't it reasonable to believe that Al Qaeda was, and may still be, an asset of some part of American intelligence? Yes or no?

I'm personally betting on a link between the NeoCons and Al Qaeda...because both sides get what they want. The NeoCons got the Iraqi oilfields and Al Qaeda has a global presence never before seen in a terrorist organization.

My, my...you sure did get agitated on this topic, didn't you?

Nice link, thanks!

it crossed my mind. how wonderful to be able to have these thoughts about one's own government....

First of all, that is the utmost in paranoia and secondly, they would have NOTHING to gain from it.

Rove was behind it. Why? He's really evil. Does he gain anything from it? no, but he's evil.

Saddam supported terrorism. Why? He was really evil. Did he gain anything from it? no, but he's evil.

The Spanish PM is a close political ally with an election to win; one which he now seems likely to win handily, gaining enough seats in the process to avoid power-sharing. And anyway, no one *really* important got hurt... :mad:

but I understand your concern.

The current group of lying duplicitous thugs running the show are I think capable of far far more than even skeptical and cynical DUers would think.

The history of BFEE is truly nasty.

Doubters check this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1221187

http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/gladio.htm

Isn't the actual angle here that the ETA must be crushed? Who's going to give a shit who actually did this? It's a perfect opening to expand the terror war against designated dissenters and seperatists anywhere they happen to be.

Yes it led the news, but unless more happens we'll be quickly back to the trivial.

I think this attack may be Al Qaida. And I think we'll see another attack here in US soon. Imagine if they set off backpack bombs here - the populace would be freaked.

I've wondered for awhile why Al Qaida didn't do the terrorist style attacks like what happens in Israel. I don't think we would be as able to go about our normal business as Israelis do. If they did those kind of attacks here I think they could tie this country up in knots.

I'm LIHOP on 9-11 and this PNAC bunch but not MIHOP.

always messin with Earthlings. Go away damn you!

It would be SO UNLIKE this adminstration to bomb hundreds of innocent civilians for their own personal gain!

Oh wait....

Let's see what we know so far:
1) We know BushCo loves killing. 2 wars don't happen by accident.

2) We know BushCo loves killing foreigners. So what if they're innocent? That never stopped them before.

3) We know that BushCo is evil. What on earth would make them turn down an idea like this if it was suggested. They don't have a conscience!


People should stop imagining that neo-conservatives are kind, thoughtful people like us. They're not. The Republikkkan destroys and must destroy because he completely lacks the conception of an activity which builds up the life of the community.

n/t

there's a lot of harsh rhetoric we use, and rightly so

but we shouldn't politicize politics except to call the right on their misuse of tragedy.

coming just before an election where the pro-Iraq war candidate is in trouble... :tinfoilhat:

Really gruesome information here, a letter from Spain to a discussiongroup, regarding the real culprits:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=45810


These bastards are really obsessed with symbols and magic numbers (remember it was 911 days since 9/11), look here:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/13_33_freemason_sig.htm

but I'll admit to wondering what's been going on in Spain that would make it politically advantageous. But it wasn't my first thought upon hearing the news - more like the second, right after "How horrible."

Motive:

Keep the spotlight on terrorism. Without terrorists acts *somewhere*, there's little to be afraid of. Now Bush can say "See, terrorist attacks still occur against peaceful countries like Spain". And, here's the punch line: "I, President Bush, am keeping you safe, because the terrorists had to attack a country whose anti-terrorism measures are weak. Ours are too strong to be a target anymore".

Opportunity:

When you have the resources of the Bush Cabal, Haliburton, etc., opportunity is everywhere. It's really just a matter of political timing.

Means:

No question the Bush Cabal has the means.

----

Now, do I think the CIA would have been directly involved -- nah. Do I think Haliburton could have been directly involved -- yes. It may have been just goading on an terrorist group and providing explosives, but I have no doubt that respect of human life is far, far down on their list. Power and profit is the first thing on their list, just take a look at Iraq, and the dismal support granted to our own military, for evidence of the priorities.

or someone seriously mentally ill.

thank god for the ignore button!

It was al queso. This is a war to fracture the goodwill of the
people. The explosives are either detonated at ground zero in
iraq or along fault lines between peoples. A second tier fringe
european state with a population against a war and a president for
one, where mustlims once fought wars with christians long ago,
on the doorstep of europe. Similarly the turkish bombing on another
of the doorsteps to europe. These symbolic gestures are along the
ideaological fault lines of a coalition to break it apart. Chances
are that alqueda has already predicted the responses for the next
forseeable years, with ground zero being whatever civil war america
is meddling in today.

It's like when the Mafia leaves the horse's head at the foot of your bed. Aznar had the same look on his face that Tony did on the day of the attack in Turkey. They both had that look that they know they been royally fucked and can't do a damn thing about it. Not unless they want to be spending the rest of their days living at the Hague.

Plus W needed another attack real bad right now, I'm sure Jose won't really mind.

Now that Al-Qaeda's taking credit, this attack is just making Assnar look like an idiot for supporting Bush's war on Iraq.

Let's not give Andy Sullivan any more ammunition.

than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

have a thread up now about Kerry's wife financing the 9/11 families. That story has been totally shot down. Most of the Freepers probably read it on Newsmax or some other web site for kooks. They all believe it.

If Newsmax runs a story that Hillary Clinton was behind the attacks the Freepers would all believe that too.

Who are they to talk about us?

You people are as scary as the Vince Foster was murdered crowd.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

that wasn't a poor forgery picked up on right away.

it is very hard to FAKE wmd evidence... remeber the anthrax was traced right back to US not to mention those FAKE intercepted missles with wmd mispelled on the label wish i had a picture of that.

oh... and guess who paid for and authorized those deaths in your cartoon, US again.

so it certainly isn't out side the moral realm of possibility with these thugs running the show to imagine they should be put on the list of possible suspects if we were playing detecitve ;->

and so it goes...


welcome to DU :hi:

peace

Get. Real. Real. Soon.

...maybe you should take your own advice.

The US needs to keep the terror angle flowing so they must have done it.

and apparantly the majority of voters in Spain have had enough.

This has the aspect of highly suspicious timing as Paul Wellstone's demise. Too bad we can't tell shit when we smell it.

Nothing but mihop.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

How is that DUers can say Rove blew it with those 9-11 ads one week, and then masterminded this horrible attack the next? Much as I hate Rove, he had NOTHING TO DO with this. It was a revenge attack on Spain for helping the U.S. in Iraq, and not ROVE pulling strings. He is a two-bit hustler and a punk, and people on here overestimate him.

Jesus fucking christ, tinfoilers make us all look like nuts and flakes. There is no difference between RW flakes and LW ones. None.

Putting aside the terrorism stuff...I believe the best theory is the most plausible given the current environoment...

Bomb threat prompts check of French rail network
many cites...here's one
http://tinyurl.com/3d9ls
FT as well as a couple of other have pointed out that the extortion threat was LEAKED...the French gov't didn't want to go public as it would have screwed up their investigation, negotiations with the group calling itself AZF (named after a French chem plant that had an big accident).

From this article:
On Tuesday, the government urged French and international media not to report the extortion attempt after rumors of it began to circulate. The government said it was trying to protect efforts to establish contacts with the group.

But the Interior Ministry released details Wednesday after newspapers leaked the story.

Investigators have communicated with the group via a special phone line and newspaper classified ads, officials said. After a contact on Monday failed, investigators ran an ad in the newspaper Liberation on Wednesday that read, "My big wolf, didn't see your blue scarf. Give me a sign. Suzy."

Do you see where I am going with this????

Perhaps the Spanish were also dealing with an extortion attempt and just didn't
1) take it seriously
2) pissed off the group
3) too busy with elections

This seems to be far more realistic than the usual 'terrorist' theories...

The terror group "speaks of 10 bombs," Remy said. "We're inspecting the tracks to see if there are others still there."

There WERE 10 bombs detonated in Spain

Some Questions not being asked by the Press:

How many bombs were there in Spain?

What kind of bomb were used in Spain and do they compare with the ones found with the French?

Given that the 'group' responsible has taken a name suggesting it is an 'direct action' extreme Earth First outfit, was the action in Spain linked to the oil spill and the Spanish government's criminal and incompetant dealings?

Just a thought and far more reasonable an assumption than ETA or al queda

But it's an interesting question.

Given what we know (& don't know, still) about 9/11, I can see why people would wonder.

This idea predictably jumps to the wildest allegation. How about the obvious?

At a significant date, add that to the anniversary of the Iraq War coming up- NO special security alerts. Poised again(yet again) to take advantage of possible, even likely, attacks, but not to prevent or respond selflessly.

When Spain was hit in timely fashion they must have sucked in their collective breaths and hoped the Right could profit from it. Unfortunately Euro security is not all Bush shills, nor the media, nor the wide awake anti-war masses.

OTHER coups have been going at a wild pace these past weeks with more on the horizon. Silence mainly from the admin except when things don't go exactly as they want.

I don't know about planning or compromised Intel but for sure it is the old game of It Will Happen, Be Ready to Take Advantage. Anyone who has signed on with Bush is fully cognizant of the required posture(besides proximity of the lips to Bush's derriere).

As to the degree and instrumentality of "conspiratorial" activity, you can imagine anything you want. The deadly truth is that- even subconsciously- they want to get hit, want to go slow on prevention and security, want to be ready to react in ways profitable to them politically and financially.

It is the game board they see themselves on, not a first priority of rescuing citizens or getting rid of the security problem.

When we ever, ever get access to prosecutorial process then we can start asking for a full account.

When you start spreading wild accusations(in the hope they will get get embedded in the populace- and they do) you are playing the same sick spin game, not coercing anything out of the bad guys except giving them cover of yet another distraction. What of the CIA being dragged in to all the dirty coups? Sure it is consistent with past behavior in perhaps more benign administrations but it sure digs them in deeper after the WMD controversy nearly split them apart. These are deeper and more obvious issues, the shape of the cloud that we see, not trying to imagine what's inside the cloud.

Let's keep the not so clever dream theories in perspective. The worst thing that has not changed since 911 is the WH practically welcoming a terror display to increase their power, and not being very enthusiastic about the substance of "Homeland Security" any one than NCLB or going to Mars or promoting democracy in the world.
In this miasma LIHOP does not even have to an active policy or decision. The "P" in purpose is all the Bush Coup agenda and the Oligarch/PNAC revision of history to which it is allied.