Has rape become part of custodial punishment?

I've read disturbing views on DU of people who feel, almost
unconsciously that rape is part of prison, and that anyone who
goes to prison should be raped. This has degenerated to the point
of serious social sickness, that the institutions of "justice"
actually stand for, in some cases, more heinous crimes, than the
justice system is incarcerating for.

We claim cutting off hands is cruel and unusual and rebuke the
nations that use this practice, yet we endorse rape instead. Have
you noticed this endemic acceptance of felony crime as "normal"
in what your taxes pay for?

Do you think its funny to say Bush should be sent to prison for
life to be raped by cellmate named spike?

I think a lot of people here watched too many episodes of Oz.

In Maximum Security, which is where most of these guys would end up...you are alone in your cell 23 hours a day. I guess you could rape yourself...

It's everything else where prisoner mingle. I don't claim to know how to fix it, but we should try.

..that you read a book called "The Sixteenth Round," by Rubin Carter. In it, he documents what life inside of a state prison is actually like. As a retired forensic psychiatric social worker who tends to avoid reading or watching fiction, I can say for certain that rape is as much a control factor in maximum security facilities as it is in any other penal institution. Of course, that's just my opinion, but it is based on decades of work, not tv or comics.

probably has some advantage in defending himself.

on that subject

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/

It is rather serious.

In my personal experience. Under reported in the official stats for sure. Commonplace is a fact in the states where I have experience.
Max Security can mean many things. Most are not isolated "23 hours a day" except for punitive (yes ironic) periods. Whole prisons are "Max Security". Overcrowding has led to many situations where people are in "the wrong" placement anyway, either belong under more supervision or are non violent but the spot that day is only in a more secure facility. Check out some of the Quaker sites about their prison outreach for some unbiased, balanced insight. Sorry don't have the links at hand now but will check.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

actually, nothingshocksmeanymore has posted a lot of information about male rape victims in some threads last summer...in response to some of the callousness here regarding rape victims, in general.
as the the liberalness of certain stances...i suppose we all have our opinions about that :hi:

Some of it is just, IMHO, a method of expressing outrage that has become not only accepted, but applauded in our society. If you don't wish suffering a thousand times worse on the offender than what s/he perpetrated, then you obviously hate the victim.

Then again, there are DUers who revel in dehumanizing other human beings, exhorting all kinds of cruel and inhumane treatment, all the while patting themselves on the back for being a "superior" human specimen while acting just as sociopathically as the person they are denouncing.

I say, hate the crime, not the criminal. Everybody is salvagable and rehabilitation should be the aim of every incarceration.

Oh, and bring back conjugal visits!

But we shouldn't give people sentences that include rape as part of the deal if we can avoid it.

The attempt should be made, nevertheless.

Mass murderers, folks like Charles Manson, etc. They should be warehoused and kept in prison till the day they die. How much we facilitate that last part depends on the case.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

But it's pretty damn bad right now. Because of the stupid ass war on drugs, we have minor offenders housed with serious criminals. The net result is never good.

As for the last, your personal attack was too pathetic to even warrant an alert. You aimed for wit and got it half right.

"you aimed for wit and got it half right"? -- I'm writing that down (and you're right about the war on drugs, as well)

Wading through the sanctimony of your posts is quite difficult, but what you really need to remember is that there are people that choose to do crime - not because of poverty, past abuse, or "society." They choose to rape children and kill human beings, because they like it. It's fun to them. And, unlike the people that joke on DU, their fun is real.

Remember that the perpetrator of a crime infringes upon the dignity and rights of the victim. Remember that the victim always has the right to be free from the control exerted by the perpetrator.

Criminals are sometimes victims. It's not mutually exclusive, but there are human beings that will never choose to be "treated" - whether by harsh prison standards or by any kind of therapy.

What should happen next? Whether they are sent to therapeutic group homes or work studies or even prison work gangs doesn't change the fact that they are being controlled. And that they choose to be controlled, because they choose to violate others.

Rape is not a joke. Prison rape is disgusting and the authorities have an obligation to protect prisoners from torture. However, only someone that is very naive would suggest that loving the criminal is going to solve anything. I've met quite a few seriously pathological criminals. They would eat your arrogant message, play your love therapy game, and then go on to rape another child.

Who've harmed nobody, rather their real crime is being on the other
side of the pharmaceutical lobby.

Disagreeing with a pharmaceutical company is a felony, treated by
rape and incarceration to destroy lives. If prison was just full
of real criminals, i'd feel more comfortable with what you say.

People care more about dogs than they do the plight of human beings
in prison.

But because of the fact that we are all sad and weakly human, we are in no position to determine that GROUPS of people are not. I am a bit uneasy with those who believe they have the ability to decide what individuals are not salvageable. Humanity is not sitting on a fence, my friends, where some groups will survive and prosper, and other groups will wilt and die. We are more closely related than you may recognize.

He quite omnisciently bestows and revokes humanity based on some perverted value system I can't even begin to fathom.

Must never have heard the words "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Let's look at that subgroup for a second. Recidivism is extremely high and, when they get out, they go and molest more children.

As long as they remain a threat, and they always do, they should not be let out.

Okay, Muddleoftheroad! I like it. Now, in chess, you would probably have called out "check mate!" Right? 'Cause only a FOOL would stick up for child molesters. Okay, true story: rural, upstate NY in the late 1990s. A 17 year old boy gets a "blow job" from a 15 year old girl, who admitted she initiated the said incident. Though he had no history of violent crime, only a couple minor pot-related offenses, he got a 14 years-plus sentence, which is commonly called a life sentence in this state. See, he was black, and she was white. So he was a convicted sex offender who posed a threat to children. It took two years to get the sentence "corrected" in appelate court. I am curious: should he still be in jail? I'm glad I helped get him out.

I talk about child molestors and you bring out the straw man of something else entirely. Dang you are good at debate.

Now, depending on laws in the area, yes a 17-year-old is violating the law by having sex with a 15-year-old. No matter what age limits we set, there will always be a few borderline cases. The rest though are situations where adults are molesting kids. That's what I was referring to.

You have a source for this claim?

The whole thing makes some rather informed reading because it addresses many issues:

Conversely, Prentky, Lee, Knight, and Cerce (1997) found that over a 25-year period, child molesters had higher rates of reoffense than rapists. In this study, recidivism was operationalized as a failure rate and calculated as the proportion of individuals who were rearrested using survival analysis (which takes into account the amount of time each offender has been at risk in the community). Results show that over longer periods of time, child molesters have a higher failure rate—thus, a higher rate of rearrest—than rapists (52 percent versus 39 percent over 25 years).

http://www.csom.org/pubs/recidsexof.html

When you factor in the issues that the articles goes into about charges often not being filed, the prospect of EVER letting convicted child molestors out of prison is scary indeed.

Re-arrest is not recidivism or even re-offense.

Furthermore, the web page you link to cites other studies, some of which have found the recidivism rate to be 13%. I'm not defending any behavior, but when it comes to discussing recidivism, people should check the facts and apply a little critical thinking before asserting the hyperbolic yet unsubstantiated rhetoric that recidivism is "very high." There's little proof that it is.

It also cites reasons why sex crimes are underreported.

And do you think even 13% is an acceptable level of recidivism? Are you aware of how many victims ONE child molestor can harm?

Even if the number is 13%, that is high enough to keep child molestors jailed forever.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Lots of people on Democratic Underground say things about such-and-such bad person going to prison and meeting "Bubba", their new and compulsory lover. Many long-time posters say things like this.

And although I can't vouch for the original poster, she may well have been referring to non-violent drug crimes that are punished with a prison sentence and the attendant rape.

Also, it's heinous, not heidous.

And while you're busy with personal attacks, you may wish to add a comma between the words "meds" and "crack". The attack will look less amateurish if you fix that little problem.

I didn't intend to make a personal attack, I was just very offended that this person generalized that DUr's condoned prison rape. If society would take rape seriously and our court systems would justly punish offenders for raping any gender (and animal), then I think we wouldn't have such a dismissive view of rape. Take the Coby Bryant trail, why does the alleged victim get death treats on her life because she spoke up? Bryant admitted to committing adultery, although adultery isn't a crime, I think it shows a lot about his lack of character. But with societies views and punishment regarding rape being as lackadaisical as they are, I don't see this view as changing. I take great offense that anyone would make a comment that anyone is deserving of the crime of rape as punishment or for any reason for that matter.
Again, my post was harsh and uncalled for, not a typical post of mine, just a touchy subject for me. Not because I've been a victim of that crime, but because I think any crime that dehumanizes and humiliates a human being is "heinous" and sorry, hideous. My original word was what I meant, although both fit the description.

You should apologize to me, if you're going along the approach of
apologizing for unwarranted personal insults.
I've never done crack... i've read human rights watch's material
and supported their work for years.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/

I've read several posts over my 4000+ post career on DU regarding
prison rape, always as a joke, never really serious... but pent
up in that humour was the point i make in this thread.

What is it about the human psychology that when exposed to the
normality of a crime long enough, that we shrug it off.

I agree that rape is treated too lightly culturally, even in our
justice system, a rapist is inclined to do less time than a drugs
user... that says something to you about republican law, eh?

No worries, mate, i've taken my meds... :-)

peace,

There was no need for me to attack you personally and I have no excuse for it. Maybe I should look into the meds thing. Again, please accept my apology.

I credit you for bringing up an important topic.

I like you. Your sweetheart will take a punch from you anytime.
Sometimes that is love.

Keep up the catfight and speak your mind with fervor. :-)

I'll keep up the fighting but I'll curb my enthusiasm in regards to the aspersions.

I'm sure if you took an individual or general poll, you'd find the overwhelming majority of DUers condemn prison rape. However, as with most of US society, many feel powerless to do anything about it. And I find it extremely hard to believe that someone could come into DU and say something to the extent of, 'everyone who goes to prison should be raped,' and not get their butt handed back to them.

Meanwhile, we sit and watch Ken Lay, still running free. And again maybe feel powerless.

So, what happens when the two collide? Someone makes a wisecrack, or a professed wish.

Self-defense mechanisms are highly under-rated.

I'd also like to think that no one on DU ever said "Take your meds crack head", but there you are.

my anger got the best of me, it's inexcusable.

It is the corrupt bastards like Bush who keep the prisons cruel and depressingly unusual - so for people to wish Bush to be a victim of it (in jest)IS funny.

Spike is a funny name for someone to be the perpetrator in such an imaginary scenario

NOBODY here supports the actual abuse of prisoners and I agree that no one should permit our prisons to be cesspools of shame and degradation or think that such a situation is funny in reality.

Very few people jere probably actually want for Bush to experience what happened to Abner Louima, even if Spike were cute and gentle.

Have a sense of humor.

The point is many people think Bush is a criminal who deserves prison for lying and treason. He deserves the injustices which the reich wing have created in the prisons the same as everyone else.

But mostly this is just ironic wit with a bitter twist.

At least no one here is saying he deserves the same as what is happening to our troops in Iraq.

I haven't even thought about what should be Bu$h's retribution, but now that you brought it up, personally, I'd like him to serve in Iraq, without a bullet proof vest. Then I'd like him to spend the rest of his life combing the deserts of Iraq for WMD, he can bring all his cronies with him, and for all I care, he can rot away in the desert. Let God save him from the elements, it seems fair. A president who stole an election, exiled in the land he destroyed for personal gain. That seems like justice to me.

have earned something special by his murderous ways, and i accept
the ironic metaphor...

That said, i believe in human rights for all people and do not
endorse being taxed to support rape. The metaphor has become
culturally common, and this IS disturbing. What injustice is
perpatrated in our "correction" facilities.

when I see DUers joke about prison rape.

"I don't object to having been incarcerated for committing a crime. But I don't think it was right that I was made a gift to another inmate."

Steve JB's story really opened my eyes to this issue.

http://www.counterpunch.org/steve08012003.html

if I were to suggest that Condoleezza Rice deserves prison, AND should be raped by guards, I'd be attacked here, and rightfully so.

Unfortunately, advocating prison rape of males is acceptable, even on a "liberal" messageboard. Sad.

For more information on the subject, check out http://www.spr.org/


People will find that it's a very serious problem.

I made a comment along those lines about Karl Rove this morning. I also prefaced it with the acknowledgement that wanting that was bad for my karma.

The simple fact is I don't wish that...even on him. Despite that fact that he's an asshole. And depsite the fact that he was mean to me personally.

I wouldn't wish a prison rape on anyone. I work in the juvenile prison system in Texas. I know exactly how bad a problem prison rape can be and how hard it is to keep prisoners safe from it.

I was trying to be funny and mean at the same time and knowing that it upset someone upsets me and I apologize.

the word "spike" was the cellmate in the post i read, and i can't
find it on search... no confession necessary... i've been walking
around today with this very subtle upset about that... only insomuch
as rape is a really ugly act, more so than any drugs usage, IMO, and
it sickens me that it has become so common as to be accepted.

We should be vigilant about the human rights of *ALL* people.
Otherwise our collective claim of being liberal is rather thin.

Peace,
-s

Something about a society is judged by how well it treats its poor, or prisoners? I'm sure someone here will remember it. I strive for the day every human soul is treated with dignity and a right to exist as any other soul.

looking for is from a former prisoner/philosopher from the Soviet Empire. (I like one from Gandhi: "To see the universal and all-pervading Spirit of Truth face to face, one must be able to love the meanest of creation as oneself." He was serious about this.) Interestingly, in light of your attention to the Russian's quote, is that the USA has actually taken numerous pages from the USSR on prisons: in his 1958 "The Society of Captives," Princeton U's G.M. Sykes wrote,"Centers of opposition in the inmate population - in the form of men recognized as leaders by fellow prisoners - can be neutralized through the use of solitary confinement or exile to other state institutions. Just as the Deep South served as a dumping-ground for particularly troublesome slaves before the Civil War, so too can the mental hospitals serve as a dumping ground for maximum security prisons." Part of the horror of these "hospitals" is to expose inmates to an increased risk of being rape. Believe it.

http://www.spr.org

The Stop Prisoner Rape project claims that ten percent of all male prisoners have been raped while in prison.

Are we endorsing prison rape? No, that would be fairly fucked up to suggest someone deserves to be raped in prison. Not even Bush deserves to be raped in prison.

(If they give him the sentence I think he deserves, he won't get raped in prison; when you're on death row you don't have a cellmate.)

Considering the great things he has done for the classes less than he is in, if they send him to jail and the jail puts him in general population, he'll either be raped or murdered. I'm not looking forward to either possibility; I want him to meet the same end the 173 people he spent fifteen minutes apiece on received.

I actually do support the death penalty for a small set of crimes..
and the ones that bush has committed against the constitution would
fit that definition quite accurately.

I don't want him raped on the way to the gallows. It would
bring him sympathy he does not deserve.

For the Bushman, lethal injection with not quite enough thiopental would be good.

Just like he did to all of those people in Texas.

Delores Boatwright remembers when her grandson, Wayne, confided on the phone that he was afraid of some of the older men in prison with him, afraid that he would "lose his manhood."

The 17-year-old Boatwright asked to be put in protective custody, a locked, solitary cell, where he stayed from mid-October until Dec. 15. He signed himself out because he didn't want to spend Christmas Day, his 18th birthday, alone, his grandmother said. About two months later, on the night of Feb. 21, he was raped and strangled, apparently by adult inmates.

Arrendale Warden Tony Turpin telephoned family members personally the next morning. But Boatwright Sr. wishes he'd been called immediately.

"I would have wanted to be at my son's side that night," he said, "even if he was already gone." Boatwright Sr., who visited Arrendale most weekends, said his son had been getting along pretty well at the adult prison from the time he arrived in March 2003 — about two months after his 17th birthday. Last fall, however, Boatwright received a disciplinary report for breaking a window and was to be moved to a dormitory for inmates exhibiting behavioral problems.
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/0304/28juveniledeath.html

Fuckers

in any way! Have Americans become decidedly more mean spirited, with even some folks at DU being no exception?

even if it's Bush.

of their punishment, is endemic in our savage bloodlusted society. It is so widely accepted (you hear references to this quite frequently in entertainment, comedians, radio hosts etc. joking about how someone is going to become some bubba's "girlfriend" when they go to jail etc.) that its filtering through to some folks here is just a symptom of the society at large.

Our society is not very humane. Hence the worship of capital punishment etc.

Inmates steal from one another, and they assault each other. Some of the inmates even use illegal drugs. It's true.

I think the point of the Stop Prison Rape projects is that the problem is at least in part institutional, and requires some significant level of indifference from institutional players, indifference which is not helped by the jokes and general blase attitude about the existence of tax-payer funded torture in the United States of America.

Will it be possible to eliminate this sort of thing completely? No. No more than it is possible to eliminate rape generally from society. Is it possible to crackdown on it, and do everything in the power of the government and corrections institutions and general culture to spell out its horror? Yes, just as we do with rape more generally.

I could wire a prison that not a single space, closet or nook was not
in video camera surveillance. Rape would be on camera in my
surveillance prison. Were i a prisoner, i'd rather know that i
had no privacy in the prison, than to fear being raped, getting HIV,
being beaten up, and whatever else.

It is not rocket science to end this problem, and video and audio
surveillance should be employed to preserve human rights. You well
describe it as "torture", something we claim to deplore. It strikes
me that given this, what crime warrants torture? I bet those boys
on guantanamo don't have to worry about that stuff... we reserve
the really foul republican torture for our own disenfranchised.

It's funny the apathy toward this issue in liberal circles among those opposed to capital punishment.

With widespread HIV and TB and hepatitis in the prison system,pretty much any sentence can be a death sentence these days.

But at least it's only happening to me who are disposable. Once they'r in prison, their earning potential is pretty much over anyway so why not throw them all on the garbage heap?

who are busted and destroyed by prison, i empathize tremendously.
(as in truth, most people who smoke have cooperatively bought at
one time or another which in legal parlance is "dealing")

Cannabis is nothing compared to the sick illness that would turn
a drugs user in to a raped beaten jobless member of the garbage
heap. What a judgemental, and shallow culture that cannot see
towards correcting this injustice... as on release, that sickness
affects us all.