The coming four sorrows of empire

The following is excerpted from Chalmers Johnson's incredible work, The Sorrows of Empire, page 285:

Roman imperial sorrows mounted up over hundreds of years. Ours are likely to arrive with the speed of FedEx. If present trends continue, four sorrows, it seems to me, are certain to be visited on the United States. Their cumulative impact guarantees that the United States will cease to bear any resemblance to the country once outlined in our Constitution. First, there will be a state of perpetual war, leading to more terrorism against Americans wherever they may be and a growing reliance on weapons of mass destruction among smaller nations as they try to ward off the imperial juggernaut. Second, there will be a loss of democracy and constitutional rights as the presidency fully eclipses Congress and is itself transformed from an "executive branch" of government into something more like a Pentagonized presidency. Third, an already well-shredded principle of truthfulness will increasingly be replaced by a system of propaganda, disinformation, and glorification of war, power, and the military legions. Lastly, there will be bankruptcy, as we pour our economic resources into ever more grandiose military projects and short-change the education, health and safety of our fellow citizens....

Please note that Johnson is explicit that such trends are continuous under either Republican or Democratic governmental control, and exist in differences only of degrees. Therefore, while evicting the usurper and electing Kerry will provide a short-term fix, it will far from accomplish stopping these four sorrows from coming to fruition.

Please discuss your thoughts on this. Also, I would highly recommend this book to EVERYONE out there in DU-land. It is a sober and cognitive analysis which is much, much more valuable than anything written by "pundits" or "insiders" that serve primarily as a "rally the troops" cry.

The obvious question is, well What do you propose. I haven't read the book, and so can't comment on how convincing the arguments are (although the little bit you presented is not entirely convincing to me). But, assuming I buy into the idea that this is our future, what does Mr. Johnson propose we do about it?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

It would involve the people of the United States rising up, taking back control of their governmental institutions by essentially kicking every last sitting member out of Congress, and then setting about dismantling the Pentagon and National Security Apparatus (which both control our country much more than most people realize) brick-by-brick until there is nothing left but a cleared-out foundation upon which to rebuild a system that is truly answerable to the people.

Aside from that, the four sorrows are pretty much inevitable as our spirit of militarism and accompanying imperialism take even greater hold over our society. It's not a very optimistic outlook -- in fact, it's one that could be said to make Noam Chomsky look like a ray of sunshine.

My advice is to read this man's book. He's not some starry-eyed leftist. He actually did analyst work for the CIA during the 1960's and was extremely supportive of US actions throughout the Cold War.

But history has lots and lots of examples of this type of revolution ending up with something worse and not too many examples of this type of revolution ending up with soething better.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

On that end, I'd highly suggest you read Social Power and Political Freedom by Gene Sharp.

We have certain preconceived (and false) notions about the way in which power operates, and how it can be undermined, that greatly minimize our options in confronting it. This book goes a long way toward debunking many of those preconceived notions through both historical example and political theory. It also helps provide possible plans of action and strategies, as well.

BTW, Gene Sharp is widely recognized as the "father" of what is now called "Peace Studies".

And I agree that Kerry may only slow it down and not change fundamental direction. I should emphasize "may" because we haven't seen him in the WH yet.

(will vote for him nonetheless...Smirk is an incompetent head of empire and will speed up our destruction, whereas Kerry presumably will be more competent and certainly less of an ideologue)

But I am not certain that this is something that just one man -- even as the President -- could really do anything about. But that doesn't diminish the necessity of evicting the extremism of the usurper -- because Kerry would most certainly be more measured than this current gang.

The real necessity for overhauling this problem lies not in the Presidency, but in Congress. For it is through Congress that the MIC receives its largesse -- and through the Presidency that the material results of said largesse are exercised. Such a house-cleaning would undoubtedly require a complete sweeping of the Congressional stables, since the overwhelming majority of sitting Democrats are just as complicit as Republicans in perpetuating this twisted system.

since congresscritters get votes by bringing home pentagon bacon. I saw a map that someone posted a while back, and the jobs and wealth distributed by the MIC helps keep their congresscritters in line.

I'm not sure that anything short of a revolution will change the direction we are headed. A long slow dive off a tall cliff.

This phenomenon is laid bare in William Greider's excellent book, Fortress America.

Another highly-suggested read.

local monthly Dem. meeting this past Saturday! I haven't read his book, but will now. He spoke for 1 hour and took questions for nearly 2 hours. It was an amazing morning.....

You are right, he is not optimistic about our future no matter who wins the election. He recommended we read Richard Clarke's book, although he said he didn't agree with everything Clarke says. He does agree that taking the fight to Iraq was wrong and that we are in a quagmire there because the consequences of leaving immediately, or staying are great.

Johnson said that Brent Scocroft advised Bush I not to go into Iraq and get rid of Saddam.

I realize that this thread isn't about Richard Clarke, but I thought there might be room for a few other discussions on the boards today. :D

:kick:

:kick:

because this time it's deliberate. Rome became overextended financially because they were pouring money into the military whereas we are pouring it into the MIC, which is simply a parasite in military disguise.

Bush is floating the trial balloon that health insurance, retirement and education will soon become the responsibility of the individual. The social safety net is being shredded along with the Constitution and this suits the PNACers ends beautifully.

Roman imperial sorrows mounted up over hundreds of years. Ours are likely to arrive with the speed of FedEx.

Actually, the shredding of the social safety net is probably more of a bone to the social and political conservatives, more than an aim of the neocons.

For the neocons, it's more of just a side effect with which they are little concerned. But it does help to cement their alliance with other factions in the Republican party.

will likely result in the third-worldization of the US. Methinks in the end many of those social "conservatives" will be much worse off than those they look down upon currently.

corruption, will only slow down the approach of Totalitarian Tyranny.

While I don't find it acceptable, I do find it palatable to the alternative

:evilgrin:

It pains me to say such things, tom_paine, because it may lend the impression that I somehow am opposed to Kerry's candidacy. Nothing could be further from the truth, because I recognize the context in which it occurs, and that the primary imperative is to evict the current totalitarian thugs from the WH.

But I also recognize the limitations of a Kerry presidency based on those realities, and cannot help but feel underwhelmed about the prospects of any serious reform -- even if he genuinely wants to pursue such reform. That is not a knock against Kerry, rather just a realization of the realities in which we find ourselves.

But I will be ecsatic if Bushevik Totalitarian Orwellian Full-Blown Tyranny holds off until after I have shuffled off the mortal coil.

Of coursde, if Bushevik Totalitarian Orwellian Full-Blown Tyranny comes, I have a feeling that VERY few of us Free Americans will live a whole lot longer.

"If present trends continue, four sorrows, it seems to me, are certain to be visited on the United States. Their cumulative impact guarantees that the United States will cease to bear any resemblance to the country once outlined in our Constitution. First, there will be a state of perpetual war, leading to more terrorism against Americans wherever they may be and a growing reliance on weapons of mass destruction among smaller nations as they try to ward off the imperial juggernaut. Second, there will be a loss of democracy and constitutional rights as the presidency fully eclipses Congress and is itself transformed from an "executive branch" of government into something more like a Pentagonized presidency. Third, an already well-shredded principle of truthfulness will increasingly be replaced by a system of propaganda, disinformation, and glorification of war, power, and the military legions. Lastly, there will be bankruptcy, as we pour our economic resources into ever more grandiose military projects and short-change the education, health and safety of our fellow citizens...."

I truly believe that our great country is going down. These are frightening times indeed.

Because we could all be wrong about this.

n/t

But I think we're pretty damn sure of ourselves about today.

Thats enough reason for me to resist and agitate.

Thanks for keeping this kicked up or I might have missed it. Also thanks for reading my mind--you had mentioned some of these books in another thread that I'd lost track of and I wanted to look into them further.

As far as what you've quoted from "Sorrows," I'd say we have the first three right now and are well on our way into the forth.

What IS keeping the US economy afloat? How do you rate this quote: "Our entire economy. . . is now a house of cards built on an international treasury-bill standard that forces the rest of the world to give loans to the U.S. that it never intends to pay back. Control of the world's peaking energy supply is absolutely essential for the U.S. state to maintain its economic arm-lock on China and Europe to enforce their continued complicity in this international extortion racket." This is my understanding of why, besides the oil itself, we invaded Iraq.

There is much more here that needs to be said but, to be honest, I feel overwhelmed by the enormity of the task before us. This is not only a political problem or an economic problem--it is, ultimately, a CONSCIOUSNESS or SPIRITUAL problem. That is, a problem of, awareness, sensitivity, perception and insight. Unfortunately this can not be DIRECTLY addressed by either politics OR economics.

In my opinion, whatever social forms change is going to take, it needs to emerge from peoples all around the planet ACTING IN CONCERT and COMMUNICATING with one another OUTSIDE ESTABLISHED DIPLOMATIC SYSTEMS.

I started a thread on 3/20 quoting US Astronaut Russell Sweickart that illustrates the kind of 'revolution in consciousness' I am thinking of:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1257672

This is not only a political problem or an economic problem--it is, ultimately, a CONSCIOUSNESS or SPIRITUAL problem. That is, a problem of, awareness, sensitivity, perception and insight. Unfortunately this can not be DIRECTLY addressed by either politics OR economics.

Recently, a book I read (it's KILLING me trying to remember which one) had a quote from a pro-democracy and fair trade activist from the Philippines, in which he answered a question about what two things the United States could do to help the rest of the world. His answer consisted of two quick points:
1. Engage the world in a true spirit of cooperation and partnership.
2. Get back in touch with your spirituality.

As much as many on the left don't like to address this, it DOES boil down to a basic issue of spirituality -- at least in the sense of where we gain our morality, whether we be devout Christians, Muslims, Jews or whatever; or even if we are atheist humanists.

I'll have to check out your thread later, when I have a little more time to look at it.

1. Engage the world in a true spirit of cooperation and partnership.
2. Get back in touch with your spirituality.

It is unfortunate that the United States of America has NOT lived up to its full potential and responsibility to the world. Had we done so none of us would be in the predicament we are now: Situated on the precipice of a political and economic abyss that may take the world into utter darkness. Please read the quote in the thread--I think you'll appreciate it very much.

It is also unfortunate that all we have to work with are these words. Don't get me wrong, words are very important things but they are problematic because, for the most part (great poetry and song aside) they primarily address only one aspect of the total self. Things can get very complicated very quickly.

I hesitate to even USE the word "spirituality" because it has so many associations in the mind that are NOT what I mean to say. And yet, what other word do we have to speak of ways of being, knowing and understanding that surpass our ordinary states of consciousness? As confused as I can quickly get talking about politics and economics, this is nothing compared to the confusion that can set in when I try to speak with any exactness about these "higher" states of consciousness. It is as if everything has to be put into quotation marks and underscored that what is meant may not be what one thinks is meant.

This is coming from someone who is essentially a "nature mystic" (for lack of a better description). That is, from early age I have had spontaneous "spiritual" experiences, primarily in natural settings, which showed me several things which I absolutely believe to be REAL:

1) The way human beings have made the social world is not the way that world has to be. In other words, there is nothing fundamentally "real" about the way things are, sociologically speaking. They are as they are because people have structured them that way in their minds. THEREFORE, this construct CAN BE CHANGED.

2) The process of change requires a kind of EXPERIENCE that fundamentally alters what one finds INTERESTING. If my attention is constantly being drawn out of myself toward the world around me, then little or any of that energy of attention remains for a concentrated self-investigation. In this mode of total external orientation, I am VULNERABLE TO MANIPULATION. Note my sig-line: "Whoever controls your perception of reality controls you." That is, for the most part each of us behaves in what we PERCEIVE to be our own best interest. Whoever controls that perception, controls us--or at least can influence us significantly. We will base our decisions on what we believe to be true. However, there is the real possibility of another QUALITY of attention or consciousness--one in which my self awareness takes an encompassing role: I am aware of myself as a total BEING and aware of the various forces of energy that are manifesting in and through me. THAT is a "higher" state of consciousness.

I'll stop.

upon our nation in the not-too-distant future unless we dramatically change our reckless fiscal policies and imperialistic ways is not a 100% guarantee, IMHO, but a 99.99% probability sounds about right.

against americans wherever they may be and a growing reliance on weapons of mass destruction among smaller nations as they try to ward off the imperial juggernaut."

our foreign policy is directly related to terrorist attacks against the us. the people of spain got it right, and fortunately for them they have enough "democracy" left in their political system to make that change. it is no surprise that the main stream media in the us paints the spanish people as cowards and terrorist appeasers. if the american people began to wake up and equate our foreign policy with the terrorist attacks, there would be the beginning of a nation wide shake-up. in a talk brzezinski (carter's nsa) gave recently outlining his new book, he said one of the major threats to us hegemony was "the global political awakening." this is what jhonson is referring to also. so it can happen, it will happen, and is already begging to happen. the question is, will it be in time to avoid the four sorrows described above?

good thread all

Johnson had an article in Harper's a while back, but I don't remember if it was an excerpt. Sounds like a necessary read.