What are your thoughts on Christianity?

When I was little, I felt that I needed to believe in something beyond myself. What moved me toward Christianity was part love part fear. The idea of a loving God and the fear of eternal damnation. I grew older, and in High School, I started attending this evangelical church. It seemed nice and friendly. THere are many there, that I still hold in high regard. Eventually though, I started paying attention to the things that I disagree with them on. THe problem is that there was no place or forum for debate on some of these things without getting rebuked. Furthermore, I was turned off by the hypocrisy. I went to church a lot from 1997 until 2000. During this time, Clinton was almost constantly denegrated for the Lewinsky affair. They said that Economically things had never been so good, morally things had never been so bad. Mainly saying things had to suck for morality to be good. Eventually, things like saying women had to submit to men and gays are sinners and one should not listen to secular music and predestination turned me off. I started seeing the hypocrisy. In 2000, when Bush was running for President and he talked about how great a christian he was, I knew he was full of shit. He is the epitome of bad christians. It is people like him that have turned me off completely. I believe that there are good christians out there and I do not fault the religion, but human arrogance for thinking that we have the monopoly on right is what taints it, if not destroys it. I could only imagine how Jesus would react. I don't imagine that there are too many people who Jesus would be happy with. THe only one I think he would be would be someone like the Dahli Lama and maybe a select few others. But he would be apeshit over Bush and most churches, especiall the evangelical/fundamentalist ones.

who believes in "orthodox" christian theology. that means that Jesus was sinless, died for the sins of the world and rose from the dead.

Furthermore, I believe that means that we have to take his teachings seriously, and that means looking out for the least and weakest among us.

That's why I am a democrat.

....that the Republicans think that they have the monopoly on what is morally correct. Yet they do not look out for their fellow man like Jesus said to do.

Islam = death.
"We love death, you love life"

Tell me how Christians are blowing people up in the name of their religion. WHERE?!?!!

Christianity is a building with many rooms. Some traditions are constantly inquiring how the church can serve God and each other in a changing world. Some traditions haven't moved much in 50 or 60 years, some in centuries.

You can't tar all believers with the same brush. It is like saying all Muslims are ready to strap on some C4 and walk over to the bus stop. There are many mainstream believers who are struggling with their faith, their personal walk with God and are too busy to worry about who is sleeping with whome.

than what simply IS. I wouldn't mind such thinking if it wasn't CONSTANTLY thrown in my face.

I don't like it very much.

Same with Islam and Judaism.

all religions?

Just curious, how many Jews or Muslims do you know personally?

for reasons similar to those elucidated by Gore Vidal in his essay "Monotheism and its Discontents," available here:

http://staff.dstc.edu.au/lawley/essays/monotheism.html


I know loads of Christians, Jews, and Muslims personally. Some are very nice. It's not the people I dislike, rather it is their primitive superstitions.

I don't imagine you are going to win a whole lot of points with Jews referring to their religion/culture/race as primitive or superstitious.

Christian/Jewish/Muslim friends know you hold their beliefs in so much contempt?

Or do you normally just keep your feelings that they are all primitives to yourself?

I'm not trying to start anything here, I'm just wondering how you get through your day surrounded by so many primordial fools?

Do you feel in any way superior to those who hold on to such ancient erroneous beliefs? Do you pity those who cling to these outmoded traditions and customs?

I'm interested in how this effects your dealings in everyday life.

I don't advertise my views so much with my Christian Family/Friends. My Islamic friends really don't care.

I'm out of this discussion. I'm very comfortable with my atheism. Take Occam's razor to the problem, and all of these imaginary "God" playmates go away.

I didn't come to DU to discuss this crap. Bye bye.

I have LOTS and LOTS of jewish and muslims friends - more so than christian - they ALL know I'm an atheist and that I think their beliefs are throwback myths, some try to convince me otherwise (as I try to convince them of MY view) some are ALSO atheists (though think of themselves as athest jews or atheist muslims because culture is as much a part of their lives as the average atheist from Christian backgrounds) and some we agree to disagree and not talk about it.

THEY manage to "get through" their day despite MY beliefs and I get through mine despite theirs...pretty simple really

It truly separates the extreme left from the extreme right...

It's contra-superstition.

Jesus is an imaginary playmate.
God is an imaginary playmate.
Jehovah is an imaginary playmate.
Allah is an imaginary playmate.

About any of the above.

Just because you don't believe doesn't make it false.

However, the contempt you and others here show for religion only strengthens our enemies.

and belief in nonsense is the enemy.

bye bye.

You are lucky he still believes in you.

;)

just who ARE your enemies?

is correct.


and yes..... I do let my 'christian' friends know the way I feel.

I tire of being told that I am going to hell because I dont beleive the way they do.

I tire of the presbytarians gong to hell because they dont beleive what the catholics beleive and they dont beleive what the methodists beleive and.....

dont even get me started on evangelical and the baptists....



mq


w/p



markq_99......yahoo i/d

Are Primative and If I take the root of that word then we do have a problem. Billions of christians throughout history are mere idiots. Jimmy Carter, Al Gore (Baptist), Rene Descartes, all are nit wits? We dance around like monkeys lost in this world of Scholors who are pretty much the "Howard Cosels" of this world. Why is it so primative to follow a path of what is good and what is ethical.

What the scholars fail to tell you is that God gives us the freedom of though the ability to reason. As Dr. King Says "you can't see gravity", but the laws of gravity tell us its there. He also goes on to say you can't see your thoughts, but they are there. Why, because you just know. I think it is ironic that DU'ers say christians have a closed mind, but It is the So-called scholars that approach religion in general with a closed mind. Christians are the original free thinkers. The first christians refused to accept the Status-Quo and follow down a new path. (and they paid with thier lives. Book of acts) My friend, you are free to choose your own path. Have a good day.

And many prominent Christians of the past (i.e. Isaac Newton) lived during periods when non-belief or criticism of the Church could mean torture or even death. I'd bet that many of those "Christians" were really skeptics but too afraid to admit it. Just look at what your good Christian brothers did to Thomas Paine when he dared to criticize your religion.

...the Native Americans and countless others with torture and attempted genocide, throughout history.

I wouldn't want to belong to any "club" or group that was associated with that.

....I share a lot of your sentiments. But you have to understand, it is evil people who do it. Not all christians are evil.

And does anyone else find it ironic how African-Americans like Muddle are so quick to defend the religion that was foisted on their people by slavemasters?

Christianity's origins are from Africa, Iraq, Israel, Jordan and the rest of the middle eastern countries.

In Acts Chapter 8 verses 26-40. It talks about how Philip preached the gospel to an Ethiopian eunuch, servant of the queen of Ethiopia.

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

I'm Catholic and think the Chrurch should 'just shut up' (to quote O'Really) on matters of state. I'm very angry that the Archbishop of Boston is inserting himself in the gay marriage imbroglio, and think he should concern himself with matters of the soul.

I don't mind people practicing religion, as long as they KEEP IT TO THEMSELVES.

of life, full of caring, concern and tolerance for others - to bad its never been tried.

but a lot of folks seem into religion "for themselves".

I am not against any one religion. Religions have a very
positive force on societies. However, they get abused and
lose their meaning because many people are just too obtuse
and ignorant to figure out what their chosen prophet was really
trying to tell them.

If you really think about it, Jesus was a liberal hippie pacifist
healer. He went around in rags, lived in communal situations,
defied the rich and monied interests, healed, turned the other
cheek, and fed the poor.

If that not a liberal hippie ideal, I don't know what else is.

However, he and his message was driven asunder in many corners
of the world by the abusers of the church and the abusers
of his message. People's lust for power, control, and
domination clouded their minds.

Republicans are just abusing the power of the church to garner
more votes and the church has abused its own power by trying
to sway people at the ballot box. We forget that America was born
when it threw off the chains of a theocracy and King George III.
The mechanism for our lax senses is called social amnesia.
Unfortunately, there a lot of people you just can't reason with.

I would even go farther and say, "Jesus may have been a great philospher/teacher who tried to lead his people away from the jealously insane god of the Old Testament and Koran. Too bad he failed.

Today most so-called Christians still totally rely on the old Testament, which makes them little more than very confused Jews who, while proclaiming Jesus as their savior, cling to the nutty god of the old testament and blatantly discard the teachings of their proclaimed savior.

Yet, other than the New Testament, we don't really know much about Jesus. After all, the New Testament was written some 40 years after his death. All we have are the dead sea scrolls which indicate that Jesus was a teacher from a small isolated group. Those writings indicate Jesus was married to Mary. It also seems Jesus wanted his church to be lead by Mary, and not by Peter.

Regardless of all of that, Peter's Catholic church and it's splinter groups, as well as the Koran and it's splinter groups, seem so totally irrational in their "black and white, good and evil," view of the world/universe that none of them have any place in the lives of those of us makiing an attempt to live balanced and ethical lives. Therefore religion/irrational beliefs have no place in any government.
Charles Munn

"Jesus may have been a great philospher/teacher who tried to lead his people away from the jealously insane god of the Old Testament and Koran"

how could jesus lead anyone away from the Koran???? sorry bbbear, time to go back to theology class

I broke free. I live by ration and reason now, xtians seem to have abandoned it. Most forms of religion are based on fear, brainwashing, and indoctrination from youth/peer-pressure.

I have a number of quotes and sources, you can check them out at your leisure. Here are some sites I frequent.

http://exchristian.net/

http://www.religionisbullshit.com/index.php

http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/flood.htm

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html

http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Sciacademy/riggins/things.htm

http://www.jcnot4me.com/

Just a sampling but they have TONS of information if you're openminded.

No text really needed.

I'm a Catholic and now associate the term "Christian" with fundie. It's too bad.

the word Christian gives me the chills...Robertson, Falwell and all the rest of the zealots. I'm a Catholic, that's enough for me.

Much beauty in it. Love, peace, charity, forgiving others, loving your enemies. Can't get enough of that. Don't get enough of that.

what they think of Christianity . . .

the Archbishop is marching with the intolerant bigots against gay marriage, while the Church has a lot of house cleaning of its own to do.

No other groups ever have criminals in their midst.

No police officers ever commit crime. And all politicians are legit.

Geez.

No other groups ever have criminals in their midst.

Of course they do. The thing is that when the criminals are discovered they are "excommunicated" from the group and punished for their criminal behavior.

Neither do these other groups have "membership expectations" that fly in the face of all we know about normal human behavior. If the Catholics are going to require that their priests are celibate, they stand more likely to attract those who are a bit off-center one way or another in the first place.

If they so wish.

There is nothing wrong with celibacy. There IS something wrong with priests who take that vow (much like taking any other vow) and then dishonor it.

Your bringing up criminal cops was a good example. Often (not always), other cops and the establishment will help hide a criminal cop's crimes to protect the image of their institution.

The same thing happened with the Catholic church. Instead of turning known pedophiles over to the police, or at least removing them positions of contact with and authority over children, the Catholic church adopted an official position of secrecy and helped the child-rapists commit more crimes.

Should we hold Catholic priests, bishops, and cardinals to a higher standard than we do corporate executives, police officers, or firefighters? Absolutely not.

Should we give Catholic priests special consideration because some people believe they are ordained by God? Absolutely not.

for no particular reason I could ever determine other than it was the closest church - and was more or less required to be in semi-regular attendance up to age 14 or so. Subsequently, out of curiosity, I went to several other churches including "Christian Science", and was a guest at various synagogues and catholic venues with friends who frequented them.

Anyway, I decided around age 20 that all religion was tantamount to delusion and have been an atheist for the 42 years since. That being said, to me membership in a 'christian' group is no more an indicator of a person's "goodness" than would their being a jew, a salesman, an engineer, or a garbage collector. Et cetera.

One thing I -have- noticed, though, is that generally a person's integrity tends to be inversely proportional to the vehemence with which they proclaim their personal 'christianity.'

(That might be true with other faiths, but I can't recall anyone making a big deal of (and soliciting business due to) any others.)

Oops...embedded parentheses, I think that's bad form. :eyes:
:D

Christian followed the teachings of Christ and not some yahoo who tells them what Christ meant.

From what I have studied about the early christians there were many different sects and flavors but they can basically be boiled down to three major groups, Jewish Christians, Gnostic Christians and Pauline Christians. The Pauline Christians became the dominant group and when they joined up with the Roman Empire they deemed all the other christians heretics. From there they did their best to wipe the other groups out of existence and suppressed and perverted the true teachings of Christ.

Paul of Tarsus, melded the Jewish Jesus with the pagan god Mithras and this is the Jesus that most Christians worship nowadays. A lot of the myths that are now taught has church doctrine come from this perversion of who and what Jesus really was, especially all the supernatural, superhuman stuff that christians now attribute to Jesus, the virgin birth, rising from the dead, etc.

Most Christians today are Pauline Christians, and as far as I am concerned if Saul had never become Paul the whole world would have been better off.

About 70 years ago an amazing discovery was made that is now known as the Nag Hammadi library. These gospels and letters have all been translated from the originals into English about 30 years ago and are now available to the public.

It occurs to me that people enjoy the negative emotions every bit as much as they do the positive ones. Anger, hatred, prejudice - we see them in lots of guises and in a great many groups. That's a problem for two reasons (at least). None of us are immune to them.

First of all, it makes lots of problems in the here and now. You mentioned some of those above. The funny thing is, when one side goes negative, the other side does too. Groups rarely forgive the other side, and rarely forgive themselves (no, seriously - they may deny the problem, or they can make excuses, or many other evasions. That isn't the same as forgiveness) The Middle East is a perfect example of this cycle. Everyone claims a right to retribution, everyone engages in it, and the cycle goes on forever. Maybe eternally. Could it be that our physical realm is a reflection of the spiritual side?

Second, and more important - what comes next? The Eastern religions promulgate the concept of karma. If people indulge in all of the negative behaviors, they must inevitably accumulate karma, and face more reincarnations, during which they'll build up more karma - and, perhaps, never escape that burden. We'd see endless cycles of people living ever more horrific lives, hurting and being hurt - and the cycles would just keep going. I wonder if solving the problem may not be simpler. Might it not be necessary, if we wish to move ahead, that we forgive others and also ourselves?

Were this the case, then Christianity seems to make some sense. People need some mechanism by which they can step off the treadmill of making ever more horrific lives for themselves and everyone else. Perhaps the message of Christianity is that a mechanism exists to do exactly that. Could it be that the biblical message "None shall come to the father but through the son" might mean - "You've got to forgive yourself and everyone else. You've got to abandon the cycle of revenge. Here's a way to do that."

Given that, there would be no justification for intolerance - and likewise no excuse for the various petty tyrannies that some proclaim in the name of religion. And it would truly be a message of hope.

None of which meets established doctrine, all of which qualifies as heresy, and none of which is provable. Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited.

--Friedrich Nietzsche

Orgaized religions totally turn me off. Having gone thru 12 years of Catholic schools, I have now retired from believing in the old man in the sky and being made to feel guilty or joyous that someone supposedly died for me. Well, no thanks.

The whole notion of creating humanity and then sitting back, watching them suffer and then stirring in the whole Jesus thing - it's psycho, and I will have none of it in my life ever again. Feh!

But then, that goes for any fairy tale….
I have relatives that seem to think that with enough prayers, I will yet pick up that crutch….but not actually in those terms though….
:freak:

"Crutch," "fairy tale," etc. Your denigration of the beliefs of virtually all of mankind is amazing.

When I was in highschool I was chastised by a teacher (public HS, BTW) when I referred to the "Christain mythology". I was told that Hericles and Pandora and Zues and Zorathustra and all the other names for the gods were myth and that the "Christain Mythos" was true and factual.

So tell me again how YOUR faith is denigrated? Oh, and please explain "the beliefs of virtually all of mankind". I don't think so.

The Bible is myth. It is myth as much as Beowulf or Bullfinch or Asop. Are you going to denigrate MY beliefs by arguing differently?

The sooner everyone can see that the names we give our gods are of little importance to when we begin to see that myth is powerfull and nescasary the sooner we will have less problems.

We do we always have to start fights? I'm quite comfortable saying "I believe..." and by adding those words, it is my intention to make room for others who believe differently. It's not up to me to evaluate whether I think they are objectively right or wrong. It doesn't hurt me when someone else says "I believe the Bible is true." The only thing that hurts me is when they say "the Bible is true - I'm deciding the issue for you. I reject your right to decide for yourself, I choose to tell you what is right and wrong, true and untrue."

I certainly wouldn't want to be guilty of the same thing.

I believe that the issue of "truth" is more complicated. I believe that there is a different between literal truth and spiritual truth - and by spiritual truth I believe that means metaphor and symbolism, things that represent larger truths figuratively. I believe that there may be some literal truths to be found in scripture, but I also personally believe that much of scripture should be seen as representative, or pointing to spiritual truths. To me, a lot of the scripture is like a big parable - a story that has the potential for very positive meaning for some, whether literally true or not.

One of the most life-changing stories I've ever read was a work of fiction. That is was fiction did not chance the fact that it certainly pointed to deep and meaningful truths about my experience. I cherished it deeply. There is more to "truth" than just literalism.

Old Testament scholar Phyllis Tribble wrote:

"To appropriate the metaphor of a Zen sutra, poetry is 'like a finger pointing to the moon.' It is a way to see light that shines in darkness, a way to participate in transcendent truth and to embrace reality. To equate the finger with the moon or to acknowledge the finger and not to perceive the Moon is to miss the point."

Just because the Bible might have the capacity to point beyond itself metaphorically, symbolically and theologically to something else doesn't mean it must be decried as irrelevant by any thinking reflective person. Nor does it mean it must be affirmed relevant. I leave that choice up to individuals. And I do not talk down to them, no matter which way they choose (at least I don't want to.)

I personally believe the Bible is like a "finger pointing to the moon." For me in my life, to falsely reduce it by claiming it is historically literal verbatim is to fundamentally miss the value of scared texts. That such texts include myths, parables, analogies and non-literal symbols does not dismiss its power at all for me. I never worshiped "the bible." I've only ever seen the bible as one particular window which carries with it at least the potential (for at least some people like me) to illuminate the deeper mysteries of life.

And if you feel differently, I respect that and call you friend. Why should we argue about it? I'm comfortable in your goodness of person without demanding that you at all points think precisely like I think. I would hope you could show me (and others) the same respect.

Sel

"Crutch," "fairy tale," etc. Your denigration of the beliefs of virtually all of mankind is amazing.

OK, Muddle. There are certain things that religions teach that make sense in terms of rationality and human experience. Don't lie, don't murder, don't steal... these are all injunctions that people agree make for a better quality of life for everyone.

There are other things that religions teach, such as that Jesus was G-d, or that Mary was a virgin, or that Moses received the commandments on tablets of stone, written there by the power of G-d. These are "required beliefs" in some religions that do not contribute in any way, shape or form to helping people understand how to live well. These are the "fairy tales."

I don't believe that Jesus being the Son of God is a stretch, even if Mary wasn't a virgin. Jesus still could have been special. I know that the Bible has many things that are just stories, but IMO certain "miracles" are a legitimate part of the faith. Like Jesus being the Son of God, the Ressurection, and even in some form the Moses one you mentioned.

Its natural for people of each generation to think they are better than the last...yeah right. My point being we convince ourselves that those people of the past were just ignorant and that we being superior couldn't possibly be misled into believeing in just another mythological set of ideas. Face it...religion is mythology. Judism borrowed from many of the mythologies of the people they were controlled by. So,that pretty much proves Judism isn't from some superior being and since Christianity is an off shoot of Judism then obviously it another mythological set of beliefs as well.
Look at the bible,remember in Exodus when god handed down the 10 commandments to Moses,then later they were up on the mount and god looked down and saw how the the chosen people were back to worshipping idols and what not....GOD GOT MAD and told Moses that he would destroy these stiffnecked people and raise him a new people to lead but Moses talked him out of it. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A SECOND,a mere mortal talked the creator of the universe out of doing something..uh does that ring true???? The fact that a god would get mad and not think logically....does that ring true???? Come on...its a bunch of bullshit.

I think that the many religions in the world is one of the reasons there is so much wrong.

And for Christianity... well, Christ preached a compassionate, nonviolent message. Turn the other cheek? No.

The U.S. is not a Christian nation, and the fact that many think it is shows that doublethink can work on a massive scale.

The native americans who fled from the missions and lived their way of life are not on the mission registry, and therefore, are not considered Indians. That means no health care and no chance of benefiting from the casino business.

what is Christianity - I doubt you'd get two people anywhere to agree on precisely what that is.

Personally I wasn't raised in any particular religious faith (as opposed to culture) and had an atheist dad and an agnostic mum - I still float around between the two of those. So maybe my upbringing made me a little more critical of ALL religions.

To my mind the theology of Christianity seems a bit to much like pagan traditions (the Easter festival is a derivative of the return of the goddess Eostre and the coming of Spring - I don't think it ever had much to do with Jesus, if he ever existed) converted to a Judeo monotheist framework to make much sense but if it makes people happy and they don't try and force their religion on me I certainly don't have a problem with it.

When I divorced my ex, I looked for a church that would not condemn me for leaving my adulterous spouse. I went to different churches until I felt I fit. I don't have kids, so a church that was heavy into a childrens' program did not fit. I finally found a church where several in the congregation were gay. I figured if the church was tolerant of gays, it would be tolerant of my marital status. It was. It was a high Episcopal church. The congregation was friendly, accepting and not very judgmental.
My wonderful current husband found the Unitarian church to be his flavor. They actually call themselves a Liberal Church.
I have also heard the Unity Church is good, but I haven't attended any of their services.

an illusion for the ship and an instrument of control for the Shepherd.

I have never seen any zealot bent on saving his soul but others' since most of time they identify themselves to God , so they don't need to be saved . It gives them a sense of power to be able to influence others ,instill fear . I have never , ever run into a compassionate zealot, they are so selfish and so hypocritical,

those who really believe and want to save their soul are usually silent , practice discreetly and are very anxious.

when I contemplate the infinite universe, the stars, the galaxies, the black holes , I see no soul but energy and beauty and solitude

I see a total reconciliation between christianity and buddhism, in
that a buddhist sees all of life as sacred, and that there are some
"bodhisattva's" like jesus christ who are profoundly awakened
teachers. The sum total of that awakening being your state of
awareness *NOW*. The Buddha is inside you, it is your awakening,
like a seed however well watered and sprouted.

Sometimes the Buddha can be outside of you as well, if you are very
lucky to meet such a wise soul. In this regard, i see people who
love jesus as inspired by his awakening and life 2000+ years ago.
They are devotees of his awakening and draw tremendous power from it.
As well, other devotees have such relationships with other teachers
similarly awakened, as it is personal and different in the private
moments of life for every each one of us.

Jesus was recorded in his life studying in the monastaries of
western tibet during his missing years, in western Tibet (Ladakh -
monastery "Hemis"). He brought the profound awakening back to the
west and was murdered for it, whereas, Buddha (Gautama Siddhartha)
lived a full life wandering and teaching all over north India.

Myself I am a christian as well, respecting the great awakening of
Jesus Christ, and as well, those enlightened avatars who are living
today. If you are really inspired by the life of jesus christ and
are sick of not hearing the things you would have heard from him
in person.... there are living buddha's in this world, who have all
the powers that Jesus did 2000 years ago. Why focus on a lost
history when you can be transformed by the present.

Here is a website of a living Avatar who is a modern incarnation of
another lineage different, but similar to Jesus himself. The tibetan
and subcontinent traditions have the best continuity as they've
managed to survive the dictators of the world who try to exterminate
enlightenment... heres 1 of a few: www.adidam.org

"Jesus was recorded in his life studying in the monastaries of
western tibet during his missing years, in western Tibet (Ladakh -
monastery "Hemis")."

I've heard it many times, but have never heard that it was more than just a theory.

If you know of any links that would help, I would appreciate it if you could share them.

Thanks

of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism as I do in any of the monotheistic. As a teenager/young adult I looked into as they seemed at the very least less corrupted and interested in money and power than some of the other churches, I found that that wasn't neccesarily true, unfortunately.

i attended parochial school for all but grades 7 & 8, when i attended the public jr. high school. I was active in the church youth group and the choir, and i actually bought into the whole storyline for quite awhile.
but then i got to thinkin'...and it all seemed...a...little......odd.

how does jesus dying on the cross redeem all the sins of all makind for all time? is one for which i've never gotten a satisfactory answer- after all, if god is all omnipotent and all, why is the arcane symbolism of 'redemption thru christ's blood' even necessary? since he's the judge, jury and executioner when it comes to our immortal souls, why is it that he chooses to play the sadist with his supposed own and only son, rather than just making it so?(the "so" being the forgiveness of mankind's collective sins)

and for those who don't accept jesus and repent, the loving father figure has an eternity of torment waiting for them, along the shores of the lake of fire- rather than just extinguishing the holder of the offending soul(as his power would allow)...

i.e.- the christian god is a sick sadist.

AND(btw-)
it seems to me that most christians get their faith all back-asswards- they concentrate more on the man-god(christ) than on the message: "Love thy neighbor as thyself"- i.e "do unto others, yada yada yada..."

just an observation.

as for an opinion- christianity is just as dangerous and toxic for our society as any religion...maybe even worse.

and not some for of evil which they abuse the name of christianity as cover, then things would be better.

But I still think that, in order to do good in the world, you dont need religion, but if religion makes people do good, then so be it (course, its not entirely that way in the world, is it?).

who's a big fan, from what i've read, of ulrich zwingli, who focused very much on the individual's relationship with god, and held the church to be only a group where individual's gather as a family. a far cry from what the church is now, and was in his day.

For reasons not connected with this thread and way to involved to go into here.
I'm going to avoid theology and focus on something that bothers me.

I was raised southern baptist. My personal experience with Christians has been pretty positive throughout my life. When I got older and was able to reason more, I saw that the main focus of most Christian's lives involved "getting into heaven" (my own personal experience). Not acting in a charitable manner towards people because it was right, but to gain brownie points with god. One fundie I knew called that act "storing crowns in heaven". To me that's a purely selfish act. If someone I know acts charitable they seem to shout it out to everyone. One recent example is the man who spent thousands on "Passion" tickets. You never hear about those who do things quietly. Matt. 6:16 reminds me of that.

but the fundamentals are marvelous.

God isn't dead because he died, but because communication with God has been cut off by the church.

Part of being human is a need for some spiritual component in our lives. We all tend to seek God in our own ways, even if we don't admit there are gods at all. God, by his very nature, is undefinable in human terms and can be thought of as an anthropomorphic being or a mathematical formula. It simply makes no difference since we can't really know.

Most of us who have some religion accept some version of the religion we grew up with, and that's pretty much it. Not much thought or doubt involved. I grew up as a Lutheran surrounded by Catholics and Jews, and had my doubts pretty early on. There was a lot of good stuff in those churches and synagogues, but it all just seemed engraved in stone and largely devoid of life and meaning.

Eventually I came to see all religions as each viewing one of the many faces of God. Something like the blind men and the elephant.

I remain nominally a Christian partly because I am familiar with and comfortable with most of the traditions. Mainly because I agree with and believe in the message of Christ. Questions of Christ's divinity can't possibly be answered rationally, so they are irrelevant to my version of Christianity. So are questions of sin, grace, and salvation. One can easily and safely "believe" in them because they are largely irrelevant. Deliberately denying them is silly, again since they can't be proven or disproven.

So, I ended up joining a Quaker meeting where everyone pretty much shares my views of Christianity and social justice. And politics.

If there is then he is a sadistic evil @$$hole.
He killed my nother last year in her late 50s my Girlfriends father in his mid 50's. My 7 month old niece My 12 year old cat .And 2 days ago A Mother of two kids on the night of her sons prom via cancer.Now all above were good people And No they are not in a Better Place A better place would be Alive.at home with their familys
So if there is a god then i hate that imaginary piece of shit!!!!

Carefully considering the 'wall of separation,' shouldnt this thread be placed in a religion forum...you know, a place where the question "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" can be discussed at length.

Always this 'camel's nose under the tent flap' push to keep this topic in political areas....

On making religious folks as unwelcome as possible, not just at DU, but in their purified version of the Democratic Party.

What they forget is such a party would have a difficult time getting someone elected dogcatcher.

about who and what christianity is today and how it effects our lives. Especially since those in power want to turn the USA into a christian nation, this is a very important topic of discussion. Even if you don't believe in god, the xians fundies are having a major impact on all aspects of politics and government, and it is important for these issues to be discussed openly, if we are ever going to take back the country from the fanatics who are in power.

Anyone who doesn't like these types of discussions should just hit the ignore button? No one is forcing anyone else to come to DU and read these threads? You still have free will, don't you?

And I am more than happy to discuss religion and how it effects our lives.

Unfortunately, many do NOT want to discuss it in a way that doesn't devolve into name-calling and abuse.

Yes, I have free will and that includes not just sitting there and tolerating anti-religious bigotry that never fails to visit these discussions.

However, we know we can count on you to show up anytime anyone dares to mention certain key words, like Israel, Sharon, Likud or Mossad.

Horrors.

Actually, I post on many topics, but I am glad you are a fan.

Just kidding. There are only so many hours in the day and my main focus is removing Bu$hCo from power.

I mostly hang out in LBN and GD, where we can always count on you to show up as soon as certain key words are brought up.

I'd hate to disappoint.

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"God doesn't exist" IS NOT religious bigotry.

I do not beleive that God or God(s) exist - that isn't bigotry - it's MY beleif

But when you mock my belief when you say it, that is wrong. It is also pretty common here.

It's common for atheists and other non-believers to be mocked as well around here.

For instance, if a person posted that they "have no g/God(s)," why is it appropriate for someone else to post something like "You have a God and you're lucky he still believes in you." I find that equally insulting to the poster's beliefs.



(Edited to add a missing word.)

The person said this:

"There is no god and belief in nonsense is the enemy.

bye bye."

That kind of attack deserves an equally sarcastic response.

So....

Abortion.... Gay marriage... arent political issues that 'christians' cant agree on?

The 'religious' folks have made me and thousands of other agnostics, atheists and people of religions other than 'christians' feel bad and unwelcome for centuries.

I tire of hearing about how the 'christians' are persecuted in America. What a load of crap!

AND... you wouldnt be 'persecuted' around the rest of the world if you would stay in your backyard. quit knocking on the doors of those in other countries with other beleifs.

I have yet to have a 'muslim' knock on my door wanting to discuss his beleifs on 'God', or Allah.

I tire of being told that I am going to hell and then for that person to say...'Im not condeming you, its my God who is'.


mq

warren_peace001@hotmail.com


markq_99@yahoo.com.........<.... my yahoo messenger i/d

Tonight.
you know the one that god just seemed fit to take from her Family via cancer.
I appreciate the condolences that i didnt get .It appears that people couldnt see past the "THERE IS NO GOD" to see why I believe that there is no god!!
in the last 16 months my mother my gals father my niece my cat.Oh god is just so damn great!!
I used to believe But I refuse to believe in such an evil being real or unreal that sees fit to let good people Die.
So shoot away Pray and believe if you choose.Frankly I dont care!!!
And I will say it again God is a sadistic evil Pr_ck And I wish he Existed so I could Hate Something other then a fantasy!!!!!

I don't want it in my life.

Don't bother responding, Muddle, I have you on ignore, remember?

structured to control the masses.Religion is hazardous to all life forms.

What is hazardous about peace, love, and understanding? What is harmful about Love one Another? What is wrong about not disrespecting parents?

are ignoring as many tenets of christianity as those who are only about fire and brimstone - it's NOT all about love, and some people's parent's DESERVE disrespect

I feel you are bitter about this subject and I will part from this discussion. Maybe one day you can read Dr. Martin Luther Kings "A Measure of A Man". Take care.

I'm bitter because I beleive there's more to Christianity than "love and peace" whatever.

And personally I'm more a Malcolm X than MLK person - but thanks anyway

I have purposely narrowed my discussion on this issue because there are some that are not as tolerant when it comes to christianity. I have seen many get tombstoned for less. Take care.

everyone else is as entitled to say/beleive "I think you beleive in a fairy story" that's NOT intolerant, we're happy for YOU to beleive what you like, some erligious people here are not happy for US to beleive what we want though

the fundie/evangelist mindset, something that is not going well because I am married to a fairly traditional, conservative Christian and go to his church of choice. And the situation is compounded because we have kids and we are both of us very concerned about what they are taught about God.

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

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passing judgement?

assumption that you know who Jesus likes and dislikes.

...is based on what I have gotten out of the Bible. It is my way of saying they contradict the very thing that they profess their undying belief in.

if it paid attntion to what Jesus had to say (not just interpretations of Paul). It would be better if it didn't just concentrate on the crucifixion and church interpretations. However, people by their nature would rather concentrate on the things the Church does than to concentrate on what Jesus had to say. They would have to change their way of life.

take from the teaching of Jesus that which can sustain you thru your life and remember, a religion is just supposed to help you participate in a religious experience.

Are that man is a child of god. We are to walk on the straight and narrow and love your enemies as well as your friends. We seek peace and spread the Gospel (Gospel means "good news") that Jesus died on the cross to give us eternal salvation. Jesus also teaches that we will be persecuted (mocked, and laughed at) for such beliefs. Jesus also was a man that spoke to anyone and everyone that is supposed to teach us not to be prejudice. We are not to be judgmental either.

We are not taught to "convert"
We are not taught to "Brainwash" (I still argue if your brain is dirty it needs to be cleaned. My opinion of course)
We are taught to provide you with the GOSPEL and what you do with it is between you and God, nobody else.

I have read a common thread throughout all of the Christian posts here. Christians are evil, Feed Christians to the lions. Christians are dumb and lack free thought. I implore each and every one to read the bible and read "A knock at Midnight" by Dr. Martin Luther King.
Just think, by dogging on Christians you are dogging on Dr. Martin Luther King, (A Baptist Preacher).

Well I am here today to say that to be a Christian does not mean that you put yourself in a stereo-typed box of Conservative or Liberal. To be a Christian means that you have faith in Jesus and all other tenants of Christianity. Which means that you believe what is said in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

I also admit that I am not perfect. I sin on a daily basis. I have evil thoughts, I get angry. I also have tragedy. I also have sadness. (I am a human being)

old and new testament, and the Koran and religious writings of many different hues. I would LIKE to be able to beleive and have that comfort that it's all beyond me but I just can not suddenly believe in something that has so many holes and ALL religions and all individual concepts of God do. For example how DOES one belive in what's said in Matthew, Mark, Luke AND JOhn when they do not agree with each other?

It was written at different times after the death of Jesus. Based upon the logic that the closer to Jesus death the more accurate. Mark was written about 60 years after Jesus death. So if you want to pick the most accurate account of Jesus, that would be Mark. I forgot the name of the Jewish scribe that recorded the events back then. But he has the second earliest account of Jesus and his followers. My information comes from the lecture series from a professor with the teaching company. (They have a web site.) This is a secular look at early Judaism and Christianity. I am about to go to bed so I will look up the stuff later and post it.

the gospels of Thomas, Philip and Mary?

I fail to see the value in letting one's entire world view be influenced by one work of fiction.

Because every one of these threads reminds me THAT concept is a complete myth.

without subscribing to them myself - I can beleive it's all a myth and STILL be tolerant of you beleiving whaetver you want. Although personally I don't like the word "tolerant" you tolerate stuff that you don't like - I have no problem with you beleiving what you want but that doesn't make MY beleief that religions are the modern variants of the old myths people used to exaplin things thousands of years ago and nothing more.

And many here manage that. Many more revel in the fact that they don't.

Yes, you can believe it's a myth, but calling my beliefs so is an attack -- and that seems to be lost on some here.

Why not simply say that you don't believe?

Why allow the hatred of religion -- and that IS what we are talking about here for many -- to further divide us?

intolerant of others.

I'm just saying that I, personally don't see the value of basing one's belief system on ONE fictional book. Nothing more. That means that I wouldn't do it, PERSONALLY. I accept or reject persons based on their actions and expressed beliefs. Faith has nothing to do with it, unless their faith causes them to behave poorly.

A book hundreds of millions would be willing to debate you on that point.

Welcome to the big tent that many here seem content to keep small enough to lose every election.

whether people have faith in a religion or not. I encourage all people to vote, and as long as they are not biggoted fools, I will have no truck with them.

The tent is big enough for all, and you accusing me of exclusivity is total bullshit. I never said anybody should be excluded.

I'm just saying that I (eye) don't see the value of basing one's entire world view on ONE SINGLE WORK OF LITERATURE.

but until they can proove the factual nature of the BIble people should stop using it as an argument

which is a sort of delusion. i.e. "a firm belief in something for which there is no proof" (merriam-webster online)

Their arguments for the veracity of the bible would be based on what? I would postulate.....THE BIBLE!! as that's the only remaining "proof" It's a circular argument, and I reject it.

Besides, I'm only stating my opinion. I don't believe the bible is factual, so I don't see the value in basing one's ENTIRE WORLD VIEW on it. I would find as much fault with basing one's entire world view on a single piece of scientific writing too.

Calling religious folks delusional isn't exclusive?

Are the texts which teach Buddhism true?
Are the Upanishads true?
Is the Tao true?
Is the Koran true?

I assume your answer is yes. If I'm wrong, would you mind telling me why? And if they're not true, what are they?

There might be a God.

There might not be a God.

Personally I do not give a shit.

Freedom of religion is fine.

Morning moments of silence are fine.

Want to give my money to fund some church charity?

Hell no.

Don't like Abortions?

Cool don't have one. I never plan to. Easy for me because I am a male.

Hypocisy lives in the hearts of believers and unbelievers and well lots of people. I have no hate for Christians. Let 'em do what they want as long as they stay the hell out of my way.

I got one life to live. I just want to live it.
_

Religious practice has always been a global epidemic. But, with the advent of technological advances in transportation, communication and weaponry, governments that are primarily theocratic are, for the first time, in a position to seriously threaten the survival of the human race. (This is not to say that other types of governments aren't also equally dangerous.)

As I grew I realized it wasn't a love for Christianity that I needed for growth but a spiritual understanding of Self on dealing with life.

Whatever it may have meant in the past, today the face of Christianity is hate, intolerance, and war. For every Jesse Jackson or Jimmy Carter who stands for God in a peaceful, justice-seeking way, there is an army of Pat Robertsons and George Bushes promoting death, genocide, and theft under the banner of the cross. You can feel it in the fundamentalist's aura (assuming you are sensitive to auras) that the "message" is about hate, hysteria, and propping up unjustified feelings of superiority among the sheeple. People criticize Muslim leaders and say that they don't do enough to denounce hate, but how many of our Christian leaders are standing up and denouncing hate? Jackson and Carter are getting pretty old. Where are the young Christians to say, in a public arena, Jesus was not about this? I'm sorry but I don't see them standing up. In the past few years, I've been completely driven away by the hate and intolerance which is now accepted as the "default" position of Christians.

Jesus would not be welcome in any fundamentalist church. For starters, he was a Jew! But even the more mainstream churches would have a problem with a "drifter" wandering around teaching an independent message and attracting his own disciples -- who also quit their jobs and start wandering around. Yeah, that's really socially acceptable. The Gospels are clear that you cannot have money and possessions and also pretend to be a spiritual seeker. This message is completely unacceptable to modern minds.

Christianity had its time and place but real Christianity doesn't work in today's world and the fake Christianity concocted by the modern Know-Nothings is pure evil. Nothing lasts forever. It's time to move on.

I think the teaching that each individual human being has inherent worth was an important one in the development of human rights. But the teaching that any one faith has all the answers and other faiths are of the devil has been responsible for a lot of murder, persecution, and intolerance. The obsession with chastity and the idea that humans are inherently sinful are also pretty nasty.

1. the christian 'stoic' mentality that basically says, "relax god is in control." the idea that you do not have to work at your personal life and the life of your community/country/society. this basically serves as population control.

2. the apocalyptic insistence of christianity

"Each one must learn for himself the highest wisdom. It cannot
be taught in words." ~ Smowhala

it's with those who don't follow the religion. Things are done in the name of Christianity, but they aren't real Christians IMO. Even the Catholic Church is pretty intolerant. And sees its teachings as perfect. I think people have dwelled on the Bible too much and not enough on what Jesus stood for. I don't like what Christianity has become, but I'm not going to give up on it. I hope it can evolve. Much has been done in Christianity's name for good, including feeding and clothing lots of people and the monks who kept learning alive during the Middle Ages.

Mt friend Ray( a minister) who produces the forum

www.liberalslikechrist.org
read him.

At least here and now.

just another set of beliefs that someone chooses to adhere to.

yay religious tolerance!

... of the week". That was forty years ago, but it must still be true. Self-styled "Christians" seem to be on the wrong side of many moral issues, at least in this country, though the theory of Christianity seems pretty worthwhile.

I seem to have an "ebb and flow" history regarding formal participation at church, but not in my belief in Jesus and God.

What I think makes it difficult for me to remain active in a church, at times, is people who claim Christ as their Savior, but who act as though their faith entitles them to claim moral superiority. It's not the "brand" of Christianity that I'd aspire to, and it puts me off.

What "Christianity" means to me, besides my belief that Jesus died for our sins, is that Christians should show evidence of compassion, humility, and good works.

I tend to vote looking for the above-mentioned qualities in a candidate :)

it has no way of condemning the people who do harm in its name. The beliefs and principals that the majority of Christians live by are far removed from what happens in their name. That the Catholic church has not really owned up to the despicable behavior of some of their practitioners is very much like the AMA not policing the doctors that commit professional crimes.
Most good Christians are too meek and afraid to speak out against the likes of Falwell and his ilk.

I'm not qualified to judge anyone other than myself and even that doesn't count in the end.

the fundamentalists will continue their advance, hell bent on fulfilling the apocalypse and condemning all non-believers to the fire. if you want christianity to be viewed as a peaceful, loving ideology, you must police your own, speak out, and prevent the fanatics from representing your religion.

gotten it in the end because no one would speak out, if you know what I mean.

Honestly, with all these religion threads on DU I am starting to wonder if a liberal Christian is even welcome here.

Why the hostility? Don't paint an entire group of people, an entire belief system with the same brush.

So I believe in God and Jesus and all that. So what? What does it take away from anyone? I pray and meditate at home, in private. I don't hurt anyone. I wish they'd take "under God" out of the frigging pledge. In fact, scrap the damn pledge altogether, it's creepy to watch six year olds saying it without having a clue what they are saying. Sorry I went off-topic there.

I don't go around telling people I am Christian or looking my nose down at anyone (I really don't care WHAT religious beliefs anyone has or if they have any at all). I'm not out trying to convert anyone. I don't tell people I'll pray for them unless they specifically ASK for such (and that never happens). I don't feel persecuted or send around nasty anti-atheist emails. I don't think the goverment and religion should be in the same ROOM together, much less in bed together.

So what's all the denigration of religion? All the "fairy tales", "imaginary creatures", "religion is bullshit" stuff about? What did I ever do to any of you? I don't make fun of ANYONE's belief systems or lack of it.

Lay off. Get some peace in your soul (or yourself). You don't have to have religion to get it, either!
;)

It's OUR belief.

I consider myself a moderate to liberal Christian but there does seem to be a lot of hostility about Christianity here. I was beginning to think that between this bible study I was in and this site, there could be no such thing as liberal Christian. It's nice to know someone else feels the same way I do.

First off, I unreservedly congratulate you on your practice of your faith. It's nobody's business, really, and I admire you for keeping it that way.

You will, I trust, try to understand that many have come across (as have you, I'm sure) far more Christians who believe it's their duty to save the damned than you have Christians who quietly practice their faith without the need to proselytize. There is, I guess, also some sort of middle ground -- believers who practice their faith, secure in the awareness that they will go to heaven and the rest of us will land in hell.

Anyway, how about filling in these blanks:

Lord Shiva and the entire Hindu pantheon are ______________.
The Buddha is ________________.
The belief that inanimate objects are imbued with sentient spirits is ___________________.
The belief that people can be influenced or harmed by spells is ____________.

Thanks.

this is always my point - to beleive in, say, christianity (whichever branch) is to INHERENTLY beleive that Muslims are WRONG, that Hinduism is a myth etc etc

Why it it offensive for me to say i think ALL religious beliefs are myths but it's OK to beleive ONES OWN is right and all the others myths?

Or is someone going to tell me that it's possible to beleive in Jesus and Vishnu and Buddha and Mohammed etc etc

I left after a very bad incident at the church I used to attend. then to make matters worse my father agreed with what was done to me .
every time i even think about it my blood starts boiling. I will never enter a church or prayer meeting again except for family business(weddings & funerals). I don't have anything against some Christians just those who think like the ones who treated me so wrong.

for those who DON'T..

Religion (to me) is a way for (some) people to make sense of the world..

I, on the other hand, don't feel the need to make sense of it.

We are as connected to the earth and cosmos, as a clump of soil, a butterfly, a leaf,or any other carbon-based lifeform..

We are born/hatched/morphed....we reproduce (or not)... we rear our young (or not)...we age...and then we die..

My opinion of the whole biblical "explanation" is the same as any myth.. People love to attach meaning to everything, and just as the greeks had Zeus..the Nordic people had Thor..The Romans had Mars... We have Jesus..:).. Of course mythological "heroes" cannot really peacefully co-exist, so other people's "heroes" are automatically "less than" ours..The rub is this.. THEY still think that their heroes are top-notch and that OURS are all wrong..

Holy war is the only end reslut, when people tie their futures to mythological musings..

Saying all Christians have the same mindset as Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell is like saying all Muslims think like Osama bin Laden. Every religion has its bad seeds. Every political party has its bad seeds, too. Clinton was no picnic. Neither is Bush. Chill everyone. :crazy: Have a beer and relax. :beer:

...may have been the last one to practice it.

That gave me a smile. Thanks :thumbsup:

GO AWAY and leave me in peace.

always the religion will be the scourge of Humanity

no Easter bunny,the Earth was not created in six days,the Robertsons, Fallwells, Grahams, Swaggerts, priests, Rabbis and Mullahs who preach this baloney are all too intelligent to believe it themselves, it is about control and manipulation.

But I despise fundamentalists and their sick, cruel, idiotic belief system with every fiber of my being. Their anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-science agenda is absolutely frightening, especially when you consider how much power they have now that one of their own is in the White House. These lunatics are as big a threat as Al Qaeda as far as I'm concerned.

as long as their belief does not impact on my quality of life. In other words, yes to religious freedoms, yes to a secular state. I have no time whatsoever for any organised religion, although I don't discount the possibility of the existence of god.

V

I think that overall, the teachings of Christ himself were of value. However, I think far too often, organized religion gets hung up on dogmatic junk that have nothing to do with the actual teachings of Christ himself.

if a label were to be applied to me, then I'd have to say I'm a Lutheran Christian, to be more precise. However, I think the concept of organized religion is evil itself. Too many people have died in the name of God...stemmming back to even way before The Crusades. Do you think God would advocate killing in his name? I think not.

I have my beliefs. I believe in God. I believe Jesus died for my sins. I don't think that religion should be used to run the govt. like Dubya is doing today. I believe in that separation of Church and State.

Liberal in the theological sense, not just politically.

I don't have a need for Jesus to be the saviour. I don't have a need to agree with everything Paul says, especially when he's plainly being an ass, i.e. the diatribe-filled letter to the Galatians. I don't have a need for Hell. My love for God is not based on fear of punishment or torment. I don't have a big need for religious hieriarchies, i.e. the church. I think they hinder the connection to the divine that we all have access to.

I do have a need for Jesus as teacher and spiritual leader and friend. For God as comforter and friend. I have a need for churches as places of community and sources of involvement. I have a need to keep learning keep reaching out to keep expanding my knowlege about spiritual matters.

I think the Church has suffered at times from paying too much attention to Paul's worst traits and not enough to what Jesus, by tradition, tells us is important. By extention, people who were on the outs with the church, athiests, jews, participants of other faiths were hurt too. Too rigid, dogmatic, and powerful. And I don't have any easy answers about how to change that.

I like that old saying "Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there."

And no, I don't want people influencing our government based upon what they perceive to be church doctrine. This is not a christian nation. And I will fight that every step of the way.

Visit.

http://tcpc.org/ Peek around, lots of good info here.

They have a discussion area also.

http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/

forced to go to church every sunday. Forced to go to a catholic grade school. Forced to take religion classes every day for 12 years. I never believed, truly, the garbage they were putting on me. I was a truly rebellious spirit there. In fact, when I was 12, our school had a Halloween costume party and I went as Queen Anne Boleyn--and won 2nd place. The person who caused England to become a protestant nation--I had some cheek for a 5th grader.

The day I graduated from high school in 1978 was the last time I set foot in a catholic church.

I came away with the feeling that christianity is a skirt behind which the most vile, desperate and power-mongering men land grabbed and mind controlled ignorant people for centuries.

world that had gone morally wrong with blood games and other cruelties too unspeakable to mention. However, Christians did their turn at bloody events like the Crusades and the Inquisition for instance once they became powerful.

I think now that we have science, we don't need religion. I think all things we think are impossible or belong in another place like Heaven or Hell, will eventually be revealed by science to be very much a part of our existence in this universe.

My mind is always open to new ideas, but no one can tell me that they have the ear of God or any other supernatural entities without offering me proof by the scientific method.

In other words, if you want me to accept your god as real, you'd better have concrete proof.

Before China's invasion, Tibet was a feudal society with the priests at the top of the food chain. They used to use peasant's backs to climb on their horses. Religion by its nature is authoritarian and reactionary. There are exceptions to this of course, but for every MLK there are 20 Pat Robertsons, Osamas and Baruch Goldsteins. BTW, no historical evidence outside Bible that Jesus ever existed.

in any country where Buddhism is the dominant or a major religion, there are corrupt and brutal Buddhist monks, it's not just the perserve of pervy Catholic priests to use their religion to protect or excuse their own sadism. It happens in every religion

Just so Muddle doesn't think it's ONLY Christianity or even monothesim I have problems with ;)

Why, it's the SHROUD OF TURIN!



What about the visions of the Holy Mother, as in Fátima?

The Miami Cuban "exiles" claim to have seen the Virgin Mary in the bathroom mirror in the house of the drunken great-uncle Lázaro Gonzalez in Little Havana!


Lázaro!

How much evidence would you need? <smirk>

today's "christians" in general seem to focus too much on the man, and the wrong part of the message. the only thing people seem to care about is being on the right "naughty or nice" list when the day of reckoning comes (and that's not the only reason that they're like kids & Santa).

the teachings credited to the christ are pretty good rules to live by- except that the "christians" seem to focus more on the ones that deal with absolving guilt and getting thru the pearly gates, rather than getting along with their fellow humans...Personally, I feel that the getting along part is the real meat of what it should be about.