Founding Fathers and Separation of Church and State

Ever hear a fundamentalist interpret the meaning of church and state separation? They believe Christianity and the Bible are the basis of our government. To them, I ask they pay close attention to the preamble of the Constitution:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Where is the word God in this paragraph? It does not say "We the people of the United States under God".

Thanks to Susan Jacoby (author of "Freethinkers") who pointed this out on NPR this morning. She also went on to explain that through the years, fundamentalists have tried and sometimes been successful in blurring the line between religion and government - the words "In God We Trust" were printed on our money during the Civil War period, not before.

There are those who believe in God but believe men are in control of their own destinies and make thier own choices.

There are those who believe in God but believe men are ruled by a divine plan and their choices are made by God.

Those in power today belong to the latter group. A far cry from what our founding fathers intended when they wrote the Constitution.

“The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that it would read ‘A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;’ the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”

This is the basic problem the SCOTUS has had lately...

:shrug:

I'd attract a freep with this post. :evilgrin:

My reading of the Constitution makes me a freeper? Must I agree with everything everyone says to be a proper liberal?

I'll give you a chance - perhaps I misinterpreted your comment. Please explain your problem with SCOTUS.

trying to determine whether there is a fundamental right of Freedom from religion, or freedom of religion. I agree with an earlier post that the two are inseperable, however there is a fundamental question the court revisits time and time again concerning the balance between the right to actively practice your religion and the inability of the government to help religious organizations perform secular outreach.

The court has already stated that there might be a fundamental shift in its rulings when the faith based initiative becomes ripe for review.

That is all I am saying. Should have been more clear.

Religion has no place in government. The people have the right to believe or not believe whatever they choose WITHOUT INTERFERENCE OR COERCION FROM GOVERNMENT.

An atheist should not be made to feel inferior or unpatriotic for not believing in God.

Religious symbols should not be displayed on public property.

My tax dollars SHOULD NOT fund faith-based initiatives.

and those of us in liberal blue 'giver' states are funding discrimination with our federal tax $$. I'm getting DAMN sick of watching my money leave my state, when we could definitely use it.

The founding fathers could very easily have included God in the constitution if they'd wanted to.

They were very able to explain what they wanted. They did NOT mention God, they did NOT say the US was founded as a Christian or even theistic nation. Rather, they advanced what was then a very radical notion: religion has no official role in government.

Atheists are Americans, as are non-Christians, regardless of what the so-called "Christian" religious right says.

For info on how the Religious Right has taken over the Republican Party, see http://www.TheocracyWatch.org/

1) Do you agree with what Bush I said about atheists?

2) Hello & goodbye.

His quote against atheists and their patriotism and citizen status is and continues to be ignorant.

and vice versa. They are inextricably bound.

Freedom of religion was put in the Constitution to ensure that we did not repeat Britain history of a state religion. That does not mean that we excise all religious references in our society to satisfy those who are offended.

else the concept is meaningless and utterly without value. To have utter and perfect freedom of conscience in the sphere of religion means, perforce, that one must be as free to have no religion all as one is to be Jew, Christian, Muslim, or Hindu (or Wiccan or Satanist, for that matter).

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

welcome to du

I'd love to quote it sometime.

.

Sounds like an interesting interview on NPR, sorry I missed it.

The Constitution is very clear about the separation of church and state, and the main purpose is to prevent religious tyranny. This a very simple, straightforward concept based on common sense and reason, and it's unfortunate that some Americans need to be constantly reminded of it.

Although the framers were Christians, they fell into that category of "those who believe in God but believe men are in control of their own destinies and make their own choices."

Madison and Adams were notably vocal Christians. Many of them (the high thinkers Jefferson and Franklin come to mind) were Deists, looking toward the teachings of the Enlightenment philosphers. This fact does not go over well with fundies.

Surprised it hasn't been removed by now.

in Congress or the Senate?

When did the theocrats finally get their way?

and every now and then they get a small victory.

Believing in God (whatever form that takes) was not a prerequisite for governing the United States of America - the framers of the Constitution did not intend it to be. Many of them were religious but chose to keep their personal beliefs out of government.

The only place the Con. mentions religion is in support of your post:

Article VI(3)

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Members of congress operate under their own rules and procedures. For example, a member of congress is immune from criminal prosecution for doing anything within the scope of his representation in Washington, DC. Obviously this has been construed as vague, but a member, for example, may smoke in the Office building, even though it is illegal for anyone else. Why else can D's and R's smoke in the cloak rooms between votes and debate...

Samuel Adams and Thomas Cushing began the prayer tradition in Congress. Chaplains have been appointed for every Congress since 1776.

That is the history you wanted...

:shrug:

In my opinion, the best argument for the separation of church and state is "hold the line firm because you'd never want The State telling you who to worship". As a very spiritual person, their is no way something as organized, standardized, and bureaucratic as The State could control my spiritual convictions. It's incomprehensible.

The State/government= objective, daily concerns, formulaic, mechanical, people relations on a massive scale.

Religious, spiritual affairs= subjective, mystical, eternal concerns, artistic, deeply personal people connections

They are separate spheres. To combine church and state is to belittle the important role of spirituality in peoples lives.

The State is simply what helps millions of people live together. It strengthens us by uniting us. It brings us material security and mortal justice to keep society in order, and even to protect us from each other. The more aspiritual The State is, the more freedom we have to embrace and expand the myriad of diverse beliefs we share.

"render unto God that which is God's"

even Jesus understands separation of church and state

thought that too much religion was worse than not enough. Perhaps the fact that when he invented the lightning rod in 1753 he was denounced by many preachers for "interfering with the wrath of god" added to his opinion. He was the only man to have a hand in all the founding documents.

To back their arguments,form the Declaration of Independence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

They love to point to "creator" and use that as evidence that I got MY rights from THEIR god.



I like to point out that I have the liberty to believe anything I wish about who or what MY creator is. I can believe my creator is God,The Big Bang or I can even believe everything was created by a ham sandwich if I damn well please.

When you get right down to it,the fundies thinly veiled attempts to institute a theocratic Christian based government are not that hard to see through. If that is what they want,fine.Let them go somewhere and found their own country and stop fucking up ours.

If they would bother to read history,they would find out that "Christian Nations" don't have such a good track record. They have brought the world the Inquisition,The Crusades,The Salem Witch Trials,Apartheid and a whole lot more suffering. Our Founding Fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they set up the Constitution.It doesn't need to be fucked with!