Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 3)

I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

This is thread #3 on this subject. Here are links to Thread #1 and Thread #2.

It's kind of Ashcroftian.

If you use it, you get booted. You can still use it and people can alert on it and get your butt kicked because it is offensive to women.

This might need your attention:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1354041#1354206

I'd say that's a gender-specific generalization. As a male, I find sexism offensive. I don't have to be a woman to find something offensive. Furthermore, many DUers who identify themselves as women don't regard the word 'bitch' to be offensive.

Are we travelling down some road that implies that only women are the arbiters of what's "offensive"?? Are we implying that men are somehow innately inferior in determining what's "offensive"???

:eyes:

Terms such as "nigger," "kike," "wop," "spick," "wetback," "chink," "mick," "gook," etc. are applied in a derogatory manner toward members of a population (Jews, homosexuals, Asians, Hispanics, etc.) simply because they are members of that population. An example of this is the word 'nigger' -- a term used in connection with an immutable characteristic in a single context.

In contrast, words like "bitch" are applied on a gender-neutral basis, because of one's behavior. Hence, Sean Hannity could be an "ultraconservative bitch." Call me crazy, but I believe I should be able to call him that without being considered a bigot who refers to blacks as 'niggers,' ethnic Chinese as 'chinks,' homosexuals as 'fags,' etc.

Blanket bans on certain words are foolish. I say allow the moderators to judge the appropriateness of a word on a case-by case basis.

And when it is used for men, it's because they are acting like "bitchy women" - which is seen as the ultimate putdown. You can reinvent the definition all you want, but that doesn't make it so, nor does it take away the origin of the word.

I didn't have an issue with the word bitch. I don't like it, and when someone asked, I said I didn't.

The word I took issue with was bitch-slap. That too, refers to a guy "slapping his bitch" because she got out of line. You can say it is used for other things, just like some blacks might use the N word for each other, but that doesn't mean it's the widely accepted meaning - and it doesn't undo the damage the word does.

I specifically remember Ravens defensive players using the term toward each other in fun in some filming of practices and in the locker room. I'm pretty sure it was in that HBO production fiollowing the Raven through training camp.

So would Ray Lewis be the person in that context acting like a woman? You tell him you think so. I'll watch.

EMASCULATE them.

Hehehehe.

But it would be the same to call a guy "Miss So-and-so". Thus, it's not becuase of the denotation of the term bitcc but due to the fact that language has gender (English far less than French, Spanish, or German).

Want to eradicate gender from language???

Fine.

Don't stop until "him," "her" "his" "hers" "boy" "girl" "man" "woman" "male" "female" and many, many others are gone.


BTW ... Have you ever seen restrooms labeled "Men" and "Ladies"??? They exist quite frequently in such pairings. I think it's funny how many people don't even take notice. (It's probably funny that someone could read this and wonder "So what?")

And there's a new book out entitled: "Stitch'n Bitch"

It's about knitting, written by a woman.

Guess it would be forbidden to discuss this book.

or is the author using bitch as a noun... yikes.... confusing.

"If a thread title has the word bitch-slap, and it offends you- don't open the thread.

There are much more important things we need to be worrying about."

excuse me, but you do not have the power to decide for me what is and isn't important. i'm not saying this to be trite. it's very much the same as someone saying what does and doesn't offend me. you don't have the power to make those decisions for anyone other than yourself.

One of the ways some people react when we point out sexism on DU is to tell us that "there are more important things to focus on". Yup. Sexism isn't really important even if it does negatively impact just over half the population.

When it comes to sexism, it's all in our heads.

I choose to NEVER look into threads on religion, atheism, abortion, or in the recent past a thread entitled "I will never use the word Bitch Again" by someone. Why? Because these are all issues I don't particularly care about - I don't care who is a Christian or an Atheiest or anywhere in between. Abortion I care very much about the right to choose but I don't care to waste my time reading flame wars and I certainly never checked in on the bitch thread because I just did not give a shit who got their feelings hurt.

You CAN make the choice. If your curiousity gets the better of you and you must read it, fine, if it pisses you off and you want to comment on the use of the word, fine. But look what the uproar has created - You can CHOOSE to be a victim or you can CHOOSE to be free from the things that bother you.

No, no one has the power to choose for you what's important but the fact still remains: What's more important:

a) Someone is using the word bitch-slap on a discussion board.
b) American is now in a bogus war with people's children, mothers and fathers dying every day for a lie.
c) We have a President who was unelected, lied about WMD's to start a war, participated in 9/11 and in the murder of 3,000 American citizens to put forth his facist agenda while he and his family and buddies are making billions - ethics anyone?
d) We are being raped through our tax dollars to benefit Bush* et al to buy more bombs to kill more children

You know I always thought you were a man because BearFartInTheWoods sounds like a name a man would use, a hunter perhaps or just someone who is gross. Women will always be victims until they CHOOSE to be otherwise.

it's the same thing in me that made me march to support equal rights and the freedom to choose. i want to make the world better. isn't that why we're here?

this is a battle i can fight....right here, right now. i don't need to elect anyone to fight for me or pass any law or rule to effect the future. it doesn't mean that i don't care about other things. i just don't find it particularly productive to sing with the chorus. another voice saying bush is incompetent isn't going to change anyone's mind here. but the people who protest the term bitch do change minds. we do convince people that maybe the freedom to use the word can be tempered by the realization that the word is hurtful to many many people in particular and hardly empowering to women in general.

also, i think it's rather sexist of you to assume i'm a woman because this issue is one of my issue. and just in case it comes up, even though i will also get involved with threads that reveal homophobia, i'm also straight.

gee...imagine that!! a straight white guy who cares about women and GLBTs. i come from a time when a good person was expected to stand with his or her brothers and sisters when needed. i'm not the only guy here like that either. if i thought i was, i would be gone from here in a flash.

anytime anyplace brother. :)

because I checked your profile... but you DO sound like a woman

You know, this is fine, its all very chiverestic (Sp?) of you, a man standing up for a woman and demanding equality for her and then in the same vein, trying to "protect" the woman from one of society's cruelnesses, defending the woman against other women and men. I think your heart is in the right place but I will stick to not being a victim myself of the moral right, the religious right or the politically correct police.

I really don't feel like women need or deserve a pat on the head for insisting upon different treatment, you know, be nice to me, don't call me names or I'll break or faint, etc. Women need to learn to DEAL with the world and not expect special treatment.

that you are completely not getting the point. I'm not asking for people to stop using "bitch" because I'm some delicate flower who might just faint. Rather I'm asserting myself for the right to a DU that is not awash in sexism.

and it will NEVER be - because majority of the minds on this board are free-thinking and not brainwashed and are not members of the 700 Club religious right. It is a board for liberals and liberals are the least sexist you can be. Go hang out at a few right wing boards and you will soon see what I mean. "They" don't like the fact that women serve in the military, that's a man's job ya know, they also like their women barefoot, home and pregnant (unless they have a high paying job) - these are sexist "ideas". They also don't like it when you're a woman and you have bad things to say about their soverign leader and he is a good moral Christian man and yet they do not hesitate to call you the worst words you can imagine. I have never taken offense to it, it shows their stupidity and helps me to realize that some people are just too damn brain-washed and stupid to even know any better. Words do not a sexist make in my opinion.

It was JUST a word - bitch-slapped, just a word that YOU and a FEW others took offense too while most other women said "big whoop". Its the demands that I don't take to and I also hate to see women feigning righteous indignation because they think they should. Women can and should and do stand up for themselves every day, all the time - take it, dish it out, walk away from it, whatever, but deal with it on an equal basis, and don't expect special or different treatment.

i'm really curious to hear that. is it because i don't call women bitches? is that the way real men talk? is my use of the words please and excuse me too feminine? gee... could it be that i say gee?

i use much different language here than i do in most situations. if i waS a church goer, i'd say i was using church speech. i do that out of respect for the others in the forum.


you have some pretty sexist ideas about women btw. i wish i could introduce you to she-bear. or i wish i had kept a copy of the blow by blow of the day she chased a real bear up a tree. i was a lot closer to fainting than she will ever be.

she doesn't need my protection but she does apprechiate that i stand by her.

I've seen threads where you've discussed the Iraq war and you definitely sounded like a man - had the man beating his chest tone as I remember and I only remember because I was wondering if you were really a liberal. Nevertheless - you were vehemently expressing your opinion - as were the others. Why is it then - when someone makes an expression that contains the word "bitch" - all of a sudden a few people find it "offensive". IT WAS A JOKE, A FUNNY, A LAUGH - that is all I believe.

We are all free (hopefully) to express our opinions are here. I'm not even a woman's libber or a feminazi as the right would probably call me. I also have a feeling that maybe Velma and some of the others may be quite young.

I'm just a single mother who has had her share and then some of bullshit and I took it and I gave it back and it made me strong and I get stronger every day and I do not take shit from anyone. I just think women need to buck up - and grow up. Sexism exists, no doubt about that, but using a slang term and getting offended to me is way over the top.

Everyone I deal with - daughter, ex-husband, boyfriend, friends, family - we say whatever to each other. I am treated with the upmost respect - but at the same time we can all have a good laugh when we call each other skanks and bitches and yangs and hemroids, etc. Lighten Up - Enjoy life and try not to take things so seriously. You could be a soldier in Iraq today........

Curse10 and Curse10sBitch

Curse10sBitch is really a hell of a guy.

I'm personally sick of this argument :-)

...are "comfortable" with being called bitches:

Are you speaking for ALL African-American women? 'Cause I've heard quite a few say over the years that they'd had it with all the "bitches and 'ho's" references in rap and hip hop. So where do you get off saying that African-American women are "comfortable" with that? Showing disprespect for women is not a part of African-American culture, or wasn't until fairly recently. Your argument that DU is trying to tell African-Americans how to behave is ludicrous.

And yes, I know many African-American women personally. I guarantee you not one of them likes to be called a bitch.

My vote (as perhaps you might remember, Skinner) is to ban "bitch" from DU.

Sure as hell wouldn't go along. And my mom would have washed his mouth out.

Are all these female rap stars self-hating? Sell-outs? Incapable of intelligent thought?

OR are the people who agree with you intellegent and just the people that disagree in need of help from white women?

Or worse. Either way, they are making money from hate speech and that is offensive.

You've not in the mainstream. That's just the numbers. The vast majority of younger African-American culture doesn't think those Hip-Hop culture are sell-outs. As a matter of fact, you'd be more likely to be thought of as a sell out for dissing Hip-Hop.

:eyes:

"The vast majority of younger African-American culture doesn't think those Hip-Hop culture are sell-outs."

The world is not ruled simply by younger culture. If that were the case, my mom would have had a belly-button ring. Politicians would proclaim that they are, "going fuck that mutha up," in a debate. And nuns would do a strip tease during church.

Much of my community is offended and appalled by hip-hop culture and misogyny.

Hip-Hop owns the charts in African-American culture. It has for more than 15 years. That's all that needs to be said.

That's all that needs to be said.

The vast majority of hip-hop artists understand the cultural context and used such slang.

They just don't like to admit it.

You are outside of the predominant cultural paradigm.

cadillacs. Sorry, you are STEREOTYPING black folks based on a small segment of their population and that is PREJUDICE.

Cornel West released a rap record.... kinda rap-jazz fusion.

Ooops.

Is Cynthia McKinney anti-black? She has a Hip Hop issues page on her campaign web-site.

call a woman a bitch?

My post was to prove Cornel West considers it so important that he made a rap record to reach out to young Black Hip-Hop fans.

By extension, Queen Latifah who wrote "You gotta let em know, you ain't a bitch or a ho" must, therefore NOT be part of the Rap/HIPHOP culture even though she was largely present at the outset and is considered one of the godmothers of rap. Arrested Development likewise, was present at the start..they must also have only cut records to demonstrate that they were self-loathing hip hoppers.

Demonstrate for me that Cynthia McKinney supports the use of the term BITCH to be appropriate in any context for all black women and you will havewon this argument.

If not, you are doing what is known as GRABBING.....a justification out if thin air

You abandon logic when you claim that when the vast majority of rappers use the same slang that it doesn't represent proper usage of words. It clearly does.

you are feigning expertise in an area where you have none.

is in order.

You're vomiting any rant you think will stick to the thread. They don't. They get disproven.

Already cited them in the previous posts.

Bakari Kitwana, do you recognize that name? You better if you're making this argument.

Here's the writer Farai Chideya responding to his book, echoing his argument against calling women "bitches":

This social warfare has hardened many black men, aiding and abetting the culture of hypermasculinity that permeates hip-hop. It's hard to be a sister and be down with the bitch/'ho lyrics, hard to be down with men who spout rhymes full of anti-female fury. Commercial hip-hop may appeal to young women who can pretend that the men are calling out someone else, but to an older head like myself it sounds as if they are speaking my name. I cannot listen to it. I cannot dance.

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16071

Here's the Rev. Al Sharpton at the Hip Hop Convention:

I had a discussion with a few rappers a while back, and I asked them why they use so much profanity and are so misogynistic in their music.

"Rev, we're like a mirror to society," one of the rappers said. "We are merely reflecting what we see."

"Well, I don't know about you, but I use a mirror to correct what's wrong with me," I told them. "I don't look in the mirror to see my hair messed up and my teeth need brushing and just walk out of the house that way. I use the mirror to fix me."

This hip-hop culture must use their music, their influence to correct what's wrong, not to continue to perpetuate what's wrong, not continue to promote what's wrong.

http://www.hiphopconvention.org/article85.html

You acting like you be flipping the scripts--Think about it. That's all.

How many female rappers are there versus the entire cohort of female African-Americans? Do female rappers represent all of African-American womanhood? Does popular music ever contain and represent any true picture of how an entire culture feels?

Let me ask you: are you African-American? Because if you're not, then I suggest you have no real knowledge of how African-Americans feel about this subject, and you're just basing you assertions on the content of popular music that you happen to have heard. It sounds to me like you think that rap and hip hop are all there is to African-American culture, and there is a very ignorant attitude.

And if you say you are African-American, then frankly I won't believe you, because the idea you are propounding is almost inconceivably ignorant, to me, and I cannot say here what I would think of an African-American person who would actually believe such tripe.

The poster should be careful.....once upon a time white people used to break out the watermelon and fried chicken based on logic like this.

Watching this argument unfold is like watching a future episode of Amos MC and Andy MC.

Billboard measures sales. Radio and Records measures airplay and request. Thefe are studies in each magazine that breakdown the buying and listening habits.

You're claim that Hip-Hop isn't the dominant force is African-Amercan culture is pointless to continue. The sales show it. The airplay shows it. The requests show it.

African-Amercians don't buy more jazz than Hip-Hop. or Gospel. Or Metal. Or Counry. or Salsa. Or MoTown oldies. Or Or Or. Do I have to list every form of music? No. It's a fact. Hip-Hop dominates African-American culture.

it issexist. Anytime you want to start picking apart the lyrics of rap songs, I'll be happy to outline the misogyny inherent in those lyrics.

You are trying to briong all these other factors into things to divert attent from the fact that the Encarta Dictionary and a predominant African-American culture considers the slang use of the term without offense.

They do. You're wrong.

I don't care what YOU think about Black culture. I care what Blacks think about Black culture.

being called a bitch...if you get more affirmative answers than slaps, I'll buy what you are selling. Sometimes the real juice of a point isin the practical application of it.

And I'll buy what you're selling.

like adults.

If people would display a little common courtesy around here we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

people who say other stuff can be jerks

wouldn't be the first or last jerky thing said here, and nearly every jerky thing said is contested. these things have a way of fixing themselves before it's off to the next controversy.

leave it be.

when a post or thread is BLATANTLY sexist (and youhave proven that you CAN know it when you see it) then lock it and let the thread start over (if it was in the threadstarter)

I have watched attitudes shift over time by debates concerning language.

Case in point and I am naming names since I KNOW the DU'er won't object. DarkPhenyx and I used to REALLY mix it up over language and terms such as "PC." Then one day someone asked if we should adopt language similar to that that Limbaugh uses in order to make our points and I responded that we should only if we want to BECOME Limbaugh...strangely enough DP and I found ourselves on the SAME SIDE of this debate.

Human beings eat, breathe, sleep and shit in language....I'd rather have conversations and flame wars that lead to people thinking even if it's at a later date than is apparent on the thread.

on edit: I DO prefer that obvious disruptors get banned and that is a practice of BEHAVIOR not words. :D

Without going into specifics, let me say that this thread might be regarded as mild in comparison. :eyes:

On edit: If there's anything that underlines the diligence of SKinner&Co in choosing a diverse moderator teams, representative of the best of DU, it's the breadth of discussion on such issues in the attempt to achieve consensus. Sometimes, it ain't pretty.

From what I have seen...threads turning into flame wars over usage remain unlocked for discussion as they should and threads which are blatently sexist and advocate violence or rape against women OR men have been locked... as is appropriate.

...when I'm not here to call you a "bitch" about it. ;-)

I do agree with you on this point however. Just because the discussion is heated and loud dosen't mean it isn't going anywhere. More often than not, after 30 - 40 posts, a thread that I'm neck deep in and seemed to be going nowhere ends up suddenly arriving at a concensus, and sometimes three or four.

If we don't talk about the difficult, complex, and often emotionally hot tpoics we are never going to come up with solutions.

As to banning the word "bitch"? I'm not one to advocate censorship in any form, but I'm just here for the beer and to piss off NSMA.

Lots in previous two threads from whites about why they feel it's okay for white people to decide what is and isn't appropriate in the context of word usage in African-American culture.

The latest was the defense of a statement that the female Encarta Dictionary editor must be white and must have sold out, because she's successful, and that it's impossible for "woman's" point of view or a "African-American" point of view to be successfully represented by a successful woman.

It represents a subculture of hip-hop and rap and not our entire culture.

But that doesn't matter because this is DU and on DU we have another culture. And that culture has community standards. You can't call us "niggers" any more than you should be able to call women "bitches."

Here's a link to Hip-Hop issues on Cynthia McKinney's campaign website.

Hip-Hop is mainstream enough that a Congressional Candidate has set aside an issues page for discussion of "Hip-Hop" issues.

"Cynthia McKinney is a strong advocate, mentor and supporter of the Hip-Hop community. Her unique popularity among the members of the Hip-Hop generation and young people across the United States of America has made her a trusted voice on behalf of producers, retailers and consumers of Hip-Hop entertainment.

Cynthia McKinney believes that the Hip-Hop community has the potential to evolve into one of the strongest movements on behalf of social justice and community development. Cynthia McKinney has fully endorsed the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network's (HSAN) 15-point national agenda."

http://cynthiaforcongress.com/issues/hip-hop.html

to call up or email Cynthia McKinney and ask her if she thinks the word bitch is acceptable.

Tha's all that need to be said.

Are you willing to find out for real whether Cynthia thinks the word bitch is ok?

That's all that need to be said. That's all I intend to say.

i guess she has no black culture.

"Shake her booty", huh?

Now I know how willing you white people are to degrade African-American culture to get what your white people have determined to be proper.

if everything you see and hear in a rap video is a valid and valuable expression of all black culture than there is nothing wrong with remarking that cynthia ain't got back.

You are only free to say that when you have permanently accepted the contect on which it's based.

In other words, you can't pick those terms up simply to use them against African-American culture. Then it's clear it's being said with hostility. Then it's clear the context is that of white culture to denigrade African-American culture.

It's like claiming you can use the n-word because African-Americans say the n-word to each other.

Church is another for instance. Care to count how many instances of us refering to women as "bitches" and "hos" in church?

Sorry, Cynthia McKinney's campaign website is not the final arbiter for the African-American community. I live here. I am part of it. And this is bullshit.

Cornel West released a rap record. Kinda rap-jazz fusion.

I don't believe in any racial test.

Thzt would make you the one who considers Cornel West a traitor bacuse he participates in Hip-Hop.

I personally tresure Cornel West.

Not our culture.

You aren't a part of the predominant cultural paradigm.

and fostering an environment where most women feel welcome. There is a real problem with women leaving DU or feeling unwelcome. Why not just exercise some discretion.

Why should we embrace hate speech?

Just an excuse for more white cultural imperialism.

based on a very small segment of the black population...that is STEREOTYPING and stereotyping is a precursor to bigotry.

I think for the next three days you should walk up to AA women and out of the blue ask them if they like being called a bitch and if they consider it part of their culture...I will bet dollars to donuts you get slapped far more than you get an affirmative answer.

"Cynthia McKinney is a strong advocate, mentor and supporter of the Hip-Hop community. Her unique popularity among the members of the Hip-Hop generation and young people across the United States of America has made her a trusted voice on behalf of producers, retailers and consumers of Hip-Hop entertainment.

Cynthia McKinney believes that the Hip-Hop community has the potential to evolve into one of the strongest movements on behalf of social justice and community development. Cynthia McKinney has fully endorsed the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network's (HSAN) 15-point national agenda."

http://cynthiaforcongress.com/issues/hip-hop.html

15 point national agenda. You are EXTRAPOLATING far too much from all of this.

I'm not saying she supports it and uses it, but it clearly doesn't bother her enough to protest the language used. That's because Cynthia McKinney understands the socila context from which it is generated, and you apparently don't.

I reiterate my dare from above...call her up and ask her how she feels about the use of the word bitch.

Cynthia McKinney is a strong advocate, mentor and supporter of the Hip-Hop community. Her unique popularity among the members of the Hip-Hop generation and young people across the United States of America has made her a trusted voice on behalf of producers, retailers and consumers of Hip-Hop entertainment.

Cynthia McKinney believes that the Hip-Hop community has the potential to evolve into one of the strongest movements on behalf of social justice and community development. Cynthia McKinney has fully endorsed the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network's (HSAN) 15-point national agenda.

http://cynthiaforcongress.com/issues/hip-hop.html

she supports that language and have now done it in several of your posts..unless of course this is your way of conceding the point and admitting you are wrong. ;-)

use the word "bitch", take that as you will...

do then fine. Heck, lots of white men in the south use the word nigger to describe blacks...is it a cultural thing or are they bigots?
One white supremacist group hold forth the righteousness of their ideals based on the fact that a black man belongs to their group...does that make their ideology correct or valid?

So I took it as you did research, found some anecdotal evidence to support your view and are now claiming an anecdote makes your view accurate.

Hardly scientific.

opinion. COP OUT.

If you have actual RESEARCH that supports your opinion, then you as the one making the charge are responsible for backing it up.

I KNOW some rap artists use the word bitch the same way I know some women sang songs that denigrated women back in the sixties because they were going along with the role playing.

It doesn't justify SHIT in my book.

go on do it, expand those horizons of yours...

One of which is you would like to anecdotally use lyrics from a female rapper to make your point. Since many of those rappers are young and are as green on the issue of life experiences as they are black, I would hardly use them as my role model for thinking and evaluating issues that affect my life.

I did not say impossible. I just pointed out something that most people would not disagree with...that getting ahead in a white-man's world often means buying into that culture. Not always. But often.

I note that you did not drag over my question about how many middle or working class black women were consulted before Encarta decided that bitch was not offensive to black women.

I also note that you didn't bring the answer to this thread to my question from the last thread about whether your full version of Encarta included the parentheticals about whether a definition is considered offensive like they had in the online version. I would really like to know whether the "Black English" definiton of bitch specifically said (not offensive).

How do you know African-American women aren't the named female lead editors? You don't. That's your bias that makes that assumption. Well, you're assumptions already made an ass out of you when you claimed women weren't involved in Encarta editing process.

You're track record on assumptions really sucks. I wouldn't keep making them.

And I already posted three times what the "Black English" Encarta definition was. Three different threads. I'm not a stunt typist. Go back and read what was already posted three times on three threads

and that the same information as the online version as to whether a definition is considered offensive is not included in the full version. Therefor you cannot categorically state whether that "Black English" definition is non-offensive.

You're having that misquoting problem again. I said that historically most editors have been men.

If you want to claim I would falsely type a dictionary definition into DU, it will cost you $50. I'll send a $50 and a xerox copy of my dictionary page to a third party. You send $50 to the same third party. If I'm wrong... that Black English Encarta definition has "offensive" or "taboo" in that "Black English" definition, you get the money. If I'm right the definition does not have "offensive" or "taboo" listed in the "black english" definition, I get the money.

I'm a cheap bastard. I'm looking right at the definition in my Encarta Dictionary. I wouldn't put money I don't have to risk if I wasn't 100% sure of being right. However, for me to tolerate this "challenge" Velma, you're gonna be paying me enough to go through the bullshit effort.

I'm tired of being called a liar by you. You willl put up the money, or you will permanently refrain from calling me a liar.

I did ask you a question more than once that you did not answer until a couple of posts ago. You answered sort of and I'm choosing to believe you typed exactly what was in your encyclopedia...that's what I said...that I choose to believe in your veracity...quite the opposite of calling you a liar.

You have actual Black people on here telling you how wrong you are on this subject, and yet you persist in these bizarre assertions that because Cornel West made a rap album and Cynthia McKinney supports the hip hop community that ALL African-Americans approve of the use of the word "bitch". What does it take to make you see the obvious fact that a few names do not speak for the Black "community," if there is such a thing as you seem to conceive of it in your ignorant whiteboy way. That is the most illogical, irrational, most poorly reasoned argument I have EVER encountered on this board.

Trust me: I can give you the names of half a dozen Black women I am acquainted with who would smack you if you called them a bitch. This is a fact. "Bitch" is not mainstream just because it's mainstream in hip hop.

The vast majority of African-Americans use the same slang, and you deny it. The Hip-Hop chart is all covered with with the recordings, and you still claim it's not true.

Pointing out that the vast majority of Hip-Hop records freely are comfortable using such slang as non-offensive manner is simply a fact of that culture.

I suppose anthropologists are doing nothing but steroetyping cultures when they study and describe what they find?

stereotype, and why the hell aren't you listening to african-americans in this thread? I'd take their words over yours anyday.

totally disrespect Christians with your headline. Taking the Lord's name in vain..... double standard much?

:silly:

(in a wierd clinical sort of way)

Here you are going on about how whites who object to the use of the word bitch are dissing A-A culture, and how "it isn't appropriate for white people to decide what is and isn't appropriate in the context of word usage in African-American culture."

Yet earlier on one of the threads, I believe that you said that you, yourself are white. And here you are telling MuddleoftheRoad - who is black - how all African-Americans (or at least the "mainstream ones" :eyes: ) feel about the word bitch.

I think your logic circuits have failed.

Banning such a word would be utterly stupid to do singly.

Either install a censorship list filter (f**k, s**t, c**t, b***h, a*****e, j*****s, etc and so on) or don't.

This one word BS is just that.

you're making it too thick.

If someone is alerting on every mention of the word, boot THEM for abusing an alert. If they were targeted by the word, boot the person who called them that.

Keep your editorial control.

If I want to say Ann Coulter is a b***h, who cares?

We should ban all the words you mention. DU just has to turn on a filter.

should the word by universally banned? FUCK NO. What other "evil" words should be banned?

However, if soeone is clearly using the word in an excessively offensive way, then that post can be alerted, and mods can try to decide what action should be taken, in each context.

You should be able to say whatever you want.

Oh, I guess it's OK because someone dared to disagree with you. I find your post extremely condescending and offensive.

Sometimes bitch is used to describe women who are owned by pimps and sometimes it is just a joke. these kind of statments should not be used but I think we should not ban the word bitch at DU.

There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.

i'm a bastard

Main Entry: 1bas·tard
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old Frisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind
1 : an illegitimate child
2 : something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3 a : an offensive or disagreeable person -- used as a generalized term of abuse b

... you have no credibility on this issue. Regardless of what the dictionary says, "bastard" is applied to men more often than bitch is to women.

I love it when men tell me how I should think and not be offended by sexist terms. :nopity:

... they are perceived to be sexist against women.

That is why I just think damn near everyone on your side of the debate is just a flaming hypocrite. I never hear anyone complain about "bastard" or "prick" or "dick". No, those words are fine.

first off I'm on slink's side on this and I have argued that those words perpetuate a stereotype about men on more than one occasion.

Second, tell me when any of those words have been used to help oppress men as a class?

you madam are a BASTARD!!

nope really doesn't fit. sorry.

Main Entry: 1bas·tard
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old Frisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind
1 : an illegitimate child
2 : something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3 a : an offensive or disagreeable person -- used as a generalized term of abuse b : MAN, FELLOW
- bas·tard·ly adjective

If it were up to me, I'd forbid the use of "bitch" against female politicans or high profile women, and against DUers here, and the word "bitchslap."

However, I would concede on the context of the word "bitch" as in to complain bitterly.

It has NO shock value the 205th time it's posted. It's gotten boring.

:nopity:

Yup. Women's concerns are just too blase for words. :eyes:

as for what skinner said above...I'd forbid the use of the word "bitchslap" and calling high-profile women "bitches," but I would concede on the word "to bitch" as in to complain even though it brings to mind of a woman complaining.

I'm betting I'm closer to the truth.

:shrug:

Indiscriminantly throwing the terms "sexist" and "misogynist" at the drop of a hat with little basis is a serious issue.

Yup. We're all just man haters. Whatever.

Insults that imply a man is not a man is actually insulting to women. Examples include phrases like these.

Jack should grow some balls and stand up for himself.

(Some people don't come with balls, and they're genuinely courageous; why is it acceptable to insult someone's courage by using a metaphor that refers to femaleness?)

Jack whined like a little girl.

(news flash. small children of all genders whine. But why add the "little girl" element? Isn't enough to say that Jack is behaving like a whiny three year old? And to compare Jack to a child of three doesn't insult the three year old because every three year old whines at least sometimes. Ask any parent.)

Note that the above two examples are actually insulting to men. But they're also demeaning to women and it makes a statement about what values the person using these insults have. The values are that men are better than women and that calling someone a woman or implying that someone is a woman is insulting.

If you want to say that someone is a whiny coward, be courageous enough to call them a whiny coward.

that's why I'm fine with gender-neutral insults because it's about the behavior, not the gender, of the person.

are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior."

How do you know this? How could you possibly know this? You are talking about people's intentions and assumptions.

I have already stated my views on this topic on a previous thread. Both then and now I've been troubled by the willingness of people to tell me what I think and why I make the choices I do. It reminds me of the right wing's constant attempt to define us ("liberals hate America," "liberals criticize the government because they're commies"). One comment here on DU to which I couldn't reply because the thread had been locked suggested that those who didn't agree with the poster's views on "bitch," etc., were either intentionally nasty or didn't have a good command of the English language. THAT'S the kind of thing I find offensive: "If you don't agree with me, you must be a jerk or stupid."

I'll say it again. If I don't share your premise, it is not surprising that I come to a different conclusion than yours. (Analogy: if I don't believe abortion is murder, I can't share with someone who does the belief that abortion must be outlawed.)

I don't share your premises(that using "bitch" is sexist, that "bitch" is a put-down of women as a group). I've come to a different conclusion about using it than you have. Please don't tell me that I'm using it "on purpose" to put down women. You could not possibly know what motivates my choices, yet you are assuming extremely negative things about me.

Thank you Slinkerwink for such a good, clear essay on the sexism of using "bitch".

down so that Skinner and the administrators can hopefully see why the word "bitch" is sexist.

Now, if someone uses it towards a fellow poster, then it's crossing the line. But what is the harm of calling Bush "Cheney's bitch" or using the phrase "bitch slap?"

It's really become a gender neutral word, and I don't like the idea of censoring it. We're an angry bunch because of the bullshit happening in the world, and damnit, I think we have a right to let the expletives fly!

about a fucking word?

Skinner, this is an embarassing joke.

On edit: I respectfully request the sticky be removed from this thread so those that have more important discussions to conduct can hide this thread.

We don't have to take women's concerns seriously. :eyes:

... as long as it is about women. Sexism against men is fine.

I didn't get it.

First of all, I don't see anything close to unanimity among women, even on DU, on this particular issue. Second of all, to generalize the issue of the use of the word 'bitch' on DU to cover ALL "women's concerns" is a grandiose broad brush, to say the least. Finally, I seem to detect a strangely reactive kind of sexism in the implication that ony females are somehow qualified to identify sexism. As a male who has dedicated a significant part of both my professional and personal life working to eradicate sexism in the workplace and violence against women (SARC), I could take offense. But I won't. Offense can only be taken; it cannot be given.



Did you know a 'ship' is female? The proper pronoun for a ship is 'she.' English also inherits the influences of grammatical gender from French, German, and Spanish. There is NOTHING inherently sexist about either gender or gender-specific terms. Is it sexist to refer to a ship as 'she'?? Of course not.

Sexism is based on generalization -- the implication that one is either superior or inferior merely due to their gender. The use of a single word like 'bitch' does not imply that.

However, I strongly disagree that it's somehow OK to call anyone a 'bitch' (or 'prick'). To call Hannity (or any male) a 'bitch' would cross the sexism line, imho. Indeed, it would be sexist to say "Hannity wears a skirt." Why? Because applying a 'female' term to a male as an insult is to imply that mere female-ness is insulting. That's sexism. It's the same if one were to call Ann Coulter a "prick," imho. Or, conversely, if one were to say (in a complimentary way) that Cynthia McKinney or Hillary Clinton "has balls" then I'd call that sexist. I see sexism in crossing the gender line with the implication that superiority or inferiority is somehow gender-related.

I also think it's sexist to call women names that imply that they are inferior because they are women. If it is sexist to call Hannity a bitch because it implies he is an inferior female...then using that word to refer to a woman is also sexist because you are calling her an inferior female.

... between implying that ALL women are "bitches" and calling ONE woman a "bitch." The former is unquestionably sexist, imho, but the latter is merely a crude insult.

Again, English (although less than many other languages) has gender-specific terms. When those terms are used in a manner to disparage an entire gender, that's sexism. When those terms are used in a gender-congruent sense to demean a single individual, that's not inherently sexist.

If ALL females (or males) see the disparagement of ONE female (or male) as sexist, then I would call that a viewpoint infected with sexism itself.

you are disparaging the entire gender because you are insulting her for being a woman.

If you want to insult a woman for her individual attitudes or behavior there are words you can use that do not insult her purely on the basis of her sex.

How much clearer could it be?

Do we have separate terms for males and females? Hell yes! Even the terms 'male' and 'female' are separate terms. If you're going to argue that separate (even in language) is inherently unequal, you might only get a theoretical/academic agreement from me. But unless you're willing to eliminate even the separate gender-related words 'male' and 'female' from our language then war to remove such 'separate but equal' terminology is doomed to never fully succeed.

Do blatant sexists use terms like 'bitch' and 'prick'? Yes. Is everyone a sexist who uses such terms? No. Sexists use terms like 'women' and 'men' too. :shrug:


The sad fact is that even on DU people have limited vocabularies ... typically a far smaller one for words we use ourselves than ones we recognize. It's been estimated that an educated Japanese has a vocabulary of from 12,000 to 15,000 kanji characters. That doesn't count vocabulary based on the three phonetic alphabets, either. (It takes a knowledge of about 10,000 kanji to read at the level of a normal newspaper.) Americans have an everyday speaking/writing vocabulary on the order of about 5,000 words ... and maybe on the order of about 25,000 words in reading and listening. We eliminate words from this collection at a risk to our ability to communicate ... even "offensively."

female gender that is being put down by the usage of this word!

Here's why: It's gender-neutral. I don't know what the uproar over here is, but the term "bitch" is used for both males and females. I've been called a bitch before, and I'm a male. I say stuff all the time like "GWB is a bitch" and stuff. If we start banning stuff like this, then what's next? Where do you draw the line? I used to post in another forum, and all there was was a lot of cencoring. It was like the website was taken over by RW fundies or something. I hate cencoring, especially if it applies to a word that is gender-neutral.

I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill. There's bigger problems in the world than to worry about the phrase "bitch slap". Wasting bandwith to talk about these petty issues is ridiculus. We need to focus on all the shit that the bitch GWB is doing in Iraq now instead of worry about this.

I agree with fishnfla on this one. (post above)

much to recommend it these days.

It crosses the line from a word which I personally don't like (bitch), but can live with, to a term that trivializes or normalizes violence towards women (bitch-slap.) That takes it beyond my personal preferences to something we as a group definitely shouldn't tolerate. The general meaning of this term is a guy slapping "his bitch" because she got out of line. I know some people enamoured of using the term give it other meanings, but this is the widely accepted meaning.

So, if we allow bitch-slap, we should also allow black-slap, cripple-slap, gay-slap, and {all the lovely little cute words that denote these groups}-slap.

If someone asks me do I like them calling women bitches, I'll say no, and if they generally act like boorish jerks in addition to that, I'll eventually put them on ignore. If they call women the C word, they go on ignore immediately. It was only when the -slap got added, that I said we gotta do something about this as a group.

A LOT of women on DU have told me offline, and also remarked online, that DU is a sexist place. To me, allowing the term bitch-slap invites bad vibes. MOST women object to this term. There have been many threads where people have objected, and I bet given 1/2 hour I could come up with 100 names of people who have objected. Give me more time, I'll come up with lots more. To me, that's significant.

Yes, bitch-slap should be banned. That's my vote. Especially from thread titles. But I don't know why it came to a vote. I appreciate that you are addressing the issue, and I thank you for that. But I'd have preferred you made the executive decision to ban it, the way I presume you banned gratuitous use of the N word. For example, would you let someone start a thread "Colin Powell is a n*gger" ? I suspect not. But starting a thread "John Dean is bitch-slapping George Bush" is OK? Both are offensive and create a hostile environment on DU for blacks and women respectively.

post. Bitch slap should be banned. It implies violence against women if funny and it's not.

That, to me, is far more sexist. It carries with it the implication that female-ness itself is an insult to a male. Like it or not, English is not 100% gender neutral. Anyone who's studied Spanish, German, French, or many other languages, however, will find them to be far more gender-specific.

As I've said before, I regard it as sexist to say "Hannity wears a skirt" in exactly the same sense as "Hannity is a bitch." At the same time, it's NOT sexist to claim the "Coulter wears a skirt" any more than it's sexist to say "Coulter is a bitch." Just to cover the bases, I wouldn't regard it as sexist to say "Hannity is a prick" or that "Hannity has balls" or "Hannity wears the pants." I would, however, regard it as sexist to say "Coulter is a prick" or that "Hillary has balls" or that "Barbara Bush wears the pants."

The implication that a person is superior or inferior merely due to their gender or a gender-related characteristic is sexism. When the term used to describe a person has the same gender as the person, then gender just isn't an issue.

a term that insults women because they are women as long as I'm a woman? And that isn't sexist? *confused look*

That is exactly what you just said.

Sorry, but I don't agree that the term "bitch" does that.

Again, there's a loosely parallel term: "Prick." We (crudely) use "bitch" when the subject is female and the term "prick" when the subject is a male. The insult is the same. It's not an insult because of gender any more than calling someone a "hero" is because they're male. It's about alleged behavior and character of an individual -- NOT GENDER.

People are called "bitch" or "prick" because of some antisocial behavior, not because all females or males are antisocial.

In no way does claiming "Coulter is a bitch" imply that "all women are bitches." That's what I hear people saying when they say it's sexist to call Couther a "bitch." Sexism is about a gender generalization, not about gender in language.

While one could somewhat validly argue that Western civilization is historically patriarchal ... and that Western languages accentuate a gender-related ("Mother Earth") world view, attaching success in the 'war' against sexism to the eradication of all gender-related terminology is a sure way to lose that war, imho. This is why I offer the following as a reference point:

Sexism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Sexism as a belief can refer to three subtly different beliefs:

1. The belief that one sex is superior to the other.
2. The belief that men and women are very different and this should be strongly reflected in society, language, and the law.
3. The belief that men and women are slightly different, besides superficial biological differences.

Most dictionaries regard the first two beliefs as sexist, but the third belief as generally not sexist. Some people, particularly masculists, hold that only the first belief is sexist. Most feminists also hold that the third belief is sexist. It has been suggested that some people who hold that all three beliefs are sexist in fact support laws which provide legal discrimination based on sex.

Sexism can also refer to simple hatred of men (misandry) or women (misogyny).

In practice, people's beliefs range along a continuum from the first position, which is the most sexist, to the third position, which is least sexist. For example, some people believe that women should have equal access to all jobs except a few religious positions. Others believe that while women are superior to men in a few aspects, in most aspects men are superior to women.

Sexist beliefs are a species of essentialism, which holds that individuals can be understood (and often judged) based on the characteristics of the group to which they belong, in this case, their sex group (male or female).

Fight War #1 FIRST. Then, when successful, start War #2 if it's still worth fighting. Then again, when successful, start War #3 if it's still worth fighting.

I see the argument about "bitch" to belong in War #3 at best. I personally think War #1 and War #2 are worth fighting. As far as War #3 is concerned, I merely say "Vive la difference!!"

People who use those words in an inappropriate manner can be dealt with by alerting the mods. I don't like censorship, and I don't like the idea of DU advocating it. Yes, "bitch-slap" is an ugly phrase, and calling another DUer a "bitch" is unacceptable. I won't debate the nuances of the word's usage, nor will I post a long ranting opus that most people scroll through.

No word-banning. Let the mods and admins deal with abusive people like they always have. You guys have been good at it so far.

-Jay-

The point of this site was to create a progressive discussion board dedicated to 86'ing Bush.

We are now spending the better part of an afternoon debating NAME CALLING which is hardly a progressive principle..and has LARGELY been the cannon fodder of the right.

While I still don't think the words should be banned and prefer to debate their usage with the user, anyone else think we are arguing FOR becoming that which we resist?

I believe this topic has just now been fully addressed.

Drinks are on me, NSMA. Well done.

crusades. Sometimes when new patterns of thought are adopted, the old ideas are replaced by an extreme version of their opposite. The conversion model. It's probably a natural part of development. In fact it's healthy because it shows someone is not locked into holding on to old beliefs. Hopefully they don't get locked down while in the pendulum upswing either, but use whatever process needed to reach a balanced view. I don't think liberals are 'lefties'. I think we are balanced. At least that's my hope.

This seems rather silly to me. I'm female, I use bitch in all shape and form. I don't like it when it is used as a synonym for any female but I then can feel free to make a judgment about the person writing and consider the source. There are far more offensive terms. I personally find "rule of thumb" irritating -but I tend to assume most folks don't know its origin.

I think we have far, far more important things to discuss right now-My suggestion would be to table this until Kerry is elected.

How about a languagebot that wanders aimlessly through DU picking on everyone's grammar, mechanics, diction? Issuing warnings and preventing us from speaking openly.

Or maybe you can set DU to "CHURCHLADY" mode. Like the ignore button. Push the button and it cleans up the text automatically.

Better yet, force us all to go to charm school.

Otherwise, I will say what I think.

I have never been one for letting rules stand in the way of expressing my opinions.

when referring to Ann Coulter.

like monster, depraved, asshole, freeper, scary person, demon out of hell, etc.

Just don't call her any gender-specific insults.

Ann Coulter is a bitch.

The word "dick" has a negative connotation and is applied solely to males. Should such a word be banned?

As a male, my personal opinion is no.

Nor do I think any slur, no matter how disgusting it is, should be banned.

The function, not the content, of our text is what should be judged. If one is being overly hostile and aggressive to another DUer, that should be the criterion getting him or her warned/banned, not the actual words used in the hostile manner.

There, my hat is in the political bitch ring...

There are a lot of insults that are used only against men.

I think all insults should be allowed for people like Ann Coulter but not against other DUers or elected officials

I hear women calling men "assholes" all the time. You think that's right? If you do, then you're a hypocrite.

:shrug:

when it's used as a pejorative for men. I can't think of one time that anyone has referred to a woman as a "dick", so it's pretty gender-specific, dontcha think? Should DU ban that particular usage as well?

I call them idiots ;-)Idiot's a gender-neutral insult, anyway.

But should it be banned here for the same reasons that you stated above about the word "bitch"? If no, why not?

Just saying that you don't do it didn't answer my question. I have never called anyone a "bitch" here, nor have I used the term "bitch-slap". So what? I'm still against censoring DU. The mods & admins can be alerted if someone is being abusive. Barring that, I see people get schooled for using those terms here all the time. (some of said "schooling" coming from you!) ;) Still, there are ways to deal with people who use terms like that which are more palatable than banning a stupid word.

...whenever someone describes another person whose gender I do not know with the term asshole, I immediately think male.

I do think at base asshole is gender neutral, but perhaps some people associate it with a certain gender.

Regardless, all assholes stink!

but not OK to be hostile to one.

You are right in saying that a group (i.e.more than 1) of women have taken offense to the word "bitch". However, not all women have said that they personally think bitch is offensive.

This poses a problem because we are going to have to start splintering us off into groups declaring what words offend us.

For example, say you and I and a couple other people aren't a fan of a word that is commonly used and no other people are offended by it. Are we to thus ban said word because of our protests?

like African-Americans have coopted the word "n*gger" and made it positive to lessen the damage of that word. However, if a man wants to call a woman a bitch based on her gender, should he also have the right to call a black person a n*gger based on his or her race?

I usually put the person on ignore if they use slurs. That's a red flag they don't have much to say. But one, I've heard from a lot of women who complain about sexism on DU. And two, this term (bitch-slap) promotes a violent culture toward women, so I had to speak up.

And it was just blatantly used as a thread title, as though so many people hadn't already said please stop just hours before!

If a hundred men came to me and said, please stop using this term, it is offensive to men as a gender, I'd stop. It never would have come to banning something. I'd have done it voluntarily.

That's what happened here, but only partially. At least a hundred women on DU (and lots of great men, too) have said please stop using this term, it's offensive toward women as a gender. And a group of men (and one woman) have decided to fight us to the death rather than just say, OK, I'll be respectful of you and use one of the thousand other words at my disposal.

If bitch, then what next. Honestly, some people are just way too sensitive.

Me, I don't like being called cupcake. The use of a word to intentionally degrade and demean a woman's intelligence. Ban that.

etc. The biggest problem I have with these words is not even the words but the reasoning behind why it is "okay" to use them. In other words it is the total lack of understanding or inability to empathize with those of us that these words offend. It is that same reasoning that says that I can do what is hurtful and offensive to others because I just don't get it but I will disguise my reasoning by saying it is about freedom of speech. Many of us probably do not understand how calling sport teams by Native American names is offensive. Even though we might not be able to "see" it, it does not make the harm and offfensiveness less to those who are directly involved. Negative and stereotypical words of and about women are so pervasive and such a part of our culture that denying these terms will most probably change nothing and just make many angry and sulky. I, of course, will continue to express my opinion and call them what they are and perhaps I might get some to see my point of view. I would say that here on DU I would have the best chance to effect that impact.

or unwillingness.

The thing is, if so many people told me a phrase about men was bothering them, I'd stop using it. No questions asked. The language is FULL of alternatives to use. And a LOT of people have said they don't like "bitch-slap." This isn't people telling them how to live their lives. It's people saying, hey, this hurts, can you please stop? And instead of even, OK, I don't think it's so bad, but if it means that much to you, I'll stop using it, were met with such a lack of compassion - and civility - it's quite astonishing.

DU can be a frat house. Or it can be a place where people of every gender, race, ethnic group, and sexual orientation are respected - and welcomed.

place.

I think it would be more positive if particular words were not chosen on purpose rather than not used because they were forbidden.

for posting already-it is always the context of the use of what some may consider offensive that should be considered.

I'm sure everyone can find something personally offensive here, 24/7.
Let's leave things as they are because it works very effectively.

Bitch, bitch, bitch-sheesh, it's always the context imo.

... when no other word is quite so appropriate.

Still, those times really are relatively few. Since it's apparently a concern, maybe we can agree to watch ourselves and be ready to accept responsibility for our own words if they offend.

The majority of men in here want to keep on calling women "bitches"----it has to make you think, doesn't it, Skinner?

and the three other no's are from women. I would love to put this to a vote on whether DU is considered to be sexist by women. I know, because I find it a sexist place to be.

And what's the name of the psychic power you have that can determine a person's gender over the Internet? That must be awesome.

then ban "prick," "asshole," "dick," "media whore," "fucker," "cock," "fucktard." I fidn those words offensive. Better yet...let's just ban all "bad words". Let's turn this website into a RW Fundie site! :eyes: </sarcasm>

and "fucktard" in here----a lot like FR. We can be so much better than FR by not dragging down men or women based on their gender by calling them gender-specific insults.

Whatever.

That's really what we're asking for here...a little bit of that sensitivity that is supposed to be a halmark of the left.

Or actually tilt further to men supporting "bitch-slap." Far more men than women think "bitch-slap" is fine. And more importantly, a LARGE number of women object to the term. But I just wanted to add, a lot of wonderful men object to the term, as well. We aren't asking for the world, just a little respect.

From my declaring that censorship in all its forms is wrong, you cannot conclude that I take pleasure in and want to continue calling women "bitches". In fact, if you search all of my posts on DU, I would be surprised if I have ever uttered the word "bitch" outside of these posts.

You are deliberately misrepresenting my argument for your own purposes, not a very honest maneuver.

should allow some of the racist and homophobic members here to use the "n*gger" word and the "FAGGOT" word, and the word "CUNT" too.

It is impossible to use these words out of a hostile and aggressive context. Well, perhaps an argument could be made for "n*gger" if one were to assume that it can be seen as a term of comraderie between african-americans (a view I don't ascribe to).

Bitch is a term generally used to describe an annoying or rude female. Just as dick, cock, etc. is used to describe an annoying or rude male.

If you want to ban bitch, you must necessarily ban those other words because they serve the same function in our lexicon.

And you know what? After bitch is banned people will then convey their feelings lingusticly by saying "that nagging woman" or "that obnoxious man". Such phrases are offensive, but should they be banned?

Then DU will be more completely a place where Ted Nugent would be comfortable, instead of only partially.

1. The politics of the n-word seem complicated: one might sometimes be told "you can call me *the n-word* but never use the word except by invitation." I expect the politics of the b-word could be subtle: there is a recent neo-fem X-gen book having b-word as title.
2. Politics is all about making friends. There is no gain offending folks by profanity or personally insulting them by the b-word. And there's usually an alternative to brushing our teeth with toes.
3. I conclude: if some group really is offended or insulted by vulgar use of the b-word, scrap it. For me, the major election04 issues go far beyond use of this word, and DU may represent much more than an cyber-opportunity for cussing.

<edit: typography>

Thanks.

This is ridiculous. Next it will be "fuck" and then "shit". This
is a slippery slope. Lets not go there. The word "C**t" is already
forbidden, though it is common british gutter-swearing...

Pretty soon, we can forbid the word "lady" as it is demeaning to
women and then we're on to a silly political correctness streak that
totally undermines someone unloading their true feelings.