U.S. Faces Tough Urban Battle in Fallujah - Shit

many of us were predicting last spring?

I hope not, but I suppose it was just a matter of time before our guys got trapped in some kind of "knife-fight in a phonebooth" situation

The urban environment greatly reduces our technological advantage. I would be surprised to see US forces do street by street fighting. Maybe lightning raids to points in cities, or cordoning off areas but not clearing them out. Commanders will probably avoid urban combat as much as possible.

"Insurgents usually fire and run. This time they're digging in, which is the first time we've seen them do that," Ebert said.
...
The Americans, by coming here, have harmed us," said Ahmad Mashhan. "We are not armed people and we are not terrorists but we are suffering from the siege."

Asked how long it would take to seize the whole city, the Marines' McGolwan replied: "As long as it takes."

Here's a little list that me and some friends (we're amateur strategists and history buffs so take it for what its worth) put together of how urban combat affects US forces:

Armour: Very inneffective in an urban environment. The thing that tanks are hurt by most is when infantry can get up close and personal to the tanks and are able to use various anti-tank weapons like Molotovs or attaching explosives to the tracks directly etc. The cramped quarters also vastly hamper mobility, speed, manueverability, and range, the things that the M1 Abrahms are renown the world over for. The heavy cannon that most tanks mount is also while a very impressive weapon not really the best thing to use in close quarters against infantry, sort of like using an anvil to kill a bunch of roaches. The only thing a tank can really do in an urban environment is provide heavy fire support against buildings for infantry, and there are better things available for that.

Mech. Infantry: About as effective as armour. The APCs can provide solid, moving cover for their squads as well as fire support, but the lack of area to manuever in and use their speed as well as the close quarters and plentiful cover make these vehicles more of a liability than an asset.

Artillery: Effective in open ground or less dense areas because of the lack of civilian structures in the area. Artillery tends to make a mess of whatever is on the receiving end of it and because US doctrine as well as the mission requires keeping civilian casualties and property damage low, the only artillery that is really effective is anything man-portable, which is NOT on the higher end of what is available for use. Beyond that, the collateral damage that would inevitably be caused outweighs the benefits of their usage. Cruise missiles also fall under the same problems that conventional artillery suffers from, causing more collateral damage than they are worth.

Air Power: Helicopters, as was well demonstrated in Somalia, are not the best idea to use in a hostile urban environment due to their low altitudes of flight and lack of speed compared to other aircraft. While these factors make them very good gun platforms, they are NOT desireable in an urban environment where cover is plentiful and a stationary target usually ends up dead. Jet aircraft are another matter entirely. These can move at high speeds and hit targets with effective ease with little threat of being hit back. However, the damage cause by a miss, not to mention the density of population and structures, makes munitions used by them less effective than they would be in other situations.

Infantry: Of all that the US Armed Forces have in their arsenal, this is the best for use in an urban environment for the reasons of that they are not as hampered by the terrain as vehicles are, they are take full advantage of cover, and are really the only thing we've got that can hold ground effectively. US infantry are also very well-equipped and trained, capable of holding their ground in cover against enemy forces many times their numbers, as was also demonstrated in Somalia. However, the only infantry that are really effective are those deployed on foot. Mechanised infantry, due to the vulnerability of their APCs, lose their advantage of mobility that the carriers give them thus making their role as mechanised troops practically useless. Air cavalry (helicopter-carried troops) run into the vulnerabilities that helicopters have in an urban environment that, if they should go in alone and unsupported, are in very real danger of being cut off. Paratroops, for obvious reasons, are out of the question. That leaves only conventional infantry that, while highly trained, are likely to be outnumbered by the enemy, hampered by that they are entering territory that their foes have lived in their whole lives and they are unfamiliar with, the very nature of the fact that the enemy can hide among the civilian population or use civilians to assist in the fighting knowing the US' desire NOT to inflict casualties on civilians, as well as the disadvantage in numbers which would easily mean that a war of attrition would be a disaster, to say the least.

In Summary:

US troops fighting in an urban environment will be facing serious disadvantages that vastly outweigh the advantages possessed by them. Any urban campaign undertaken by US troops must be done so only if no other option is available and with overwhelming numbers of troops.

I suspect this is evidence as to the answer.

Tank shells into neighborhoods probably won't win many friends...

Wasn't transferred there. She was supposed to move from Bagdad to Fallujah. As a nurse, she is probably relative safe in Bagdad. It doesn't appear that anyone is safe in Fallujah.

even if they "pacify" Fallujah...it will become the rallying cry for
millions...if not tens of millions.
We're bringing about the deserved hatred...

The tanks cant get in tight alleys, but combined with the air support, the insurgents should be out-gunned.

Its sound more like Viet Nam everyday, fucking body counts.....

They are going to be even more angry and violent.

We could level the whole thing and sow the earth with salt, but only the Romans ever were able to pull that off. Historically you can't pacify a city unless you are willing to kill off a large chunk of the population and destroy most of the city in the process. That is how it always turned out in drawn out sieges and protracted urban battles. The only times a city has ever fallen to an assault in the last century is when it is taken quickly by being isolated and cut-off. Every single time the defender was able to dig in, they won.

Everyone knows that people love americans at gunpoint.... not.

Boy these military turds really are stupid... and pathetic.

The opposition knows that whomever wants to stay and take casualties
will lose the next election... good thing bush wants to stay.

Our military reservists can't be prepared for CQB.

all HELL is breaking loose.

the insipid chimp is on vacation...

We got Saddam, there were no WMDs, time to declare victory and scram.

With Apache and tank support.... The Marines are going to kick ass which means that for every dead Marine there will be 50 dead Iraqi's and many more civilians.... This is bad folks but don't think for a moment that the Marines are out-gunned....

I'd bet some of these troops are fresh from training. All gung-ho and full of piss and vinegar. For months drill sergeants have been brainwashing these kids. Now, set loose on the battlefield of downtown Fallujah, these kids will wreck havoc on the innocent city dwellers.

There will be hell to pay. With interest. I am ashamed of my country for this death and destruction.

A viewpoint we haven't heard in the U.S. about the Fallujah situation:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1621223

AMY GOODMAN: Today we turn to Ghazwan Al-Mukhtar, a retired Iraqi engineer in Baghdad right now, recently in Fallujah. Welcome to Democracy Now!, Ghazwan.

GHAZWAN AL-MUKHTAR: Thank you, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: It's good to have you with us. Can you describe the reaction in the streets to what took place in Fallujah?

GHAZWAN AL-MUKHTAR: This incident happened in Fallujah where two days before that, the American army shot many many people, women and children, on the streets, and --- in a bizarre shooting incident that was unjustified, killing many people. Fallujah has been a place where the US Army has actually used brutal force to suppress the people there, including using the F-15s, and F-16s to attack villages and place where they think the resistances are, which is unjustified to use high explosives against individuals. This resulted in many, many casualties in the province. Added to it, they have detained, for 50 or 60 days, hundreds of people on and off, which alienated the people against the American forces and the American contractors or the American security contractors, which are really a private army, uncontrollable by the US. This is part of the privatization of the war. . .

seems to be our policy.

you know the neoCONs must be ITCHIN to pull the trigger...



peace

becoming just WAY BEYOND URGENT!!! CONTACT SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, in the media, in government. This is NO TIME TO BE SILENT. We have to let them know that there are oodles and oodles and oodles of people here in this country who hate what's going on and want it stopped. And want it accurately reported - even if the truth (and the mounting collection of body bags - I mean TRANSFER TUBES) hurts.

Do it for Mari333 and her step-son, if not for yourself or your country. And DON'T SAY IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD! THE ONLY TIME IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD IS WHEN WE KEEP SILENT ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!

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