Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 4)

I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

This is thread #4 on this subject. Here are links to Thread #1, Thread #2, and Thread #3.

I do think the word should be allowed to refer to right wing people like Coulter and Dr. Laura. These women repudiated feminism anyway, why should they be treated with the respect that feminists fought to bring to women?

In fact, with regard to Coulter, I would up the ante and allow the four letter c-word to describe her.

the sexism against the entire female gender, like calling black people "n*ggers" perpetuates racism against african-american people. Do I hear people calling Colin Powell or Condi Rice "n*ggers" in here? No, I don't. "Bitch" should not be used against ANY woman or man.

No shock effect after #20. Definitely tedious and boring after #206

should not be used here.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Really? I certainly support her for trying to make her point. And I agree with her.

:shrug:

Do a search of Skinkerwink's name, and then rotate various really ugly insults, and see all the time Slinkerwink has posted these exact same types of rants on threads.

She rotates the outrageous insults she uses, but the posts say the exact same thing. And I'm sure there's more than 200 of them.

repetition denotes acceptance unless it's protested. i want people to protest the usage so it becomes as rare as nigger and faggot. i want reasonable people to abandon the word out of consideration and respect.

if that happens, when my spitfire niece grows into a smart, assertive, aggressive woman anyone who calls her a bitch will be easily identified as a misogynistic asshole because normal people will have abandoned it's use.

This is DU, not a graduate seminar on feminist theory. I come here to kick conservative ass, and if some people on our side are offended by it I consider it to be collateral damage.

of a graduate seminar.

sorry couldn't resist

demeans 53% of the population?

Look, I've already decided to err on the side of NOT banning words..mostly because I would prefer to take people to task and make them think about their language, but also because I have complete faith in my ability to wear someone down and have them give it up just to never have to deal with me about it again :evilgrin:

But frankly, women are a BIG portion of the liberal and progressive agenda. Those of us that ARE feminists may or may not agree about certain words and terms..that's one of the great things about BEING a feminist is thinking for yourself...but LANGUAGE is how conservatives overtook the conversation...think: welfare queen, entitlements etc...

Is asking people to think about WHAT they are saying and the images it invokes (especially with the term bitchslap) really overintellectualizing?

"LANGUAGE is how conservatives overtook the conversation...think: welfare queen, entitlements etc..."

That right there sums up how I feel about this issue. Controlling thought by changing language is still thought control. If the republicans love doing something it puts up a big warning sign for us, because it means that it is probably an evil tactic.

You do not speak for all women.

this thread will be hijacked in 3......2.......1......

Just my curious mind working yet again.

Posts. I would also be opposed to C**nt used in "Subject Line." In the thread then "go at it." I don't care because I won't read any graffitti type bathroom scrawls on thread by immature folks who can't post without using that garbage. But, enjoy it. And I will "pass by" but am not for censure if folks have language skills difficulties but need to post on a thread.

To post a "Subject Line" with slang, immature or unsophisticated language, or epithets or curses or fowlness (define fowl language) would turn me off and I would hope Skinner would stop it.

:shrug:

just curious. :-) :hi:

and I strongly reiterate my "no" vote if it a vote.

:shrug:

:evilgrin:

I say 6....:smoke:

I know that this is a privately owned forum...but...I also believe
in the freedom of expression. Unless its used on these forums to
directly insult a fellow member...I think that it should remain.

How about a poll?

You polled on the creation of GD2004, and that was a much more germaine issue as far as this board was concerned.

Just a thought.

If used against a freeper yes, anyone else no. Am I biased? Your damn right!

There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.

spam spam spam spam spam spam

:nopity: who cares what the goddamned women think?!

Sorry, I get pissed off, when people trivialize my concerns about sexism. :nuke:

*self-edited*

isn't worried about words, but about attitudes. Here is what I posted in the last thread, but only right before it got locked: I think there is an undercurrent of misogyny at DU that is unacceptable, but it will find a new home in the same ideas, phrased differently, with acceptable words. Getting rid of a word won't work; creating a culture here that stops denigrating women will. This is the fallacious belief of those who want to police language: by eliminating words, we change attitudes. In fact, we just create new forms of Resistance so those attitudes can be seen in different guises.

I should now give my credentials, since that seems mandatory to this argument: I am a woman and I co-majored in Women's Studies as an undergrad (English was my other major); my work in graduate school and in my dissertation have focused on concerns related to feminisism and sexuality. I have also had work published in a feminist academic journal. I admit I find the arguments of postmodern feminism much more convincing than those of traditional second-wave feminists, however. All these things are only secondary to the point I made in my first paragraph.

:hug:

What's the difference? None except as to who has the power and it's power that corrupts. Whether it's male tyranny or female tyranny makes no difference.

I feel like I am witnessing some of that right now.

I think this whole discussion is starting to get rediculous. And it's just looking like a big power struggle.

I appreciate the kind words. :)

Lots of good women have turned away because of that, just when we need their voices in the fight to oust Bush. It's a shame if we can't pull together to grow and become better people. It all starts with compassion and respect. I always thought that was what being a liberal was all about.

But words are often how the attitudes are perpetuated throughout the culture. When most women come to a forum and see "bitch-slapping" on threads, they feel like this is a hostile place toward women. Every 2 seconds a woman is beaten in the US. I say a line has to be drawn somewhere.

If a black person comes to this forum and sees a "Colin Powell is a n*gger" thread, they won't stick around. Same with a woman seeing the "John Dean bitch-slaps Bush" thread. A little discretion on the part of the board, and stuff like that doesn't happen. That's all I think most of us wanted.

that makes language policing attractive, I find it ineffective in eliminating the larger problem. And I don't believe this is tied to the words themselves, but to the attitudes.

Let's offer an alternate version of the "Dean Bitch Slaps Bush" thread: "Dean Punks Bush." That might be preferable to bitch slap to some women, but it is, at its heart, a homophobic sentiment (i.e., punk as a derogatory term toward gay men in African American and Latino cultures, and to some extent white culture). So while it seems to solve the problem, it jut displaces it. And I think that process of displacement would just continue ad infinitum if we were to eliminate a word or phrase. This is why I think the attitude of misogyny--or, indeed, misandry--is a problem we can address with other posters individually rather than making words verboten.

with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. That's all I ever wanted.

But first I think we had to clear up that "bitch-slapping" was seen as offensive in the same way as the N word, for instance. I'd estimate at least 100 people have said it is offensive to women in a gender-specific way - and that's just recently. Many more have said it over a longer period (this has been going on here for a while, and people have even left the board because of it.) To me, that says, Houston, we have a problem. Yet just hours after many people said please don't use the term, someone posts a thread with it prominently in the title. People say it's offensive and are told, Tough. How to break the cycle and get down to the business of beating Bush. I think that's what prompted this recent discussion. I've been posting here for a while, and am pretty discouraged. I can leave, no problem, just like lots of women before me have done. But is that the answer, I wonder?

I think we've established it's offensive to enough people to do something about it. It would be nice to do something to make DU welcoming to everyone. I'm open as to what that something is.

You've managed to sum up my feelings succinctly. Whining about words means jack-shit if you can't do anything about the attitudes. :toast: and :hug: to you.

can be very dangerous.

At the same time I see how some would think there would be reason to start somewhere. The hope that changing/elevating the language might help shape an attitude change?

Then, of course there is the trap of a policing of language also being a form of imposition/patriarchy.

I've studied this stuff a lot also (in a graduate seminar our main text was Robyn Warhol's anthology "Feminisms), it's been awhile though.

I wonder what the way is out of this bind?

Obviously the issue hasn't gone away.

we have bigger fish to fry than worrying about what some message board does about the word "bitch."

So-called feminists that spend more time screaming about words, rather than issues, HURT our cause and do not help it.

If every "feminist" put the time they did complaining about words like "bitch" and "cunt" and "whore" and "slut" and put it to good use: mentoring young girls, writing better dv legislation, working towards equal pay, etc.. we'd be lightyears ahead of where we are now.

And no one is fucking saying that women should "ALL JUST SHOULD SHUT UP, AND WRAP THEIR MOUTHS AROUND MEN'S COCKS!"

That's complete irrational and again, hurts the feminist cause!

You've got a place where you can ban words like "bitch." Don't spew your rhetoric and "morals" here.

slinkerwink...that's just foul. :eyes: I care what women think...I am one, but the term "bitch" just doesn't bother me.

earlier today.

You just hate women getting mistreated.

There's a huge difference.

:hug:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

whenever we talk about the sexism here, we get called man-haters, or whiners, or "bitches."

I'm gettin' deja-vu here....

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I know you have mothers.

:silly:

OK, now that the double entendre is out of the way, I strongly object to the implication that only "male members here in DU" are somehow innately insensitive or are the only ones who use the term "bitch." This sounds sexist to me, quite frankly, and contrary to reality. Women on DU have referred to female neoconservatives as "bitches" too. This is not a term used only by males. The focus on "males on DU" as being somehow less aware, less sensitive, less concerned, or less 'enlightened' about issues of sexism is itself sexist, imho.

It sure would be great if people discussing this issue could refrain from the suggestion that a DUer's gender made them inherently more or less qualified to discuss it.

Man ... talk about motes and logs!! :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

It is in the context. As Rivers Cuomo sings "if I'm a dog then your a bitch"

asked them please to stop using it, since it is hurtful to women?

I don't think I've ever used the word on DU, except in discussing this issue, and yet I don't want it banned - it's the principle of it.

and that's why the word "bitch" should be banned like "cunt."

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Fine, you disagree with Slinkerwink but you don't have to belittle and demean someone else when you disagree. Or do you?

Thesis blown. The only time I've used anything close was on a Condi Rice thread. She earned her rash of crap.

I've been defending other good liberals from what I consider over the top rants from Slinkerwink and a couple of others.

Look it up.

all she does is rant and rant.

I'm getting sick of seeing those posts if you ask me.

to some of us, this discussion is important. What I don't understand is why folks use terms that many find offensive.

member since April 6th and 38 posts and you're sick of seeing these posts already?
Low tolerance or is there something else going on perhaps?

That was the question. The question wasn't what you think but whether you are man enough to accept or decline a request.

Can I say Powell is a nigger and Sullivan is a faggot?

(And please, before anyone hits alert or deletes me, read the post to get my point. To some extent it seems that people's inability to read for context is part of the problem with these debates.)

Look, I agree with the women's studies major who posted above, and to be perfectly honest my personal philosophy lies in taking the language back. I am a bitch and damn proud. When someone calls me a bitch I know I'm doing something right. I realize this isn't how people consciously use it on DU in regards to Rice and Coulter, and that does bother me, but not enough to support banning it. People should be free to use it, and I should be free to lecture them when they do. If you ban it you remove that opportunity. Not that I believe I could actually get someone to admit they're wrong on this point - this thread is clear proof that I would be met with the condescending eye rolls that slinkerwink has been getting - but it's always fun to try, and I think that's the attitude problem people are talking about. Rather than hide it away, let's let all the misogynists roam free so we can slaughter them when appropriate.

All that being said, here's what I do have a problem with: why is this principle of free speech only being held up for the sexist terms? Why is it inappropriate for me to use racist or homophobic terms but not sexist ones? Why aren't people fighting for the principle there?

I support free speech and oppose the banning of words - ALL WORDS. If bitch can be tossed around than so can spic, nigger, faggot, etc. It's only fair.

who are shitting on my country.

I do try to say meadow muffins though.

I'd hate for anyone to get the dreaded read-through over expletives.

I'm way capable of calling someone out for sexist language. Of course, that's probably what you're trying to avoid.

I'll just be quiet now.

same effect as "Bush needs a good female dog-slappin"

Only to an extreme sexist could I imagine this equivalence relationship.

It's been claimed that "bitch" means "woman" for the reason that it means "female dog". Nonsense. It doesn't mean "woman" any more than "doe" means "woman." In the sense it's used as an epithet, it's merely one of a parallel set of terms ("bitch" and "prick") that essentially mean the same thing: antisocial person.

you're right. :)

I don't understand how some women correlate the word "bitch" to woman. :eyes:

To me a bitch can mean a lot of things. Female is not one of them.

"prick" means a male penis, and "bitch" means the FEMALE gender, therefore the woman.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

you've used "goddamned." Why aren't you giving Christian DUers the same amount of consideration you're demanding yourself? :shrug:

it's common courtesy.

as it denotes hierarchical structures.

I'm agnostic. But you're absolutely correct that it's common courtesy, and that's how we, as adults, should deal with this issue, instead of banning specific words.

I'd bet that if somebody used the B-word in a post and you pointed out that you found it offensive and asked them not to use it, they'd stop. They may even make an effort to stop using the word generally, outside of DU. But prohibit it as a rule and you turn people off to your point of view.

Remembering an early avatar of yours, you may find this interesting:

http://broadcast.iu.edu/lectures/steinem/

Scroll down to the link "The word bitch." Listen to how she reacted to being called a "slut from East St. Louis."

which is the bible of the English language, bitch has both a female and a male usage, which seems to undermine your assertions about its gender specificity. Indeed, these are definitions 2 a and b. Here they are, along with their historical usages.

2. a. Applied opprobriously to a woman; strictly, a lewd or sensual woman. Not now in decent use; but formerly common in literature. In mod. use, esp. a malicious or treacherous woman; of things: something outstandingly difficult or unpleasant. (See also SON OF A BITCH.)

?a1400 Chester Pl. (1843) 181 Whom calleste thou queine, skabde biche? 1575 J. STILL Gamm. Gurton II. ii, Come out, thou hungry needy bitch. 1675 HOBBES Odyssey XVIII. 310 Ulysses looking sourly answered, You Bitch. 1712 ARBUTHNOT John Bull (1755) 9 An extravagant bitch of a wife. 1790 WOLCOTT (P. Pindar) Adv. Fut. Laureat Wks. 1812 II. 337 Call her Prostitute, Bawd, dirty Bitch. 1814 Byron Let. 15 Oct. (1830) I. 586 It is well that one of us is of such fame, since there is a sad deficit in the morale of that article upon my part,all owing to my ‘bitch of a star’, as Captain Tranchemont says of his planet. 1833 MARRYAT P. Simple (1834) 446 You are a..son of a bitch. 1904 KIPLING Traffics & Discov. 165 After eight years, my father, cheated by your bitch of a country, he found out who was the upper dog in South Africa. 1913 D. H. LAWRENCE Sons & Lovers I. iv. 60 ‘Look at the children, you nasty little bitch!’ he sneered. 1931 T. E. LAWRENCE Let. 10 June (1938) 722 ‘She’ says the incarnate sailor, stroking the gangway of the Iron Duke, ‘can be a perfect bitch in a cross-sea.’ 1931 R. ALDINGTON Colonel's Daughter I. 50 What a preposterous old bitch that woman is. 1944 WYNDHAM LEWIS Let. 20 Aug. (1963) 378 For it may be a bitch of a Peace. 1956 S. BECKETT Godot I. p. 37 That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

b. Applied to a man (less opprobrious, and somewhat whimsical, having the modern sense of ‘dog’). Not now in decent use.

a1500 E.E. Misc. (1855) 54 He is a schrewed byche, In fayth, I trow, he be a wyche. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones XVII. iii, Landlord is a vast comical bitch. 1893 STEVENSON Catriona xi. 123 Ay, Davie, ye're a queer character..a queer bitch after a', and I have no mind of meeting with the like of ye. 1916 JOYCE Portrait of Artist v. 203 Is your lazy bitch of a brother gone yet?

Bitch means female dog.

From merriam-webster.com:
Main Entry: 1bitch
Pronunciation: 'bich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce
1 : the female of the dog
2 a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman
3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant
4 : COMPLAINT

Email them and tell them they're wrong. :eyes:

for instance "to bitch" means to complain like a woman, and a woman who asserts her right to speak is often thought of as a bitch or unpleasant, as one of the definition says.

definitions one, three, and four don't have anything to say about the human female gender. Are you a female dog? No. You're a female human being. Definitions three and four:

3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant
4 : COMPLAINT

How does that tie back to the female gender? Where does it say it does????

"she's a bitch" as in "objectionable or unpleasant"

or "she bitches too much."

"She bitches too much" means "She complains too much." Not sexist.

"Mike is bitching about how much gas costs today." In that example, Mike is a male, "bitching" = complaining. It does not refer to ones gender.

Get a better argument.

that definition of the word "bitch" here as in to complain, but it often brings to mind of a woman complaining. That's the association I get whenever I hear the word "bitch" in any context.

I've been used to the term "bitching" as by both men and women who complain. Meanings of words change with time. This time, the word "bitch" has changed.

yep, it's always directed at a woman. :eyes:

I know you're being sarcastic at the "always" part.

Times have changed, slinkerwink. It's time to leave the '50s.

you fell into the hole, and this is one you can't dig out of

"bitch" has many connotations, and not all of them are about women.

Ray Lewis REALLY looked emasculated by it. Sure he was.

It trumps hack dictionaries like Webster's every day. And twice today.

Definition #2 to be exact refers specifically to women.

Slinkerwink specifically said all four of the definitions are sexist. :eyes:

word association changes with the time!

Move into modern feminism please! Thank you! Actions, not words! Issues, not words! Make a real change not a superficial one!!

language has a lot to do with what? word association? No fucking shit!

take for instance at how well the right-wing has demonized the word "liberal" and "feminist"-----they know in controlling language, that they can control their agenda.

your argument is weak, and you know it. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it any stronger.

And we've let the right demonize the words just like some "feminists" have demonized the word "bitch." No one is doing the demonizing but the so-called feminists that purport the idea that "bitch" needs to be removed from, say, a message board like this one.

more feminist than thou, thank you very much. You have no idea what "actions" slinkerwink or other women on this board are taking.

Oh, and words are important. Language is important. Language is the tool we have for expressing ideas and ideas are important. We are swimming in a sea of sexism, even here on DU, and asking the men here to knock it the fuck off is doing something about this place - hopefully making it a more welcoming place to come and talk about what we can do about those republican bastards.

I think it's pretty apparent who is.

how to be a "modern" feminist.

If you don't mind being called names by idiots who can't be bothered with displaying even a modicum of sensitivity that's your prerogative...but please refrain from offering them ammunition by demeaning the concerns of other women or implying that they are not really feminists.

then they will be found out regardless of whether admin bans "bitch" from the board.

And modern feminist theory has abandoned, for the most part, efforts to change language (ala "herstory")

And I'm not the one offering ammunition to the sexists on the board. Others are doing that just fine without my help.

It's only ONE of FOUR meanings...

3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant

does not specify gender

if we outlaw "bitch", what else will be considered "forbidden" speech?

Since we have covered sexist and racist speech, how about classist references such as "redneck" and "trailer trash", which I feel, are equally as damaging as any sexist or racist term. Or, how about all the folks who ask "What the hell is up with the South?" It stereotypes those of a geographic reigon, and always seems to result in flame-fests.

Funny, this is not been discussed much here. How much offense are we willing to avoid but still preserve protected speech?

this is why women think DU is sexist, and the usage of the word "bitch" is a part of this misogynistic culture here.

Why is it okay to curtail sexist speech, but let classist insults run rampant?

If you're getting rid of bitch, then you're getting rid of crippled, brain-damaged, lame, flatulent, cross-eyed, knock-kneed, crazy, four-eyed... you want me to go on?

Is it fair for one group to get special service while people sensitive to medical disabilities is completely ignored?

Why should language that insults the disabled be allowed? Because a few DU women yell louder and curse more?

For example, I would like to bitch slap George W. Bush for being a warmongering idiot.

There is no sexism, no anti-woman thought behind it. You are being defensive when there is no reason to. Your assumptions about how it is "sexist" are just that-- assumptions, and incorrect ones. The only group that has a legit right to be upset here is female canines in heat... fortunately, they can't read. I have the utmost respect for the female gender, sexism never enters into my thought process.

That said, I don't say "bitch slap" because it's a bit of a teenager thing to say, but I fail to see why such a term should be banned.

Words are but an expression of a thought. That is the principle behind all language. There is no sexism in the thought "bitch slap".

It's why "shoot" and "shit" is so ridiculous. They're both the same thought, why does the spelling of the word matter? It's absurd.

I always thought one of the fundamental principles of our philosophy was the that the right to express ourselves would be unbridled. If we used language that may be offensive, so be it.

I udnerstand civility is paramount and we should remove personal attacks that otherwise lack anything substantive, but otherwise I am totally opposed to banning any particular word from posting. Whether that be "bitch," "whore," "fuck," "shit," etc. et. al.

if you don't want censorship.

And I don't even see the problem with "cunt" anyway. The other three we can argue embodies hatred under certain contexts, but "cunt" is just an ugly word for vagina.

Even with the other three words, censoring them gives them power and inhibits our understanding of them and the sentiments behind it. Rather than censoring (and in effect empowering it), I think we should let it slide somewhat. After all, we can police ourselves, and the few that will actively use it in offensive manners will expose themselves as the biggoted fools they are. It'd be rather educational, I'd think.

people to call us faggots?

and neither is sexism. But the word "bitch" doesn't necessarily indicate sexism- and "faggot" doesn't necessarily indicate homophobia. Removing the word won't change the ideas. They'll just be harder to spot since the word isn't allowed. Again, banning the words HURT the cause.

stopped and tombstoned.

I understand your point, but we are having a crisis of sorts, in which a lot of women are feeling unwelcome on the forum.

Since you are a guy, tell me what you think of thread titles like this on DU:

"Colin Powell is a n*gger"

I'm not black, but I'd surely take one look at threads like that and figure DU was not the place for me.

Well,

"John Dean bitch-slaps Bush"

has that same effect on a lot of women.

NOBODY uses the insulting language you use on threads. Nobody.

especially high-profile women in the media. If you don't like their behavior, call them out on their behavior instead of using sexist insults!

Yeah.... real gender specific insult there. That's what finally tipped me over to being pissed off at the small group of you here at DU about the overuse of words "sexist" and misogynist" here at DU against good liberals

After all, the freedom of speech is way overrated. /sarcasm off

Why do we need more rules? Can't we police ourselves, using peer pressure and our own better judgement. After all, actually calling someone a "bitch" or any other insult is a violation in itself. I just don't see why we need to start censoring individual words. Speaking for myself, I will not be using those words on here, since it's offensive to some (and I'm not in the habit of using them anyway)

his bitch.

bitch slap is sort of something I think of Mafia wise guys doing to some low level thug.

Bitch is like faggot or homo. Its a derogatory term.

being violent against a woman. I hope you'll carefully consider my post.

BUT...

I think "banning" their use is not right.. I never take anything "said" here as "personal".. If someone sends me a PM and calls me a bunch of dirty names, that's different....but words typed here are meant for ANYONE who happens to read them (whether they are an 'answer' to a particular post or not)..

I know that there are "younger ones" here too, but the internet is not a 'nanny'.. People who are offended to a particular phrase, word,or idea, should either respond to it or NOT..

"Sex talk" is a different issue.. This is a political board, not a XXX chat room for lonely people.

"Banning" certain words is censorship..just as deleting certain words from literature is censorship..(not that what goes on here is often 'literature')...

When someone *cannot think of the perfect word* and uses curse words instead, a simple reply to THAT post, stating the obvious should suffice...and then the "offended" person could just use the ignore button.. That's what it's for..

Why stop at Bitch?? Why not all the rest?? Everyone has a "trigger" word that sends them over the edge..

How bout a filter? B3ta did this last year and it was funny and yet effective.. The admins "assigned" a different word to all the "troublesome" words.. for instance, the "f" word was cranberry.. People got used to being more creative after a few weeks.. :)


edited to add.. I do not like the use of ANY foul language in the subject line.. Not because of the word...because it makes us look stupid and juvenile.. If we hope to gain widespread "gravitas", we need to at least be "grown up" looking of the Latest page and Home page.. Within the body of posts/threads, curse/dirty words don't bother me..

to use sexist terms like "bitch" "cunt" "whore" and "dyke"

you just refuse to listen...

you keep making the same argument over and over and over....

The PEOPLE who would use those words, should probably no be here anyway, and a quick "alert" will get rid of them AND their offensive post..

that this is not about a "word", but a concept. Rather than wanting a certain configuration of letters stricken from the available vocabulary choices at DU, some of us are being asked to change our perceptions and personal meanings to match those of a very few. That's what censorship is always about. It's not the book the banners want to burn. It's the ideas the book represents TO THEM.

I really don't like that. I've seen it before, though. A few people will stir and stir and stir. Then when they get their way, they vanish! You'll find those types everywhere.

This is reminding me of the kos and advertiser situation. RW agitators made a ruckus. We expect more from our side. We expect the privilege of being allowed to come to our beliefs by our own free wills and not by force or coercion.

Frankly, when someone uses the term *b*-slap, I think that tells me something about that person. It might be they are a "kid" who thinks that's the latest cat's pajamas in slang. It might be uttered by a serial bully. Other factors enter into deciphering communication.

I am absolutely in favor of folks telling me exactly where they stand on any issue. Just don't assume I am obligated to stand in the same place. The more words, the better.

Would most DUers be outraged, or would he get a pass for avoiding political correctness?

IMO, the term is aggressive and demeaning, and its usage should be avoided. I don't know how a progressive Democrat could view it any other way. The term's social origins (beyond its literal canine application) are inescapably based upon aggression, anger, power and dominance.

The younger demographic (18-24) is generally more numb to its usage.

Banning or forbidding it will be problematic, however. Perhaps, from time to time, posters should be reminded about the necessity of self-governing their speech and showing basic respect for their fellow DUers, all in a effort to better channel vituperation where it is needed -- toward the right wing.

Thought questions: Would you call your mom a bitch, in any context? How about a male friend referring to your mom/sister/spouse/GF as a bitch? How about a romantic dinner with your spouse/GF, and over a glass of wine, telling her, "My, but you're a lovely bitch?"

Wow, bitch vs. bastard, this is so fucking productive :eyes:

you took the words right out of my mouth :(

It's about time we focus on more important issues.

you see it.

It ain't the words, it's the behavior of the poster. Racists have outed themselves at Du as have sexists and SOME of the behavior on these threads qualifies as sexist, if one goes back and reads them carefully.

Such as for bunkerboy's "mother", and Ann Coulter, etc.

They display all the qualities of the description.

Bitchslap - slapping a bitch, such as bunkerboy's mother, would also be appropriate, I believe. It is derogatory to the intended "person" and justifiably so.

who has made the honor of being the first person on my ignore list...

This is so sickening.

I just put the first person on my ignore list, too.

in which you referred to a woman who was getting an abortion and was the subject of legal action by her soon to be EX husband as a WHORE..

so as the soon to be second person on your ignore list, I just wouldn't trust you to recognize sexist behavior when you see it.

it's sad that the poster referred to that woman as a whore because she got an abortion and was under legal action by her ex-husband.

and remove the DU link to media whores. Once we got ride of all the double-plus un-good words we would start to think in the correct manner. It would be a great victory for the thought police, I know that some people her have problems with the thought police (just because they made the term liberal mean bad) but I think the thought police are double-plus good because they told me too think so.

I am sure that the good people here trying to ban the word bitch have all of our best interests at heart and that they aren't trying to push though an extreme agenda. I am sure that all the most vocal supporters of the anti-bitch movement are also very loyal members of DU, who don't have a myriad of other problems with this board (and god forbid they could never be using this issue as a wedge to forward their own DU unfriendly agenda.)

So remember War is peace, DU is full of sexism, and we all act like DINOs.

I always assumed progressives were evolved to the point where we don't get offended by words.
Did anyone see the star-trek episode where Abraham Lincoln beamed onto the Enterprise and was shocked to see a black women and called her a "nigress" then she said in our century nobody gets offended by mere words.

where they didn't go around intentionally offending people after they had been told their behavior was offensive.

liberal was the ability to empathize with the pain of others.

I've been trying all day to figure out how to word this post. I have some problems with the way you raised this issue to begin with. We've never had a conversation about forbidding the "n" word or other ethnic slurs. They just get deleted by the mods. I feel a little bit like you set us up for this flamefest by using a loaded word like "forbid". I want to believe that was not your intention. But the thing is, you've never strictly "forbidden" those other slurs...you just don't tolerate them. I don't understand why this isn't treated the same as racial or ethnic slurs and just taken care of under the rule against racist and sexist posts.

We've never had a discussion about "is it ok to call Colin Powel a "n" word". If someone posted that about high-profile black republicans it would be deleted in a heartbeat. Why then is it even up for discussion whether it is ok to call Ann Coulter or Condi Rice a gender epithet?

Priorities. If we lose the current engagement, our words won't fill our bellies. Let's worry about the BFEE now, and work out the niceties and nuances of speech later.

women have been told to "wait your turn" or "we'll get to your concerns after this other thing that is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT then you". Stunning how our turn never seems to come. Pardon us for standing up and saying NOW.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1357419

I'm locking this thread.