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Why we must never abandon this historic struggle in Iraq - Tony Blair

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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:21 PM
Original message
Why we must never abandon this historic struggle in Iraq - Tony Blair
We are locked in a historic struggle in Iraq. On its outcome hangs more than the fate of the Iraqi people. Were we to fail, which we will not, it is more than 'the power of America' that would be defeated. The hope of freedom and religious tolerance in Iraq would be snuffed out. Dictators would rejoice; fanatics and terrorists would be triumphant. Every nascent strand of moderate Arab opinion, knowing full well that the future should not belong to fundamentalist religion, would be set back in bitter disappointment.
If we succeed - if Iraq becomes a sovereign state, governed democratically by the Iraqi people; the wealth of that potentially rich country, their wealth; the oil, their oil; the police state replaced by the rule of law and respect for human rights - imagine the blow dealt to the poisonous propaganda of the extremists. Imagine the propulsion toward change it would inaugurate all over the Middle East.

In every country, including our own, the fanatics are preaching their gospel of hate, basing their doctrine on a wilful perversion of the true religion of Islam. At their fringe are groups of young men prepared to conduct terrorist attacks however and whenever they can. Thousands of victims the world over have now died, but the impact is worse than the death of innocent people.

The terrorists prey on ethnic or religious discord. From Kashmir to Chechnya, to Palestine and Israel, they foment hatred, they deter reconciliation. In Europe, they conducted the massacre in Madrid. They threaten France. They forced the cancellation of the President of Germany's visit to Djibouti. They have been foiled in Britain, but only for now.

Of course they use Iraq. It is vital to them. As each attack brings about American attempts to restore order, so they then characterise it as American brutality. As each piece of chaos menaces the very path toward peace and democracy along which most Iraqis want to travel, they use it to try to make the coalition lose heart, and bring about the retreat that is the fanatics' victory.

They know it is a historic struggle. They know their victory would do far more than defeat America or Britain. It would defeat civilisation and democracy everywhere. They know it, but do we? The truth is, faced with this struggle, on which our own fate hangs, a significant part of Western opinion is sitting back, if not half-hoping we fail, certainly replete with schadenfreude at the difficulty we find.

So what exactly is the nature of the battle inside Iraq itself? This is not a 'civil war', though the purpose of the terrorism is undoubtedly to try to provoke one. The current upsurge in violence has not spread throughout Iraq. Much of Iraq is unaffected and most Iraqis reject it. The insurgents are former Saddam sympathisers, angry that their status as 'boss' has been removed, terrorist groups linked to al-Qaeda and, most recently, followers of the Shia cleric, Muqtada-al-Sadr.

The latter is not in any shape or form representative of majority Shia opinion. He is a fundamentalist, an extremist, an advocate of violence. He is wanted in connection with the murder of the moderate and much more senior cleric, Ayatollah al Khoei last year. The prosecutor, an Iraqi judge, who issued a warrant for his arrest, is the personification of how appallingly one-sided some of the Western reporting has become. Dismissed as an American stooge, he has braved assassination attempts and extraordinary intimidation in order to follow proper judicial process and has insisted on issuing the warrant despite direct threats to his life in doing so.

There you have it. On the one side, outside terrorists, an extremist who has created his own militia, and remnants of a brutal dictatorship which murdered hundreds of thousands of its own people and enslaved the rest. On the other side, people of immense courage and humanity who dare to believe that basic human rights and liberty are not alien to Arab and Middle Eastern culture, but are their salvation.

Over the past few weeks, I have met several people from the Iraqi government, the first genuine cross-community government Iraq had seen. People like Mrs Barwari, the Minister of Public Works, who has just survived a second assassination attempt that killed her bodyguard; people like Mr Zebari, the Foreign Minister. They are intelligent, forward-looking, tolerant, dedicated to their country. They know that 'the occupation' can be used to stir up anti-coalition feeling; they, too, want their country governed by its people and no one else. But they also know that if we cut and run, their country would be at the mercy of warring groups which are united only in their distaste for democracy.

The tragedy is that outside of the violence which dominated the coverage of Iraq, there are incredible possibilities of progress. There is a huge amount of reconstruction going on; the legacy of decades of neglect is slowly being repaired.

By 1 June, electricity will be 6,000MW, 50 per cent more than prewar, but short of the 7,500MW they now need because of the massive opening up of the economy, set to grow by 60 per cent this year and 25 per cent the next.

The first private banks are being opened. A new currency is in circulation. Those in work have seen their salaries trebled or quadrupled and unemployment is falling. One million cars have been imported. Thirty per cent now have satellite TV, once banned, where they can watch al-Jazeera, the radical Arab TV station, telling them how awful the Americans are.

<snip>

People in the West ask: why don't they speak up, these standard-bearers of the new Iraq? Why don't the Shia clerics denounce al-Sadr more strongly? I understand why the question is asked. But the answer is simple: they are worried. They remember 1991, when the West left them to their fate. They know their own street, unused to democratic debate, rife with every rumour, and know its volatility. They read the Western papers and hear its media. And they ask, as the terrorists do: have we the stomach to see it through?

I believe we do. And the rest of the world must hope that we do. None of this is to say we do not have to learn and listen. There is an agenda that could unite the majority of the world. It would be about pursuing terrorism and rogue states on the one hand and actively remedying the causes around which they flourish on the other: the Palestinian issue; poverty and development; democracy in the Middle East; dialogue between main religions.

I have come firmly to believe the only ultimate security lies in our values. The more people are free, the more tolerant they are of others; the more prosperous, the less inclined they are to squander that prosperity on pointless feuding and war.

But our greatest threat, apart from the immediate one of terrorism, is our complacency. When some ascribe, as they do, the upsurge in Islamic extremism to Iraq, do they really forget who killed whom on 11 September 2001? When they call on us to bring the troops home, do they seriously think that this would slake the thirst of these extremists, to say nothing of what it would do to the Iraqis?

Or if we scorned our American allies and told them to go and fight on their own, that somehow we would be spared? If we withdraw from Iraq, they will tell us to withdraw from Afghanistan and, after that, to withdraw from the Middle East completely and, after that, who knows? But one thing is for sure: they have faith in our weakness just as they have faith in their own religious fanaticism. And the weaker we are, the more they will come after us.

It is not easy to persuade people of all this; to say that terrorism and unstable states with WMD are just two sides of the same coin; to tell people what they don't want to hear; that, in a world in which we in the West enjoy all the pleasures, profound and trivial, of modern existence, we are in grave danger.

There is a battle we have to fight, a struggle we have to win and it is happening now in Iraq.


----------------------------------------------------

Alright, I am back in the fold. We cannot give up.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. My response is....
:puke: :puke: :puke:
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Did you read it?
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I lived through Vietnam.
They spouted the same damned shit then.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Where do you think he is wrong?
What do you think will happen if we withdraw?

Do you think Al Qaeda will leave us alone?

Screw communism.. I was almost a communist once. I felt that if the Russians came, i would welcome them with a shot of vodka (I grew up close to the border of the Soviet Union).

This is different though. You in the US might insulate yourselves, but Europe is already in an existential struggle.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. If we withdraw, it will be hell. If we stay, it will be hell. It IS hell
Edited on Sat Apr-10-04 10:02 PM by greatauntoftriplets
Al Qaeda is growing in strength because of this fucking crusade.

We in the United States are the ones sacrificing the most dead, and we are far from insulated! We are living under the numbnuts regime, and Blair is Bush's lapdog. We in the US don't have the luxury of "an existential struggle". It is our people who are putting their lives on the line. I remember the fucking body counts during Vietnam. It is past time to end this act of vengeance because they dissed Poppy.


Perhaps you should enlist? Doesn't matter that you are not a citizen. Plenty of non US citizens have died in this miserable failure.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You know what....I tried, but I failed me medical..
But, I am at the moment talking to an Israeli group which might make me able to help out the IDF...Cooking food for the soldiers and cleaning the tanks.

It's not much, but it is something.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Why would you want to help the IDF?
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. To help them against fundies like Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. The Palestinian crisis is because of Israel's land theft, not because of
fundies like Islamic Jihad or Hamas. The IDF is creating the crisis by assisting in this land theft.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Tony got us into this mess
He should be fired.

He created all this bloodshed and is directly responsible for enflaming the extremism by supporting Bush in this lunacy. Iraq wasn't in danger of going fundy till the war.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'll see that and raise you
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. do they really forget who killed whom on 11 September 2001
Yeah , we haven't. It's not Iraq but hey since you guys had to go into Iraq and screw up the country I bet they are in there now.

Piece of work. What happened to him?
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. We're talking about islamists and terrorists......
And the claim that they will attack the West because of Iraq,....

Well, they attacked NY, Bali Checnya, and me...
Way before the Iraq war.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. The fundies that attacked us weren't from Iraq.
Edited on Sat Apr-10-04 09:37 PM by Classical_Liberal
, and they weren't Shias. Fortunately Brits can probably tell the difference unlike Americans, but how the hell does that fuckup Tony keep his job?
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. But, they were bred from the fertile soil which is the dysfunctional
middle east. Tipping over the awful status quo which was there is EXACTLY attacking the root causes of 911.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Why didn't we attack Pakistan or Saudi Arabia?
or should be have attacked China for what Japan did at Perle Harbor?
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I have no good question to you. I would guess in Saudi's case it's oil
:-( :-( :-( After reading the stories of how the Saudi religious police foced girls back into a burning building to die, because they were not dressed properly is one of the most depraved things I have ever experienced....

I dunno. The world is a horrible place.
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shadu Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. WOW, now those are some crazy ideas
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Alright. Why are they crazy?
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well because it is an excuse to go after random brown people
like this war. We made war on people who didn't attack us, making enemies out of people who weren't, and we ignored the problem of Pakistani and Saudi fundyism.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Alright.. But, the middle east pre the Iraq war gave us
the assination attempt at William Nygaard in Oslo (For publishing the Satanical verses), the Lockerbie bombing, Lebanon, 911, the Munich Massacre, the Achille Lauro, the bombing of the US embassies in Africa, the USS Cole, and a whole host of other atrocities.

The status quo sucked.

As for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia I sadly agree with you. They're next. But, they are changing. Check out the education minister of Saudi Arabia now. That is a man with courage.

This is a generational struggle, not a one year play.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. If you're going to go down that "tunnel vision" route
Edited on Sat Apr-10-04 10:37 PM by Aidoneus
which is ridiculous, by the way.. You might be interested in knowing what those that you back have given the world (I like Norway and most of my family is from there, but those you're cheering on here--bah!). I don't have a lot of time to go into my schtick, but it's a hell of a lot worse--avalanche to a drizzle by comparison.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Well we could go back to the damned crucifixion if you like
but those were all different times and separate incidences with different countries, and different factions.

Iran withdrew it's fatwa on the Satanic Verses.

The Achilles Lauro and Munich would be more constructively dealt with by Israel getting out of the West Bank, than an invasion of Iraq.

The bombing of the US embassy and the attack on the US Cole was a Saudi/Pakistani Al Qaeda related.

The Lockerbe incident was addressed already with an air strike during the Reagan administration.

The fact that those things happen is still no excuse for making enemies with people who weren't.

Frankly Lebanon, wasn't our problem and produced no terrorism against us till we invaded, nor since we left. It was Israel's thing.

Sorry attacking the random blob middle east, without respect to people or persons responsible for the tragedies you have outlined is just bigoted. Let's go attack all black people cause they rape our white women. The thinking this displays is no different. You are attacking people who are not guilty because they live in the same region and are the same ethnic group as the people who are.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Classic_liberal...Thanks for a good thought out constructive answer
It is getting close to the morning here in Norway, so I need to go to bed.

I will get back to you tomorrow if you want to.... You do make good points. And, I would be very interested in any alternative solution to the problem. Certainly, I admit that the solution I advocate is VERY far from perfect.

Have a good night, and a good easter.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. When are they going to fire you Tony?
If we hadn't gone in their Iraq wouldn't be facing this now.
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Brits screwed up Iraq once. Isn't that enough?
No one ever learns from history.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. The English learnt, its the American arrogant administration that
refuses to listen.

Trust me. Blair and Kerry is going to be Don Quixote and Sancho Panza (sp?), excpet this time, they are not going to fight windmills.

Kerry must win, if the war on islamic fundies is to be won.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Since you think the present policy is right, why not just vote for Bush?
Edited on Sat Apr-10-04 10:45 PM by Classical_Liberal
?
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Alright, one last answer: I agree with Kerry, the execution of the current
administration is terrible. It is an overly ideological, inept and arrogant crew who is at the helm at the moment.

First of all. Capitalism crash course in Iraq: Who could possibly be that stupid to have done this?

IF everyone had a job, 90 percent of the unrest would have been gone. If some if the dollars had gone towards this, istead of into the pockets of Haliburton we would have been looking at a totally different situation.

Good night.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. Just what do we have to win and is this the right way to go about winning
whatever we are trying to win?
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
31. That bastard has really got down pat
The wonderfully uplifting, near tearful sincerity, moral sounding shit that he comes out with.

You can imagine a bunch of violins playing highly moving music behind him as he speaks.

:puke:
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