Alright, I AM taxed too much.

I've been figuring my taxes. My wife and I make about $60,000 combined. It appears that, this year, over all, we paid over $25,000 in taxes. What a load of crap. I am seriously pissed. It is time to lower everybody's taxes. Hell, according to some, we are rich! What bullshit! I don't know about other people, but I sure as hell am overtaxed. Federal Income, Social Security, Medicare, Two state income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, car taxes, two local income taxes, gasoline taxes, I'm sure there are others that I haven't thought of. Our tax system needs a total overhaul. Ok, I'm done ranting, but I'm still pissed.

who knows everything he does about the tax system from listening to his dad complain, it sounds like you're paying too much. Just judging by how much money my dad makes and how much he pays, it sounds like you're really paying too much. If I were you I'd get a second opinion. 50% tax is way out of control.

All the others contribute too. Plus, I'm self-employed...so I get dinged even harder.

that is what really taxes you to death isn't it?

And I don't mean "self-employed because the Republicans say I can't be unemployed". Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't state and local taxes usually lower than Federal taxes? I don't know, I'm way out of my league. Feel free to ignore me... no seriously, feel free to ignore me.

One last piece of free advice. One person in my town was so mad about his taxes he burned down the local IRS office. Don't do that. Remain calm.

Best of luck in your battle with the taxman!

Yuck!

It would appear to me that a Self Employed person could have better control than a working stiff. What businnes are you in?

heh...try moving to some European countries. That'd be nothing...

for upper income levels...i wouldn't say 60,000 fits in upper income tho.

As complicated as the tax laws are, it's hard to walk away from your taxes feeling like you paid the right amount. I always think "Maybe if I knew more about what I was doing, I could pay less."

So it's this game where people who can pay for good tax help come out ahead, and the rest of us are likely to get screwed.

I have nothing against paying taxes in principle, and people who make a lot of money SHOULD shoulder more of the tax burden. But when things are as complicated as they are, it only encourages a "beat the system" mentality that isn't good for democracy.

...every year they come out with an ADDITIONAL thousand or so tax laws.

I finally just threw my hands up in the air one year and went with an accountant, best thing I ever did...

not quite true (27% falls out for FIT only) - but our progressive tax system is not very progressive.

But Social Services/infrastructure - roads & courts & things - cost 60% in most Western Countries. Just a question of the allocation of the costs - and right now the rich are winning the GOP class warfare battle.

the rich that are paying those high taxes in Europe. to have a properly financed social services system requires a lot of money. More than the rich actually have. So you have to go to the middle-class, because that's where the money is. and before some ignorant joker flames me, there are substantially more middle-class than there are rich. So you don't have to take as much money from each one of them to obtain substantially more money total. Do the math.

Hey, if YOU are not willing to support the progressive policies, why should conservatives, or the apathetic be willing to?

but then much of the infrastructure is "free" - unlike in America where college or bad health costs can destroy 90% of whatever you have saved,

...that b*'s "tax cut's" were going to benefit any of middle classer's did they? I did not see any sort of a break this, or the last three years. I am paying the same, and if you count the property taxes I am ponying up also, I am paying more, because those increased...

-We had a child, so I get the increased child credit.
-I bought a small piece of property, so we get the interest deduction.
-My wife stayed home to raise the baby, so I claim her as a dependent.
-The tax cut lowered my bracket.

All in all I am getting a refund that is about TWO TIMES what I normally get back.

Some here like to complain bitterly about the cuts benefitting the rich, well guys, we ain't rich and we can really use ANY extra money we can get.

I'm all for people who make a lot paying more. They have more than they need to make a decent living. But when people making $40-50K a year are being defined as rich and getting soaked for every conceivable tax dollar possible, things have gone too far.

Property taxes in my area are really killing things. Assessments are going up every year and many first time homebuyers are getting a cold dose of reality when they find out they can afford the home of their dreams and then can't swing it with the property tax added in.

I think we're killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

The escrow went up by about $600 on what was originally a $800/month mortgage. She worked 70 hours a week so I could stay in the same school until I graduated (this happened senior year). Then she sold the house because she was so burned out by working 25 extra hours a week just to pay off the property tax increase.

Hey *, thanks for the tax cut! (sarcasm)

over last 20 years the tax burden has shifted from the really rich and corporations to the middleclass.

funds for local services go down. Local governments (stae, county, municiple) are then spread thin to cover the lost income. That is why state taxes and property taxes are going up.

Bush gave the top one percent and corporations huge tax cuts and tax breaks.

The result is tax increases for everyone else. The Bush tax, ranging from higher sales taxes to higher property taxes.

And ironically, it's those of us in the "blue" states who are subsidizing the "red" states, if you look at net transfers of tax dollars.

I think those red states need to start pulling their own weight!

And the wealthy need to pay their fair share rather than freeloading off of the rest of us!

There is no way you're supposed to be paying 42%:

http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/jointmarried/

Based on my own taxes I can pretty much guarantee you you are overpaying.

at least for me, those state and local taxes (counting things like car registration) really add up!!

and i think including fica is fair game too in calculating the taxes one pays.

Not just the Federal Income ones!

I'm considering my state and local taxes, too.

My salary is in the ballpark of what you and your wife made. I am single, have no children, and do not own a home. I did not pay NEARLY as much as you did. Like, not even close. It is unbelievable to me that local property and self-employment taxes alone would make a couple pay so much more than I did.

Maybe they do add up to that much of a difference, I don't know, but if so that is really, really surprising.


Edited to add, now that I read the other post, that I wasn't considering FICA. However, that only ads ~8% or so, and even if I consider that I've still paid less than you, which doesn't seem right. I'm only ONE person, after all, and you guys are two.

and found that I paid a fortune in gas taxes, and sales taxes, and car taxes, and all the other little ones that get you. Property taxes are over $4000/year.

I edited my other post on the FICA point, but if you're talking about every single tax you paid in the year, fine, I can see how it would add up the number you've given. I thought your april bill was going to be that much, which seemed a little absurd given what you gave as your income.

I'm having a hard time feeling that outraged now, though.

i hear no one pays much in the way of taxes over there - in bangladesh because no one has any money and in russia because society has completely broken down - but nevertheless you won't have to be paying those onerous taxes!

ARE onerous because of what we are getting or not getting in return and because of the taxes being disproportially placed on middle income earners - NOT because taxes are bad AND we are just not getting our money's worth for our taxes. No health care, crumbling infrastructure, corporate tax breaks, and war.

people would be whining about them.

sure, it'd be great if somebody else would pay them . . . but who? (or should that be whom?)

however some people are seriously Under taxed

>>I've been figuring my taxes. My wife and I make about $60,000 combined. It appears that, this year, over all, we paid over $25,000 in taxes. What a load of crap.<<

It is truly upsetting the state of the economy. Like the old saying 'the poor get poor, while the rich get richer'

Your interest is written off. Makes a HUGE difference.

I'm a Realtor.

Such as leasing your car, not buying it? Writing it off? Deducting mileage, home office, telephones?

It's ALL in the deductions.

What states are you liciensed to sell homes in?

Isn't this a 'sellers market' right now? So the cost, is going to be way up there for new home buyers or people whom make under 100 g's right now.

Licensed in Ohio?

A friend in Austria pays 50% of his $70,000 income in tax.
He gets full health and dental, free nursing home care when needed, free university education, full retirement based on living expenses at age 55, unlimited unemployment benefits, eight weeks paid vacation (4 weeks is the minimum), very good public schools, a very low crime rate and excellent services such as sanitation, roads and public transit.

A friend in New York City pays 50% of his $70,000 income in combined taxes. He gets almost nothing. None of the above benefits, but with dirty streets, failing schools, pot-hole streets and there's still plenty of crime.

Americans do pay too much in taxes considering how little we get for it.

I really don't mind paying taxes but I sure wish we got some of the services you mentioned - especially health care.

it would cost you much more than that.

and you're complaining about having to live on only $35k after taxes?

When people like Fatslob (2 incomes @ 60K combined) complain about high taxes, they're usually justified at least in part. He may be above median, but he ain't rich.

It's the people (& corporations) at the top of the scale (million-plus incomes) getting their taxes cut that's piling more of the load upon us mere mortals.

Fatslob is paying his fair share. The ultra rich and the corporations should be too (but they aren't, and that's the problem - not overtaxed middle class)

only comsumers of products and services from the corporations pay taxes.

Nobody should pay taxes. The governments can support themselves without taxes.

What % constitutes a fair share? How much will the poor pay? How about the ultra rich?

about 55% of all the stocks on the market are owned by Federal, States and Local governments, then we should not have to pay taxes, period.

It seems like there are 2 sets of books each government keeps. One set shows-up as the expenses and taxes collected, this is for public consumption. The other set, the assets and liability lists all the records. There is some 'special' name for the second set of books, maybe someone here can chime in with the exact name to ask when obtaining the records.

It seems like we have been getting screwed by our government for the last 40-50 years when it comes to taxes. The government owns this country. We are not a capitalistic country at all. Government owns 55%, the wealthiest investors own about 35% and that leaves, ta da, 10% for the rest of us. I think the amount mentioned that is owned by the government comes to like $50 trillion dollars. Thats trillion folks.

Let me see, $50T at a modest 5% is $2.5T income per year. And we need to pay taxes? I think NOT. We should be receiving a check from the governments each and every year on what is recieved minus what is spent.

Many times what doesn't show-up anyplace is revenue from fire/ambulance services, road tolls, fees from parks, court fines, licensing fees, income from investments. Only the bills and the taxes is what we see. No profit is shown.

Do you really think the income from the money loaned to the IMF and paid back to the Federal treasury ends back on the 'books'. Where is all the income from those loans going? Its going to our politicians, both repub and democrats, and to the wealthiest. Why do you think so many around the world are so pissed at the USA?

You bet we are getting screwed.

Edit to add why we don't see the second set of books.

Horrific.

The waste in our government next to the services rendered is a huge problem.

The amount of money spent on defense next to all other spending in the government is frightening.

Yes, the tax system needs to be rehauled to close corporate loopholes and shift the tax burden away from the middle class and the working poor in America.

The waste in the Pentagon budget has to be reduced and half the money spent to reduce the deficit and the other half to increase benefits for military families.

No more unfunded mandates to sink the local and state governments into debt.

No more corporate welfare.

These are ideas that would greatly reduce the tax burden of the US population in general.

IMHO and all that.

+

Not all states are equal.

NYC for example is a horror show. Federal, local, state, sales tax, high cost of living and outrageous prices on everything.

Blech.

with other states:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/statelocal03.html

with other countries:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/TFDB/TFTemplate.cfm?Docid=307&Topic2id=95

At your income, if you're paying more than 30% of your income in total taxes (that includes sales, property, et. al.), you're probably paying too much. At more than 40%, you're paying way too much

He does it for me.

Here's an interesting link on the subject (taxes, not your relatives)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/04/11/INGV560VO41.DTL

he's probably in the 25 % bracket. The you add 15 % for both halves of social security and medicare. That gets you to 40 % before you even look at property taxes, phone taxes, gas taxes etc.

That glib analytic falls prey to the common American problem of not understanding marginal tax rates. He doesn't pay 25% on all his income, nor does he pay 15% on all his income. For the income tax, he pays 25% only on his adjusted gross income, and only on that part above the parts he pays the lower rates on. It doesn't come out to even close to 25% on his gross. As to the self-employment tax, that's also on below-the-line income (gross less deductions). Not 15%.

But I do truly understand where you're coming from. Always.

TAX DAY!

http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

Check it out. It is a real eye opener.

with preparing your taxes, that is.

I'm not so much concerned about the rate as I am about the system. I'd like to see something progressive that keeps a two-income $60K family from paying as much as FS does, but what bothers me even more is that our system is so complicated that an average family has to shell out for a professional. I'd gladly pay more for a simpler system.

pay SS and Medicare on fourteen thousand of that income. You see the rich get all the tax breaks and you middle income types pay most of them. If the rich paid their fair share of taxes, then your taxes could be legitimately lowered.

Hell, if Gore had been President and had paid down the national debt with the surplus, like he promised to, then in a few years without the crushing interest burden from the national debt, everyone could have enjoyed legitimate tax cuts. Instead Bush has driven up the debt again with no end in sight.

But the freepers fell for Bush's tax cut lies and voted him in because they thought they were going to get $300 back. Whoopee!

You don't pay SS tax on anything over $87,000 per individual. Medicare you pay regardless of income level. I don't see how not paying on SS is getting a tax break given what SS is defined as today.

I need some education here can someone explain what the National Debt represents?

is the only way to be fair and ensure that there are no corporate loopholes. Of course that would go against the income redistribution that so many here advocate. So... I would suggest moving to a state with no income tax. That could help

Bush has shifted the tax burden to the poor and lower middle classes, and away from those who control the vast majority of capital in this country.

This is what happens when people stop paying estate taxes, when capital gains aren't taxed at a reasonable rate, when the top tax rate is way below 40%, and when corporations pay almost no taxes any more.

once as an entity and then again as the individual shareholders claim the income from the dividends.

are easily discounted. Didn't you see the report (i think last week) that showed that 60% of u.s. corporations paid NO taxes last year. So what your stating is not only untrue, it is doubly untrue.

Of those 60% of corporations how many of them were profitable last year?

1) my bad...the article i was referring to was covering the years 1996-2000, not last year

2)from www.sltrib.com/2004/Apr/04122004/opinion/opinion.asp:
<snip>
As millions of Americans prepared to give their annual pound of flesh to the IRS, the government reported that more than 60 percent of U.S. corporations didn't owe any federal taxes between 1996 and 2000.
That's right. Sixty percent paid no federal taxes.
Now that you have caught your breath, please notice that these figures come from the Clinton boom years, when one would naturally have expected the federal coffers to overflow with taxes on corporate profits.
In fact, The Wall Street Journal reported last week, corporate tax receipts actually have shrunk in recent years as a percentage of federal revenues. "By 2003, they had fallen to just 7.4 percent of overall federal receipts, the lowest since 1983, and the second-lowest rate since 1934, federal budget officials say."
The reason? Tax dodging, a venerable American institution for individuals as well as corporations, has become even more deeply rooted in the executive suites of U.S. businesses.
</snip>

yes, i know this doesn't answer your question directly, but i think it gets to the gist of it.

Next?

Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That is zero for translation.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P80242.asp

CNN Money ripped the link on this story.

Eye-opening.

because 60 percent of corporation pay nothing and really really really rich people pay nothing. Thank the Shrub for that ratio!

Did you know that over 50% of federal government agencies haven't been audited in over 6 years! They can't be audited because their books are too screwed up!

Every time someone cries we need to increase spending, remember the money is usually going into a black hole.

* isn't the only one to blame. Look in the mirror, do you vote for politicians who will increase spending believing it will increase services? Well, maybe you should only vote for politicians who will freeze spending and increase services by actually working to make the government effecient.

But, don't mind me, I'm a liberal, I don't spout party jargon.

will ever be audited?


I have no problem paying taxes, because I see the benefits paying them gives me: better roads, help for the poor, state parks, arts, etc. It's the huge-normous corporations and CEO's and billionaires NOT paying taxes that irks me. And the Agencies of the Govt. too.

I don't blame corporations or anybody for not paying their fair share. I've never heard a good explanation of 'fair'?

What I blame is spending and how the money is lost. I just read in CIO magazine that it costs the IRS $.45 to collect $1. That means that the government only has $.55 to spend on administration and services. I don't donate to charities unless they spend at least $.70 of every dollar on the actual services. The governments ratio is probably closer to $.20 of every dollar goes to services.

With this ratio, government services suck.

You're probably right about Homeland Security not being audited. The ratio of unaudited departments will probably increase.

not paying ANY share - forget fair share. All they need to do is open up a little office in one of the islands. Then they get ALL the benefits the US has to offer - free. Then, on top of that, they get government contracts and subsidies. They are being reward for not paying taxes. The taxes they don't pay, you pay, and I pay. They say that's the way it has to be so these corporations can grow and make a profit and provide us with jobs (the jobs they are outsourcing).

Speaking the flat out truth.

I am not against corporations. I am against corporatism!

You have it so right.

I disagree, blame the government, not the corporations. Think of it as root cause.

The governments sets the rules/boundaries we all must live in. It can easily set the rules that businesses can't do business here unless they pay taxes here. Solve the root cause problem and the problem is solved.

I always believed that the government is a counterbalance to corporate greed.

I like to think of it as a sandbox. Businesses can't play in our sandbox unless they follow our rules. If their cat leaves something special in the sandbox, well then they aren't allowed to play.

If you think that the US federal government and corporations are separable entities these days, I suggest you pay more attention.

"It can easily set the rules..." Sure, as long as it can get past the millions spent on lobbying, percs, and campaign funds.

It's not as if the corps just sit idly by, and this disembodied entity called "the government" chooses rules without any input.

Link please to the CIO article you cite.

The entire FIT system is predicated on voluntary payment. When money has to be collected by the IRS, it, of course, adds costs. But, gosh, (even assuming purely for the sake of argument that your numbers are correct), I take it that you believe 55% of something is worse than 100% of nothing.

On rereading your talking points, it occurs to me that you may actually be referring to collection costs for all revenue, as opposed to revenue got through audits and other enforcement actions. If that is your position, can you see the tank-sized hole in your belief? Sure you can: check the federal budget--the IRS does not consume 45% (that honor being reserved for the military budget, which is one of those which does get audited, and has misplace a trillion or so dollars).

As to "The governments ratio is probably closer to $.20 of every dollar goes to services." Would you care to back that up with anything other than your "probably." The numbers are out there; surely you can do better than, "I'd like to pick a number. Any number."

If this is your best shot, it's time to go home and reload.

I want their green little ledgers sent to our mailboxess, so, we the people, can look for ourselves of what is being spent.


:P

I've got to get going now, I'll check it out when I get the chance.

pay for goodies for the rich and for the corporations. That's exactly what happened with the 1986 tax "reform." All tax revisions are supposed to be revenue neutral, so that if you cut taxes for one group, you have to raise them for someone else.

I had to pay $80 in federal tax and I'm receiving a refund from state taxes for $241. Go figure.

?

Is this your total for all taxes (state, federal, gas, property, school, etc...)? If it is state and federal, you need a second opinion.

Also, if you are trying to get a rise out of us (ie. CU mole with tax topic) you are way off base. Most taxes (property, school, gas, etc... ) are state taxes mostly. State taxes went up because the idiot in the white house thought his buddies needed more money. So federal tax lie (I mean cut) equals state and local increase.

FS - Looks like your taxes aren't too bad except for FICA.

Since you are self employed your FICA & medicare should be about $10,000. Leaving $15,000 or 25% as your total "tax" burden. With $4,000 in property tax, leaving $11,000 (18%) for state and federal income plus sales and use tax. Concidering the national average for FIT is 28% I think your tax attorney relative is doing a fair job for you.

What really needs to change is the way the government hides the FICA tax.

the first $86,000 earned. If there was no ceiling, then everyone would be paying their fair share. I also think that the first $5,000 in wages should be deductible for FICA as well as FIT. This way low wage income earners wouldn't be shouldering the majority of the tax burden.

I bet a lot of people on CU and FR would agree with you.

or maybe you can move to somewhere else without taxes or services for that matter.

RL

The majority of the tax burden is being shouldered by the low and middle income earner and the Donald Trumps of the world are paying disproportionately less for their share, if any taxes at all at times, and yet they are using more of the services. Also, I personally wouldn't resent taxes so much if they were being used for social programs that everyone benefits from, like health care, education and child care instead of being used to bolster corporate profits.

to fix the roads.

They are a dang nuisance.

I ask because your property and mortgage taxes are deductible so listing $4000 in property taxes is not quite accurate. The actual impact to how much tax you PAID will be less than your bill says.

After reading your post agian I see you state that you are "...taxed too much" but you back that up with how much in taxes you paid. The two are different for one reason I listed above.

Let me pose this question back to you in the spirit of open debate. If you didn't have to pay any taxes(that's none of those you listed and all that account for your $25,000), how much would you expect to pay for those services the taxes went to cover?

Gas tax - maintain roads
Fed Inc tax - Gov't, Defense, etc
SS tax - SS retirement
Property tax - local services - Fire/Police/etc

If NO one paid these taxes, who would maintain these societal/communal items?

I pose these in all seriousness, and without intentions of a gotcha.

fob

The necessities of a good society cost money. It is unsettling when three middle class families pay more fed. income taxes than Microsoft. No offense to Billy G., he is quite the philanthropist.

That is 41.6% of your income. Come that to Dick Cheney who paid 19.5% of his income in taxes.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The White House also released the 2003 tax return filed by Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife, Lynne. They reported $1.3 million in adjusted gross income and owed $253,067 in federal taxes. The Cheneys' 2003 tax bill -- much lower than the $341,114 they paid for 2002 on just slightly less money -- represented just 20 percent of their income.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bush-Income-Taxes.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------

How do those tax cuts look now?

we need to make sure the top 1 percent pays a fair share. With all the loopholes in the tax law for both the rich and U.S. corporations, the cuts in capital gains and lack of responsible gov't spending, the middle class would basically get a tax cut. The surplus would be so large that they would almost be forced to cut the taxes of %99 percdent of Americans.