Look, there's something people on here don't want to admit...

And that is that the inherent stubbornness of people trumps all. It trumps party lines. It trumps ideology. It trumps all else.

More so than how many democrats or republicans or swing voters there are...more so than any of this the largest cross section of people in this country don't want to be told they are wrong. Don't want to be told they made a mistake. Don't want to be told they backed a miscalculation or a lie or an all around bad decision. Whether that decision is who they voted for, or whether that decision is backing a military action, or just in general not wanting to admit that things might not otherwise be 100%.

There is so much shock and people being aghast at how people could look at the press conference last night and not see what we saw. The fact is that even democrats, even people who don't like *, even people who were oppossed to the war will fall prey to this sense of stubbornness. I see it in people I know. It screams "I know I am wrong...I know I was wrong...I know we made a mistake....but I will be cold in my grave before I will ever admit that or want anyone pointing it out to me...and if you do point it out to me I will react even more strongly against it and insist even more vehemently that you are wrong."

We were the beneficiaries of this ourselves during the Clinton years. The more people on the right pointed out Clintons shortcomings and mistakes, the more people rallied behind him. The effect may not be AS strong now given all that is going badly or wrong, but the fact is that it is there and we cannot do anything about it. Just hope for the best.

Some people I talk with who voted for Bush just can't come up with arguments to my points about Bush... and they just leave the conversation "Well I don't know who I'll vote for in November." That's just pure hog wash... they just don't want to admit defeat and will most likely vote for the SOB a second time. Makes me sick.

It screams "I know I am wrong...I know I was wrong...I know we made a mistake....but I will be cold in my grave before I will ever admit that or want anyone pointing it out to me...and if you do point it out to me I will react even more strongly against it and insist even more vehemently that you are wrong."

You put it very well... very clearly.

Now why do you think people choose to behave that way?

And, given that they do, is there any way of getting around that or penetrating that frame of mind?

...or as my grandma would say, being mule headed.

I talked to my in-laws the other day. My MIL is a dittohead and my FIL will never vote for a Democrat either. I think they get most of their opinions from Imus and my MIL also gets hers from Rush and Fox News. They made some disparaging Kerry comments and then I said in a wondering, disbelieving fashion, "Do you mean you are really going to vote for Bush?"

My MIL said, "Oh... I think I'm going to just stay home, it's all a mess." And my FIL said, "I haven't decided yet, but I'll probably stay home too." They also said that my sister-in-law, who is probably very close to the typical soccer-mom, says she is definitely staying home and not voting.

I figure that means my in-laws are going to vote for Bush but are too embarrassed to admit it! I think that maybe the Republicans, the dittoheads and freepers and most of the mainstream media are all starting to get isolated by public opinion and popular culture and just plain reality. They had felt so triumphant and the talk radio and cable news had made them feel so good about their Republican values, but now they are feeling like they aren't in the mainstream anymore and they hate that.

I've been thinking lately that this group of people might get sent back into the closet again with their nationalism and racism and war-mongering and all that, just like what happened in the sixties and seventies.

to the Country, that people start making jokes. For the Repugs to be laughed at means they've lost. Means that when any of their spokespeople come on TV people start snickering at them like Imus does about everyone.

The Repugs won when they made Clinton a joke, if Bush becomes a joke he becomes like Clinton and every one who speaks up for him becomes a joke too.

This is our best hope, because I agree, people are stubborn and won't change their opinion that Bush did the right thing in Afghanistan and Iraq and had no idea about 9/11 but when troops are dying and Iraq is imploding he will start to look ridiculous. No one wants to look like they support a fool who has bungled his job and suffer being laughed at because of that.

:shrug:

On the one hand are some real mad Democrats as witnessed by the turn out in the primaries. On the other hand there are those who would never vote Democratic but just aren't charged up that much about Bush anymore. I think a lot of Bush voters are simply just not going to vote this time around while a lot of Democrats will make the effort because they are on a mission. I think the 'mission' is gone for a lot of Bush supporters.

We were the beneficiaries of this ourselves during the Clinton years. The more people on the right pointed out Clintons shortcomings and mistakes, the more people rallied behind him. The effect may not be AS strong now given all that is going badly or wrong, but the fact is that it is there and we cannot do anything about it. Just hope for the best.

It was not the attacks that drove Clinton's numbers up. As I recall from a class on politics and the media, Clinton's numbers went up because he was still governing, and doing things that people supported.

There's a tendency, if it sounds like its turning into partisan bickering, for the general populace to tune out the talking heads and pay attention to what's actually being done.

People weren't dying in illegal wars and people had jobs...

But it does apply somewhat I think. I know a lot of people who didn't vote for Clinton, didn't like Clinton, but who hated that the president of our country was being put through the ringer like that. May not have been a majority, but nor would I say it is a majority in bush's case either. But enough to give certain opinions and polls and whatnot that perception

People stuck with Clinton because times were good and the issues with him were trivial, personal or trumped up.

I don't care how many people worship Smirk and think he cannot make a mistake. There had to have been thousands who saw him last night and thought "Gee, he keeps saying we're making progress and it's the right thing to do by continuing what we're doing in Iraq. Yet every day I read the paper and I see it's getting worse. How much is this gonna cost again?"

He can't hide the fact that his "plan" to end terrorism is to stay in Iraq for years and that will cost billions and billions. Even rich republicans don't want to do that.

But take heart. The polls were at 90 percent just two years ago. We were the 10 percenters then,... and now... well let's just say it won't be long we will be joined by all but 30 percent.

that they were wrong about something so important. They can't believe that they were sold a bill of goods.

I am a stubborn liberal...I don't like to admit defeat (even though it really never happens arguing with idiot neocons). When I do, though, it will not be to some Limbaugh-sucking, O'Reilly-fondling, Ann Coulter-screwing neocon. It'll most likely be to a McCain or Ford conservative, the ones who are rather disenchanted with this administration. They use facts--something that is like a taser to the neocon right.

is even when things get really bad we have a tendency to make excuses for those we admire. It's like a battered syndrome, where excuses are prominent until there is a "bottom out" when it's so obvious it's undeniable. I see the Bush supporters really jumping on the bandwagon after last night's press conference 'cause he's --once again--given them false hope in the situation in Iraq. For those of us who KNOW he's full of shit, it irritates us even more. There's very few in between these days. It's either all or nothing.

going into election 2004. This is why, no matter how strong the temptation to rub it in, we must welcom any and all converts without judgement or abuse for past support of the Shrub.