Howard Zinn on AA now...

..such an extraordinary man

I've heard a number of his lectures on "Alternative Radio." I'm glad that Garofalo and Seder have latched on to Zinn, as well!

Yeah :headbang:

I agree with him on his assessment of Kerry, if anyone is listening and do not feel so out of it with my personal doubts about Kerry.

a tiny ledge to stand on.

...he's exactly right about Kerry, but he's also positive, saying that it's up to *US* to push Kerry in the direction of greater progressivism

I agree with everything he has said so far. Kerry would do well to hire him as an advisor.

and Hiroshima

Tarzan. That's so cool. ERB was one of my first loves as a child too.

I've always opposed the war in Iraq, but we are stuck with it. Pulling out would be a disaster. Its also morally wrong, since we broke the place we have to fix it.

If Kerry advocates withdrawal now he'll lose the election. Kucinich suggested the same thing in the primaries and got almost no votes even among Dems.

Dems finally have a voice on the radio and its being used to fight with each other instead of the Republicans. Its always the same excuse from the far left...that it would benefit the candidate to push him toward a platform only a tiny minority agrees with. Its like they want to lose.

The same minority is never satisfied with any amount of concessions. There is no strategic benefit in compromising with them because they'll walk over something in the end anyway. They are just like that. I hope Kerry writes off people like Zinn and goes to the middle where voters are reasonable.

If the far left doesn't like the war in Iraq then they should have been more loyal when Gore was running. They'll probably all run to Nader in the end this year too and give up our country to fascism. Zinn is already a nuisance to a tough effort to take the country back.

"Dems finally have a voice on the radio and its being used to fight with each other instead of the Republicans."

Nonsense. I don't see it being used by the left to fight with each other. I see the left wing hosts all over the country going after the Republicans each and every broadcast I've heard.

The left doesn't have to walk in lock step. We explore all corners of our left wing. I may not agree with Zinn on every single position he holds. But I love to hear him and give his philosophy lots of thought. That's how I grow. Giving him a venue is the way of the left.

Edit: Didn't you hear Zinn agree that voting for Kerry was the way to go? It was early on in the interview. Seems to me that you're going off half cocked. Please get the facts straight and stop posting falsehoods of both left wing radio and Howard Zinn.

He said the left should vote for Kerry but that they should pressure him to advocate pulling out of Iraq. Since Kerry can't do that, all this guy can do is hurt turnout. If Kerry doesn't give in to the pressure he'll lose votes. Otherwise, it isn't pressure.

The idea of pressuring Kerry is being made on other threads here too.

I don't see any falsehoods I've posted. I haven't heard anything else like this on Air America but it surely was on tonight. The interviewers are also pushing this point of view.

Your edited paragraph seems angry. A minute ago you told me you are open to all opinions. How about mine?

I'm an old fashioned Democrat who believes in party loyalty. I agree that the party should be wide open to different views during the primaries. I also believe that without loyalty all the previous debate is meaningless. There's no sense to having a party if we all are just going to go our own ways.

The people who wanted to pull out of Iraq had a fair chance to raise their views and I never complained. Its time to pull together. If the far left doesn't want to help the party should move on.

Is Zinn the same guy who heckled Kerry at that rally in New York? That sure didn't help beat Bush.

"How about mine?"

I object to your mangled interpretation of what Zinn was saying. You implied that Zinn wouldn't vote for Kerry if Kerry didn't bow under pressure regarding the war. That isn't true. He said that if Kerry gets into office, we have a "small ledge to stand on". If Bush gets into office, we'll have none. That hardly supports your interpretation of Zinn's thoughts on Kerry. Zinn agreed with Garofolo that voting for Kerry was necessary.

And you said that left wing radio is being used to have us fight against each other. Again, I haven't heard this at all. It's a figment of your imaginatiuons given that this Zinn interview is your only example.

So, it's not an opinion that I'm objecting to. It's that you put forth falsehoods as facts.

Take the last word if you wish. I've had mine.

He said the real issue is not simply getting Kerry elected. He said that it would be up to us to influence Kerry toward the ideals of traditional democrats and progressives, not just "pull out of Iraq" which was not even the primary subject of what he was talking about.

There is nothing wrong with saying that we the people must take control and demand that our leaders remain firmly committed to the ideals of social justice and greater political, social and economic equality for all people, for honor and decency internationally, and for peace wherever possible.

There will certainly be forces pressuring our leaders in the other direction, his message is, as it has always been, that the power is with the people.

Your question, "Is Zinn the same guy who heckled Kerry at that rally in New York?" is telling. Go learn who Howard Zinn is. He is not anyone's enemy. No, check that - he probably seems like the enemy to evil people. That's not you.

Among all the other things Zinn is, he is a pacifist. You don't have to agree with every point the guy makes, but you're picking the wrong fight by coming off so dismissively toward a man who is arguably one of the most important voices for social equality and justice of the modern day.

Listen, I'm not pooh poohing your first paragraph, in fact, I believe I said something similar many months ago. I think our hearts are in the same place - we want to do what is most just toward the Iraqi people.

However, the more I look at things, the more I think it is impossible for our military presence to ever be a part of the solution.

That's the part of the argument that I think is intelligent. As for the rest, its clear to me that you have no previous exposure to Zinn at all. In fact, did you even listen to any or all of Zinn's radio appearance? Have you read any of his work? Do you in fact, know anything about him or are you just talking? If so, please name me specifically how you are familiar with Zinn, what works you have read of his in their entirety?

If that sounds confrontational, I can only respond that I don't think it is unfair to expect a critic of a person to be familiar with his work. If you were actually familiar with Zinn at all, I think you would realize that writing off people "like Zinn" means writing off people who believe in social equality as a highest priority, people who believe that "true patriotism can mean not a blind obedience to a nation’s leaders, but a commitment to help one’s neighbors and to help anyone, regardless of race or nationality, achieve a decent life." - a quote from Howard Zinn. Writing off people like Zinn means writing off people committed to tell the story of the working class, people pointing out how imperialism undermines democracy, people courageously standing up to racism and sexism, people who are committed to the plight of the poor, people who are passionately concerned about principles of peace and freedom not just for a privileged few, but for all people.

Zinn's pacifism is one element and one element only of an extraordinary social critic and historian. Your comment about Dems using radio to fight with each other instead of Republicans only bears witness to the fact that you didn't really listen to the show. Zinn was not bashing Kerry - his comments were focused on when Kerry is elected and Bush is defeated, it will be up to people like us to influenced him toward principles of progressivism and social justice. His message was that it is up to us, not that we shouldn't vote for Kerry. And if you would have listened you would know that. It was not a confrontational interview, in fact if anything, it was inspiring and encouraging.

Getting Kerry elected is important, but after that the real work of moving the country in a radically new direction begins. We can't afford to elect a president who quietly carries forward with a similar agenda; we don't want a "kinder, gentler imperialism," or "Empire-lite." We want a serious change toward that long dreamed of great society. The only reason that language seems over the top is when people assume something like that would happen over night. It won't. But we can guarantee it will never happen if we the people don't keep demanding that our elected leaders, DLC democrats included, take seriously a public demand for a more just and honorable society for all peoples, not just some.

Recommended reading by Howard Zinn.

This book is required reading here. Sixth grade, I think.

Very scary and horrifyingly realistic.

I read it one summer during my high school years. It was definitely the book that set me on the left path. What a wonderful novel. And the movie was darned good, too! I love the actress who played Ma. She played the role with so much heart.

and it scared me then