How do you respond to those who say that the military is

"fighting for our freedom" in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., who say that the U.S. is there to deliver the "gift" of "freedom" to the Iraqis? I ask this because I do not understand why military families so readily buy into the lies. In interviews, they say that theit husbands, wives, siblings, children are "defending our country." I also ask this because my definition of "freedom" may be different from the "official" governmental/cultural party line, and that the American notion of "freedom" is different from that of other nations, cultures, and peoples. (On "NOW with Bill Moyers" last night, they had a Middle East Studies professor from Columbia U. who spoke on this.)

Point out how Bush, Wolfie, etc are lying to the world and misusing our soldiers. Reframe the question to how it actually is: a bunch of ideologues playing with what, to them, are toy soldiers.

NOT ALL MILIARY FAMILIES buy into this... that is YOUR PERCEPTION reinformced by a supine press... (They are chosen carefully by Public Affairs Officers)

Secondly, you are making a caricature of the commitment of the troops, which is TO THE CONSITUTION, not a specific governent

Thid, you are also making the common mistake of asssuming troops HAVE A CHOICE in teh missions they take, FREE CLUE, they don't. It is up to us, military families (and former military families) to clue you in. After all you have not haerd much from those who are agains this war, because the Public Affairs Officers MAKE SURE that is the case.

Nadin
Whose husband was on the line defending YOUR FREEDOM to post this for twenty long years in the United States Navy.

Oh and by the way, I opposed this war from word go, and when I started doing things and becoming vocal, MY FEAR were repercusions towards my husband... or other things that they can do. Follow how the wives of the First AD troopers have been treated, aka read the Stars and Stropes story.

if the abused military families end up taking down the industrial military complex. Sorry am fantasizing. . .

You are not fantasizing, the miltiary knows that the first tour they recruit the service member, afer that they recruit the family, the whole family. Many good soldiers leave because the significant other said no to one more tour.

With what is going on, many significant others are demanding the service member retires... or leaves just short of retirement, and this short of retirement means loosing a lot of things that the family was counting on, such as a military pension or medical care later on in life.

Also many significant others have had a lot to think about, after all over the years they have been fed the same pablum the rest of the population has been fed... the dems are weak on defense. This translates to a military family to "my SO will not have the gear he \ she needs to achieve the mission"... regardless of what that mission is. Well these days we are in the middle of a war and the supply problems (courtesy of Halliburton) are beyond FUBARED. Spare parts for Navy ships are non existent, bullets are non existent, food is non existent, yet who is in charge of the show? Oh yeah those who were suposed to be STRONG ON DEFENSE... for the record the forces lost no trooper during Kosovo, and they had what they needed to achieve the mission, as well as a clear mission and an exit strategy. Right now there is none of that. This is leading to many families dong some hard thinking and word on base, before we moved back and PSDed out of the miltiary was Anybody but Bush, now I suspect it is Kerry.

Now it is time that peoople on the left think of the military as a mini cosmos of the population at large. Are there bush lickers in the military? YOU BETCHA, are there hard core liberals in the armed forces? YES... and everythign in between... support anmong sevice members for this war is not 100%, the difference, they cannot tell you this... as they are in uniform and it woudl mean questionig their commander in chief, an officer appointed above them.

rather than varied and diverse.

You're point about the family dynamics of joining the military is very important to remember.

Personally, I've known about Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers since I was 10 years old and wouldn't consider putting my life at risk or be told who the 'enemy' is by such a corrupt and lying chain of command. Ever.

I have a friend who is African American and retired military who voted for Shrub even though the Repubs have been taken over by KKK policies. But his father and uncle had been in the service and he bought into the 'strong on defense' bullshit.

There is also a culture of meritocracy within the military that gives the illusion of a just society. But the military is used to PREVENT DEMOCRACY at home and abroad. Quite the paradox. Nazis will promote Jews in the ranks as long as they are dutifully manning the ovens. Look at Condi and Colin.

It's very painful to admit that your government is abusive like a bad dad and people don't want to believe how fucked up our national family is. They desperately want to believe in all the patriotic propaganda about the US being Superman Jesus in a cowboy hat.

because your important points get obscured. I'm NOT disagreeing with you. I do think, however, that military families are subjuct to considerable psy-ops.

psy ops on the road to war... the military family had the added burden of sending somebody into harms way.

but as I see it, the only threat to my freedom of speech, my freedom to post,has come from WITHIN this country, from the so-called religious and moral and academic and -- to an extent -- governmental "thought police."

Read the oath of enlistement, or citizenship....

It includes the line "to Protect the Constitution against ALL ENEMIES, both foreign and DOMESTIC."

What category do you think the thought police? or for that matter some of our cuirrent Fascists fall under?

A litle US History, back in '73 Congress asked the Chief of Staff, and I paraphrase, "where does the miltary stand in this crisis?"

His answer, "We stand behind the the US Constitution," which baffled the Congressman asking the question. These days I hear that line more often than not, from Military personnel. I fear that you will be pleasantly surprised if this crisis devolves into a fight for the Constitution, and hopefully the surprise will be very pleasant to you.

Sadly, your own biases are preventing you from seeing the military as citizens, which they are... and this is a blind spot for the left. The right has its own blind spots, and I know that this one comes from the Vietnam period.

they now think Falluja should be "nuked"

To military families I just listen and attempt to create rapport that might be useful later. They're not in a place to participate in discussion on this issue, they're trying to get a son, daughter, mother, father, sister or brother home safely and trying to have some sort of a shelter to explain the emptiness of the deaths of the ones who don't make it and the ruin it creates in the lives of many who do.

For folks who aren't totally apalled because they haven't been paying attention I have a whole pocket full of innocuous sounding questions that lead to them to form conclusions that are mutually contradictory. I don't try to get them to admit the contradiction since that will just put them up on their hind feet. But it does create room for progress.

For folks who are actually aligned with the idea of imposing our image on other cultures I get sort of in their faces and don't really expect to create any change. Entertaining, but not productive. Avoid it if there's anything worthwhile to do.