Quick question... Can you pray in public schools?

I got this in my e-mail:


"Mary had a little lamb,
His fleece was white as snow.
And everywhere that Mary went,
The Lamb was sure to go.
He followed her to school each day,
T'wasn't even in the rule.
It made the children laugh and play,
To have a Lamb at school.
And then the rules all changed one day,
Illegal it became;
To bring the Lamb of God to school,
Or even speak His Name.! ;
Every day got worse and worse,
And days turned into years.
Instead of hearing children laugh,
We heard shots and tears.
What must we do to stop the crime,
That's in our schools today?
Let's let the Lamb come back to school,
And teach our kids to pray!
If you agree, please pass this on
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I
have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about
having "In God
We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge
of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to shut up and
sit down???? If you agree, pass this on, if not delete..."

I responded with (reply all!) and got a great response with:


You can pray in public school, you can talk about God in school, God
is in no way banned from public schools.

However this poem implies that the 86% of Americans who believe in
God, believe in the same God. Even if that was true, I'm really not
comfortable with telling any group of people, no matter who they are
to "shut up and sit down". Reminds me a little of oppression, and
oppression is not at all a christian ideal.

To imply that Columbine or any other school shooting could have been
prevented if prayer was taught in school is flawed. These girls had
religion class every day and that did not stop them
(http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/03/07/national/main277004.shtml).

The reason the Constitution separates church and state is because
America is a diverse state. To force anyone to learn learn about one
faith, one religion, one God, is completely unfair and contrary to
the founding ideals of this country. Religious freedom anyone?

Just think how you'd feel, been a devoted Catholic, if the only
school you could go to (as in you could not afford private school)
taught Judaism or Islam.

Look at some of the the countries in the world that have religion
fused into government and see why it might be a good idea to keep
government and religion as separate as possible: Iran, former Iraq,
Israel, Palestine, etc.

I look forward to a response."

Except for this one e-mail which was negative all responses were positive:

"um yeah, i have no clue if you meant to send this to a whole bunch of people or just mary, but whats your problem? why do you have to crush other people hope. AND you can't publically pray in a public school in a class. if you think you made a point, you didnt."

So my question is CAN you privately pray in public schools? I'm gonna give this lady hell...

Kids can pray by themselves. That's a red herring.

kids can pray in school. In fact they do it all the time. There are annual "Meet at the Pole" days at public high schools all across the country where students pray around the flag pole.

Students can even have their own bible study groups after school if they want. They just can't be forced to attend, and it has to be initiated by the students not the school itself.

I don't have a problem if students themselves want a moment of silence to pray. I do have a problem, though, when they compel other students to do it.

The issue that these people seem to have is that prayer is not MANDATED in schools, not whether it is allowed. Of course a student can pray, either independently or in a school sponsored after school activity. There are groups such as Meet at the Flagpole, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, etc. which exist in schools all over the nation.

The Supreme Court has NEVER ruled that all prayer would be banned from public schools- just that religion could not be FORCED upon a captive audience of school children. The Lemon case and its progeny have simply prohibited the schools from becoming prostelitizing agents for any of the religious sects.

These supposed Christians are just the ones who want to force their view of religion on others, and are not happy that prayer is merely allowed in schools. They want it to be required.

Yes, absolutely you can pray in school. You can even have a bible club - pray around the flagpole in the morning, etc.

This is a straw man.

I've done it a few times. Have any DUers heard from their kids if they have them about the moment of silence, that can be used for prayer. Organized prayer is prohibited and for good reason too but me I pray privately sometimes.

but why would you want to?

Matthew 6:5-6 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues
and in the corners of the streets, that they may be
seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and
when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The subject of a great Roger Ebert column this summer.

it's only organized prayer, where students would have to make their non-participation public, that's banned.

voluntary, spontaneous prayer is, of course, perfectly legal.

Ive heard that one before. Of course there is prayer in school. Before every test, quiz, or pop quiz granted its not the prayer the ditto monkeys want but it is prayer :evilgrin:.

learning about religion, all religions, is, IMO, vital for all children and should be taught in schools. Schools shouldn't PUSH a particular religion, but rather should expose all of the worlds religions to our children, so that they can be more knowledgable about the world community. Included in this list of religions should be the view of the agnostics (like me :)), and of the atheists.

. . . it's almost impossible to deliver on this idea.

Teachers are human. You automatically have problems with people who attempt to teach "Bible as History" type courses, because some will try to sneak in their biases, while others will inadvertently insult one group or another when attempting to explain what the Bible means.

Example: Most fundamentalists claim to believe in a "literal" interpretation of the Bible. A teacher who tries to deal with the creation stories immediately has a problem - do you interpret the narrative as myth, or as actual fact? Or, do you try to come up with an awkward mix of both? It's extremely difficult even when you DON'T have personal biases.

I am always weary of religion in the education arena, but if done objectively, and in an arena were the kids can guide the discussion, I think it is completely harmless, Granted the teacher should moderate. You get into problems when you just have the teach tell everyone about it, because then the skewing begins, intentionally or unintentionally.

in 1960) there were 6 or 9 hours, I forget which, required of religion classes. The U was then an endowed school, hence the requirement. I picked "comparative religions" and "history of christianity". Ironically (and I mean this in the proper sense, rather than the all too common misuse these days as a synomym for 'coincidental') my studies in these classes caused me to abandon my upbringing as a christian and become an atheist.

funny how stuff works, eh?
;-)

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

Simply point to the "Meet you at the Flag Pole" annual event to prove, ad hoc prayer in school is not only legal, it is protected!

What is illegal is an assembly in school where a prayer is said.

It is illegal for the teacher to start the day with a teacher lead prayer.

Again, only government sponsored and mandated prayer is illegal in schools. Prayer can never be banned in school.

Further proof, tests.

the only thing you can NOT do is force anyone else to pray, and teachers CAN NOT pray during class time or tell their students to do so. The only thing a teacher can do is ask for a moment of silence.

ask us to say our prayers in privte , go to the closet or pray in a room by yourself , why is it so important for these right nuts to have a group of children to hold hands and pray , my prayers are special and to jesus and what i pray for is'nt anybodys buiness but mind

"And when you pray, you are not to be as the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners, in order to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your father who is in secret, and your father who sees in secret will repay you" (Matthew 6:5,6 NASB).

that fundies don't understand?

For all their claims of "literal interpretation" they seem more than willing to ignore what doesn't happen to fit their agenda.

to God's army. Now if nobody knows about it but you, well.. It's salesmanship.

You can pray all you damn well please.

eom

encourage, condone, sponsor, or otherwise lead the prayer. Courts have ruled many times, however, that students have a right to pray as much as they want.

Just as many other posters have pointed out students have the right to pray. They have the right to organize prayer groups.

Teachers can pray but cannot lead students in prayer in their official capacity as teachers.

Here is a link to the U.S. Dept of Education

http://www.ed.gov/inits/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html

And as they say, so long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school.

Now to another point, in all that was stated

"The reason the Constitution separates church and state is because
America is a diverse state."

This is anything but true.

The seperation of Church and State had to do with eliminating the power of any Church over State as had happened in Europe with the Roman Catholic Church. It exersized considerable control over a number of countries. On the British Isle it was replaced with Henry's version and the Kirk in Scotland. It is also widely professed that this signified that America was envisioned as a totally secular state by the founders. This was not true either but they did profess religeous tolerance. Well, after they burnt the wiches and slaughtered the natives they got around to tolerance. I don't think that they ever envisioned quite the diversity of faiths that would ultimately appear.

Separation of church and state in this country goes back to Roger Williams. He got into trouble with the Puritans because he was uncompromisingly against allowing the state to have any influence over religion whatsoever. For example, he didn't think magistrates should be able to administer oaths.

On the whole, governments have always been perfectly happy to get tangled up with religion, because they know it increases their own power. Religions, on the other hand, have a great deal to lose from being co-opted by governments, since it can only corrupt and weaken them. (Probably the best thing that ever happened to Christianity was the fall of the Roman Empire.)

The fact that the fundamentalists don't see this, and have fallen into the Puritans' trap of believing that a government they controlled would be spiritually pure, inclines me to believe that they have ceased being religious in any genuine sense and (to use a decidedly old-fashioned term) are simply serving the Master of the World.

Think about it, what is anyone going to say if a kid takes a few minutes before class or during recess to pray by himself or even in a group just as long as no one is being forced to do it and no one gets hurt and it's not in the middle of class or something.

is to pick the religion you disagree with most -- be it catholicism or santeria or wicca or episcopalianism -- and ask if you would be OK with a representative of that religion picking the prayer your child is compelled to join in.

That's why limiting prayer to a private, voluntary act is so important.

I don't think you are allowed to do it outloud, or atleast they shouldn't be allowed to.

That's been covered pretty well by others so I'll merely confirm it. You can.

In fact if you take a peek in a local school during FCAT week you'll see all of em praying in some way. Students, teachers, administrators, and so on. All of em. :)

That's what recess is for. You can pray, but the government-funded employees cannot lead you in a prayer.

I'm an agnostic, and was one when I was in H.S. and college. I put in a word to the Big Yazoo when I didn't study before a test and nobody stopped me. As far as I know anybody who cares to can pray anytime they like.

Daily enforced prayer certainly has provided peace to the middle east...hasn't it?

I mean, do you absolutely have to hold your hands together while you pray. As an agnostic, I just close my eyes and concentrate when I pray, which could be done anywhere.

In the kneeling-hand-meld deal, it should be respected. Same with the carpet-bowing deal, respected. Religion requires praying from the devout, and they should be able to do it wherever they are.

I did it all the time. I just didn't do it out loud to make a show of my piety to everone else.

Please, God, let me pass this test.

Please, God, don't let me trip and fall when I walk past her.

Please, God, don't let the teacher call on me.

Schools are, and always have been, a hotbed of prayer.

You can pray in the privacy of your own home as much as you want. I find it offensive when people pray in my presence.

in public school or out of it. What you cannot do is make everyone stop and give you a moment of silence in which to do so; your prayer may not infringe on other people's business.

When bush says peace, he means war.

When the religious right start ranting about prayer in school, prayer doesn't mean prayer. It means organized, public, group mandated prayer. Just like the morning pledge. When the whole school gets up to do the pledge, not everyone has to recite it. If students (or teachers!) choose not to recite the pledge with everyone else for religious or other reasons, they are expected to stand quietly and respectfully. No going about your business while others say the pledge. This is what the advocates for school "prayer" want. Not prayers, but public, organized, mandated prayer/moment of silence in my classroom, taken out of my instructional time.

A kid would probably get in trouble for disrupting the pledge, and some teachers make kids stand, but the Supreme Court ruling on that issue (sorry, I don't remember the name of the case, but I think it was somebody v. State Board of Ed. of W. Va.?) said that you can't be forced to change or assume a certain position during the pledge -- e.g., stand up, bow head, put hand over heart. The first decision allowing people not to say the pledge (issued on Flag Day in the middle of WWII, to make a point, it seems) didn't address this issue, I guess. The first decision has some pretty powerful words about freedom of conscience.

These folks god is really, really, tiny- it's really an extension of their own egos, fears, and hates.

It's not a god I would ever believe in or pray to. It's the god of dead fetuses and low taxes.

If god existed, any thought or communication to her would, by definition, be a prayer.

Couldn't really stop it, no?


Is thinking about intimate relations with the teacher banned too?

Forbid it almighty void!

the 'laws' that these people are talking about only say that public schools cannot ENDORSE religious events.; ANY religion.

If the majority of students and their families of a school district were, say, Hindu; do you think these particular people passing off this prattle would endorse praying to Shiva in the morning?

Every person in this country has the right and privledge to practice their religious beliefs. Praying in private is not now, nor has it ever been 'banned'.

What I cannot fathom, is WHY the schools are being targeted? There are a zillion other places where people of any faith can gather. The only reason I can see, is that a group of people, with an agenda, (yes, read fundies), feel that their particular brand of religion should be forced upon children, without the approval of the parents of those children.

For the record, i am a Christian, but most definately, NOT a fundy!

Obviously a firm believer in the tyranny of the majority.

I've received several of these also and while they sometimes have a slightly different message (One is purportedly a prayer from a young schoolgirl in the SouthWest) it's still in context with the ending below, which is always the same.


If you agree, please pass this on
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I
have a very hard time understanding why there is such a mess about
having "In God
We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge
of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to shut up and
sit down???? If you agree, pass this on, if not delete..."


While the 86% figure above sounds reasonable, I would guess that the % of people insisting on mandated public prayer in this country isn't anywhere near a majority.... and I'm not calling for them to sit down and shut up.

in the public schools, there will be prayer there as well."

.

You just can't get on the intercom and ask everyone else to pray with you. It can't be organized within the schools.

The man himself (Jesus) instructs believers not to pray in public as the hypocrites do but to go into your room or closet and pray unto the Father and the Father will hear you.

Those emails sent out make me sad for people who can't see beyond their little worlds. Prayer came into school when I was in grade school. We recited it, had no idea what it meant and went about our business. Oh, yes, of course, no one would be hurting, shooting, stabbing anyone if they could still say that little prayer. God save us from people with pea sized minds. The Bible also says to be always in a prayerful state, communicating with the Lord all day about all matters big and small. That would be silently or people would look like they needed an evaluation at the nearest psych center.

Did you ever hear the little story about a man arriving in heaven and being shown around. He saw a very large wall and asked what it was for. Oh, that is where we keep the Baptists. They think they are the only ones here and we play along.

The Pledge was authored in my hometown by Francis Bellamy without "under God" in it. Put in there by congress in 54 to show the communists that we were "Christians" so they say. Sometimes I wonder why we aren't still hunting witches in Salem. What a world, eh?

JUST BE QUIET ABOUT IT.