Discuss Pat Tillman Here.

Sorry folks, there are way too many threads on this topic, and people are just posting flame bait.

No more new threads. You may continue discussion here.

Crack that whip!!!!

I love it!!

:D

good idea.

I don't see what the tumult is about. A young man died. That's a tragedy whenever it happens. End of story.

I was going to post and ask how many threads we needed about him, but that would just be one more thread, and probably get me accused of ... well, who knows :D

and makes the average, usually-out-of-touch American think about the consequences of this war for more than ten seconds at a time is a good thing, ok?

Hero? Who knows. Does it really matter?

At least the average American is paying attention and putting a face on all of those coffins.

Edit: and yes, I do realize that most of those coffins are coming home from Iraq, not Afghanistan.

The average American, however, thanks to the Bush clowns and the media, doesn't always seem to make that differentiation.

bush lied - he died

He had his own frame of refrence (we don't know what it was). He had his own understanding of the situation (we don't know what it was). He may have believed lies or may have had a grasp of the truth (we don't know which). So unless we believe he was omniscient, harping on someone who sacrificed their life is just bad taste people.

Why Are the Sacrifices of the Rich Valued More Than Those of the Poor?


I recently buried my mother and in a day of touching moments one moment stood out for me. I was opening cards and saw one from the mother of a friend containing a $10 bill. This lady is on SSI and has very little money. It is entirely possible that the $10 in that card represented the sum total of her free money for the week or even the month. The idea that this woman gave up what for her was such a large amount of money really, deeply touched me. Yet, if Bill Gates had a program where he gave random grieving familiies $10,000, it would be he that most people would have remarked on. Why is that? By any measure that modest amount given by the lady who gave us that card would be vastly more of a sacrifice for her than the $10,000 would have been for Bill Gates.

Last Thursday provided another example of this phenomena. Pat Tillman, a safety for the Arizona Cardinals who turned down a $3.5 million contract, was killed in Afghanistan. By the count of this site http://lunaville.org/OEF/default.aspx
he was the 187th US casualty in Afghanistan. Yet I, like most other people, couldn't name a single other person off the top of my head who perished there. Why is that? After all, many of them had families. All of them had chosen to enlist. And some of them had chosen to do so after September 11th. So why do we value Pat Tillman so much more?

In part, it is because people like Pat Tillman have become so rare. It has become all but unthinkable that a rich, handsome young man would voluntarily pass up more money in order to actually serve his nation in a military capacity. Our military is composed largely of the children of our former military, the children of our servants, the children of our laborers, and so on. They are rarely the children of our doctors, our lawyers, or our lawmakers. And they are virtually never the children of our professional athletes. I remember the case of an Annapolis grad named Robinson who got drafted into the NBA. He was permitted, unlike any other person, to 'serve' his remaining service years in the NBA. The person who let this happen was Secretary of the Navy Lehman who is now on the September 11 Commission.

This wasn't always the case. For much of our history the rich were expected to serve in our military. There was a whole theory, called noblesse oblige, that insured that very thing. Roughly translated it means "From those to whom much is given, much is expected. A young Princess Elizabeth, roughly the same age as the Bush twins, served as a nurse in WWII. Joe Kennedy, nearly the wealthiest man in the country, had two sons serve in WWII, lost one, and nearly lost the other. Ted Williams, Joe Dimagio, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, and Elvis all served in the military. Abe Lincoln and Franklin Delano Roosevelt both had sons in the wars they led. For much of our history, the idea of a rich class that refused to serve in the military was as unthinkable as the idea of Pat Tillman doing so now.

I don't discount the sacrifice of the Tillman family. His death is both noble and tragic. And to the extent that Bush's adventure in Iraq diverted troops from Afghanistan, possibly preventable. His family deserves our respect, our honor, and our thanks. But, by any reasonable measure, they are better off, than the vast majority of the other 186 families who lost people in Afghanistan and the close to 700 who lost people in Iraq. Mr. Tillman's family had benefit of his previous years on the NFL and thus a good deal of money. Most of the others who lost a father in Afghanistan or Iraq won't be able to fall back on such wealth. They have already found themselves in a daily grind of grief with the very modest benefits accorded them by our government. They exist in relative anomynity and outside of the thoughts and prayers of all but close friends and family.

I am all for honoring Pat Tillman but what about Sgt. Ryan D. Foraker of Logan Ohio, or any of the other 186 people who preceeded Pat Tillman in death? While we are at it, what about a return to the concept of noblesse oblige? Our new motto seems to be "From those to whom little was given, much is expected". It is sad that our current era brings back a nostalgia for the robber barron era. We have made idols of the idle rich. Which is why Pat Tillman is so worthy of news. He was a man behind the times, and thus has the thanks of a grateful nation. But we shouldn't forget to thank the other 186 in our rush to thank Pat Tillman.

>Yet I, like most other people, couldn't name a single other person off the top of my head who perished there. Why is that?<

Duh, maybe because he was a former NFL player?

Glen Miller died in WW2. But my point was that virtually no one knows soldiers anymore. In most wars, we would have known them.

...this is exactly what we want to encourage rich and privileged to do.

If propping up Pat Tillman gets rich kids to realize, "Hey, I'm not helping anyone by sitting on my money!" I think we should keep hyping him and show what it is we expect from the privileged in this country.

I don't compare the attention Tillman has gotten to the other dead soldiers, I compare it to the other NFL football players. People won't be so quick to call our millionaire athletes heroes anymore, and that is a good thing.

Ted Williams, Joe Dimagio, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, and Elvis set a great example for their generation - they asked what they could do for their country ... None of those WW2 celebrities were better people than their fellow soldiers, but they made great stories and set great examples. Pat Tillman does the same thing and reminds our increasingly vain society that money isn't everything.

I count that as a good thing.

...pssst, hey, Elvis was drafted, and he went mighty begrudingly. He also got a pretty cushy MOS and assignment. Take a look at the films of his haircut on induction day. Its far from the standard chop. He definitely exploited his star status for all it was worth.

Also, you forgot about Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable on your WWII list, there. And don't forget that a lot of Hollywood types clamored for gigs doing promos and service for the war effort. Of course, those were the days of the big studios and things were a lot different then in that regard.

Plus, WWII was a war of a different stripe. You didn't see quite the same reaction to Korea or Vietnam et al. WWII was such a rallying point that even Woody Guthrie attempted to volunteer for duty, but was denied due to his age.

But even in VietNam, Johnson had two sons in law in country. WW2 was a different war, but our rich were also different rich. No rich person would have dreamed of advocating tax cuts (the top marginal rate was an eye popping 90%) during WW2. No company would have dreamed of moving to an offshore tax haven during WW2. Now, we all see what the rich are doing.

If he'd "exploited his star status for all it was worth" he would have had a musical gig for the Army -- the Navy and other branches offered all sorts of special assignments if he'd come to them -- but he went in as a regular GI. He was a scout with an armored division, slept in the snow night after night near the frontier, and made sergeant.

Sure, he wasn't overjoyed at his induction, but who would be even if they didn't have a multi-million-dollar thing going as the object of millions of young ladies' desire? He could easily have received special treatment, but he didn't request it, other than deferring his induction until after King Creole was in the can.

and it may make some unconfortable

one that may make you unconfortable

After 9.11 I went to the AF recruiter, they were willing to excuse most discualifiers... until they found out that my hubby was a USN Chief, and he was deployed... due to many reasons they could not have an officer and an enlisted man in the service.

So I asked out of curiousity, now many others showed up...

What I was told was shocking... most who showed up were no longer qualified to serve, due to age... hell even a B-17 WW II pilot showed up. They, in fact, got very few kids show up. Oh and those of us who showed up, were no fools, or full of natioanlistic, jingoistic pride. We had seen the old lie up close and personal, Dulce et Decorum est, pro patria mori.

Now compare this to December 8th, 1941.

The nation was still reeling from the shock of that sneak attack in that very distant Naval Base in the middle of the Pacific. Yet the Armed Services had to turn people away, as they did not have enough uniforms, or forms to process the sudden influx of volunteers.

This tells me something about this country which is not nice, Most who are war boosters, would rather prefer others do the fighting and the dying, while they applaud. (now reality is the country had been attacked and the response was shockingly slow)

Should we pay attention to Tillman? Only in one respect, he is one of the few men and women (relaively few given the enormity of what happened on Sept 11), to step into the breach... and in that sense he has to be honored with the other 730 troops that have made that ultimate sacrifice in Iraq, and over 100 in Afghanistan (which for the record was a necessary war, not a war of choice, unlike Iraq) Yes he is being used to a point, because most people have heard of him... yes even me, saw his only interview after 9.11, and I care for organized sports as most people care for hemorrhoids.

Now here is HOW you honor the war dead... YOU question those who have sent them into harms way, on the wings of a lie, little equipment and shody training. And yes, you may even use Sergeant Tillman, as well as the rest of the war dead.

And yes I do hope this makes you uncomfortable...

I agree 100% with all you said.

From King Kaufman:

"Pat Tillman's life and death tell us a compelling story, one that touches us. He hit a nerve in people not just because he put a face on the war effort, which he did, but also because his story had so many compelling elements, not the least of which was his refusal to do interviews, to participate in his own mythmaking. Giving up a glamorous, million-dollar career to join the Army during wartime is one thing, but shunning the spotlight? In 21st century America, that really made him stand out.

"But as unusual as it was, as unusual as he was, Tillman's story was just so damn easy to identify with. Who among us, upon hearing about him leaving the NFL and joining up, didn't put ourselves in his shoes and think, Would I have done that? It's all the more compelling that in the vast majority of cases, the answer must have been "No." It certainly was for me."

(how to put this?) a bit given to ill-considered action.

Neither a hero nor an idiot. Human, yes. To throw away a career that no one thought he'd have out of a reaction to 9/11 and the political response to it? Human, all too human.

But if that had been me, I would have not listened to rush limballs, and I would have not broken my mother's heart. I would have decided for a long life and played football.

All said, Rest in Peace.

or heroic. Probably atleast half if not 80-90 percent of the soldiers who died or the soldiers overall wouldn't have made the same decision that Tillman made. They would have taken the easier route, the great life etc, and if not almost all wouldn't have shunned media attention to the act.

Timing is a peculiar thing. Tillman's death in Afghanistan (a just war) came at a time when the war in Iraq (an unjust war) spun violenly out of control---so much so that the deaths came so fast and furiously that one could not stop to take a breath. The media, acting as propaganda arm of the administration sought to give us a tangible "hero" we could rally around as the hell that is the Iraq war exploded into chaos---even though Tillman's death occurred in a totally different theatre of operations. (Take a wild guess as to how many Americans think he was slain in Bagdad as opposed to Afghanistan)

The semi-hard left left blanched at the over-the-top lionizing of Tillman, seeing it as the rather obvious "feel-good-about-the-Iraq-war-even-though-this-guy-didn't-die-in-it" propaganda play that it was, but still acknowledging his basic sacrifice. The diamond-hard left has taken the point further, sometimes making the assumption based on stereotype about the nature of "roided-up-gung-ho-jock-types" being in it just for the kill. Some in the semi-hard left have taken great umbrage at Rall's cartoon and views, feeling that it damages progressives in general in the eyes of the middle. Fair enough. But while some of the outrage is based on genuine empathy for Tillman's sacrifice, a large part is also based on a craven fear of being attacked on it by freeper pundits in the press who want to make ANYTHING else but the burgeoning Abu Graraib abuse scandal an issue now. (As seen for example by "Lady Godiva" Sullivan's peculiar...well...I'll say it...goo-goo-eyed embrace of this story in lieu of the far worse things going on)
I think Rall went a bit over the top. I also think that his sentiment is something that a lot of people felt inside but knew was too toxic to put out there. That said, it's just a cartoon. It has no representation of an actual event...like sexual humilaition, posible forced sodomy, de-humanization and the revelation that some of those who are to protect us may have actually jeopardized the lives of countless thousands of Americans home and abroad.
At the very least, let's debate the issue. But not at the expense of cleaving rifts in the greater struggle and causing political self-immolation.
In the words of Nicholson's Joker from the first Batman movie:
"Let's broaden our minds!"

Here is the great article that everyone on DU should read.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

I always hated athletes when I was in school due to the crap I took from them. Finally we hear about one who seems like a honestly decent guy and he is dead. How utterly sad.

And reading articles like this, I hope, will encourage liberals not to jump to conclusions about a person. We see it so much in freeper-types. It's a shame we can't be, well...more liberal.

My first year of college I was assigned to a suite full of athletes. It was a very tough fit at first but eventually I learned that not all athletes were assholes like the ones who went to my high school. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt now.

and an asset to DU. I don't always agree, but you make me think.
Loss can make us so sad, but it can help us reflect too, and that's a good thing. Best wishes to you and your family.

I really appreciate that. It has been a rough couple of weeks to say the least.

read the freepers' reaction to the article.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1129403/posts

What a bunch of religiously insane hypocrites.

When liberals dare to say anything that would offend right-wingers (or 'moderates', as they're now known, ever since right-wingers went off the scale into fascist territory), apparently it's only *some* things that warrant dressing down about.

For example: not slamming Rall for daring to think Tillman might be an idiot was soundly proclaimed on this board to be 'helping the right' and 'making liberals look bad'.

Contrast that with the marked scarcity of any posts lambasting people for 'helping the right' or 'making liberals look bad' by... say... calling for abortion rights up until the 9th month of pregnancy - or saying that unborn babies are really nothing but 'parasites'.

Funny how it's only the anti-war liberals that make liberals 'look bad'. The kind that defend 'baby killers' and give the right all the ammo they could ever hope for on that topic are allowed free reign.

You were farily harsh with Mr. Tillan, is your John Kerry image meant to be ironic then?

If so, I did not mean to be.

And no, my Kerry image is not ironic. However, I support him only because he seems to have the best chance of ousting bush. His backing the bush 'roadmap' to (anything but) peace in the Middle East, his backing of bush's lies leading up to the war, etc. all make me very leery of him.

When their country faced war three prominent and wealthy young men enlisted in their nation’s military service. After being trained all three made requests of their commander.
Pat Tillman requested to be sent to Afghanistan to fight for his country.
John Kerry requested to be sent to Viet Nam to fight for his country.
George W. Bush requested to be sent to Alabama to campaign for his Party.

John Kerry has a LOT more in common with Pat Tillman than Bush...

I have been surprised and bothered to see that some people on this board think it's OK to bash soldiers like Pat Tillman, which is even more despicable when he's dead and can't defend himself.

I also find it bothersome that some of the same people who scream bloody murder when I or others use words like "bitch" (usually to describe people like Condoleeza Rice or Ann Coulter) demand that such speech be censored, while they cheer on the deaths of American soldiers and make excuses for Palestinian suicide bombers.
One poster even has a hammer and sickle next to a picture of Lenin as a signature photo.

Not that I'm for censoring such views, I generally think we should err on the side of allowing speech, rather than censoring it.

But, oh the irony.

but you won't see me trashing Tillman.

delete

from Osama himself... BTW: To those of you who support me and defend me on DU,

thanks,

Osama

thank you george w and pat t for:

first, airlifting me out of afghanistan to safety in pakistan:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020128fa_FACT


second, for then continuing to torment the poor people of afghanistan, thereby ensuring that a whole new generation of recruits will soon be running my way!!


and third, and this one is so obvious it barely requires mentioning, thanks for taking even more pressure off my al qaeda buddies by going after that evil secularist saddam.


geez, some days it feels like i've hit the trifecta.

While I still think his enlisting was illadvised at best, he seemed to have more of a Jack London mentality (Ie. Adventurism, Experiance for the sake of experiance) than Freeper Insanity.

It's a shame he lost his life on such a lousy cause.

Jan, I respect you dude but not with this....

But if it'll make you feel better I'll reframe the "Lousy Cause" to mean anything to do with Bush and the military under his command. Not just the disasterous Invasion, Occupation, Re-Invasion, of Afghanistan.

Better?