Let's face it, the Iraqi abuse is not Bush's fault and

the sooner we acknowledge this, the more likely it is that Bush will be defeated.

Let me qualify my last sentence: the Iraqi abuse is only Bush's fault in the sense that he got our troops over there in the first place.

Otherwise, the seeds were sown for this abuse well before Bush. He has only been in power for four years. The military establishment which allowed the abuse to happen and the people who abused the Iraqi prisoners have been percolating for a lot longer than that. They did not just hatch out of an egg yesterday...or four months ago. And please don't tell me that this is the Republican's fault...this is a problem that has been festering and festering through democratic and republican administrations. I guess my basic question is: how does a kid grow up in America capable of being so barbaric to another human being and incapable of following his or her conscience rather that someone's orders. How does that happen???

We would all like to blame Bush for this and there is great responsibility for any President upon whose watch this kind of thing happens...but this problem is much deeper that George W. Bush's presidency and, if we are a truly decent country, or if we desire to become one, we should look behind the politics and search the nation's soul, find out what it is that has made so many of our countrymen and women so angry, barbaric and out of control, and work to cure this sad, sad sickness.

While the torture is not his fault, the fact that they had civilian companies overseeing the interrogation is.

It may solve your problem, but it doesn't solve the problem, does it?

I think this is a new and unique problem that is indeed caused by Bush*. I never remember a national debate about whether we should be allowed to torture prisoners or lock up Americans without due process before Bush*. Granted War Crimes have been committed by virtually every single Army ever existed but this is different. This is premeditated and would not have occured had Gore taken his rightful place as President. Just my opinion.

the bush mafia has systematically demonized and dehumanized. they have jailed without due process. they allowed torture and murder in afghanistan and promoted it in guantanamo and have sent people to be tortured by other countries.
they have been floating this idea of using torture since right after 9/11.
NO it didnt happen under Clinton nor would it have been tolerated.

Bush and his minions are responsible.

is that Bush ISN'T taking responsibility for these horrible incidents. The buck does stop with the current administration and to say otherwise is giving Bush a free pass. He has gotten a free pass all his life and it's time he was made to accept the fact that he is a weak, ineffectual leader who can't even appologize when he is wrong because he doesn't believe he's EVER wrong about ANYTHING.

Yeah, yeah, he said the acts were "abhorrent" but he didn't actually appologize.

Every decision made regarding this war was wrong and since Shrub calls himself pResident and loves to take credit for things when they turn out right -- as they rarely do -- but never takes any responsibility when things go wrong.

Bush is the Commander in Chief...he is ultimately responsible FOR EVERYTHING THE MILITARY DOES. They are under his command PERIOD. Holding people accountable solves problems.....people like you and the reasoning people like you put forward is the cause of the problem and the rational used to enable the problems continuance.

What pray tell IS Bush responsible for?


RC

that he would MAKE that buck, too.
Someone... please explain this to him, please.

he hired the contractors to torture so military wouldnt be going against genevia convention. what part of that is not bush fault

he has ok'ed sending afghan prisoners to saudi and jordan. so what part is not bush fault

they knew about it since i think beginning of nov, but the number has been changed to january, and the report sitting there for them to read feb, adn they didnt stop it. who's fault is that

what about these soldiers who committed the abuse and how have we gotten to a military establishment that would go along with Bush. There is more wrong there than just George.

there is more to this. k, but i am not letting bush go. i am not going to say he doesnt have a clue, he isnt responsible he is handling this perfectly. who the f* cares that the soldiers have their own moral issue, of course they do. adn it was allowed by the military. they pump it, encourage it, that is how they get people to kill. send their ass to jail, fine with me. that is why you have authority to keep soldiers in line. the commanders are the ones that allowed the soldiers to be out of control, knowing this was going to happen. who is really sicker here. now

bushco feeds off the very worse that we are. i have been hearing htis shit since we walked into this war. it comes from the top

i want bush's butt

After he faked a Texas swagger into the White House, all kinds of loonies lying dormant on the bottom of the bell curve began to surface. Crime rose, repuke companies felt free to pollute and rob workers with abandon, and religion became the facade du jour for hiding behind.

Yes, small group dynamics were at play in those military units; however, they knew deep down that Bush* would have joined in their reindeer games... had he had the nerve to check that "Send me overseas" box.

and okay'd the hiring of private companies with questionable abilities and little, if any, supervision.

No, Bush* didn't do the acts themselves, but he set the stage for those abuses to happen.

He's run our country just like he ran his busineses: into the fucking ground. Ruined.

Remember how they said they'd run the country like a CEO runs a corporation? Well, they did.

Bush's incapable leadership and ineptitude lead directly to this.

He and the rest of this maladministration spent years building up hate against Arabs and Muslims through lies and innuendo. He demonized them and used words like "evil" to describe them and suck up to his fundie base. They constantly linked Iraq to 9/11 and urged revenge against the "terrorists". Of course, they were abetted by the somnolent American media who dutifully parrotted every lie and innuendo. How else do you explain that a solid majority of Americans believe that Iraq was linked to 9/11 and that WMD have been found? This is on * and the rest of his criminal cohorts. They goaded basically good people into committing atrocities. Since * obviously have no conscience or sense of responsibility, we can expect his criminal conspiracy to round up a few scapegoats to take the fall. And he will probably get away with it since the corporate media can be relied upon to quietly let it drop. And don't get me started on the use of mercenaries and "contractors" to mask the horrible lack of planning for post-Saddam Iraq.

I haven't heard that any of these soldiers were threatened with death. What has come together here to allow this to happen?

Do you think the Germans just happened to have millions of mass murderers sitting around waiting for an excuse to kill 11 million people?

Like the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing (PDB) warning Dubya of Al Queda's ominous threats, the topic of Fascism is more than just 'historical.'

Many people are dismissive of the F-word as mere rhetoric since they haven't really looked into it beyond reruns of old WWII footage on the History Channel, sometimes mockingly called 'the Hitler channel.' Unfortunately, the pictures today are shockingly realistic color.

Ignore it at your peril. It is not ignoring you. It will find you and no remote will switch it off. My governor is a former Austrian body-builder and Hitler admirer turned movie action-figure who was elected (?) to run the world's fifth largest economy. While I'd prefer that this was just a sci-fi tale written by Kurt Vonnegut, I've learned to expect the unexpected and undesired outcomes. I no longer assume that progressive justice or humane values inevitably bloom out of talk of freedom with red-white-and-blue bunting.

I have studied the history, psychology, linguistics, and tactics of fascism in depth over the last few years. I've learned that nationalist brain washing is the single most important tool of fascism. Group think is needed to prevent independent thought and action apart from the herd. Conformity leads to atrocity. Anyone can be dehumanized, not just Germans.

So I've put together some links to examine this destructive social phenomenon that I can't resist sharing with anyone who will listen since I judge it to be a rising tide that many won't notice until they are choking on it and wondering where the liberty they used to breathe went and what is that awful smell?

A famous British psychologist did an analysis of Bush*'s family history and personality. Little Georgie was abused, belittled, and overshadowed by his parents so he became an alcoholic, self-destructive, anti-intellectual, and cruel 'authoritarian personality.' His rebellion against his parents is killing many innocents.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html
(So George, How Do You Feel About Your Mom and Dad?

This 'authoritarian' personality is the precursor to Fascism Receptivity as defined by researchers in 1950 who tried to understand how large populations could embrace dictators like Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler. Many Americans match the profile, especially religious fundamentalists. Surprised? I didn't think so. But no comparisons with Hitler, OK? 'Chosen Few' doesn't mean 'Master Race'...does it?
http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm
(The F Scale Questionnaire to Determine Fascist Receptivity)

Another indictment of cruelty comes from this study on the components of conservatism studied in an academic model. It confirms differences we have noticed as liberals: fear of change, acceptance of inequality, black and white thinking, targeting of 'others.'
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml
(What Makes a Political Conservative)

Now, the 14 scary symptoms of Fascism as a social phenomenon to tie it all together even...worse.
http://empirewatch.org/pages/_archives/fascism/pages/14_symptoms.html
(The Fourteen Symptoms of Fascism)

And now, an analysis of a Bush* State of the Union speech that illustrates the linguistic science of abusive speech used to psychologically manipulate and deceive the listener, something White House speech writers have mastered to diminish the power of the listener. Yes, the counterrevolution has been televised.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/130534_focusecond13.html
(The Power of the Presidency Resides in Language as Well as Law)

This article explains the power of repetition as mind programming and the tactics of disinformation and segregation of 'conspiracy' ideas to hide knowledge of government manipulation through the use of television and other ubiquitous media. The 1938 radio broadcast of 'The War of the Worlds' confirmed the power of mass deception that has been exploited for decades.
New! Improved! Coming to a theater near you!
http://www.mackwhite.com/tv.html
(The TV Hive Mind)

Here is an article that explores the marketing power of fear used by Detroit to sell Americans SUVs, along with help from Arnold Schwarzenegger and the first Bush Gulf war. The same methods were used to link these previous sales to the gutting of the Bill of Rights and an unjustified pre-emptive war all at the same time. What a campaign!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,995252,00.html
Trading On Fear

What idiotic logic. I wonder if the person who started this thread will be singing the same song when someone is shoving a broom stick up HIS ass. And the sad fact is it's a populace who thinks like this who will end up getting broom sticks shoved up their asses.


RC

"Ignore it at your peril. It is not ignoring you...." :scared:

Have you ever heard the freeper radio announcer say "You are unpatriotic if you don't support Bush"

Or as others have demonstrated to you Bush and the mis-administration have successfully connected Saddam and 911 and WMDs in the minds of 85% of Americans without there being any such REAL EVIDENCE

Further more these young soldiers all wide eyed and freshly out of a job (being called up reservist)witnessing these contractors there earning 120k to 175k annual salary. Being eluded to "The way into the CIA". Shit I have a next door neighbor asking me to talk to her son because he is fresh back from Iraq and considering re-enlistment for Special Forces figuring it will eventually lead to a NSA or CIA position down the road.

The Bush Administration has set precedence and the precedence is Big Bucks for those willing to oppress the people in fight his illicit war

that "basically good" people committed these atrocities. A good book to read would be Hanna Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem."

Ignorance and "going along to get along" are not the hallmarks of basically good people.

Another good book is M Scott Peck's "People of the Lie" that inquires as to whether the source of evil can be traced to intellectual laziness and taking the easy way out.

If we assume these are "basically good" people, then what does that make of the MP who KNEW this was wrong and reported it? That he was better than "basically good?" No. He did demonstrate extraordinary courage and integrity..but he had no more basic goodness than anyone...just the courage of his convictions, a regard for the rule of law and the ability to recognize right from wrong even under pressure and in the so called fog of war.

Obviously NOT. Don't speak so authoritively about things you clearly know NOTHING about.

RC

soldiers to believe that the "enemy" is inhuman and evil and therefore deserving of treatment, including being killed, that would otherwise be considered immoral.

good post.

the Bushies gung-ho "might makes right" Bring It On attitude has contributed to the jingoistic nationalism mindset which abets the thugs who perpetrated these crimes. The Bushies ARE reponsible. The hate-talkers are responsible. There is a relationship here between the macho swagger and the debasement of the detainees. The Bushies created the climate. Their winger hateradio folk threw gasoline on the fire. And their inflamed thugs did the wet work. Don't give the Bushies a pass on this. It's related.

That's like saying Saddam wasn't responsible for the torture under his dictatorship.

This is not an "he's only been there four years" thing. He is supposed to be CIC. A CIC is supposed to know...he is the COMMANDER. And...AND...this is very important...Bush/Rummy made the decision to go in with too few troops who were not adequately trained to do a job they were not prepared for. Bush could have waited until the forces were at proper strength. He could have opted NOT to award special no-bid contracts for private mercenaries to do our dirty work (see last sentence...he could have waited for "real" troops). Finally, Bush has take no responsibility for ANYTHING, and not fired or reprimanded ANYONE.

He has failed as a leader utterly and completely. And that make everything and anything related to this mess his fault. He had the option of listening to the real intel, not the cherry picked gussied up Cheney version.

As for what made our countrymen so barbaric and angry, again....BUSH. He made all A-Rabs out to be inhuman "evil doers" and "terrists." Strip them of identity, they become objects of our derision. Remember, Bush lied to us and told us these people attacked us. Of course, they did not, but I'd be willing to bet those soldiers didn't know, or if they did, felt pretty pissed off at still being there a six-nine months after their tours ended.

Again, I don't care how you slice it...this is Bush's fault.

he lives in a media sanctioned state of blissful ignorance.

nothing makes my blood boil like liberals way out on the lunatic fringe who suggest that he should actually take the initiative and be aware of what's going on in this country.

geez, i've even heard suggestions that the attack on the pentagon could have been thwarted if he had stopped reading the goat story and sprung into action - reaally, what kind of nonsense is that? that building has five, count'em five, sides - how can you defend against something like that when the evildoers haven't specified what side was going to be attacked - heck, you a pick a side to defend and you have a 80% chance of being wrong. come'on give the guy a break already!!

is that the Bush* administration purged the upper ranks of the military. I don't know if those people would have stood up to this kind of nonsense or not.

Webster's defintion:
Main Entry: commander in chief
: one who holds the supreme command of an armed force

but would you clear him of blame for the Holocaust?

who cause the Democrats to lose elections and thus create the sense that the majority of the American people are Republicans and Conservatives and therefore lends to the evil that takes place in the world on behalf of this country. Lets face it, Republicans don't mind this much at all, you just ask them, and they see nothing wrong with it.......so yes, please vote your way in Nov.....just don't try to complain later on when even those on the left are in these rooms.

Obviously Bush didn't commit the acts of torture but he is ultimately responsible as the "commander in chief".

He put in place a culture of lawlessness mainly by the illegal invasion of Iraq, the privatizing of the US military, the shunning and sacking of professional soldiers arguing against a flawed post-Iraq war plan and his disrespect of the only institution that will be able to save his dumbass - the United Nations.

Could imagine the screams to high heaven we would be hearing from the republicans had Bill Clinton been president during such a debacle? The ONLY thing saving Bush from being impeached and thrown out of office is a republican controlled House. And the fact that THEY will not act is a pretty good indication of how morally bankrupt and hypocritical the republican party is.

his people did it. Are we saying Saddam is off the hook for any tortures that occured under his rule?

Back in 2002 Bush decided that the Geneva Convention was not important and the US did not have comply with the provisions as to POWs for the Afghan detainees. The Geneva Convention is clear that all battlefield detainees must be treated as POWs unless and until a competent tribunal determines that such detainee does not qualify for POW status.

Bush and Rummy decided to ignore the Geneva Convention because they did not want to be hampered by the pesky rules on interrogations of POWs.

The UN High Commissioner on Human Rights, the International Red Cross, the EU Parliament, OAS and numerous legal experts have all concluded that the US is violating the Geneva Convention. This is part of a pattern of lawlessness that lead to the abuse/torture of these detainees and Bush is responsible.

absolutely. The minute Guantanamo Bay became OK the slide down the slippery slope began and this is where we end up.

"we" are using the same tactics...if not worse. He shouldn't have gone in and EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS since we did is his fault.

Why were we doing interrogations of Iraqi prisoners at all? The answer, I believe, is that Bushco was still seeking evidence of WMD to justify this terrible war, and they pressured those below them to "make some Iraqis talk." This policy generated a culture in which torture became acceptable. It became a "Get Results--we don't care how" culture. By creating these pressures and setting this tone, I believe the White House was largely responsible for what happened, responsible in much more than an "on their watch" sense.

As to the question of how "nice" American youth became war criminals, I suggest you have a look at Philip Zimbardo's prisoner/guard studies, done many years ago at Stanford. His surprising conclusion was that the majority of "normal" college kids could be easily and quickly induced to do humiliating and degrading things to the people put in their charge.

we won't have solved this terrible problem and (flame me if you want) if some soldiers run amok under John Kerry, we'll drop the CIC crap and look for something or someone else to blame.

If prisoners aren't given due process of law under another President, I will hold him responsible, too.

If family members and human rights organizations had been able to regularly visit prisoners, and if they had a process for challenging their detentions, things wouldn't have sunk this low.

Trust me, I will hold Kerry to a high standard. He made a mistake voting in the first place for what Bob Woodward describes in "Plan of Attack" as the House and Senate handing Bush a "blank check" to invade Iraq.

I'm reminded of what Jimmy Carter said when asked about what he felt was the biggest problem with the current (at the time) Reagan Administration.

He said (paraphrasing), "They've allowed us to feel comfortable with our prejudices again."

So I agree with you, that that portion of the American populace that harbors hate and prejudice and torture-filled revenge of other human beings is not Bush's fault.

The fact that he and his ilk have cynically prodded, poked, and inflamed the dark side of the American psyche IS his fault.

As is this war, and all the maggot infested fruit that drops from it.

My two cents.

:hi:

Prejudice in America is nothing new...and then there are those who use it as a weapon to accomplish their deeds....by making it comfortable and acceptable to indulge in hate


As the old saying goes..you can convince more people with their prejudices than you can convince with reason...

My 75 year old mom has a Darwin fish on the back of her car. Makes me so damned proud, LOL!!!

:bounce::hi::bounce:

:hi:
or the republican party for that matter. they tailor their message to appeal to the worst in their constiuents...because:
they know the worst already exists in them.

call it white supremacy, call it ugly americanism...call it zenophobia...call it whatever you like. and Raven is correct: whatever you want to call it...this isn't bush's fault.

bush, inc knows fully well how to manipulate it though. and if you don't think so...just listen to that "some of us know brown people can govern themselves" comment.
it's racist, cynical, manipulative...and most importantly: A LIE. bush, inc no more believes that LIE than do the people who comments like that are designed to appeal to.
and that sure as hell is his fault.

Missin you much here. You comin to the Tahoe 'Paint Party'?

Can't wait ta give ya a big WillyT Bearhug, LOL!!!


:bounce::loveya::bounce:

:loveya: i miss y'all too!!!!

:hi: thanks for the hug...right back at ya! :pals:

These are the people who did everything they could to legally shield all their war actions from culpability. War crimes, prisoners held without rights, even Americans, foreign control of prisoners to get around human rights violations. That doesn't mean that they are soley responsible, but they are responsible in more than just the 'I'm in charge so technically I'm responsible.' way. They set up the environment for all of this to happen against alot of ongoing resistance to such an environment.

Their message has been coming from the top down and it is that while we unilaterally make up rules that everyone else must abide by, there are no rules that apply to us.

Maybe it would help if you would realize that the soldiers who did this are not the ones who did it.

Hell, I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is as disturbed by this as he says he is. But he is, as president (and I use that term loosely) and CIC, responsible for the actions of his military. That responsibility comes with the territory of being the leader of the free world - and Bush has shown time and again he does nothing but point fingers and shift the blame. Like with the 9/11 failures and the Plame incident to just name a couple.

This is not to say that he is the only one who should be held accountable over this - he's not. But for being such a "manly man" and a "tough guy" he sure does have a problem with owning up to his own responsibilities as president.

COMMAND RESPONSIBILITY, this happened under his watch

These are the reasons why this happened... and it shows you HAVE
no CLUE about the military, I'd even hazard to say, YOU HAVE NEVER SERVED.

1.- After 9.11 when Bush said, the Geneva Convention will not apply to the Prisoners on the war on Terror... This is a clear signnal for troops, and OFFICERS IN CHARGE.

2.- The lower ranks DO Cycle as retention from first to second term is not that bloody high... most folks get OUT before the 10 year mark, given first contracts are usually eitgher five or six years, THINK.

3.- What happened to the Buck stops here?

4.- Full and COMPLETE breakdown of Command Structure, I'd hazard all the way to JCS level and Secretary of Defense.

Sorry pal, WILL NOT WASH...

Oh and I was obeying orders stopped being an excuse in 1945, WE WROTE these laws AFTER Aushwitz, or did YOU MISS THAT MEMO?

YES I am POed... ok... I hate to hear this apologist crap... this is what the Nazis did...

Oh and yes will say it now, evil only succeeds when people of good conscience refuse to speak up. It did in Germany in the 1930s and 40s, it did in Rwanda, it did in Argentina and Chile, and now it is HAPPENING HERE.

Getting us exempt from War Crimes by coercing other countries was the start.

He gets no free pass from me. I think he totally set up the conditions for this.


:grr:

Bush gave us the idea of "enemy combatants" who don't have the protection of the Geneva Convention.

Bush knew or should have know that Iraquis aren't being given due process of law a long time ago.

Bush knew or should have known that it was routine until recently to put hoods on Iraquis who are arrested.

Did he tour any prisons in Iraq? Talk to any prisoners? No, he just posed with a plastic turkey.

See:

Rumsfeld and Operation Manhunter (Rummy ordered the torture?)...

The Bush Admin has known about the photographs and the abuse since November of last year. He is a fraud who never admits to his (or his administration's) wrongdoing until he is forced to.

Sheesh. If we could just harness some of the killer dog instinct of the Republicans for once, we might get back at least ONE part of government. If the situation were reversed, the GOP would be on Clinton or Gore like a starving dog on hamburger.. never letting go, never giving an inch. We're a sad bunch of puppies... oooh.. musn't be mean, musn't attack, must use our heads. Ridiculous. The GOP is in control of everything because they know how to kick ass and take names and shout and shout until you have to pay attention. Bush is responsible he's the fucking Comander in Chief. The head honcho. End of story.

disbelief like many of us - they just are stunned daily at all the garbage the bushco gang pulls every hour

who can keep up??

The big issue at the moment is that we have a rogue government, who the created a rogue military, for whom oppression and torture are just part of the arsenal that they have at hand. Personally, I don't see a big difference between bombarding civilians with cluster bombs and smart bombs and torturing prisoners. However, all of this is happening right now because of Bu$h's Blunder and he is totally responsible.

The other, more troubling and more difficult issue is what has happened to our society? Yes, this has been festering for years. The 20th Century was nothing to write home about when it comes to human kindness. However, we have an element in our society that has encouraged and fosters hate and division. We see it starting in Kindergarten and this message delivered by the likes of Rush Limpballs is broadcast 24/7 on Clear Channel stations.

However, the first and more pressing problem at the moment is removing this cabal from power. Then if we survive the experience, we need to come together as a society and decide for once and for all to start changing how we treat other human beings.

There could be a thread about that (as long as it didn't start out saying that Bush* is not at fault, here).

honor our parents

so we did that.

then , children began to accuse their parents in the ultimate arrogant spoiled child syndrome of all sorts of mental abuse--and all sorts of physical abuse, even though it may not have been that at all, but it became the rage to do so anyhow.

Suddenly, honoring your parents became very very passe.

It became the mode to treat one's parents as if they were almost enemies, and insist they communicate on a "social level" with their children, because they after all, were bereft of giving the drug ridden children, more and use all sorts of manipulations against their own children. Like, revealing their fears and being actually, human beings with all their foibles.

No , the children became spoiled brats. As one gets older, they will find themselves abandoned by their spoiled brats. Yet, it does not seem to be a two way street. The mother, or the father, cannot find it in their hearts, to insist that their children only speak to them on a "social level". It only works that way for the spoiled children and not for the mother or the father.

None of us had perfect parents. If we wanted to, we could have hated them for the things that they did that were, after all, only human mistakes. No one had a choice of parents.

No, we saw children accusing their parents of being ogres--not what they, their children deserved at all. There seemed to be a disconnect that was not their before, and mothers wondered what they had done that was wrong.

Somehow, the basic values of family and coherent family bonds, became a superficial thing and the children became the most important thing in their entire, self centered lives and everything that went wrong with their lives, was the fault of their parents-

and they go on without the stability that this would afford them even though they are by now, forty years old--accepting that parents are not automatically endowed with professional parenthood skills although having the best of intentions as they were capable of

We have grown a spoiled generations--where there is no anchor--where parent are blamed for everything the children do--even though the children have reached the age of forty.

And the parent--the parent cannot see thru to disengage with the spoiled brats. It is not within the parent's melieu to do so. It is expected that parents do NOT do things like that.


We are expected to stand by our children, no matter how much they abuse us and accuse us as the source of all their problems. No matter how much they try to tell us we must only communicate on a "social level" and how painful that is to us, we still love them, because we bore them from our own body.

"Somehow, the basic values of family and coherent family bonds, became a superficial thing and the children became the most important thing in their entire, self centered lives and everything that went wrong with their lives, was the fault of their parents"

I hear lots of pain on your part. I'm not sure if you're making an analogy of citizen/government relationships or describing your own family pain.

I think this is interesting because the study of psychology leads us to conclude that because our experience with our parents is so formative of our perspective on all of life, we transfer that perpective to our idea of what good government should be.

We have learned in the last 40 years that parents, like governments, have a responsibility to not abuse or terrorize their children. This is like finally coming out of the era of the Divine Right of Kings when governments/parents could do anything they wanted to to their subjects/children with impunity.

There is more to a healthy relationship than 'honor thy parents' and 'might makes right.' There are moral obligations on the part of the government and parents, too. This is the morality of being the stronger party who dominates another.

Linguist George Lakoff has written extensively on this topic and advised Howard Dean and John Kerry. In a nutshell:
Republicans sell the idea of the 'Strong Father'-dictator, unforgiving
Democrats sell the idea of the 'Nurturing Mother'-nanny,forgiving

Read this article about Lakoff and his advice to Democrats on using language to appeal to the primal emotions we get from our families.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=12&ItemID=4294

I read that Lakoff article when it was posted here a while ago and will review it. Bush's people certainly understand how to manipulate the language in order to manipulate vast masses of people. I think they , or their speech writers, know very well what they are doing. I don't know how they can stand it and retain their sanity.

I understand the mother-father analogy .

It is a good theory-we all, no doubt, are in some way are projecting

I am not so sure it can be applied in every era we may study. One can take a look at a time in history when it was perfectly acceptable to raise children in a way that we, today, would call "abusive" and government was not negatively affected . But that is neither here nor there. We also see human beings who were raised in a way that today we would call abusive, who turned out to be extraordinary human beings who have done wonderful things in their lives--and contributed much to society.

I was trying to connect the idea of a strong family unit with a healthy, government, but I now see, that is not exactly right -- as it brings to mind some posters I have seen from the Hitler era that say the same!!

Is he taking credit for "victory?" For capturing saddam? Closing his torture rooms?

Just as there are thugs and bullies in our society; people who kick dogs, abuse their spouses, beat their kids, rape women, beat up gays, rob 7-11's and shot or beat the clerks, they are in our military as well. The difference is our military is supposed to be extraordinarily disciplined. But you have the combination of these people being reservist (no slam against reservists, they just weren't trained for these type of situations), the stress and boredom of their assignment, being ordered by higher ranking regular army intelligence officers to do this stuff, a general sense of chaos and lack of oversight, this was bound to happen. Combine this with the rhetoric coming from the administration about these "evil doers", painting all Arabic/Muslim people with the same brush, they created a climate for this type of abuse. There is absolutely no excuse for the actions of these people. I am embarrassed as an American. But this is indicative of the poor planning, poor execution and poor accountability of the Bush Administration for the Iraqi occupation.

not ordinarily do, must dehumanize the enemy. in this war the dehumanizing was started by george bush when he labels all who oppose his plans "evil terrorists'. the army has done this for years, using tactics such as name calling(gook,towelhead,sand nigger,camel jockey...etc.) and whatever psychological ways to brainwash that exist. this dehumanizing is entirely necessary so the soldiers don't think before they shoot, so if told to kill these soldiers will do it because the 'thing' they are shooting is not a human being. this is a part of war seldom discussed in the daily news,but incidents like this are a natural outgrowth of this indoctrination. war is a motherfucker and, of course, to be avoided whenever possible. in my life i've known of headcases from wwII, korea,and nam. none of thse acquaintences had a problem before they went to war. the american people need to wake up, going to war does things to soldiers-war is hell

LOL..."the seeds were sown for this abuse well before Bush"....another case of Clenis-envy....right here on DU !!!!
Gawd...it's gross....contagious too....




DUers send back a resounding "YES, bush* is responsible" !!!!



:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


DUers are waking up to this 'little' whispering reTHUGlican campaign...

have any of you EVER seen hoods and oven mitts being used on people before in such numbers? and I'm talking since right after 911 when Afghanistan started..

all of a sudden we're seeing all these photos of guys in hoods..

know what?

THEY WERE BEING TORTURED AT THAT MOMENT.

It's called Sensory Deprivation and it plays hell with the mind -- this has been right out in the open, the CIA used to hide when they controlled things, NOW they just come out and brag about how they pushed a button and big tall guy (Honest, we thought it was Osama, he was freaking 7 feet tall!) blows up out in the middle of the desert..

WE HAVE BEEN TORTURING THEM ALL ALONG.

Breaking down doors, searching and tying up children's hands, all torture.

I for one and ASHAMED to be put in the same basket with Bush -- maybe it's time for us to call ourselves something new, like REAL AMERICANS, as opposed to the fake ones running it all right now..

maybe NON - CORPORATE AMericans.

the other thing my wife brought up this morning is that the picture of the person on the box with the pointy hood looks a LOT like a black (even more evil) version of the KKK..

I thought something about that image bothered me a lot but I couldn't put my finger on it..

it smells like KKK all over again.. brown people getting it once MORE by the rich white guys.

this is scary shit and I want no part of it.

RESIGN - IMPEACH - INVESTIGATE - IMPRISON.

Those images cannot be ignored and they go deep into this country's psyche...long before Bush. Someone here said that Bush's people knew very well how to tap it and tap it they did...but it was there and that what scares me. We can get rid of the boy idiot but that won't completely solve this problem.

danger...warning....watch out...it spreads all over fast....


lalala....lalala....lala.....


singing the song.....lala..lala.....la....

We have always had a lunatic fringe. We have always had prejudiced people. We have always whipped up people to demonize the "enemy."

But Bush has taken it to a new level, along with his minions and the LIBRAL MEDIA fanning the flames of hatred and demonization that are part of the lies the administration puts out as propaganda.

YES, MR. "AXIS OF EVIL" IS RESPONSIBLE.

thread:


here's some more actual quotes from the very first post that started this thread....and there's a whole choir that goes with it...today's talking point to re-select bush*....


...the Iraqi abuse is not Bush's fault


the seeds were sown for this abuse well before Bush.

And please don't tell me that this is the Republican's fault...


.....this problem is much deeper that George W. Bush's presidency

wife and I think alike....OMG you have a "handful" there. :D But, I said to my husband, that picture looks like a clan member in black wired to the wall on that box. And it's so sick and disgusting and beyond belief.

But the scariest thing is that "Imagery" is ALL with this Bush. It's got to be Carl Rove and the PNAC. Even his idiot, rambling incoherant father wasn't using THIS kind of imagery. "Fly boys with socks in crotch" and the rest of it. This Bush is being "totally controlled" and marketed. And yes...Klan...disgusting...

in order to recruit people, then it's apparent that the message from the top down is that brutalizing other people is not only acceptable, it's expected.

the world into the scam of a war for WMD's, that is spiraling out of control everyday....I'll think about not blaming HIM!!

The Bu$h family never apologizes - never. Oh, the arrogance and hubris is breathtaking .. indeed, dumbfounding.

I mean he did not actually drop the zyclon b pellets into the showers now did he?


Sometimes I think democrat is short for weak ass pansy retard looking for excuses to be walked all over. That is what this thread is. Another lame ass attempt to seem like the "nice guy". No of course we can NEVER call a spade a spade. It would be funny if we were not shirking our responsibility to control the nut jobs using our tax dollars to ruin the world.

both for having put troops there in the first place and for having fostered a wider culture of intolerance in American society, especially since 9/11.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, though. The underlying problems run as deep as the society itself.

But that won't stop the sock-puppets that squeak loudly that it is bush to blame and all the while generating sympathy among the masses.

If only youth was not wasted on the young...

Poor widdle innocent Georgie, the naive and helpless victim, surrounded by vengeful, malevolent enemies on the left and greedy, self-aggrandizing insubordinates on the right!

This has been the story of his life--buck passing, avoiding accountability, and being bailed out. If he screws up, it's because of the bad advice and incompetence from the people UNDER him. ENOUGH!!!

:headbang:
rocknation

That Bush is NOT at fault ...

He is the only legal cause (AFTER the IWR Vote) of the war in Iraq ... He represents the Party that bellowed for war, the Party that planned it, and the Party that executed it ...

HE led that Party ....

THIS Snake is rotten from the head down ....

We MUST place the blame on those members who committed the acts, AND the leaders that promoted the climate that allowed for those acts to occur ...

It is ALL Bush's fault ....

more important is the absence of a Heartfelt sincere Apology. The Iraqi People at least deserves this part from no less than the high chief himself. That he cannot, refuses, just illustrates the extreme shallowness of the man, he has no Class and is certainly not a Statesman, never was nor will be. More like a Troglodyte gone wild.

As "commander-in-chief" he took credit for "Mission Accomplished" a year ago, and would certainly take credit should there be some sort of vague victory in pulling out of Iraq.

By the same token, as "commander-in-chief" he is responsible for the tone he has set for the military. He has created an evironment where hate and disrespect thrive. He has fostered the idea that no matter what we do - since it's all in the name of GOD - we are right. For this, I blame him completely.

Like if it happened while Clinton was president, these slimy right-wing assholes wouldn't be shouting at the top of their lungs? -- "Clinton's the commander-in-Chief, he should take the blame and responsibility for it. It's a reflection on Clinton the man and his leadership and his policies...Clinton should of known and not put those people in control. It's Clintons fault!"

And the media would of had a field day with it for month's!

prove your point?

That's why a "true" radical progressive liberal like myself is screaming at the top of my lungs, (everywhere)!

Can you hear me Willie?

Haven't seen an actual argument yet.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're not saying anything.

None of this--the deaths, murders, torture, destruction of national treaures--would have happened if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq. Period. It IS his fault.

And his rhetoric about "evildoers" and his holy wars only throw fuel on the fire

OK. That works for me. It's definitely *'s fault.

Do you recommend we all go spit on returning soldiers? I thought you were against that.

I won't. There's plenty of blame to go around, but Bush deserves a lot of it.

he got the ball rolling on the three basic underpinnings of fascism in Murka:

1. greed is good and crime does pay

2. might makes right

3. the ends justify the means

Blame Reagan! The bushgang are just his bastard offspring.

but Bush is more at fault than you give him credit for. It is clear from what is coming out now that part of the problem is the involvment of private interrogators. Those are on Bush.

The other place where I tend to disagree with you is on the idea that this is somehow a military problem. Sadly people can be cruel without the military helping them be that way. I would guess that whoever the ring leader was, had shown signs of cruelty in the past. It is quite possible that the rest got caught up in the moment and didn't have the courage to say no, but someone in that room was familiar with being cruel to people before. Anyone who has watched kids bully each other knows that this kind of thing is in some people. What generally keeps it in check is a combination of supervision and fear of being caught. Here it seems that neither factor was present. The prisoners were thought of as other. Once that line is crossed it is easier to cross the other lines too.

The * "with us or with the terrorists" aggressive, militant approach is a big contributor to the torture. What's been called the "Manhunter" approach to going after the terrorists (ends justifies the means) employed under *'s watch is a big cause. Insufficient number of troops is another cause -- also at *'s doorstep.

Consider responsibility lies at *'s doorstep. He won't/cannot be help legally culpable, though.

for the last couple decades and prison guards act with impunity as do rogue police officers as in the Abner Louima case.

Our society turns a blind eye to cruel and unusual punishment - the verdict in the Rodney King case proved as much...so did the fact that Illinois found their administration of capital murder cases to be so faulty that a moritorium was placed on the death penalty and sentences commuted.

I didn't notice Bill Clinton doing a mea culpa when Dyncorp was caught doing the same thing in Kosovo (although he may have and I missed it)

Be that as it may, THIS is occurring under Bush's watch and I would NOT EXCUSE his criminal negligence in the matter. "They did it too" isn't a legal defense.

He selected the people who promoted this illegal war and fostered an attitude of "us vs. them". He has responsibility for the crimes commited under his command and should be tried under international law.

world had acknowledged that fact Hitler would have been defeated before the extermination of millions.

What idiocy!

RC

of people's energy to argue over the madness of the insane-reTHUGlican daily talking point....

perhaps the 'daily reTHUGlican talking point' could be quickly identified and diffused in the morning, thereby, saving the entire day....it's always a 'little' subtle mememememe mememe...lalala..lala...and DU gets sucked into it easily, especially if they are not familiar with the technique...

and they adapt very quickly. If you don't - you're out of the power structure. Anyone who is a success learns this very quickly.

I lay odds that anybody at the top of the ladder - military-wise knew exactly WHAT Rumsfeld and the rest of the power structure in the Pentagon would put up with.

the abuse is part of an endemic problem of racism. But I disagree tactically - blaming Bush for it is almost certainly the best electoral strategy available. There are plenty of people out there who don't know or don't want to believe that Americans and the US are capable of these things. Painting Bush as the one who brought this about and hence brought America into disrepute is a sound short-term electoral strategy IMO.

hold anyone accountable...

So far, we have hollow words from a callow smirking chimp.

It IS Bush's fault. Despite his unwillingness to take responsibility for anything at all, he is the Commander in Chief, he is ultimately responsible. Clearly he failed to impress on Rumsfeld and the commanders of his invasion that treating civilians well was vital to the success of the "liberation". If he had done so forcefully enough the message would have worked its way down the chain of command and this would have been prevented. Its Bush's fault.

Instead Bush lied to the American people when he spoke of a connection between Iraq and terrorism. because of Bush's lies maybe some of these troops thought they were dealing with "terrorists" instead of ordinary people who have no rights (despite being "liberated"). Since the rule of law apparently doesn't apply to anything Bush does and Iraqis have no rights (these people were never charged with anything) and are potential "terrorists" these sadist prison guards could do whatever they wanted to the prisoners. So it is Bush's fault.

these soldiers were all saying, 'let's kick some iraqi ass and get revenge for 9-11'. it's easy to dehumanize someone who you think did that to us. we were all fooled, even our soldiers.
that doesn't forgive their behavior at that prison though

"the sooner we acknowledge this, the more likely it is that Bush will be defeated"

Says who? Oh! You. I feel it is as likely if not more likely that if Bush is held responsible for the actions of troops under his command that he will be defeated. He is a war president after all, it is his war. Apologising for him won't help.

"Let me qualify my last sentence: the Iraqi abuse is only Bush's fault in the sense that he got our troops over there in the first place."

Er, no. He's responsible for far more than that. Bush's blatant disregard for international law to some degree set the conditions for exactly this kind of abuse to occur. Extra judicial killings in Afghanistan and the acceptance of conditions at Guantanamo bay to name just a couple of examples. Whilst I agree that the military's behaviour has been questionable before, in this situation is is Bush's fault that they are there. Furthermore by lowering the acceptable behaviour bar he indicated that others could do the same.

This is not about politics it's much simpler. It is about right and wrong. Bush was wrong. He's never admitted it, so why should those people who were buggering prisoners?

Yes, there is systemic problem within our society that promotes a mind set it which the seed of cruelty and inhumanity can flourish. Our society has become more callous, more individualistic, more libertarian if you will. The sense of community, of common purpose and sacrifice for the betterment of society is rapidly disappearing. Our current generation of soldiers are Reagan babies, raised in a time period when it was fashionable to be selfish, "I've got mine, you can go to hell", "Greed is good". The advent of RW talk radio, neocon think tanks, the serious rightward drift of the both parties and the media all contributed to this. We have raised a generation of self absorbed, selfish libertarians in all of the worst senses of that word And combining with this attitude is the hypernationalism of the era. USA USA is the new mantra, and we can do no wrong. So is it any wonder that in the face of stress and obstruction, these people react with crass callousness? It is a fertile garden only waiting for the seed to be planted, in order for evil to flourish.

And Bush provided that seed. Setting the tone with his little man's swagger, his binary, good vs evil thinking, and tough guy talk, Bush's public appearances can only spur the rise of evil within the military and society at large. Combined with his actions in regards to Gitmo, Camp X-Ray, the Patriot Act, and his utter disregard of coalitions in order to go it alone sends the subconcious message loud and clear, "Its OK to be cruel and evil, for it is for the better good, and we are on a crusade here folks! Besides, they're only little brown people, not 'Muricans" The seed was planted, the ground had been prepared with care for the past twenty five years, and now we see the first evil fruits of what has been sown. And friends, it will only get worse.

Many years ago, in the early ninties, I attended a local speech given by an imminent German professor(and I'm sorry, her name has slipped my mind). Her main premise for the speech was that American society is rapidly becoming much like the pre-war Nazi society. Willingly blind to what is going on around us, hyperindividualistic, hypernationalist, tolerant of the evil growing amongst us, in our government and society, with the breakdown of a national sense of community and empathy for others. I remarked at the time at the accuracy of her insights, saying that all was needed was a leader to take advantage of these conditions in order to establish a facist dictatorship. Well, that applies more than ever today, especially with Bushco set to take over the reins of government.

What will it take to get rid of this madness? Time, time and a proper education of what it means to be a citizen in this country. We need to rebuild our shattered sense of community in this nation, and remake our society so that once again it is a caring and just society as it has been in the past. This will be a long painful process, but our only other alternative is to go the way of Nazi Germany, through hell and beyond. Perhaps this is what we're destined for, given the seeming impossiblity of awakening the sheeple public. But we should try anyway, not just to spare the world from more of our madness, but to also save our collective soul.

Bush, Cheney, Rummy, the entire administration has set a ruthless and cruel precedent regarding the treatment of prisoners right from the beginning. Captives at Guantanamo were denied their rights under the Geneva Conventions. Ashcroft is even denying the constitutional rights of Americans it considers "enemy combatants". By trying to make humanitarian distinctions between Al Qaeda prisoners and insurgent prisoners they have created a situation were all captives are fair game for mistreatment. Do prison guards make any such distinction? This is the same "Please don't kill me" cold-bloodedness Bush has shown since he was the death-penalty champion of Texas.