Sometimes I wonder if we're any better than the right-wingers...

...who bring up the most bizarre conclusions and interpretations of issues that don't meet with thier immediate black/white view of the world.

Recently, while expressing what I thought were somewhat nuanced ideas on DU, I was surprised at the response of ---- "You're just making excuses, " "you're generalizing", "you're this, you're that".

Latest case in point, some statements I made critical of some folks who seemed to be casting the abusive actions in Iraq by Americans as something done by some species of human beings that are totally seperate and divorced from "America" or what America is. Any attempt to explain or explore this notion - which is not something I just made up on my own, exactly, was met with the same attitudes I've come to expect from the freepers -- "You're making excuses!"

This is by way of saying, that if someone says something that strikes you as "odd" or "off", take the time and interest to see what's behind it, be intrigued -- especially in a place like this which should espouse critical thinking. There may be more that meets the eye.

we are all just humans, lol.

i hear you. on the i cant believe americans would behave like this. i beg your pardon. look within our borders all that we have become. this is exactly the american that we are.

we are a selfish, self righteous, arrogant person.

Well, I suppose. This is all by means of saying that I'm not going to stop posting what I think. If someone is "shocked" or "upset" about it, they can ask questions.

and dont keep your mouth shut. you betcha. i am one that truly embraces all another has to say, in agreement of or not. i dont have to agree with all, not the point in life and i certainly want you to express. cause if i deny your right to express, i give the ok for the universe to tell me to shut up

this is a celf sacrifice for the whole

and this goes further, ex gun issue. trying to take someone right to guns cause of your fear, leaves open someone taking away right for abortion cause of theirs.

if we have the individual freedoms and autonomy, then it has to be allowed in all things. start restricting me here, then i will restrict you there.

...I don't think anyone is stopped from "expressing themselves", and I'm not saying I'm being restricted.

sigh.

sigh.

sigh.

i hear often with politicians, they all lie, they all.......

what i do find is the easiness the republican will lie in such story, like i never see a democrat do. truly i think this one is uniquely republican, i am not talking the regular lieing stuff, i am talking taking torture and spinning it to frat play. that is truly repug and dont see it on repug side

the total misleading and misrepresenting of an opponent. i have not seen that on the democrat side

also the repugs, focus on their win at all cost, i see with dems trying to see all sides, in most things. though they have their agendas, gun, controller of alls health ect......

And the right-wing attacks on it, are undermining our democracy. The slogans and dichotic thinking create an environment where critical thought cannot flourish.

Liberalism came out of the Age of Reason, and the Enlightenment when more faith was put into mans ability to find new solutions by using tools of REASON. Using Reason is a lot slower, messier, and ambiguous than falling into a non-thinking way of approaching the world.

What can we do to encourage critical thinking in DU??

got a little bit of shiver there. you are right on

Using Reason is a lot slower, messier, and ambiguous

yup yup yup............and many are fearful of that mess. i tend to embrace mess. learned to do it in pregnancy,. lots of mess in that and had no control in keeping order. and then after with a new born and lack of sleep for months.

now a days, mess is not fearful, and the world hasnt fallen apart and i live in wonderful peace and nakedness in all that mess, lol lol lol. yup

hey. the same goes with raising a child. some chose physical punishment to create the fear and instant behaving. but what that creates is a behind the back misbehave

what i have found in teaching the child to think for self, think repercussion and effect of others around and the decision in doing right and following the rules. takes a lot longer. much messier. but bottom line, it is good stuff for foundation and ability to do life later

...everywhere. It worries me. At least one person understand what I'm trying to say here!! It's not about people "disagreeing" with me, or not being able to "express myself", it's about what happens afterward that's my concern.

...a generalization?

....does that answer your question?

what you wonder about. You wonder some times if we (being inclusive with no qualifier) are any better than freepers. That is a generalization.

And this is not a complicated issue. Sometimes some people act better, and sometimes some people don't. What's next?

yeah. exactly. thanks for your thoughtful responses. (not)

...don't read or respond to any of my posts, because you strike me as being an ass.

Look, I fail to see what is so upsetting. It is an unfair generalization to wonder if "we" meaning all of us are as bad as the right wingers.

I think, if you're willing to consider this for just a moment, that its more likely that "we" are all human beings - which means that some of "us" are probably going to act no better and think no more complicatedly than some people we've come to identify with closed minded or even meanspirited thinking on the other side of the issue. Certainly identifying yourself as "left" doesn't immediately exempt a person from that possibility.

I also think that even good people have bad days. I know I do. And, I also know that there are people even on the "right" who are actually thoughtful decent people. What bothers me is polarized thinking, whereing we assume that everything is black and white or us vs. them and "they" are all one way and we are all one way, and so on. I just don't think that is true.

There are times when I've acted no better than "the right wingers" to use your analogy. I bet every honest person will have to confess to that. And there are some people who seem to never demonstrate greater tolerance, more openness or more insightful thinking, that's certainly true as well.

But in the midst of all that are some really good people who say very inspiring or insightful things more often than they don't. And they make things worthwhile. I don't believe that "we" are all no better than other closde minded mean people we could thing of. But there will always be some in any context.

Now, I really didn't feel like I needed to say that much about this, but now I have - and I'm really curious to know which part of it excatly strikes you as so horrible or offensive...

?

Certainly DU has a lot of different points of view. I do remember reading some interesting threads that explored the example you mentioned in a more analytical way. Sometimes you won't get thoughtful responses to your posts, but search around a little and you probably can find good discussions. keep the faith :thumbsup:

The point is that there is sometimes, and not just here, and not mostly here, but SOMETIMES when discussion and exploration can't even occur because people are somehow made a little uncomfortable by something you say. Rather than asking questions about what is behind the statement, and trying to understand, they conclude that they already "know what you're saying", and negate any room for exchange by painting your thoughts as more simplistic than what the actually are.

I don't mind if people disagree -- I don't think they even get to the point where they are open to understanding what I'm trying to say or what lays behind the statements I'm making. These are the kinds of situations I'm addressing.

And no, I'm not perfect and I have probably done similar things. Here is what I'm asking -- how do we or can we promote critical thought in these situations?

I find that pressing a poster often leads to better discussions, but how much time can you spend doing that. It takes a lot of effort sometimes. And of course it may lead only to more frustation. Although when other posters see you making an effort like that, some will pitch in.

....you shouldn't also have time to post a knee-jerk reaction that has nothing to do with, or completely misunderstands the poster's comments.

mind if I press you for further explanation :^))

People misunderstand each other all the time. Thats why it take the effort I am talking about. We all have limited time and patience, I am just saying that its up to you to decide whether to continue a conversation that started out badly or move on to another one. There is no magic bullet and DU is a big tent kind of place.

P.S. Hope you weren't talking about me! :)

....This is what frustrates me. Ok, let's say I post something -- maybe I don't express my idea in a way that makes sense to you, or maybe I seem to contradict myself somehow, and this upsets you.

--

Ok, so you write back with something like, "I can't believe this!! You're bashing the troops!" or "You're making excuses!"

If I then respond and try to explain what I mean, or see if there is some misunderstanding and STILL just get back from you that I'm being a horrible person by what I said -- the discussion is obviously nonexistant, and never had a chance to become functional.

So, if people have the time to tell me how abhorant my ideas are and have time to get into a mindless back-and-forth exchange which goes nowhere, why don't they likewise have the time to entertain the possibility that MAYBE there's something else behind the statements that strikes them as odd...?

No, this has nothing to do with what you said...it's the people who have time to be close minded and argue in a non-productive way, but don't have time to go beyond their thinking that bug me.

For some reason, it's on my mind today.

and I know what you mean. Thanks for starting an interesting thread, and don't let 'em get you down. ;-)

Remember the 3 white men that dragged a black man to death behind there pick up truck in Texas....

Now aren't the mutilations in Falluja and the murders in Saudi Arabia rather a striking similarity to those actions.

But you didn't see the Black Panther's descend on Texas indiscriminately shooting innocents with snipers

..or question, is why is it so difficult to even approach topics that are more complex like this? It's almost like there is resistance to it -- and understandably so.

My point is not to get into a discussion about the torture in Iraq, it's more to discuss the environment of debate and exchange on DU.

as those pure disillusioned folks has brought an influx of disruptors. Also I have seen discussions about those from CU (Conservative Underground) infiltrating the boards.

As a viable medium for discussion and political action we have lost a lot of ground. When discussions arise that could and should have an effect politically the disruptors just start posting ridiculous threads about trivial topics to bury a substantial thread.

Its a shame it is happening but you have to use common sense and discerning mind to weed through it

or can we? I agree with your point - and it's a problem that's systemic in this country, so we're going to meet it at every level.

All too often we are bombarded with opinions.

I have to plead guilty of this myself as some times i like to cruise the board being sarcastic toward the Bushitas. If you want intelligent discussion perhaps you should put "intelligent discussion only" at the bottom of your post.

The DU boards also serve as a release of the frustrations of living with the Mis-administration

Your point about people blowing off steam is well taken -- and by no means have I ever been the paragon of perfect behavior.

For me, it's not establishing what are "facts", but understanding one's logic and thought process. None of us have or ever will have all the facts. Regardless of someone's views, whether I agree with them or not, I want to understand them. And if I see an honest attempt on someone's part to explain, explore and think I hope I ALWAYS am open to that.

Dismissiveness is very damaging.

here is an over all of what it says


The Toltec Nagual (Shaman) don Miguel Ruiz offers his apprentices these four simple yet profound agreements as important tools on the path to personal freedom. Anyone can use these wonderful tools to break their self-limiting beliefs and agreements from the past and transform their lives into a new experience of freedom, true happiness, and love. These new agreements have the potential to help you move your attention from wha8t the world thinks you "should" do or be to what you know is right for you, reclaim scattered personal energy and power, and open up to a deeper intimacy in personal relationships.

Be Impeccable with your word. Our words, our thoughts, and our feelings all contribute to the creation of our reality. Our word is a two-edged sword, it can create or it can destroy. To be impeccable is to create with conscious awareness and love. The human mind is fertile ground for the seeds that are our word. Plant the seeds of love, not fear. Judging, blaming, shaming, and especially gossiping create poison in ourselves and others. This agreement alone is enough to break all of our old agreements and change the dream of our life.

Don't Take Anything Personally. Other people's reactions and opinions are simply other people's reactions and opinions. They are having their own experience and none of it has anything to do with you—it does not make you wrong, guilty, bad, unworthy, famous, loveable, or important. You only take them personally when you agree with their poison. If you are "triggered" by someone or they "push your buttons," they have touched a wounded place in you. Become aware of the emotional wound they have exposed for you, be grateful for their help, and take responsibility for your healing of your wound.

Don't Make Assumptions. Our minds have the need to "know." When we don't know, we make assumptions--they make us feel safer than not knowing. To imagine that you know what someone else is thinking is an assumption. To imagine that you can know or control the future or another person's actions is an assumption. Expectations are assumptions. In making assumptions, we create our reality without respect for another's truth or experience. To avoid assumptions, ask questions. It takes courage to trust the present moment, to allow other people to be exactly who they are, and to let life unfold according to its own plan . . . and it avoids a great deal of suffering

Always Do Your Best. Your best changes from moment to moment, sick or well, tired or rested. Remember that you are an imperfect human being. We can extend to ourselves and to others compassion for our human-ness and reverence for our divinity. There is no value to judging yourself for "failing"--and no truth to it either. When you are not impeccable, when you take something personally, or make an assumption, you are still doing your best, and you are still a beloved child of Spirit. Agree to always do your best, with love and acceptance for the imperfect divine human that you are.

grinning over here. great little book.

just keep adding your voice to the discussion. whether this thread impacts/changes anyone's level of critical thinking or not, your posts/opinions will do the trick. IMO

btw, i NEVER ever wonder if we're any better.

and your advice is well taken!

about the Iraqi torture scandal pictures. And the "lockstep" attitude that we must think that these people are the worst scum of the earth is the same as the Right saying the terrorists are the worst scum of the earth, and ironically it's that attitude that allows an opening for torture in the first place.

A pang of feeling for the beasts is what sets us apart. Wanting to understand WHY those do what they do,after our initial revulsion and anger. How it can be prevented, how it can be stopped from happening again. That's what critical thought is for, and sometimes, that requires detachment.

A higher calling to understand- not just emote and react.(And I am the Queen of emoting because I think it's underated to not show our feelings in debate, but it's only part of what brings us to understanding)

...but am too tired to get into discussion with you ...hope we cross paths again and can discuss such things.

in advance.

in return to having a differing opinion. I spend a lot of time analyzing what it is that people are trying to say...on both sides. My best friend and I have very fuzzy grey ideas on lots of subjects, that doesn't mean that her version of fuzzy grey is black and white. I suggest that you could try doing what you suggest in reverse when you come upon a post that you deem to be made with black/white thought processes.