Malloy DOESN'T get it; Levin DOES

Okay, this is my first attempt at a defending-a-mainstream-Dem thread so be kind.

But listening to last night's Malloy rant, which was on the whole scathing and bodacious as usual, it was all about disgust with subtlety and all about the three-letter L-word. All pissed off that The Nine wouldn't say "Lie" in reference to Shrump's, well, lie about the Niger uranium etc.

But there's a point that everybody except me, Pepperbelly, Josh Marshall (thanks to me, actually), and LEVIN have apparently overlooked.

THE Niger-uranium cover story that the *admin is using is WORSE than (or at least as bad as) THE STORY THAT SHRUMP LIED.

Here's what Levin said, which earned him a scathing denunciation by the always-mostly-to-be-esteemed Malloy:

Well, there's been some very deeply troubling evidence that the intelligence has been stretched and exaggerated, and that's something which needs to be investigated. I've directed my staff on the Armed Services Committee to make a very in-depth inquiry into a number of issues, including this uranium issue. But Ambassador Wilson's statements this morning add a great deal of additional evidence to me, because now it's personal evidence from the ambassador that went there in February, the year before the State of the Union message, that, in fact, the documents were forged upon which that conclusion had been reached. And apparently, the State Department--if they didn't know it, we have to find out how in heaven's name the CIA kept that information in the bowels of the CIA, as Condoleezza Rice said.
(from John Warner's website, if you can believe it: http://warner.senate.gov/pressoffice/pressreleases/20030707.htm)

Look, scathing denunciations are fine. Malloy is a superb ranter. But don't nobody GET IT?

The WORST THING said so far has come RIGHT FROM THE MOUTHS of the coverer-uppers themselves. Look at it, dammit. They have admited a level of incompetence that is simply unconscionable and unbelievable a year and 9 months after 9/11. This wasn't some minor matter they lost track of (according to their alibi). This wasn't about some Ay-rabs taking flying courses in Florida or Minnesota and Who Knew Planes Could Fly Into Buildings. This was an investigation into a nuclear threat to the United States, an investigation be undertaken by a former ambassador. If they can't keep track of something like that--according to their own statements, mind you--then what the fuck ELSE have they lost track of that is of equal magnitude?

What Levin is doing--shrewd bastard that (I hope) he is, is taking them at their word. Everything follows from that. How can you not investigate this? It's your administration, George, and you say they LOST TRACK of this? Well, what the fuck HAPPENED then, good buddy? Somebody left it in their briefcase on the TRAIN? their DOG eat it? their daughter accidently fed it to her GOLDFISH? What?

Fine, rant away Malloy. But Levin has an angle that is politically much simpler and MUCH harder for them to wriggle out of with accusations of "partisanship" etc. than "He lied!" This is solid prosecutorial strategy. Go for the charge that you KNOW you can make stick--"Their words, not mine!"--and then use that as leverage to pull the rest out.

Of course it's a lie, Malloy. But the real question is...

How do you GET the bastards?

I agree with all y'all.

are correct. If we try to make the issue that they lied.......they will skirm out of it. But put in on the CIA not being capable of getting the info to the Mis-Administration......then that also opens the doors for more whistleblowers to come forward......and for Dems to push an investigation into why information was witheld from the Squatters in charge.

Much harder to stop that kind of investigation than to listen to the Repugs running around screaming that Bush Didn't Lie because he honestly though there were WMD.

Tony Blair is sort of getting away with telling everyone: " I believed there WERE WMD! I still think they're there.."
So the issue has become that no one except the Tories want to bring down Blair for something he "truly" believed and so the intelligence agencies and BBC are all fighting with each other....and Blair is clear (so far)

Hopefully, Levin and others are cagey and this is how they will handle exposing the squatters.

Going after Levin is just one of a long series of examples. If anyone wants to hate on Levin, he/she will have to do it without my respect. As for the rant about "lies", all the Americans who are going to connect those dots have connected them for themselves a long time ago--he has the same blindspot as Orwell.

in Mike's ability to defend himself with or w/out your respect.

he doesn't have to defend himself. For people who want to feel angry all the time, he has some value. For people who want original thought, I'm afraid he isn't the ticket. Everything he says can be predicted a mile or two in advance. :)

Ah yes, I keep forgetting the anger-addicts among us. It surely couldn't be that they have a reason to be pissed off, could it?

But anger should not be an end in and of itself.

:shrug:

Maybe I just don't understand your post...

the good guys. Unlike us, Levin will have to prove Bush knowingly lied. He has no room for error. If he gets caught saying anything off base the press will tear him apart and Bush will be off the hook.

Excellent way of putting it! Never thought of it like that, thanks!

In light of 9/11, the fact that they dropped the ball on an allegation of nuclear proliferation - for a FULL YEAR! You're right, that could be perceived as just as bad as lying about it. Either way they are damned!

but can't be said by a politician... yet.

but with the added pressure of a 'liberal with a mic' ranting and raving each day and passing the word, keeping the preasure on, maybe it won't take as long as normal diplomatic protocal procedures normally allow for :shrug:

peace

The demos do not have the political power, they are letting themselves hang themselves on their own petard.

As I have told Malloy, things are NOT as dark as he thinks, they were in February but there is light at the end of this tunnel...and demoratic coattails to boot.

I think that the fact that they are admitting something as dangerous as rank incompetence shows how utterly significant something is that they are covering up with this admission.

And remember the dog that didn't bark.

If I were Bush and this story was true ( :eyes: ) I would be FURIOUS that I was hung out on a transparent lie. Fucking heads would roll, maybe as high as Rice, Powell, Scummy, and Tenant.

But no heads have rolled.

Da nada.

Why?

Levin has got this son of a bitch by short hair and he's doing with a perfectly straight face when he laments about how dreadful it is that the info was buried in the bowells of the CIA. :eyes:

that "Facts change over time"? Yeah...as you lie more and more covering up the truth, they sure do! Who do these murderous bastards think they're fooling?

Very good analysis (a dilemma for bushsucks*, that is)

Well there is the matter of three trillion dollars the Pentagon can't locate for one thing.

It's almost a Catch-22. Should the Democrats come out and say Bush is a liar, even if it is the truth, they will get clobbered by the Piggiest Republicans and their re-energized Mighty Whorelitzer. What can the Democratic Nine do? They can stand back and appear objective and let Carl Levin take it to the BFEE.

Unlike Yossarian, Levin has succeeded in taking the legal high ground. First Levin says we should look at this apparent illegality — a president who has lied to Congress on a matter of war. Second, he brings in the witnesses involved and gets them on record — from the CIA to the Pentagon to the White House. Third he gets the facts straight and presents them before the public. Fourth, the public demands an investigation, creating the groundswell needed to boot the Little Turd back to Crawford. Fifth, Kerry's Attorney General brings the members of the Bush Organized Crime Family to justice.

The next thing I'd like to hear would be: "George Walker Bush, a jury of your peers has found you guilty of Treason and High Crimes while acting as (p)resident of the United States." What's the saying, John Ashcan? Oh, yeah. That would be justice.

...at least not yet. What matters is, how can we GET 'em? This approach affords all the opportunity--the NECESSITY--of calling in all the same witnesses for a "did he lie" investigation, but from the much more impregnable and high-road pretence of "why didn't he know (if he really didn't)?" In the process your whistleblowers and whoever can come in and say, Well but we DID tell them; or they can say, Well but we knew that if we told them they'd kick our ass and find someone else who would tell them what they wanted to hear.

This just seems like a much stronger pin to hang an investigation on--how can even the Replicants say, in public, that they don't care why a report on an issue of this magnitude managed to just go missing?

Mike Malloy is giving an outlet to frustrated and pissed liberals to vent. He should be focused on the outrage, that's what gets people fired up and active. He is not there to outfox the administration. He is there to scream the truth.
Both he and Levin would probably agree privately, but Levin, as DRBB stated, has to slowly review their own statements and soberly and camly, hang them with them.
I think Malloy would be wise to let Levin do this without making him seem like he's taking it easy on the chimpys, but I think there is plenty of room for them to do their own thing separately. When the truth comes out, they'll both look like heroes.
There are a lot of liberals who still get bored and disinterested with Senate hearings and government briefings, but tune in to Mike Malloy because he get them fired up. I don't think any of them are going to think less of Levin if his sound prosecutorial strategy works.
The right wing has learned that lively, long rants, that evoke emotions get attention.Malloy gets that. He is there to express the outrage on the left.
It happens here on DU too. If you see a thread titled "Bush visits Guam" or a thread titled "OMFG!!! Bush visits Guam!!!", which do you think is going to get the most views? Radio is the media. The media is sensationalism. The fact that we're correct, doesn't mean we can't shout about it.
I think someone should email Malloy about these ideas and see if he takes it to heart, or maybe call his show and help him understand what you think Levin is doing. I think he might like it.
Hmmm...Maybe I will, with credits, of course.

while the game is so in play. Clearly, Levin is playing the game at a level far above what Malloy understands. I have cautioned people here about similar urges, to get outraged when the facts are not even yet known.

I'm Shane from DC, I let Malloy know that I thought Levin was setting them up and the CIA would end up incriminating them with their own words.

Malloy said it was a good idea.

...but I was just listening to the archived version when I wrote this and may not have heard that last bit--were you after the break he takes just before the end? In any case, I'm glad you got the point on and I'd like to see Malloy give it an airing too.

And to many of the above--I fully understand and appreciate the need, the DESPERATE need for what Malloy does. He pushes it just as far as it will go and sometimes beyond. I don't take him to task for not looking at it from this pont of view--he is a provocateur and damn good at it. Like y'all say, not his job.

But I still think it's a valid point and I'm surprised that nobody with a media pulpit has tried it. I've sent three or four LTEs and a bunch of emails (including one to Levin, a couple of weeks ago--maybe he listened? Nah) about this. So far the only bite I got was from Josh Marshall/TPM. I'll keep pushing it....

This administration has a disastrous history of allowing important intelligence to sit in the "bowels of the CIA". Not much more needs to be said than that.

...not did he lie, but

how did they fail to connect THESE particular NUCLEAR DOTS too, hmmmm? Quite the little dot-connection problem we're admitting to here is it not? So long after the Event That (Supposedly) Changed Everything? With good ol' Condi leading the charge too.

I think it opens all kinds of very nice implications about and opportunities to point out and rehash their failures on 9/11, and threatens the whole He Protects Us From Terrorism edifice much more directly than "He Lied To Us." I think the fact that he lied would come out of course, but just in an even more damning context.

HE USED FIVE YEAR OLD INTELLIGENCE IN HIS DECISION TO GO TO WAR!!!!

Said it in answer to a question that Clinton used the same intelligence he had when he bombed Iraq in '98. If that's not criminal incompetence, NOTHING IS!

was a DU2 who called in at the 11th hour ,,,10 minutes before Midnight and explained it very eloquently to Mike and Mike listened and said that he hadn't thought of that,,,I was impressed by the caller and Mike for realizing what might be happening here..

My thought was if all you guys know and the caller explained it so well on the radio,,,who else is going to know and ,,,,it might not be such a surprise strategy?

I missed that bit at the end, more's the pity. But Shane has decloaked as the caller, above.

difficult it will be for Bonehead to extricate himself from it. Levin knew exactly what he was doing and friends, we have not yet plumbed the depths of what these yahoos are covering up.

and he did a very good job explaining to
Mike what he thinks Levin is doing. It was a great call.

:bounce: sgr2 rocks!


edit: typo