Could you still be proud of your democracy ?

The pictures of tortures in Iraq destroy the image of your country in the world and very many American people are ashamed... But, isn't it a clue of a healthy democracy that the US media are able to unveil them ?


The torture was a "normal weapon" for a part of the French army in Algeria. But all the French governments denied them until a recent time. Is our country less democratic than yours ? Perhaps.

... I suppose the inclination of the government would have been to hide the evidence, just as France did with evidence of same in Algeria. I imagine that at least some portion of the French press would have published the evidence had they received it.

Note that the Pentagon has issued a demand for all Pentagon employees not to visit sites with the written report, with reminders that the report is classified. So, this report and the photos were distributed without the government's approval, even though it is illegal to classify documents for the sake of protecting illegal acts.

In a way, though, the press in this country has seen this as sensational, rather than as proof of failed policies of the Bush administration, and in that sense, the press is behaving in the same way as they have to a Michael Jackson scandal or the Martha Stewart trial. Sensationalism drives American media today, unfortunately.

Sorry, but I've become very cynical about the press in this country--some have suggested (here and elsewhere) that if there were no pictures, the press would have been mostly uninterested in the text report, which is equally damning.

Cheers.

Ours didn't talk about tortures neither during the Algerian war nor for a long time after. It was a taboo.
Le Pen was a torturer and he is a French ultra-right wing politician for more than forty years.

But, then Le Pen didn't gain any substantial following until recently, did he? I think mostly of internal issues, such as the recent increase in crime in France and Le Pen's hard talk on that subject as improving his popularity there.

Nevertheless, I think that there are pockets in the American press which are doing their jobs--but the greater press is willing to obfuscate the issue while at the same time playing up the sensational aspects of the news, as I've mentioned.

Perhaps thinking about an entirely different issue with regard to the press is indicative of the problem. The matter of "free speech zones" and the arrests of peaceful protesters who stray into the view of TV cameras with an unwelcome message are entirely new with this administration, and the Bush administration's use of those tactics--even before 9/11--simply has not generated the level of outrage it should, because the press hasn't focused on it.

In like fashion, the administration has not been at all responsive to the substance of the complaints expressed. They have determined to ignore protesters and their messages. In the past, the press helped amplify the substance of those protests. Now? Just part of the day's news and then nothing more. Free speech protest has no demonstrable effect on the public debate if it's ignored.

But, watch the American news in the next week. My guess is that the focus will be on the few lower-rank individuals responsible. The upper-level officials who approved this policy will be interviewed, but not challenged in any way which might suggest they are ultimately responsible. The story will get out, but not in a way which will put the blame on those who created the policy. Rumsfeld and Cheney will get air time, but no genuinely overwhelming and damaging criticism. Douglas J. Feith, who is the likely architect of these interrogation policies, will not be investigated at all.

Cheers.

I would say that France, along with most other European countries, is more democratic than the United States. In the US, we have only two major political parties, a system which has evolved because in our elections the winner of a simple majority wins the entire election. Contrast this with the proportional representation of most continental European democratic nations, where the seats in the parliament or national assembly are apportioned among all parties participating in the election receiving greater than 5% of the vote. There is much more diversity of opinion in most European politics as a result.

The US, on the other hand, has two parties both of which represent the same interests overall, with some difference of opinion on social legislation and public morality. US politics are very much right of centre, for the most part.

And the UN ranks the US #18 in the category of freedom in media, for what that's worth.

But, for instance, I'd like to see one of our presidents testifying in a Parliament commission about any French state affair. The deputies could be waiting for him during a long time.

israel? where i believe torture is legal.
"In fact, tens of thousands of Palestinians who have served time in Israeli prisons and detention centres see striking similarities between Israeli treatment of Palestinian prisoners and American treatment of Iraqi detainees."
http://www.english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C182D988-28E3-4D48-ADFC-F15D6509B0EC.htm

I'm a retired psychiatric social worker. (Early retirement due to injuries from auto accident on the job.) I live near a small village. Yesterday I went to get coffee filters, and saw an odd fellow that I used to work with. The media attention on the torture had brought up old issues for him, from years of abuse while in youth facilities. I know this fellow's history, and what he was saying was real, though it happened 25 years ago. Abuse in these detention centers, as in county jails and state prisons, is more wide-spread than most people realize. As a general rule of thumb, the person(s) at the top set the tone.
In our country, the persons at the top are, of course, bush, cheney, and rumsfeld. They have set a tone, and all that we see happening in Iraq is their doing. They took the world on this course, and in a way, it is their responsibility to resolve this crisis.
Yet we know they lack the moral capacity to do that. And we are a democracy. Our job is to be the guardians of democracy. Our job is to remove an immoral dictator from office. And it's really hard work. But it is the only option we have. It's strange to think that 25 years ago, our country was actually in much better shape in terms of democracy, than it is today. We have our work cut out for us.

A total MORAN like Rush and Shawn!

get rid of them in November, because our ability to investigate and expose things like this will rapidly be lost.

I hope to regain pride in my country as we vote out as many Republicans as possible. If only the votes are counted.