I Would Like To Hear From Other DU Vets (Civil If Possible)

OK Veterans at DU, here is the scoop.

The photos of the torture (and yes, that is EXACTLY what it is) are ripping this Veterans heart out. The worst is yet to come but I personally feel that I, and more importantly the world, need to see them. Yes, I realize what the world will think of our respective branches but the truth hurts. It needs to be seen.

IMHO (only), I do NOT believe that more of our vets will be harmed as a result of the images because I firmly believe that the Iraqi people KNOW FULL WELL what the U.S. has been doing to them (in prisons and in towns) for a long time. But I digress.

My emotions have been rather crazy since this story broke. Personally I was not that surprised because, having served in a combat unit (even in peacetime) I know what is ingrained (my unit anyways) and seeing pics of "Kill Them All" on a tank barrel is nothing new. Seeing the photos of the torture however is NOTHING I could have ever imagined. Tears stream down my face as I type this.

As a side note, I remember my military training and I believe the INHERENT problem is that I was NEVER TRAINED to INVADE a country unless they were a direct threat to the U.S. Riding through Baghdad with a human skull atop a tank turret, in a country you are theoretically trying to "HELP" doesn't make any sense to any of us and as a Spec4 armor crewman, I don't recall discussing that possibility.

How are other DU Vets handling this? Are you still proud of your service? I am proud as HELL of the soldier(s) who blew the whistle, that much I know. I do NOT believe these were "6 or 7 soldiers who did this" cause we ALL know better. It isn't every soldier over there but I know DAMNED well the mentality of a LOT of NCO's and hell, even some CO's. You know the ones I am talking about.

Anyway (again) DU Vets; How are you handling this?

thanks.

Those kids didn't just do this. They did it because they
were told to do it. They had orders and they followed them.
Not excusing. Explaining "how this could have happened."
I want the chain of command held accountable.

US Army, 1982-1985.

I was in a support group but during the time that I was stationed in an isolated place (Guam) and watched my friends fly off into danger every f-ing day, I "got with the program" and got about as gung-ho as anybody...

I can feel the mentality slipping into the military consciousness in Iraq. I understand it. I don't condone what happened in that prison (or any other camp for that matter) but I know good and well how it could happen. That is why I consider this to be a complete lack of leadership. It's the job of leadership from NCOs on up to keep the troops doing the "right thing". It didn't happen here.

I think it's even worse that the "either you're with us or against us" mentality was instilled from the very beginning. That means that the leadership failed from the White House to the NCOs.

USAF: 1970-72

of my service. This did not happen by accident it was systemic. That means it was condoned by superiors. There is no excuse for this behavior. The responsibility for this goes right to the top. That means Shrubco. We can't expect this congress to do the right thing. We'll just have to wait for next year and hope there are enough people ashamed of this admin. to dump them in Nov.

close enough to know what you are talking about...and feeling...and I send my love Matt.

I'm not a vet myself but every male member of my generation of my family (including my beloved baby brother) and several of the females are. I can't say I know how you're feeling...but I'm sending along all the love and hugs I can. :hug:

no, not the lilly one here in the States, but a national society where we actually went into harms way...and from time to time filled up reports that went up the chain, and at times to the ICRC... don't ask more, please

At one level this has not been shocking at all. Hell I know it is going to get far worst, and that the US has entered a storm that most have no clue just how large it is.

At another level my stomach is in a knott. I remember September 11 for another reason... while most were watching the towers falling I was on line trying to explain to people that pure unrestrained vengeance was going to do irreparable damage to this country....

Then I saw the transformation in front of my eyes, the same transformation that occurs in most country going through the insanity that is war.

As to the armed forces, I am proud of my hsuband, a Navy Vet, it was not him who did this... but I am ashamed of a system that allowed this to occur... and the blame, well as you said we know where it is... The President, here I said it.

I was medical, so I had a Geneva card - perhaps I heard more about the convention than others - can't say.

What I recall is that the Geneva convention HAD to be learned AND followed because your actions in wartime were decisive in predicting how your fellow American's would be treated if they were POW.

I also recall being in a hot sweaty classroom, struggling to stay awake on 3 hours of sleep, and hearing instructor discuss the procedure to follow or question a lawful order. His explanation was that if you are in that situation where it has to be questioned its better to be safe than sorry. In other words - you will face a Courts Martial for your action either way. If you do what you are told without question, but it is unlawful, you will face a CM. If you don't, and you respectively question, or if once you voice you are forced, then the law will be on your side.

For those reasons I am ashamed of the soldiers. They knew what they were doing. They know right from wrong.

I am pissed off that the system condoned the behavior when they wanted the prisoners broken down. Now that there is trouble, it saddens me to see the high ranking NCOs and Officers, not to mention the civilians at the Pentagon and the WH turn their back on these kids.

I am pissed that my two nephews in the military - one having done a year in Iraq, now heading to Afghanistan for a year - are going to be targets for the anger of the occupied.

Hang in there, Matcom, as this washes out reform simply has to occur, heads gotta roll, and we will see integrity returned to the military.

U.S. Navy 1979 - 1992. However DAILY I weep with shame for what this country has become. Heads need to roll all the way up the Chain of Command, I am willing to bet the sumbitches will call it done once they court-martial the enlisted perps. That ain't right. I am sick and tired of what ain't right.

It is ripping my heart out, too, to see what our Fellow Servicemen have become now that Old American Values are dying out swiftly.

Of course, undoubtedly similar things happened in Vietname, so this is nothing new. HOWVER, not only isn't that an excuse, SOMEONE should have known that if you are coming to "liberate" someone you don't replicate the sins of the Tyrant you are supposedly liberating people from.

But of course, we all know that "liberation" of Iraq is as much a sham and lie as the Soviet "liberation" or Afghanistan was in 1979.

Having said that, YES I am still proud of my service. I also don't believe it was 6 or 7 soldiers and I also believe the Guilty Higher-Ups will walk easily, not even be investigated, because Imeprial Amerika has NOTHING to do with Justice.

Nothing at all.

I am ashamed of this situation, I am saddened by what our military is forced to do in the service of a Lying Invasion. I am distressed that Bush's business partners in al-Qaeda are being allowed to regroup and strengthen (on purpose? seems VERY possible).

I feel bad that Soldiers, most of whom signed to defend the Old Republic, not Bushevik Financial and Political Interests, ae forecd to behave like Bushevik Nazis.

It is NOT the military, per se (I know, I know, even at it's best the military is far from perfectly moral), but the Imperial Tyranny that now is "trickling down" it's immorality on the soldiers.

Though I have taken all of my decorations and put them into a wooden box. I was going to get a shadow box made, but at this point I would'nt take much pride in displaying it.

What bothers me the most is that I spent 13 years on active duty, went to Desert Storm, truly believed in defending the Constitution,
and I find that the "people" that I would have defended aren't worth the effort.

I know that these six were not the only ones involved, the policies came from the top, from the Penatagon itself. The former commander of Gitmo was present during the time when these crimes were being committed and did nothing. LTG Sanchez placed an MI Colonel in charge
of the prison over a MP Brigadier General, which was unusual.

Am I proud of my service, yes of my service. Am I proud of what is happening now in the name of the American people, no. I am proud of the troops that blew the whistle on this, I'm also worried about their
safety.

What makes me angriest of all is that this adminstration is only apologizing because the evidence of war crimes committed by US Army personnel came out into the light. They knew, and hoped that they could keep it under wraps.

But as is usual in the US military, the lowest ranking troops will be punished, the commissioned officers get off with a slap on the wrist,
and the CIA and their hired mercenaries run and hide in the dark corners, just like roaches when you turn ther lights on, and will never be brought to justice.

US Army 1978-1991

it comes and goes but its there.

thanks

You earned your decorations, so keep 'em. Being a member of the military is no shame, regardless of the shit that's being accepted by our current administration. You know why you were decorated, and you know DAMNED well why you deserve the accolades.

Keep them. And know that most thinking people hold you in high esteem for your honorable service.

that allowed this guy to occupy the office, and that doesn't make an effort to control their own government;
and to the corrupt politicians & Supreme Court Justices that paved the way;
and to the corporate interests that owns him.

And to the individuals who actually committed or directed these crimes.

But not to the soldiers who serve honorably.

Not a vet here, but you know what? We are all in this together now. Time for our nation's future to be re-earned.

At least I can go to bed tonight knowing that I didn't sic an attack dog on someone's balls to get my jollies. There are degrees. Being ashamed for one's country isn't the same as being ashamed for one's own actions. I hope the villians responsible for these atrocities are haunted each day until they die. That's the least they deserve.

is trained regarding the limitations of the Geneva Convention. The fact that this ADMINISTRATION suspended these rules speaks volumes. "They're not POWs, they're detainees..." They were made well aware that the "rules" don't apply.

Don't get me wrong: The soldiers that are in trouble SHOULD know the line between treating people like prisoners and treating them like animals. They should. They're also trained to NOT follow illegal/immoral orders. I'd say that only an idiot of the highest order would not realize that siccing attack dogs and shoving broomsticks up asses would qualify as "illegal" or "immoral".

No. They didn't think of these tortures on their own. Their guilt lies in committing these atrocities, and their shame is recorded for all of history. The "few bad apples" defense that the RW likes to trumpet is total bullshit. Had these pieces of crap been ordered to follow the Geneva Convention, they probably would have. Leave the rules obscured, and you get the treatment that we have all seen.

Yeah, they ARE "bad apples", but the ultimate blame lies in the upper echelon. How far UP is still to be determined.... In my opinion, the buck stops with Rummy, Ashcroft, and Bush.

As policemen often say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

and knew full well what was going on. As a former vet I do feel the troops in the photograph are being blamed foremost and though that was very wrong, I want to see those in charge paying as well.

So, no pictures of dead babies though. Guess that won't get them in the heart like these do. These men are being treated worse than animals going to slaughter.

As a former sailor myself I still remember the morning I left for boot
camp... a 19 year old kid scared to death going to a place far away from home. I remember the look on my mom's face the first time she saw me wearing that uniform, she was so proud of her first son and I was so happy to see my family.

I still remember the guys on my ship, the guys that I spent 3 years with... I remember their faces, their good habits, their bad habits. Those guys were like brothers to me and at times I missed them dearly.


This whole war fiasco has been so tough on me since the first day, I feel so bad for every single innocent person involved in this madness that sometimes the emotional pain is very hard to handle.

The last couple of months has been very tough on me, The siege of Falluja was very painful and now this torture situation really hit me hard. I feel so ashamed about our leaders that words cant described that
but in the other hand I'm extremely proud that I served my country with dignity and honor.



United States Navy Veteran
1991-1995

glad you joined us. thanks for your words.

welcome to DU and thanks for posting

these horrible images that are coming out. I hate to say it, but at times the military is a microcosim of society as a whole. This could be a good case study of what happens when one human being has absolute power over another. It also could serve as a wake-up call for every neo-con, Rush immitating hate monger that spends 24/7 to de-humanize an entire demograph, or class of people.

To me, this is a top down problem. I may be naive, but I would hope that most military personnel are aghast to see this deplorable example of degradation. Remember, this whole episode is seeing the light of day because of one brave soldier who had the guts to stand up and say "this is not right".

The closest I've come to combat was when the ship I was on had a turret explosion, plus several close calls with fires and flooding aboard ship. I can't speak for the folks that have actually had to dodge bullets and shrapnel.

I think my new favorite qoute, and one I would like to see JFK use in every speach and ad is "The military should have a government it can be proud of, not the other way around"

One thing is for sure. You won't get a lot of responses from the neo-con chickenhawks that have never served a day of active duty in their lives. They just create the messes. It is up to the everyday soldiers to clean it up. It's time we give the military a government they can be proud of.

US Navy 1969 - 1973

Nothing I write here is intended to excuse the behavior of the individuals involved, nor of there immediate superiors, nor of anyone in the chain of command all the way up to the White House. Courts martial should be held, sentences handed out, lives and careers ruined. People who are responsible should suffer and those who are guiltless will suffer too.

That said, I am not surpised at the events that have been revealed nor that there is worse to come. All the class time in the world won't prevent these kinds of events. I've said it before in posts on this site - it's a war and unconscionable behavior occurs in wars. The way to prevent the behavior is to prevent wars - once the war is underway expect abuse and torture - you've put people in a situation where those things come naturally - don't be so amazed when the pictures appear.

Yes, it can be prevented. It can be prevented by the very kind of thinking and organization nearly everyone here distrusts - unit cohesion, loyalty, obedience, honor and duty and the sheer luck of senior leadership (>= O6) that arrogantly refuses to yield to the forces that lead to the abuses. Unfortunately, those are the same things that lead directly to the abuses if the leadership is absent or the military organization is weak.

So, how am I handling it? I mourn for yet another generation of young men and women who will learn these lessons. I mourn for the country and its people, Iraq and the United States, when the events that teach the lessons occur. I scratch my dog and pray.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

and there is no way anyone can excuse this behavior(Rush, Hannity et al). I served in the Marines for over 8 years and personally handled EPW's when I was 19. I never once saw any abuse nor even thought of dishing it out to an unarmed prisoner. The reasons were because most of us had morals and also our command would have never tolerated such heinous actions.
The abuse in Abu Gahraib took place because it was systematic and tolerated by the command structure. Everyone involved from top to bottom should be prosecuted and punished.

First the pics. There's no doubt in my mind that an orchestrated effort is underway to persuade the major newspapers, newsmags and news nets NOT to publish any more photos or flix. The excuse will be that they needlessly anger Arabs and place our troops in greater danger. Of course that will be BS, because the pics will be published elsewhere in the world--especially the Arab media--and will be all over the web. But Joe and Mary Sixpack will not see them unless they buy the National Enquirer. That's a prediction.

Now the Deja Vu.

This really doesn't surprise me at all. It depresses the hell out of me, but so does the entire freaking war.

When I was in Nam (68-70), I was all too aware of the racist attitude that prevailed among nearly all GIs toward the "gooks", "dinks", and "slopes" we were there supposedly to save from communism. Though redneck-ism hadn't yet been identified, there was clearly a redneck attitude of "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

What's worse, there was absolutely nothing done to discourage this attitude. Even among my friends who were officers up to the rank of Lt. Col. this was the predominate attitude. When I brought it up to a group of chaplains one day (all officers, different denominations), I was told they could not say anything about it in Sunday services because "the Colonel (i.e. the chief chaplain in the Div) would blow a gasket!" In other words, the US Army wanted to encourage a deliberate attitude of racism so as to feed a vigorous aggressiveness among GIs. That is what is still going on today.

I remember bitching about this at the beginning of this war, and got all kinds of hell from recently serving GIs about how they are now trained to be civil when dealing with civilians. Well, I don't buy it. There is always going to be intense pressure from the top to produce greater results. That translates to increased aggressiveness down at the bottom.

The fault here rests at several levels. But we all know it will never reach above the rank of Cpt., unless of course they want to offer up a woman general as a sacrifice to the great gods of machismo.

The only answer is to beat these rotten bastards running this Bush regime in November. If we fail at that, we deserve a fate much worse than this disgrace. And we shall most assuredly receive it!

told him that i had reflected on my Basic Training (i.e. Boot Camp) experience.

know what i figured out? racism was ingrained into me. WHEN? when i was 7 minutes into a 15 minute push-up marathon and my body was ready to die. we had phrases we would scream out to 'motivate' us. they were 'taught' as a means to overcome great physical pain.

we associated those primal screams with the pain we felt. it was like something out of 'Lord of the Flies'

in rhetrospect it was fucking scary.

think about it.

In Nam some of it was blamed on the fact that people were given the choice of jail or service. There was also the fact that the average age of the combat soldier in Nam was 19. I've seen pictures, heard stories, seen ears, and witnessed some inhumanity. I did my best to keep it under control and I have a clear conscience. I thought the new Army was supposed to be a little better. When you think about it though, the calling up of Reserves and the Guard is a de facto draft. The thing that bothered me when I first heard these stories was that some of these perps would turn out to be police and corrections officers in the real world. Sure enough this has turned out to be the case. I think this is an aspect that has not been given enough thought and attention. Given the quality of the media, it is not a surprise however.

In Nam some of it was blamed on the fact that people were given the choice of jail or service. There was also the fact that the average age of the combat soldier in Nam was 19. I've seen pictures, heard stories, seen ears, and witnessed some inhumanity. I did my best to keep it under control and I have a clear conscience. I thought the new Army was supposed to be a little better. When you think about it though, the calling up of Reserves and the Guard is a de facto draft. The thing that bothered me when I first heard these stories was that some of these perps would turn out to be police and corrections officers in the real world. Sure enough this has turned out to be the case. I think this is an aspect that has not been given enough thought and attention. Given the quality of the media, it is not a surprise however.

....this misadministration does could ever dent my pride in my service.

I remember back about '87-'88, the county sherrif's dept. where my hometown is, went through a huge shakeup when the sherriff and several deputies were caught in civil rights violations including beating confessions out of people etc. Ultimately, everyone involved went to prison including one of my childhood friends who was one of the deputies.

I was troubled about my friend so my Dad, in his earthy, pragmatic way said "If you have a viscious pack of dogs running loose, you're going to find out it's because they have a viscious leader."

His words have been running through my mind ever since this torture story broke. We can't let the most viscious dogs get away with this crap.

and I thank each of you from the bottom of my heart for speaking out about this. Thank you for your service to our country, and thank you for having the courage to speak out when you know we've made a mistake.

As long as we have Americans like each of you in the service we'll be ok in the long run.

to torture someone also. It wouldn't be poor defenseless prisoners though. Is that what America has come to. Attack a poor defenseless country strictly because it is defenseless and then round up all the people and torment them beyond decency and all the while listening to Rush telling us we must do anything and everything to defeat the enemy. I am so ashamed of my country. These soldiers deserve some punishment but the real punishment should be for the propaganda masters and the entire Bush* Cabal for creating an America so crass and abhorrent.

thanks for the responses so far

please keep in mind that our troups have been under the impression that they are fighting "terra" (not). They have been MADE to believe that Iraq is responsible for 9/11. They were told Saddom had WMD's. With this mindset even I, wife, mother, grandmother, career oriented female could do bad things to those (innocent) people. If that were drilled into my brain every day and FOX was my source of news/information I shutter to think what I might do just to protect mine. You, my friend and others serveD your country. You can be proud, as a lot of our service men should be. You did what you thought to be right. To all Vets: STAND TALL and BE PROUD cause we are PROUD OF YOU.

As in Trickle Down Insanity! And writing your congressman won't help because, they think the troopers are just blowing off a little steam! At least that's what Old SGT Tom "The Rock" DeLay And X cheerleader Trent Lot think! Why don't we send the Cheerleader Squad to take the next hill? Heart Breakers and Kickback Takers POST! "Move out Smartly" is something they might have a problem with because there ain't a canteen cup full of brains in Camp GOPer! "Attention" might be hard for them Devil Dogs too! GW Klink will lead the Charge of the day and the uniform of the day will be pink tutus! Careful and don't break a nail or a sweat Boyz!

Well I didn't curse, but I sure wanted to!

Please sign the petition to demand needed safety gear and equipment, and proper medical care for our troops at war.



To: President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld

As Americans, we all stand united with respect and admiration for our men and women in uniform. But after recent reports from the frontlines in Iraq and Afghanistan, we are concerned that our troops are not receiving the kind of unconditional support they deserve.

We call on you to immediately provide maximum protection for our troops under fire in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to end any delays in maximizing their personal safety as they put their lives on the line, every day, for us.

Specifically:

We call on you to provide an immediate status report to Congress and the American people, detailing the most significant types of threats to the personal safety of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the actions that must be taken to immediately mitigate these kinds of dangers, including providing armored vehicles, personal protective gear, medical care, or any other remedy.

We then call on you to provide an emergency appropriation request to Congress for any and all funds necessary to provide our troops with every form of protection for their safety, as identified in the status report.

We believe that every American, presented with a comprehensive status report and call for action, will stand behind our men and women in uniform, in a spirit of patriotism and shared sacrifice, and will support any immediate and extraordinary measures to identify and eliminate any threat to their personal safety that can be promptly remedied through bipartisan executive and legislative action.

SIGN THE PETITION HERE

My heart goes out to all of them and all of you. Thank you.

into the Army. Aug/1970-March/1972. I was a medic in Germany. Medics were not exactly known for being gung ho or for being "with the program." One of the other posters talked about his buddies. I too remember the guys that I was in with. Whereas Germany was a whole lot better place to be than Nam, we still felt a special bond. It was us in Germany, trying to get by and back to the "real world" as we called it. I just don't have any answers. I wish I did. I just know that I am very sad about the whole thing.

it is VERY tough i can tell you

as long as we allow that unelected, incompetent, moronic piece of SHIT to stay in office. The pictures are a disgrace to the military, a disgrace to America and in the case of Ms. England a disgrace to WOMEN. Bush Inc, just like with everthing else they control, has trashed and abused and misused our soldiers in the worst ways. Nothing excuses the actions depicted in those photos but SOME BIG F***ING HEADS BETTER ROLL both in the military AND in Bush Inc.

As for what's to come, honestly, I knew ten years ago when they were running that f***wit Bush for governor of Texas that what they were REALLY doing was priming that f***ing idiot to be president. I knew America would be in trouble but I never imagined stuff as disgusting and despicable as what I know now.

NOTHING will make me feel better about America UNTIL WE RUN THESE THIEVING BASTARDS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE. I want my country back.

:loveya:

thanks

:hi:

The problem with the Army is that it's like everything else. Corruptable individuals can get in just as honorable ones. Nott eerybody is honorable...remember Rummy is an american too. :scared: It's a microcosm of America. The photos are indefensible, and I have to believe that they were either told to do it, or had a serious lack of supervision. I'm also appalled that these lowly enlisteds (which doesn't absolve them for what they've done) are going to take a fall for what is amounting to be a serious problem with the chain of command, all the way up to *.

sorry. my emotions are too much right now. thanks for the reply

HOW do you treat another PERSON that way let alone an ANIMAL????

i couldn't do it. i make no excuses

My guess is that private corps were in charge of untrained reservists and that led to the problem.

When I was in the Army the civilians were only working for their companies and not doing anything that was the work of the military.

I was drafted and never wanted to be in the Army so I can't really say that I am proud of my service.

But I hate the idea that what is going on in Iraq will tarnish all the service men and woman.

that's it folks.

All the rest of them were wars of imperialism or challenges to our established imperialist conquests.

Even "the good war" - WW II, US business interests were double dealing with both the Nazi's and the US gov't.

I served in the US Navy. Was young with a mind full of propaganda that the US stood for good versus evil. Then I began to read about US involvement in Latin and South America. The merging of corporate interests with gov't and military. I read Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky and Michael Parenti and I connected the dots of class warfare, calss struggle and corporate dominance of news and gov't.

I served in a military whose job it was to protect private corporate interests disguised as "national interest"

Am I proud of that? No.

a complete and total breakdown of the chain of command. The enlisted folks who claim they weren't properly trained, is quite frankly a load of bullshit. As we say down here "that dog don't hunt." Ignorance is no excuse, and just basic human dignity would dictate a more humane treatment. I'm baffled that they felt they needed to be trained in basic human compassion.

I know for a fact that before my unit deployed for Bosnia, and my other unit for Afghanistan right after 9/11, we received a fair amount of training on LOAC (laws of armed conflict) and the Geneva Convention as it related to the handling of enemy combatants. Now mind you, this was two separate units in two separate branches of the military. We were also specifically talked to about the handling of prisoners by our senior commanders--they both mentioned that if they found out about any mistreatment, we would be dealt with harshly--expect to go to jail was the message we got, loud and clear. It was a big deal for our chain of command, so it was a big deal for us.

That's why I feel the immediate chain of command is at fault. They either ignored what was going on, or they implicitly approved of it. Now the personnel comitting those heinous acts are just as guilty, because in our training we were also told about how we were OBLIGATED to DISOBEY an unlawful order. Apparently, only one person had the moral courage to do that.

My final thought about the chain of command breakdown was a comment I saw from Gen Karpinski, when she said something to the effect that the blame was not hers alone--the blame also lays with Gen Sanchez, the three-star that is her supervisor.

Again, bullshit. It was her command, she was the day to day commander, it was her primary responsibility and obligation to make sure that her prison system was being run in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. One thing as an officer we're taught is to take responsibility of what goes on in your command, and what you have authority over. Her pass the buck attitude, to me, speaks volumes on the type of commander she was. The fact that the officers are only walking away with written reprimands and the enlisted personnel look like they'll face a court-martial and jail is almost as outrageous as the pictures themselves.

They all need to be held accountable, for they are all equally at fault. Karpinski's court-martial should be first, IMHO.

And yes, I am proud to wear my uniform, because I do not feel that this is a reflection on the whole military, because the vast, vast majority of military personnel finds these acts heinous, vile, and disgusting. It is a stain on the honor of those who serve with dignity, and it is a stain on those who went before us.

It is not condoned as a whole, and is not tolerated in most places.

Unfortunately in Gen Karpinski's command, it was.

thanks

Hospital Corpsman 1st Class.
USN/USMC 1979-1985
USNR 1985-1992

These "people" weren't even wiping their own asses when you rode a tank and I rode a chopper.

These "officers" weren't even middies or 2nd looies when we were there back in "the day."

You and I have as much in common with these "NEW" soldiers as caviar has with a lump of lard.

What we did was MASSIVE, and PROUD, and VITAL. There is no shame in what we did and nothing in common with what "they" did.

Fuck them. OORAH for us. Semper Fi, Bro (even though you ain't one of Mother Marine's Green Machine, ALL REAL grunts are Bro's.)

Rest easy with a clean conscience.

Proud of the Marine Corps always, this crap was sanctioned by the vulgar little illiterate in the white house and his enforcer Cheney, enlisted men and women will take the brunt of the blame, but we all know who is responsible, we need to clear this infestation of vermin out of our White House.

sorry. feeling worse than last night

PEACE

who left college early to volunteer to go to war in WWII missed this episode. He would be appalled. He was pretty much against the first Gulf War - as it appeared to be, to him, contrived. He would have been very much against this adventure. And he would have been very shocked by these actions done in the name of the US military.

financial or otherwise, I know I would line up to help.

I know that I was taught as an SP (Air Force version of MP) what was legal, moral and how to refuse to follow an *illegal* direct order. I'm sick over this. I'm not handling it well. A chickenhawk colleague started that "having sex" nonsense over reported but unreleased pictures. I had to walk out to avoid simply screaming.

I've had my fill of this out-of-control situation. Skulls on tanks, "kill 'em all" painted on vehicles, torture, rape, what the hell is next? I shudder to think but not for one damn moment do I believe that this was anything other than *systematic* --- the command ranks there are breeding this attitude and allowing these atrocities.

I'm sick and, although that souless crew at DOD and the WH are not: I'm ashamed. For the first time in my life, I'm throughly ashamed to be an American.

who still believe in the illegal invasion of a sovereign country that we had no reason to invade.

I am ashamed of the troops who get by on "just following orders" IF they knew the rules of Geneva, and I do not believe they knew, or were trained for POW work.

I am ashamed.

I am proud to have served, and served honorably. I did not serve in a combat-related unit, but in support, and I feel like I served with men and women who would never have followed these "orders". Punishing 6 or 7 line troops? Bullshit. Punishment should start at the top.

USAF 1975 - 1979.