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INCREDIBLE Wes Clark Article in Washington Monthly on Iraq

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 10:44 PM
Original message
INCREDIBLE Wes Clark Article in Washington Monthly on Iraq
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.clark.html

It is very long (so I'm not excerpting), but well worth reading. It is about historical precedent, the fallacies of comparing the fall of the Soviet Union with the situation in the Middle East, and Where We Go From Here in Iraq.

DTH
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh boy
will read... thank you.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. WESLEY K. CLARK IS MY PRESIDENT!!! U WES A!!!
U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. DTH -- I was just about to post it
Here was my posting:

Wow. Just read a great article by Wes Clark in which he goes toe-to-toe with the neocons and dismantles them one point at a time. Written in heavy thinktankese (speak wonk to me Wes!), nearly every paragraph contains a crucial, often overlooked, insight. Points from memory:

* Why supporting democracy in the Middle East means running away from George W. Bush's policies.
* Why immigration is our best weapon in the War on Terror.
* How the neocon misunderstanding of the Reagan legacy "led to an almost unprecedented geostrategic blunder".

It goes on and on. Please, Kerry, put this guy on the ticket.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow!
This is an awesome article! He talks about PNAC and the neocons upfront while detailing the colossal errors bush has made regarding Iraq and the Middle East! The man is brilliant. Thanks very much for the link!
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. Further inducement to read it
Edited on Mon May-10-04 10:55 PM by troublemaker
I'm snipping these two paragraphs as a teaser--they lay out the scope of the essay:

President Bush's approach to Iraq and to the Middle East in general has been greatly influenced by a group of foreign-policy thinkers whose defining experience was as hawkish advisors to President Reagan and the first President Bush, and who in the last few years have made an explicit comparison between Middle Eastern regimes and the Soviet Union. These neoconservatives looked at the nest of problems caused by Middle East tyranny and argued that a morally unequivocal stance and tough military action could topple those regimes and transform the region as surely as they believed that Reagan's aggressive rhetoric and military posture brought down the Soviet Union. In a March 2002 interview on CNN, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, one of the main architects of the Iraq war, argued that the moral judgment that President Bush made "very clear, crystal clear in his State of the Union message" in which he laid out the Axis of Evil is "exactly the same kind of clarity, I think, that Ronald Reagan introduced in understanding the Soviet Union." In a speech last year, Defense Department advisor Richard Perle made the comparison even more explicit: "I have no doubt that has the vision that Ronald Reagan had, and can envision, can contemplate change on a very large scale in Iraq and elsewhere across the region."

This dream of engineering events in the Middle East to follow those of the Soviet Union has led to an almost unprecedented geostrategic blunder. One crucial reason things went wrong, I believe, is that the neoconservatives misunderstood how and why the Soviet Union fell and what the West did to contribute to that fall. They radically overestimated the role of military assertiveness while underestimating the value of other, subtler measures. They then applied those theories to the Middle East, a region with very different political and cultural conditions. The truth is this: It took four decades of patient engagement to bring down the Iron Curtain, and 10 years of deft diplomacy to turn chaotic, post-Soviet states into stable, pro-Western democracies. To achieve the same in the Middle East will require similar engagement, patience, and luck.
(and repeating link for those too riden with ennui to scroll back up. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.clark.html )
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Simply brilliant!


He sees the world so clearly and more than that, he is a uniter NOT a divider.

:bounce:
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. I changed my sig tonight, DTH
A quote from this article. :D
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Damn!
That's well said.

I'll save the whole essay for tomorrow when I can savor it better, but that one quote you selected fantastic.

Thanks you, Wes. Thank you WesDem and DTH for sharing.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. WESLEY K. CLARK IS MY PRESIDENT!!! U WES A!!!
U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!U WES A!!!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
68. Well where is your sig??
Somethin must a broke Jersey. :)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. Kick, this is too good to drop so quickly!
:kick:
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. This man is brilliant!
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Meyers, Wolfowitz, Perle and all the other neocons in this administration should be forced to read this article.
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Sopianae Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. He gets it!
"Democracy can come to a place only when its people rise up and demand it." You gotta love this man! :loveya:

I grew up in Hungary and went to high school there during the late 80's. Everything he says about why and how the Communist governments fell in Central and Eastern Europe (and in the Soviet Union) is right on the mark.

I still can't believe the sheer STUPIDITY of the neocon approach to the Middle-East. :shrug:
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Well it's probably the least intelligent administration in history
Bush, obviously, but Cheney ain't so bright either. He flunked out of Yale. Twice, I think. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith - vicious, ruthless idealogues, rigid, with tunnel vision. That's not intelligence. Whoever thought Bush was going to surround himself with competent people was dead wrong.
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Welcome to the DU, Sopianae, and
thanks for your insights!
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Bush_Sucks Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. Wes Clark for VP...
With his military backround, he looks very good for VP...
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
65. sec. defense. or state.
kerry needs edwards to sex it up. wes is good, but too much military.

this can't be won by trying to out-macho the pukes.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Wes Clark has international credentials from being SACEUR...
so I don't see this as trying to out-macho the repubs but rather having someone that can reign in the Pentagon, begin to repair the horrendous damage done to the US reputation by bush and his gang. Kerry has the domestic expertise, Clark has the international expertise, both will be very badly needed before even more harm is done to the US, politically, economically and militarily.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. The truth, the whole truth (almost), and nothing but the truth
This is essential reading for anyone who wants to deepen their understanding of that kind of disaster the PNAC cabal has created and still see some way out.

I stood (alone) for Clark in my precinct caucus - not because he is my Utopian ideal (Kucinch is much closer), but because I thought he was not only sufficiently savvy, and also decent and honest enough, but further has the creds with Europe and the Muslim world (via Kosovo) and the fear-driven US citizenry to make the changes needed.

I was a bit put off more recently by the "now that we're in it we need to succeed, more troops" sound bytes that he (and Kerry) had been quoted on recently, but this essay really goes to the core and the essence of the strategic way out.

And he even calls for something like Kucinich's Dept. of Peace:
"But I also believe there is a need for a cabinet- or sub-cabinet level agency designed to support and evaluate the kind of political and economic development efforts that can prevent later crises and conflicts. This will require substantial budget authority as well as research, development, and operational responsibilities."

My advise to Kerry, take this guy on and make him co-president. Kerry is great on domestic issues, he understands the costs of war, but Clark brings a clarity to this catastrophic war and the international strategy for a way out that Kerry has not yet shown.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Yeah
I think the thing about "more troops" that Kerry/Clark aren't highlighting and should be is that they're supposed to buy time for a political solution and not try to achieve a military victory. Maybe there's some strategic reason for downplaying this, but I wish they'd make it more central.

Back on the piece, it's kind of spooky. This guy sees current events with the clarity that only a few people have when viewing *history*. Co-president or no, I'm praying Clark's voice is heard in the Kerry administration. So often when someone understands the trap they're in, they can tell you all the things they should have done to avoid falling into it. Clark can do that and see how to get out. I really hope someone is listening.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Never thought of it quite this way
But this is exactly it.

"This guy sees current events with the clarity that only a few people have when viewing *history*."
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
14. Kick.
:kick:
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. kick
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. It is an excellent article....
and Clark is an excellent prophet. He sees it before it happens!

John Kerry....be courageous...and do the right thing! Pick the right man, i.e., Wes Clark.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
19. Kick
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. If any person has a friend or family member
who is intelligent, and wavering in their support for Bush ( ok ok, I know that may be an oxymoron)you should get this article to them.

The articles tone and structure reminds me a bit of when I was in college and famous lecturers were invited to speak. Clark is rather "professorial". He gives background and history along the way.

I especially liked how he wrote about the historical context. Not just the recent past, but how the Enlightenment didn't reach the Ottoman empire. The roots of our problems in the middle east are deep...and not something that can be easily solved.

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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. Nancy.....did you hear these speakers at Dale Hall?
If so, we might have been sitting next to each other and didn't know it. The late sixties and early seventies were interesting times on college campuses.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. Damn
Yes. I fell down the steps in front of Dale Hall once. I was mortified. All the guys would sit on the ledges and ogle the girls.
What I think was so different then was that although things were terrible.....protesting and civil disobiedence was FUN. I wasn't afraid at all that something bad would happen to me...I would worry that Ashcroft would get me now.
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. The anti-war protests were exciting and in some ways fun to go to,
however, it all seem to change with Kent State. Once that happened, I felt the entire mood became much more serious. Perhaps from my standpoint, it also might have been due to the fact I had just been re-classified 1-A with a very low lottery number and unlike Bush wasn't able to get into the national guard. It all started becoming a little too real for me.

As far as ogling at the girls at OU...wonderful pastime. For some reason it made me think of one famous girl on the OU campus during the late sixties......Wendy Berliwitz(sp)and the time she burned her bra on campus corner. Unfortunately I missed that event.

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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
21. Question for Military People
Do you reckon Clark thinks like a military guy? To me he sounds like a diplomat or statesperson. Often when I watch the News Hour or whatever and hear a military officer comment on world affairs, it only takes a few sentences before I realize that this person's outlook is fundamentally and perhaps intractably militarist. But Clark doesn't come off like that. Not that he doesn't think deeply about power, or strategically about US power--of course he does--but he doesn't sound militaristic. What do you think?
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. LIke a truly great one
Yes, this is the way really great four star generals think. There are no more great generals then there are great philosophers or artists, though, so we shouldn't be surprised when so few can think and write as well as Clark.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
76. Lots of generals end up that way
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
22. Wow. Great article. Great thinker. Great understanding n/t
.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. John Kerry has to use this guy to help our country.
in some important capacity...
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coda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. kick/Thanks DTH
:kick:
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. Okay, I've decided
Edited on Tue May-11-04 07:53 AM by HFishbine
Clark would be acceptable. (I'll trust in Kerry to bring him up to speed on the Fourth Amendment.)
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. I don't understand what you mean about the fourth amendment
Seriously.

FYI-

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/004923.html

- talkleft asks: You have criticized the Patriot Act. Which portions of the Patriot Act would you ask Congress to repeal and why? As President, how will you protect our civil liberties while trying to ensure our safety?

- I will suspend the portions of the Patriot Act that have to do with search and seizure law, and we'll go back to old way with probable cause and judges and warrants, and then we'll take the whole act back to the Congress for legislative review. We will have all the authority we need to protect the country from terrorists, but you can't win the war on terror by giving up the very freedoms we're fighting to protect. Wes

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Acxiom
Edited on Tue May-11-04 08:29 AM by HFishbine
It's been hashed and rehashed here over and over again, but Clark's lobbying on behalf of Acxiom for CAPPS II, the airline passenger screening program that would establish surveillance dossiers on the traveling public and utilize profiling for the purpose of un-warranted detention, shows an insensitivity to the rights guaranteed by they Fourth.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. I am well aware of the hash and re-hash
I also know by your post that you didn't read up much on Clark's role in the Acxiom business. Whatever....glad you find him acceptable.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Au Contraire
I became quite familiar with Clark's role in lobbying for Acxiom. Not sure what part of my post you think is ill-informed.

Clark was caught completely off guard on this issue during one of the primary debates. It was indeed one of his poorer moments. If he gets the VP nomination, he damn well better have a better understanding of the public's concerns about his activities lest he subject himslef to another humiliation.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
41. You Mean The SAME CAPPSII Stuff Gore's Commission Recommended?
Again, what was YOUR candidate's policy proposal to deal with insufficient passenger screening?
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. LOL
I've had my fill of red herring, thanks.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Red Herring? Actually, This Is On Point. As Is Fact That Clark,
by ALL accounts was concerned with civil liberties.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Please
I've come to the conclusion Clark would be an acceptable VP for this voter, don't inslut my intellegence by pretending there aren't flaws. Clark was concerned with civil liberties while advocating for their violation. He was concerened with them the way Bush is concerened with clean air.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. Actually, Clark's lobbying Acxiom
Had everything to do with the Fourth Amendment. But you know that by now.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
52. Thank You, HFishbine
Edited on Tue May-11-04 01:33 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
We disagreed plenty in the past, but I appreciate you keeping an open mind, and I am really glad we are all on the same side now! :-)

DTH
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. That's how it works, I guess
Edited on Tue May-11-04 01:44 PM by HFishbine
You squabble, discuss, hope and sweat, and then see where you are. I'd much rather have Clark than Edwards.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I Hear You
We both worked our respective asses off for our first choices, and I respect that a ton. Now, here we are. It's good to be manning a trench with you. :-)

DTH
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
57. That's good enough for me!
Thanks for saying so.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
27. Brings tears of relief to my eyes to read this and realize
that there really are leaders in this country who are capable of careful, responsible, reasoned, intelligent thought and who could drastically change the downward spiral this country is in.

What a waste it will be if his talents and wisdom are not put to use in a very high position in Kerry's administration. Hopefully as VP.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
33. brilliant
How refreshing it would be to have an intellectual as VP, instead of the half-dead Machiavellian carcass we have now.

Clark seems to be the leading surrogate for Kerry in the last month, he's been a heavy-hitter on the airwaves and this article seals the deal for me. I'd love to see him on the ticket (and if people don't think after he's picked that he and Kerry couldn't get NATO and Europe on board to get us off the hook in Iraq, they're deluded).

Thanks for posting this -

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democracy eh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Cheney isn't stupid
Edited on Tue May-11-04 09:02 AM by democracy eh
he is just DIABOLICAL.

wow Wes is amazing, wow wow wow
if he is not VP, he needs to be the SoS nominee and that needs to be announced during the campaign.
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
34. Isn't it amazing the intellectual difference between Clark and Bush
Most likely George wouldn't even be able to read it......

Great article from a great American.
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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
37. Dang, can't wait
to read this. Gotta run to my drone-job now though.
Bookmarking for tonight...
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:04 AM
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. GrovelBot loves Wes Clark
Don't you, cutie? ;)
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. He always did!
Wes Clark Grovelbot! :)
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
44. excellent essay
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
46. The difference between Clark and most politicians is that he knows...
what the hell he is talking about.

The rest just parrot talking points.
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
48. I can only hope somebody is listening to Clark!
His insight and clarity still blows me away. I DO hope that Kerry listens and actually applies all the knowledge Clark carries.

He's an asset to our party. Thanks, DTH for putting this up. I'd been missing you, BTW!


Laura
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Hey You!
I've missed you too! How goes the simming? :-)

DTH
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Tim_in_HK Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
49. It's excellent.
I already forwarded it to 5 friends.

He even gives some talking points and policy ideas for FREE to whoever wants them . . . hint, hint
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teevee99 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
58. the man is a genius.
amazing.
amazing amazing.
amazing.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
59. I read this article and thanks for posting it
it is very scholarly indeed. Makes me wonder just what Condi was doing that she could not figure it out--she is the expert in Russian affairs. Sounds to me like all of her expertise may have been less than.

One minor little picking point, which I probably am not qualified compared to this brilliant analysis- but, I must say, when Clarke quotes the Pope as enthusiastic in encouraging democracy all over the ME, err--well, it kind of made me think that perhaps the first place to begin would be the Vatican. Not a good example Wes.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. The pope reference is to Eastern Europe
"The Polish-born Pope John Paul II directed Catholic churches in Eastern Europe and around the world to encourage their congregants to lobby for democracy and liberal freedoms."

It is presented as just one part of the reason that the analogies between Eastern Europe and the Middle East are flawed. The point is that local religious institutions supported democracy in Eastern Europe, but are not doing so in the ME -- this makes the democratization campaign seem even more like outside meddling.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. well, I know where the Pope comes from
but the fact is that the Catholic religion is NOT a democracy.

When was the last time Catholics went to the polls and voted for the Pope? LOL

as well as the restrictions put upon women in that particular church

The Pope has no right to declare that democracy is the ideal when in his own house there is NO democracy and never has been.

and that is the case with most mainstream religions.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Islam is not a democracy
But the fact is if mullahs were going around agitating for it (and some are), it would have a much better chance of taking root.

I guess I'm not seeing the controversy. Do you not think this is true?

As for "has no right to declare", that's silly. I can think of no good reason the same standards of government should apply to church and state, and I'm pretty glad the pope can't, either.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. NO religion that I know of is a democracy!
nt
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Again, I don't see your point
Should people involved in religion not be allowed to agitate for democracy?
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
60. incredible
really. i just forwarded it to everyone i know.
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troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. Ignatz
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
61. Kerry/Clark
That's the sticker I want to have on my car this summer. :)
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. What excites me? A Cheney vs. Clark debate.....
Edited on Tue May-11-04 05:55 PM by GoreN4
..this fall. I would pay some big $$s, fly to where ever that event might be, just so I could see *in person* an hour-long+ Chicken-Hawk neocon vs. General/statesmen/patriot debate. Yes sir, now that would be an exciting debate to see Wes Clark deconstruct and destroy the Bush/Cheney/neocon Iraq "strategery."

John Kerry really needs to pick Wes Clark as VP, then we can begin the process of restoring US international stature, and hopefully put the military back its proper role - protecting the US Constition instead of Imperial subjects deployed for Global domination.

Yep, I'd spend $500 to go see Clark debate/deconstruct/destroy any and all nonsense coming out of Cheney's warped mind...:-)
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
71. Thank you! Nice zinger at the end - that's gonna hurt BFEE:
But if the events of the last year tell us anything, it is that democracy in the Middle East is unlikely to come at the point of our gun. And Ronald Reagan would have known better than to try.
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
72. That article was absolutely BRILLIANT
Our party, and more importantly, our country, is very fortunate to have this man in its service. I'll stand by that argument any day.

If Kerry gets a chance to read this on the ol' campaign bus, his search for VP is over.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. kick!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
73. Thanks DTH For This Superb Article!
Isnt' it beyond obvious that Wes Clark should be John Kerry's VP choice.

Crossing my fingers and holding my breath that it happens.

Thanks!
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. The "Q" factor
David_wasn't it you who once started a thread about Clark's "Q" factor? If so, I thought you'd like to know, I think of that post every time I read some media promoted dribble about how ho-hum Clark is.

Although I saw him more than once, I saw him perform at Penbrooke...It was like a Rock Concert. A Dance. I will not keep going on in this off thread mannor, but believe me, what you saw truly exists.

The article.

Read it.

Passed it on.

Clark has been advocating for something like the Kucinich "Dept of Peace" for years. Anyway it is in described in both books.

We haven't seen one like Clark since the 1700s. A reminder: Clark cannot be SoD--it's against the law; Holbrooke will be SoS--he wants it and as one of Clark's best friends, I'm sure Wes wants him to get it; VP or Clark will stay private but certainly there if we need him.
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argonne Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-04 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
79. Wes Clark for V.P.! n/t
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